Author Topic: M B Raja - hoax video  (Read 2588 times)

Offline Dead Hoosiers

  • Mercury
  • *
  • Posts: 8
  • Better a useless eater than a useful tool.
Re: M B Raja - hoax video
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2020, 04:11:29 AM »
Ok Jeff, I’ll try to be as nice as possible considering that you didn’t read my initial post with any particular care.  You read into it and jumped to a wrong conclusion--that I was attempting to debunk the moon landing.  I thought I had worded my post carefully (you have to around here) so as not to give the impression that I was a moon landing hoax conspiracy theorist (MLHCT).  I had searched the old board because I didn’t want to bring up something that had already been done, but mistakenly thought the author of that video had a different name.  I’d never heard of Seibel (because I’m not an MHLCT), nor have I ever watched more than a short clip on the “hoax,” again, because I’m not an MHLCT.  I would have been satisfied to have been told this Seibel guy had previously been debunked with maybe a nugget of info tossed in as to why. Jay Utah’s Clavius link was a goldmine I never expected.
As further proof that you were careless in reading my posts, I said I hadn’t posted here in 7 years, not that I have been posting for 7 years.  I left off due to the general incivility of far too many people here, as demonstrated by Zakalwe.  Do you think “jackanapes” is a bad word?  Is it worse than him calling me lazy no fewer than 6 times?  He apparently also thinks I’m a man—too lazy to read my profile I guess. He was in a hurry.  Why don’t you scold him or do you think it’s presumptuous for a newbie such as yourself to take on the task of chastising other board members in the name of a moderator?  From what I remember of LO, it would take more than my giving Zakalwe the little set down of which he stood in such crying need to issue me a warning.
Here’s some friendly advice from me.  Not everyone who asks a question is attacking you, and if you jump down their throats you deprive yourself of a teaching opportunity.  How far would you have gone in school if your teachers had treated you with such hostility when you asked a question?  .


Offline Dead Hoosiers

  • Mercury
  • *
  • Posts: 8
  • Better a useless eater than a useful tool.
Re: M B Raja - hoax video
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2020, 04:22:37 AM »

More relevant here would be the upcoming presidential elections in November.


What do you mean?

Offline Miss Vocalcord

  • Venus
  • **
  • Posts: 91
Re: M B Raja - hoax video
« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2020, 05:10:11 AM »

More relevant here would be the upcoming presidential elections in November.


What do you mean?
The reason for the retirement of James Webb on October 7 1968. James Webb commented on it himself:

Quote
Webb resigned his job as NASA chief in 1968, a year before the first manned lunar landing. The front pages reported that he was bitter about budget cuts by the Johnson administration, increasingly beset with the funding of the Vietnam war. Sen. Margaret Chase Smith of Maine claimed that LBJ had "pulled the rug out from under James E. Webb."

"It wasn't a question of money," Webb said, revealing a conversation with Lyndon Baines Johnson that gave him a bit of political foresight nine months ahead of the times.

"President Johnson told me in July 1967 that he wasn't planning to run for another term. Yes, he told me that. I don't know what he told other people, but that's what he told me. He also said he was telling Texas Gov. John Connally. And he said he was going to make a public announcement in August. But, of course, it took him until the next March before he actually did.

"I knew that whoever got elected, either Humphrey or Nixon, wouldn't be happy with me. They might keep me on, but not be happy. By resigning, I could at least show them that it wasn't child's play, what the nation was trying to do with these big rockets."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/lifestyle/1981/09/24/james-webb-and-nasas-reach-for-the-moon/253a284e-bdd9-480f-ae0b-19a96ca7d961/

(and just to be sure, the above quote is from September 24, 1981, twenty years before "A funny thing.." (from you OP) was released.)
« Last Edit: June 25, 2020, 05:12:36 AM by Miss Vocalcord »

Online Zakalwe

  • Saturn
  • ****
  • Posts: 1438
Re: M B Raja - hoax video
« Reply #18 on: June 25, 2020, 05:10:33 AM »
How dare you, you pompous little jacanapes? You interrupted my reading of Jay  Utah's in depth article posted above (which is actually very informative), and believe you me, no lazy person would undertake to do that...it would be too difficult, like asking questions instead of spewing boring, off target, hateful garbage. You didn't even have the wit to notice I was seeking information and didn't claim the video had merit.  That's because I'm not a scientist, so I turned to the scientists on this board for information. I don't know what you are. Well, actually I do, but I don't want to get banned for my first discussion in 7 years.

Oh diddums, did the nasty people ask you difficult questions when you were innocently JAQing off? Poor widdle you.  ::)

Now, dry your eyes and have a go at addressing the points in your narrative that have been shown lacking.
  • Do you now acknowledge that the claim that the astronauts resigned "shortly afterwards"? Just to help you, as you've evidenced that you struggle with simple research, Collins, Aldrin and Armstrong ll retired from NASA in 1971, years after "the mission". BTW, you do know that there was more than one mission?
  • The "never seen before footage" was from Sibrel's video that he released in 2001. It has been shown many,many times to be garbage.
  • There was no "reluctance to be interviewed"
  • "the way the whole thing was debunked" was not "believable". In fact, the only thing believable was the ease with which Sibrel's nonsense was debunked.
Start with addressing those and we can have an adult conversation.
"The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.' " - Isaac Asimov

Offline Obviousman

  • Jupiter
  • ***
  • Posts: 581
Re: M B Raja - hoax video
« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2020, 05:11:22 AM »
James Web (sp) resigning days before the mission
James Webb retired October 7 1968, his 62nd birthday, 4 days before the start of Apollo 7, which is not the mission.
More relevant here would be the upcoming presidential elections in November.

the astronauts resigning shortly afterwards,
"Shortly"
Yet another misleadingly vague term.

