Author Topic: Neil Armstrong (1930-2012)  (Read 51111 times)

Offline Al Johnston

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Re: Neil Armstrong (1930-2012)
« Reply #75 on: November 07, 2012, 05:21:47 AM »
He [Collins] was made CMP because Anders had never been up and Deke had an ironclad rule at that time that CMPs must have flown before.
Was that true even for the non-LM Apollo flights (7 and 8 )?

I can certainly see Deke's reasoning for the Apollo flights with LMs (i.e., starting with Apollo 9 as flown) as the CMP would be flying the CM alone for a time, and especially for those involving lunar landings as there was a finite chance the CMP would have to come home alone, but it makes less sense for flights without a LM.


It didn't hold for Apollo 7 - that was Don Eisele's only flight (Walter Cunningham's too)
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Offline Inanimate Carbon Rod

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Re: Neil Armstrong (1930-2012)
« Reply #76 on: November 07, 2012, 09:25:44 AM »
It didn't hold for Apollo 7 - that was Don Eisele's only flight (Walter Cunningham's too)

The Apollo 7 all developed bad headcolds and became quite grouchy with ground control, and this ended their careers, I believe. 7 was Schirra's last flight as he resigned shortly afterwards.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2012, 09:29:19 AM by Inanimate Carbon Rod »
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Offline Echnaton

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Re: Neil Armstrong (1930-2012)
« Reply #77 on: November 07, 2012, 02:57:38 PM »
My recollection was that the blow to Cuningham's and Eisels's careers was that they followed Schirra's lead in refusing to wear his helmet during reentry.  Schirra had already announced his retirement plans and had nothing to loose.   
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Offline Noldi400

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Re: Neil Armstrong (1930-2012)
« Reply #78 on: November 07, 2012, 05:34:35 PM »
Quote
Was that true even for the non-LM Apollo flights (7 and 8 )?

No, that was me being lazy because it was late and my post was running a little long. The rule did indeed refer to flights with an active LM.

Of course, that rule quickly fell by the wayside when Jack Swigert flew AS-13, followed by Roosa on "The Flight Of The Rookies".
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Offline Peter B

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Re: Neil Armstrong (1930-2012)
« Reply #79 on: November 07, 2012, 08:38:18 PM »
I found this video in youtube Neil Armstrong with Bob Hope entertaining the troops in Viet Nam http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UDZ5mQnvBg
Thanks for finding that. I didn't realise he (they?) went to South Vietnam after Apollo 11.

I assume Armstrong's lines in the 1983 show were written for him (but no less funny for that), but I'm pretty sure he was speaking off the cuff in South Vietnam, and showed a sly wit. The line about deductions from his pay obviously struck a chord with the soldiers.

But the other thing that struck me was what Bob Hope said from 18:00 onwards in the clip - he showed himself to be a genuine fan of science and engineering, and encouraged children to study them. I wonder what he'd think of the state of science education in the USA today...probably make some appropriate joke.

Offline ka9q

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Re: Neil Armstrong (1930-2012)
« Reply #80 on: November 09, 2012, 01:54:15 AM »
The Apollo 7 all developed bad headcolds and became quite grouchy with ground control,
In The Shadow Of The Moon (the book version) disputes this; Eisele caught Schirra's cold, but Cunningham never got sick.

The consensus among those active at the time is that Apollo 7 exposed a latent problem: the relative authority of the spacecraft commander and flight director were never really hammered out in advance. Schirra was Navy, and because ships tend to be isolated and self-contained, captains are traditionally given a lot of autonomy over their internal operations. Even when an Admiral is on board, he can only make suggestions about the operation of the ship because the captain is still responsible for it.

(Ironically, the very same guys on the ground who sparred with Schirra, especially Chris Kraft, insisted on a very similar rule for themselves. After some unpleasant instances during Gemini in which higher management tried to overrule a flight decision in real time, the flight directors insisted on having the last say, and the only way management could overrule one is to fire him on the spot.)

Apollo 7 was an initial shakedown flight that was expected to reveal problems to be fixed before committing to a much more dangerous flight to the moon. It just wasn't expected to reveal human organizational problems.

In Schirra's defense, the ground threw the first punch. He'd gotten a mission rule that they would not launch if the winds could blow the CM back onto land after an abort. Their CM had the Block I couches that could not withstand a land landing, and one could seriously injure or even kill the crew. The ground broke that agreement, and Schirra was furious. It went downhill from there during the flight.

I've noticed that in later Apollo flights, at least, the Capcoms invariably use language like "We recommend yawing right 10 degrees..." when the message sounds much more like a command than a recommendation. Were the Capcoms always this polite, or was it one of the subtle reactions to Apollo 7?



« Last Edit: November 09, 2012, 02:06:35 AM by ka9q »

Offline Commander Cody

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Re: Neil Armstrong (1930-2012)
« Reply #81 on: November 12, 2012, 12:06:42 AM »
Did you know that Armstrong actually doesn't want anyone to just think of him beng the first man on the moon, but he also wants people to know the rest of his life, and how he served the U.S army for example.
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Offline ka9q

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Re: Neil Armstrong (1930-2012)
« Reply #82 on: November 12, 2012, 12:08:54 AM »
Yes. He was known to ask when people were going to stop thinking of him as the 'space' man. I guess that was never going to happen.

Armstrong was also acutely aware that he was just the highly visible tip of the iceberg to the public, and he constantly gave credit to all the people on the ground who made Apollo happen.

