Author Topic: Number '10' (maybe) in Apollo 11 Lunar Orbit TV transmission?  (Read 3192 times)

Offline onebigmonkey

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Number '10' (maybe) in Apollo 11 Lunar Orbit TV transmission?
« on: September 24, 2023, 05:20:02 AM »
Every so often the hoax crowd throws up something interesting, and this is one of them.

In an ABC TV special, the part covering the Apollo 11 TV broadcast from lunar orbit shows a couple of brief appearances of what looks like a number 10 (or possibly a letter 'O' with a line next to it).

Here's the broadcast:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yr9skyn6FRM&t=4320s

and the two appearances are at 1:12:40, and 1:13:26.

There's a better quality version of the footage here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rETmDu_U5hY&t=325s

but the number 10 isn't as clear thanks to the way the footage has been cropped.

My initial thought was that it's markings on the rendez-vous window, but I'm not so sure now: the font type and colour isn't right, (see the Apollo 9 views here https://historicspacecraft.com/Apollo_Capsules.html) and the window through which they're filming seems too large. It's also (unless it's off screen) missing the 'o' degree symbol.

The hoax crowd are claiming that it's on the surface of a model, despite it changing apparent location during the broadcast and staying a constant size despite different zoom levels. It's obviously something either on the window or reflected on to it (which to be fair some hoax proponents have realised), but what?

Any suggestions for likely candidates?

Offline TimberWolfAu

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Re: Number '10' (maybe) in Apollo 11 Lunar Orbit TV transmission?
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2023, 07:25:19 AM »
Seen this one, hadn't really given too much thought.

I've bounced with trying to follow the flight path over the moon, seeing if maybe there was a likely candidate on the surface (crater or something) but the brightness makes me think it's closer to the camera.

Do we know which window they were filming out of at the time? I know in some shots they have specifically said which window they were looking out.

Offline onebigmonkey

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Re: Number '10' (maybe) in Apollo 11 Lunar Orbit TV transmission?
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2023, 08:13:11 AM »
Difficult to tell which window it is as lots are referenced and they seem to take turns describing what they see regardless of who is operating the camera.

The transcript has them initially through number 5 window, but then there's this:

078:29:30 Aldrin: Houston, we'll be moving shortly from the side window to the hatch window, and we'll try and pick up some of the landmarks that we'll be looking at as we approach powered descent. Over.

But they don't appear to change view during this part of the broadcast. Before transmission they suggest the hatch window might be best, but note that it depends on the attitude of the CSM and they'll wait and see.

Later on they say:

078:43:20 Aldrin: We're moving the camera over to the right window now to give you Langrenus, its - its several central peaks and...

then

078:46:00 Collins: Crater Secchi is out my window now, window number 2. [Pause.]

which is after this part of the transmission.

It's definitely not any bright lunar surface feature - it moves position during the broadcast so it's obviously near the camera.

Offline TimberWolfAu

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Re: Number '10' (maybe) in Apollo 11 Lunar Orbit TV transmission?
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2023, 09:22:42 AM »
It's all good, a Mr Jarrah White is investigating!! We're saved!! Heh. Apparently 'Dr' Rasa can't comment, he's back in Facebook jail :)

On the bright side, he's been nice enough to identify the craters for us.



Offline Kiwi

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Re: Number '10' (maybe) in Apollo 11 Lunar Orbit TV transmission?
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2023, 10:12:28 AM »

...There's a better quality version of the footage here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rETmDu_U5hY&t=325s

but the number 10 isn't as clear thanks to the way the footage has been cropped.

In that video around 0:12:34 to 0:13:09 there is a possible candidate: A light-coloured metal ring and two rods that are not as bright as the ring, one on each side of the ring, leaning outward at somewhere around 45 degrees from horizontal.

At first there is just a jumbled bunch of equipment which is quite dark, but a few seconds later the lens is zoomed in a little and the exposure lightened, and the ring is clearly visible very briefly. It might be part of the antenna which Aldrin mentions:--

078:44:52 McCandless: Okay. It looks like you're coming inside now on the camera.

