Author Topic: A few simple questions for conspiracy theorists  (Read 174849 times)

Offline onebigmonkey

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Re: A few simple questions for conspiracy theorists
« Reply #210 on: April 16, 2013, 02:16:33 AM »
You know, I almost certainly had family killed by the Nazis.  (My great-grandmother was born in a Gypsy camp; she was allowed into the US, but her first husband and their children were not.  I assume they got a divorce or something, but she married my great-grandfather somehow.)  They probably didn't even make it into the camps; a lot of Gypsies were just taken out and shot.  Being compared to Nazis amuses me more than it infuriates me, because it proves that the person making the accusation doesn't know anything about me or Nazis.

Not in the same league of offensiveness as the Nazi comparison, but the "shill" line does the same for me. I do find it annoying that it is bleated out with such monotonous regularity and somehow means that the the person saying it has no need to bother with any other kind of answer, but if they only knew how much it completely demolishes their ridiculous argument.

I'm not sure what they imagine a NASA shill looks like, but I'm pretty sure it's not a long-haired nearly 50 grandfather sitting in his living room in the north of England with crappy TV in the background wondering if there really should be other things he could be doing with his time.

Offline Zakalwe

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Re: A few simple questions for conspiracy theorists
« Reply #211 on: April 16, 2013, 02:52:04 AM »
Its schoolyard name calling, by adults who should know better. It allows the callers to pigeon-hole their "opposition" and by doing so devalue their responses "Ohh, you would say that, you're a shill/NASA employee/sheeple"
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Offline Glom

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Re: Re: A few simple questions for conspiracy theorists
« Reply #212 on: April 16, 2013, 05:29:31 AM »
Its schoolyard name calling, by adults who should know better. It allows the callers to pigeon-hole their "opposition" and by doing so devalue their responses "Ohh, you would say that, you're a shill/NASA employee/sheeple"

And often ironic and it is those most keen to accuse others of following the herd who are often doing more uncritical parroting of their line. This applies to more than just conspiracy crackpottery.

Offline Noldi400

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Re: A few simple questions for conspiracy theorists
« Reply #213 on: April 16, 2013, 12:08:42 PM »
You know, I almost certainly had family killed by the Nazis.  (My great-grandmother was born in a Gypsy camp; she was allowed into the US, but her first husband and their children were not.  I assume they got a divorce or something, but she married my great-grandfather somehow.)  They probably didn't even make it into the camps; a lot of Gypsies were just taken out and shot.  Being compared to Nazis amuses me more than it infuriates me, because it proves that the person making the accusation doesn't know anything about me or Nazis.

Not in the same way you mean, but the Nazis certainly tried to kill my Dad and several of my uncles in combat.  They were unsuccessful, although they did manage to wound two of them.

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Not in the same league of offensiveness as the Nazi comparison, but the "shill" line does the same for me. I do find it annoying that it is bleated out with such monotonous regularity and somehow means that the the person saying it has no need to bother with any other kind of answer, but if they only knew how much it completely demolishes their ridiculous argument.

I'm not sure what they imagine a NASA shill looks like, but I'm pretty sure it's not a long-haired nearly 50 grandfather sitting in his living room in the north of England with crappy TV in the background wondering if there really should be other things he could be doing with his time.

I've said this before, but it seems to me to be a general characteristic of HBs that if you follow their line of... uh, "reasoning" it always leads to a patently absurd conclusion of one kind or another, such as...

The Soviets knew it was a hoax, but didn't reveal it because they were in on the conspiracy.

There were only a handful of the 400,000 participants who knew it was a hoax. The Mission Control personnel were fooled by fake data being sent to their screens - never mind that it would have taken a whole cadre of engineers to produce the fake data in the first place,  and wherever that big Saturn V went, some group of engineers had to program the flight, etc.

The reason there are so many mistakes in the photo record is that they were put there deliberately by technicians hoping to reveal the hoax.

And of course, the truly strange, such as:

We went to the moon, but there were ETs there who warned us not to come back.