Offline Laurel

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Re: Neil Armstrong (1930-2012)
« Reply #83 on: November 12, 2012, 11:51:39 AM »
It was the US Navy, actually.
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Offline gtvc

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Re: Neil Armstrong (1930-2012)
« Reply #84 on: November 12, 2012, 02:01:31 PM »
but at the end he worried about the space program and he was interested in a return to the moon to continue the exploration of the solar system  http://cosmiclog.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/08/25/13478643-astronaut-neil-armstrong-first-man-to-walk-on-moon-dies-at-age-82?lite

Offline Noldi400

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Re: Neil Armstrong (1930-2012)
« Reply #85 on: November 18, 2012, 12:55:07 AM »
Quote
I assume Armstrong's lines in the 1983 show were written for him (but no less funny for that), but I'm pretty sure he was speaking off the cuff in South Vietnam, and showed a sly wit. The line about deductions from his pay obviously struck a chord with the soldiers.

Oh, Neil absolutely had a quick wit when needed. Remember his response to Bart Sibrel's request that he swear on a Bible?  "Knowing you, Mr. Sibrel, that probably isn't a real Bible."

Ow.
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Offline ka9q

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Re: Neil Armstrong (1930-2012)
« Reply #86 on: November 19, 2012, 08:45:17 AM »
Ow? I laughed my head off at that line! Perfect.

Armstrong always seemed profoundly uncomfortable giving a prepared speech in public. So much so that he'd make me feel uncomfortable just watching.

His relative ease (and evident glee) at speaking that line to Sibrel proved he could be much better when given an opportunity to think on his feet.

Edited to add: It occurs to me that the ability to think on one's feet is very useful for an Apollo LM commander, no?

« Last Edit: November 19, 2012, 08:53:53 AM by ka9q »

Offline Kiwi

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Re: Neil Armstrong (1930-2012)
« Reply #87 on: November 21, 2012, 03:34:13 AM »
Oh, Neil absolutely had a quick wit when needed....

From the Apollo 11 Flight Journal:
http://history.nasa.gov/ap11fj/09day3-entering-eagle.htm
Quote
056:37:24 Armstrong: The traverse from the bottom of the LM to the aft bulkhead of the Command Module must be about 16, 20 feet. It's not a disorienting one at all, but it's most interesting to contemplate just pushing off from one and bounding on into the other vehicle all the way through the tunnel.

056:37:44 Duke: Roger. Must be some experience. Is Collins going to go in and look around? [Pause.]

056:37:56 Armstrong: We're willing to let him go but he hasn't come up with the price of the ticket yet.

056:38:01 Duke: Roger. I'd advise him to keep his hands off the switches.

056:38:08 Armstrong: If I can get him to keep his hands off my DSKY, it'd be a fair swap.

One book published in 1970 attributes the last line to Mike Collins, but following immediately in the AFJ:

Quote
056:38:13 Duke: Roger.

056:38:18 Collins: That's why I've been eating so much today. I haven't had anything to do. He won't let me touch it any more.

056:38:23 Duke: Rog. [Long pause.]
« Last Edit: November 21, 2012, 04:03:37 AM by Kiwi »
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Offline Rob260259

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Re: Neil Armstrong (1930-2012)
« Reply #88 on: November 21, 2012, 12:58:21 PM »
Quote
"Knowing you, Mr. Sibrel, that probably isn't a real Bible."


One of my favorites. Awesome, really.

Offline Noldi400

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Re: Neil Armstrong (1930-2012)
« Reply #89 on: November 22, 2012, 08:36:55 PM »
Quote
From the Apollo 11 Flight Journal:
http://history.nasa.gov/ap11fj/09day3-entering-eagle.htm


Quote

056:37:24 Armstrong: The traverse from the bottom of the LM to the aft bulkhead of the Command Module must be about 16, 20 feet. It's not a disorienting one at all, but it's most interesting to contemplate just pushing off from one and bounding on into the other vehicle all the way through the tunnel.

056:37:44 Duke: Roger. Must be some experience. Is Collins going to go in and look around? [Pause.]

056:37:56 Armstrong: We're willing to let him go but he hasn't come up with the price of the ticket yet.

056:38:01 Duke: Roger. I'd advise him to keep his hands off the switches.

056:38:08 Armstrong: If I can get him to keep his hands off my DSKY, it'd be a fair swap.



One book published in 1970 attributes the last line to Mike Collins, but following immediately in the AFJ:



Quote

056:38:13 Duke: Roger.

056:38:18 Collins: That's why I've been eating so much today. I haven't had anything to do. He won't let me touch it any more.

056:38:23 Duke: Rog. [Long pause.]

Actually, the AFJ credits the 'eating' line to Collins, which would make more sense...

The day before, Aldrin had (correctly) entered a program change into the CM DSKY. Mission Control presently figured out that it had caused the PTC deadband to collapse (not an immediate problem because Auto RCS was turned off).

Then, a couple of hours before the ticket comment, Houston was telling the crew the results of an oatmeal-eating competition in England, which set off the following exchange:

Collins: I'd like to enter Aldrin in the oatmeal eating contest next time.

CapCom: Is he pretty good at that?

Collins: He's doing his share up here.

Aldrin: I'm still eating.
. . .
Collins: He's on his - He's on his 19th bowl.


So the most likely interpretation is that Collins made the comment about "hands off my DSKY" and Aldrin responded with the "why I've been eating so much" line, referring back to the oatmeal conversation.

 


"The sane understand that human beings are incapable of sustaining conspiracies on a grand scale, because some of our most defining qualities as a species are... a tendency to panic, and an inability to keep our mouths shut." - Dean Koontz