078:44:59 Aldrin: Well, I can't get behind to see the monitor. I'll bring the focus in, but we're going to be looking down past one of the LM quads and one of the antennas, almost straight down at the ground track that we'll be seeing coming in now. I guess there's maybe 2 or 3 minutes before powered descent. [Long pause.]

078:45:37 Aldrin: Alright, that should put the LM structure about in focus, and I'm going to move it out to infinity and then expand the field of view. [Long pause.]


At this time the antenna (if that's what we are seeing) is in shadow, but earlier when the "10" appears, maybe the ring is caught by sunlight, which might cause it to be reflected in the CM's windows.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2023, 10:19:55 AM by Kiwi »
Don't criticize what you can't understand. — Bob Dylan, “The Times They Are A-Changin'” (1963)
Some people think they are thinking when they are really rearranging their prejudices and superstitions. — Edward R. Murrow (1908–65)

Offline TimberWolfAu

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Re: Number '10' (maybe) in Apollo 11 Lunar Orbit TV transmission?
« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2023, 11:22:15 AM »
Hmmm could it be an RCS cluster on the LM? The LM is pointing at the lunar surface at this point, isn't it? But not straight down, as that's the issue Collin's was having in that the craft wanted to keep aligning itself with the lunar surface, while they were trying to keep it angled to keep the view out the windows? Seems a pretty likely candidate, they stick out from the body of the LM, meaning you're not likely to see the rest of the LM, and it is definitely outside the window, but near the CSM.

Offline onebigmonkey

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Re: Number '10' (maybe) in Apollo 11 Lunar Orbit TV transmission?
« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2023, 11:43:15 AM »
It's all good, a Mr Jarrah White is investigating!! We're saved!! Heh. Apparently 'Dr' Rasa can't comment, he's back in Facebook jail :)

On the bright side, he's been nice enough to identify the craters for us.




It's not that difficult to identify the craters, given that they name them in the broadcast!

He could even have gone one step further and conceded that those craters are more detailed in the Apollo broadcast!

To his credit, he (and a couple of others in his current sphere of influence) is quick to dispel the more stupid arguments on the grounds that they make them look dumb, so at least he's been honest enough to say "I don't know".

As for it being a reflection of an RCS thruster, I'm not convinced, but it's certainly a better suggestion than "it's a label on the model that was removed during the broadcast once they realised it was there", which some are actually claiming.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2023, 12:23:17 PM by onebigmonkey »

Offline TimberWolfAu

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Re: Number '10' (maybe) in Apollo 11 Lunar Orbit TV transmission?
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2023, 10:56:47 PM »
As for it being a reflection of an RCS thruster, I'm not convinced, but it's certainly a better suggestion than "it's a label on the model that was removed during the broadcast once they realised it was there", which some are actually claiming.

Oh I'll admit it's speculation, which is pretty much all we have. I think the likely culprit is something to do with the LM, Kiwi suggested one of the antenna rigs but I think the only thing on the same side as Aldrin would have been the S-band rig (assuming I've got the orientation lined up in my head right). Could be a reflection of something next to the window on the interior, they didn't darken the cabin for the footage, and the movement would look similar, if not the same, as something outside the window.

Pretty sure this will end up in the bucket of "they can't explain it so it must be fake!!"

Offline Kiwi

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Re: Number '10' (maybe) in Apollo 11 Lunar Orbit TV transmission?
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2023, 02:36:14 AM »
Hmmm could it be an RCS cluster on the LM? The LM is pointing at the lunar surface at this point, isn't it? ...Seems a pretty likely candidate, they stick out from the body of the LM, meaning you're not likely to see the rest of the LM, and it is definitely outside the window, but near the CSM.