The Illuminati... [your delusion here]

The reason the Apollo astronauts are so sincere is that they were drugged/hypnotized and false memories were implanted, so they really believe they went.

Etc, ad nauseum.

IMO, the notion that anyone who defends the historical facts of Apollo is a paid "shill" is just one more absurdity that they have to believe to prop up their otherwise unsupportable position.
"The sane understand that human beings are incapable of sustaining conspiracies on a grand scale, because some of our most defining qualities as a species are... a tendency to panic, and an inability to keep our mouths shut." - Dean Koontz

Offline Peter B

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Re: A few simple questions for conspiracy theorists
« Reply #214 on: April 16, 2013, 08:12:57 PM »
Wasn't there a story last year about a study which found that the people most likely to believe in conspiracy theories were people who'd engage in that sort of behaviour?

And, for the record, my father and his younger brother were both in the Australian Army in World War Two. They both enlisted shortly after the German invasion of France. Dad served first in Africa and the Syrian campaign, then in the Pacific. My uncle was in the Australian 8th Division and was captured at the fall of Singapore. He then survived more than 3 years as a guest of the Emperor, including working on the Burma Railway.

As I mentioned earlier, I don't resent being called a Nazi or a shill. As far as I'm concerned it says more about the accuser than about me.

Offline Noldi400

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Re: A few simple questions for conspiracy theorists
« Reply #215 on: April 16, 2013, 08:48:57 PM »
Wasn't there a story last year about a study which found that the people most likely to believe in conspiracy theories were people who'd engage in that sort of behaviour?
I seem to remember reading something about that.  My point, though, was that there doesn't seem to be any way to support a hoax theory without introducing something even more ridiculous.
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And, for the record, my father and his younger brother were both in the Australian Army in World War Two. They both enlisted shortly after the German invasion of France. Dad served first in Africa and the Syrian campaign, then in the Pacific. My uncle was in the Australian 8th Division and was captured at the fall of Singapore. He then survived more than 3 years as a guest of the Emperor, including working on the Burma Railway.

As I mentioned earlier, I don't resent being called a Nazi or a shill. As far as I'm concerned it says more about the accuser than about me.
Yeah, I can't say I'm particularly offended by it either. I regard it as just another ad hominem they go to when they can't handle facts.
"The sane understand that human beings are incapable of sustaining conspiracies on a grand scale, because some of our most defining qualities as a species are... a tendency to panic, and an inability to keep our mouths shut." - Dean Koontz

Offline smartcooky

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Re: A few simple questions for conspiracy theorists
« Reply #216 on: April 16, 2013, 09:14:00 PM »
Yeah, I can't say I'm particularly offended by it either. I regard it as just another ad hominem they go to when they can't handle facts.

Quite the contrary, I LIKE it when an HB resorts to name-calling and ad hominum attacks, because that usually means they have run out of stupid answers, and I've got them by the short, curly ones!!
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Offline Peter B

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Re: A few simple questions for conspiracy theorists
« Reply #217 on: April 16, 2013, 09:24:11 PM »
...My point, though, was that there doesn't seem to be any way to support a hoax theory without introducing something even more ridiculous.
Fair enough, and I agree entirely.

Again, just to be clear to the Hoax Believers who might be reading this thread, I accept the reality of some conspiracies. But when it comes to Apollo, I've never seen anyone come up with an explanation for a Hoaxed Apollo that makes sense; at some point every explanation becomes absurd or internally inconsistent.

Offline Echnaton

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Re: A few simple questions for conspiracy theorists
« Reply #218 on: April 16, 2013, 10:40:38 PM »
I certainly don't take personal offense at being called a Nazi. It is such predictable name and really deserve no response other than contempt.  For me, it is always taken as an (unintended) concession of the discussion based on the first corollary of Godwin's Law.  So like any polite person, I will acknowledge the concession and drop the discussion.   Albeit with some amount of hidden gloating inside and hopefully some objection from the other party. 
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Offline gillianren

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Re: A few simple questions for conspiracy theorists
« Reply #219 on: April 16, 2013, 11:15:16 PM »
Again, just to be clear to the Hoax Believers who might be reading this thread, I accept the reality of some conspiracies. But when it comes to Apollo, I've never seen anyone come up with an explanation for a Hoaxed Apollo that makes sense; at some point every explanation becomes absurd or internally inconsistent.