Yes, I thought of that after posting here, then inspecting as many still photos as possible of the top of Eagle from inside the CM. It was after 3 am NZDT so my brain was fading, but I couldn't see anything near the top of the LM that looked like the ring in the video, and particularly not the VHF antenna at the top rear of Eagle.  There are still the S-Band and Rendezvous Radar antennas to consider, but the solid and bright, shiny appearance of the "ring" in the video reminded me mostly of the RCS thrusters. Lighting conditions at the time could have made the view down the nozzle of a thruster look like a ring from that angle if very little light got inside the nozzle.

Edited: Having previously looked at the still photos and now viewing the video again, I can understand what we are seeing. The entire sequence runs form 0:12:27 to 0:13:13 and the most relevant part starts at 0:12:54  when we get a close-up view of an antenna on the left and a bunch of RCS thrusters near top centre.

The concentric rings that form the thrusters' nozzles become more obvious at 0:13:07 when the zoom is adjusted and we are viewing just the light reflecting off the two nozzles at right angles to each other (the "rods" in my first post), and in between them but a little higher than dead centre is a front-on (or top-down) view of the single thruster that is facing the camera (the "ring").

So, do those particular views match the "10" in the first video?
« Last Edit: September 26, 2023, 03:47:42 AM by Kiwi »
Don't criticize what you can't understand. — Bob Dylan, “The Times They Are A-Changin'” (1963)
Some people think they are thinking when they are really rearranging their prejudices and superstitions. — Edward R. Murrow (1908–65)

Offline TippedIceberg

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Re: Number '10' (maybe) in Apollo 11 Lunar Orbit TV transmission?
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2023, 05:06:21 AM »


AS11-36-5403 was taken at a completely different time but it shows the LM RCS highlights can at least appear similar. It has a tilted "1" too.

Offline BertieSlack

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Re: Number '10' (maybe) in Apollo 11 Lunar Orbit TV transmission?
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2023, 07:56:17 AM »


AS11-36-5403 was taken at a completely different time but it shows the LM RCS highlights can at least appear similar. It has a tilted "1" too.

I was looking at that earlier. A reflection of that on the window seems the most likely candidate to me.

Offline onebigmonkey

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Re: Number '10' (maybe) in Apollo 11 Lunar Orbit TV transmission?
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2023, 11:40:33 AM »
I was sceptical at first, but it seems the most likely candidate.

There's certainly nothing obvious within the LM that could be reflecting on to the window.

Offline Kiwi

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Re: Number '10' (maybe) in Apollo 11 Lunar Orbit TV transmission?
« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2023, 07:31:57 AM »
Something I'd like to see on the contents page at both the AFJ and ALSJ is a list of GETs so that if we know when something happened and would like to know more, we can quickly go to the appropriate file. I had that problem when posting in this thread, so have made up a chart for the Apollo 11 Flight Journal with link, file title and start-and-end GETs, but have excluded the title so they fit across the page here.

Back about 2005-2007 I made charts like this for all the missions but some of the AFJs were only partly done and some didn't yet exist. If anyone would like copies, PM me with an email address and I'll send them off.

https://history.nasa.gov/afj/ap11fj/01launch.html   GET-002:25:40 to GET 000:14:43
https://history.nasa.gov/afj/ap11fj/02earth-orbit-tli.html   GET 000:17:38 to GET 002:53:47
https://history.nasa.gov/afj/ap11fj/03tde.html   GET 002:54:09 to GET 006:00:02
https://history.nasa.gov/afj/ap11fj/04nav-housekeep.html   GET 006:09:17 to GET 012:46:41
https://history.nasa.gov/afj/ap11fj/05day2-mcc.html   GET 022:50:15 to GET 028:42:31
https://history.nasa.gov/afj/ap11fj/06day2-tv.html   GET 029:32:09 to GET 034:37:16
https://history.nasa.gov/afj/ap11fj/07day2-laser.html   GET 034:41:42 to GET 036:53:11
https://history.nasa.gov/afj/ap11fj/08day3-africa-breakfast.html   GET 048:09:00 to GET 055:04:45
https://history.nasa.gov/afj/ap11fj/09day3-entering-eagle.html   GET 055:09:58 to GET 057:04:34
https://history.nasa.gov/afj/ap11fj/10day3-flight-plan-update.html   GET 057:17:48 to GET 060:51:39
https://history.nasa.gov/afj/ap11fj/11day4-approach.html   GET 069:10:24 to GET 075:19:02
https://history.nasa.gov/afj/ap11fj/12day4-loi1.html   GET 075:30:38 to GET 076:14:08
https://history.nasa.gov/afj/ap11fj/13day4-tv-orbit.html   GET 076:14:09 to GET 079:48:28
https://history.nasa.gov/afj/ap11fj/14day4-loi2.html   GET 079:49:21 to GET 080:35:30
https://history.nasa.gov/afj/ap11fj/15day4-eagle-checkout.html   GET 080:35:30 to GET 086:32:51
https://history.nasa.gov/afj/ap11fj/16day5-landing-prep.html   GET 093:32:39 to GET 099:29:16
https://history.nasa.gov/afj/ap11fj/17day5-undock-doi.html   GET 099:31:42 to GET 102:17:29
https://history.nasa.gov/alsj/a11/a11.landing.html   GET 102:15:02 to GET 124:31:07
https://history.nasa.gov/afj/ap11fj/19day6-rendezvs-dock.html   GET 124:29:17 to GET 128:05:22
https://history.nasa.gov/afj/ap11fj/20day6-reboard-lmjett.html   GET 128:05:36 to GET 133:45:38
https://history.nasa.gov/afj/ap11fj/21day6-tei.html   GET 133:49:44 to GET 138:08:24
https://history.nasa.gov/afj/ap11fj/22day7-leave-lsi.html   GET 147:47:11 to GET 153:53:59
https://history.nasa.gov/afj/ap11fj/23day7-tv-food-prep.html   GET 154:40:58 to GET 160:25:45
https://history.nasa.gov/afj/ap11fj/24day8-news-checks.html   GET 170:59:56 to GET 176:27:21
https://history.nasa.gov/afj/ap11fj/25day8-reentry-stowage.html   GET 177:08:35 to GET 182:08:16
https://history.nasa.gov/afj/ap11fj/26day9-approach-earth.html   GET 189:28:35 to GET 194:05:13
https://history.nasa.gov/afj/ap11fj/27day9-entry.html   GET 194:10:13 to GET 195:18:18
Don't criticize what you can't understand. — Bob Dylan, “The Times They Are A-Changin'” (1963)
Some people think they are thinking when they are really rearranging their prejudices and superstitions. — Edward R. Murrow (1908–65)

Offline jfb

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Re: Number '10' (maybe) in Apollo 11 Lunar Orbit TV transmission?
« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2023, 10:37:49 AM »


AS11-36-5403 was taken at a completely different time but it shows the LM RCS highlights can at least appear similar. It has a tilted "1" too.

That's exactly what it is.  The way it moves with the rest of the background as Collins moves the camera shows that it's outside the window, not part of it. 

Offline onebigmonkey

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Re: Number '10' (maybe) in Apollo 11 Lunar Orbit TV transmission?
« Reply #14 on: October 06, 2023, 06:21:07 AM »
Dean Talboys (who has an 'interesting' theory on how Apollo was allegedly hoaxed) has weighed in on the topic,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uWlwSnMRco

 claiming that the features are part of some sort of bleed effect of the starfield projection used on the various simulators, basing his theory on the appearance of some fixed dots that move around later on in that broacdcast. He neglects to explain how those alleged stars move independently of the lunar surface, why they move out of focus, and why there aren't any actual stars visible when the camera pans above the lunar horizon.

As part of making a page discussing this on my site, I decided to document every sighting of this feature, no matter how small, and came across this at the very start of the lunar TV broadcast featured in the ABC feature:



I think that is the clearest indication yet that we are looking at reflections off a physical structure.