In the strictly legal sense, the Holocaust was a conspiracy.  It's not the kind HBs mean, but it was.  There are plenty of conspiracies of the secret kind, too; Watergate and Iran-Contra were secret government conspiracies.  Neither of them lasted very long, but they were real, secret, government conspiracies.  I don't deny their existence.  I deny that they are evidence that a conspiracy along the lines of an Apollo hoax could be kept secret.  After all, we know about Watergate and Iran-Contra, and both of them were given away in some pretty foolish ways!
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Offline smartcooky

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Re: A few simple questions for conspiracy theorists
« Reply #220 on: April 17, 2013, 04:02:06 AM »
Again, just to be clear to the Hoax Believers who might be reading this thread, I accept the reality of some conspiracies. But when it comes to Apollo, I've never seen anyone come up with an explanation for a Hoaxed Apollo that makes sense; at some point every explanation becomes absurd or internally inconsistent.

In the strictly legal sense, the Holocaust was a conspiracy.  It's not the kind HBs mean, but it was.  There are plenty of conspiracies of the secret kind, too; Watergate and Iran-Contra were secret government conspiracies.  Neither of them lasted very long, but they were real, secret, government conspiracies.  I don't deny their existence.  I deny that they are evidence that a conspiracy along the lines of an Apollo hoax could be kept secret.  After all, we know about Watergate and Iran-Contra, and both of them were given away in some pretty foolish ways!

Actually, Watergate is one of those conspiracies that shows just how stupid the idea of an Apollo Programme conspiracy is.

How many people actually knew about the wiretapping at DPHQ? Thirty, forty, perhaps fifty? It only took ONE to leak the necessary information to Woodward and Bernstein, and it was all over red rover!!!

So, what chance there wouldn't be a W. Mark Felt among the 400,000 if it was a real conspiracy.
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► Conspiracism is a shortcut to the illusion of erudition

Offline Peter B

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Re: A few simple questions for conspiracy theorists
« Reply #221 on: April 17, 2013, 07:55:23 AM »
And something else about Felt? He lived even though Nixon apparently knew he was Deep Throat.

Supposedly NASA goes around killing astronauts to make the rest toe the line about the hoax. But Nixon doesn't do the same with a guy who helped ruin his Presidency?

Offline geo7863

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Re: A few simple questions for conspiracy theorists
« Reply #222 on: April 17, 2013, 08:41:06 AM »
So, what chance there wouldn't be a W. Mark Felt among the 400,000 if it was a real conspiracy.

Frank Serpico blew the whistle even though the death threats against him were very real.

If the HB believe that there isn't one single person within the whole Apollo Programme  who has/had the personal integrity and courage that Frank Serpico had, then they do not have an understanding of Human beings at all.

Offline darren r

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Re: A few simple questions for conspiracy theorists
« Reply #223 on: April 17, 2013, 09:34:00 AM »

If the HB believe that there isn't one single person within the whole Apollo Programme  who has/had the personal integrity and courage that Frank Serpico had, then they do not have an understanding of Human beings at all.


Spot on.

There are two things all HB's seem to believe  - that they are the only people with courage or integrity and that anyone who disagrees with their conclusions is working for NASA.
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Offline Glom

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Re: Re: A few simple questions for conspiracy theorists
« Reply #224 on: April 17, 2013, 10:03:35 AM »

If the HB believe that there isn't one single person within the whole Apollo Programme  who has/had the personal integrity and courage that Frank Serpico had, then they do not have an understanding of Human beings at all.


Spot on.

There are two things all HB's seem to believe  - that they are the only people with courage or integrity and that anyone who disagrees with their conclusions is working for NASA.

And of course they are allowed to live.