The Apollo 11 crew specifically retired "shortly" after their mission because they knew they would never be allowed to fly in space again.
They were national heroes, to valuable as symbols to risk their lives.

The same thing happened to John Glenn, where he was told quite bluntly that he would fly in space again because he was a national hero and they could not afford to lose him.

At least he got the chance again with the Shuttle.

The situation with Apollo 11 was pretty much like this: they were all too valuable to lose but Armstrong in particular. Collins was offered the command of his own flight but turned it down. To the best of my knowledge, Buzz wasn't offered another flight.

Online Zakalwe

  • Saturn
  • ****
  • Posts: 1438
Re: M B Raja - hoax video
« Reply #20 on: June 25, 2020, 05:26:21 AM »
Ok Jeff, I’ll try to be as nice as possible considering that you didn’t read my initial post with any particular care.  You read into it and jumped to a wrong conclusion--that I was attempting to debunk the moon landing.  I thought I had worded my post carefully (you have to around here) so as not to give the impression that I was a moon landing hoax conspiracy theorist (MLHCT).  I had searched the old board because I didn’t want to bring up something that had already been done, but mistakenly thought the author of that video had a different name.  I’d never heard of Seibel (because I’m not an MHLCT), nor have I ever watched more than a short clip on the “hoax,” again, because I’m not an MHLCT.  I would have been satisfied to have been told this Seibel guy had previously been debunked with maybe a nugget of info tossed in as to why. Jay Utah’s Clavius link was a goldmine I never expected.
As further proof that you were careless in reading my posts, I said I hadn’t posted here in 7 years, not that I have been posting for 7 years.  I left off due to the general incivility of far too many people here, as demonstrated by Zakalwe.  Do you think “jackanapes” is a bad word?  Is it worse than him calling me lazy no fewer than 6 times?  He apparently also thinks I’m a man—too lazy to read my profile I guess. He was in a hurry.  Why don’t you scold him or do you think it’s presumptuous for a newbie such as yourself to take on the task of chastising other board members in the name of a moderator?  From what I remember of LO, it would take more than my giving Zakalwe the little set down of which he stood in such crying need to issue me a warning.
Here’s some friendly advice from me.  Not everyone who asks a question is attacking you, and if you jump down their throats you deprive yourself of a teaching opportunity.  How far would you have gone in school if your teachers had treated you with such hostility when you asked a question?  .

Nearly got a full house on my Moon Landing Conspiracy Theory Bingo card there.
"Im not a conspiracy theorist". Yes, you are as you believe that it can be debunked easily.
"I'm being bullied for Just Asking Questions" No, you're not.

You ARE lazy, because you clearly cannot be bothered to do your own research. Instead you expect the burden of learning to be passed onto others. Nobody bears the onus of educating you or any other person that wanders in. Lots of people do enjoy sharing knowledge (myself included), however they do not carry an obligation to do so. If you really want to learn then don't come to the discussion with the bias of assuming that there was a hoax (you demonstrated that you have that bias when you say things such as "the astronauts' apparent reluctance to be interviewed")
.
However, I do apologise if my response was brusque and robust. In my defence I've seen far too many people doing what you appear to be doing, which is, coming in with the tactic of Just Asking Question, getting indignant when called out on it, crying foul and then either getting banned or going off in a huff. It's a very familiar tactic that's been demonstrated many, many times over the years and it usually ends up with the same result after pages of all-to-familiar pearl-clutching and false righteous indignation. My brusqueness tends to short-cut pages of tiresome nonsense and gets to the inevitable outcome.

If you really want to learn then come with an attitude of wanting to learn. If there's something that you don't understand then say "I don't understand X, Y and Z" Can you help me", rather than bringing a near-twenty years old piece of tawdry crap video from a known villain. Lots of people will be more than willing to help.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2020, 05:28:54 AM by Zakalwe »
"The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.' " - Isaac Asimov

Offline Jason Thompson

  • Uranus
  • ****
  • Posts: 1575
Re: M B Raja - hoax video
« Reply #21 on: June 25, 2020, 06:14:32 AM »
Dead Hoosiers, this is precisely why I suggested you should come with specifics, not just a link to a video. Posting specifics removes any ambiguity about your intent and your position, and avoids the kind of response that you have seen precisely because we have over and over again had hardcore hoax believers and conspiracy theorists just stick up a video and say 'what do you think?', and yes in many cases they have done it deliberately to provoke a meta-discussion about how they were responded to rather than anything of actual substance, or to obtain a wide range of replies so they could ignore all the debunkings they can't address and cherry pick the one bit they think they can respond to by pointing out perceived flaws or saying 'hey, I wasn't asking about that so why are you wasting your time on it?' I've been here for about 18 years now, and I have seen it over and over and over again. It is tiresome and it does mean I give short shrift to anyone else who does it.

For myself, I suggested specifics because you linked to a 45 minute video with no further comment. Were you really expecting me to sit for over an hour looking at it and compiling responses without any real idea what it was you found compelling in it? Why should I devote that much time to it for your benefit? If you asked specifics questions, or pointed to a time reference where an argument was made that you were particularly interested in I could have answered, because frankly this is so old I have a lot of the answers in my head anyway. People here are happy to answer questions and help those who are unsure to understand in more depth, but we don't have endless time to sit through videos with no clear idea of why.
"There's this idea that everyone's opinion is equally valid. My arse! Bloke who was a professor of dentistry for forty years does NOT have a debate with some eejit who removes his teeth with string and a door!"  - Dara O'Briain

Offline Obviousman

  • Jupiter
  • ***
  • Posts: 581
Re: M B Raja - hoax video
« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2020, 08:41:20 AM »
It is a fair point: if you have doubts, what is the most compelling argument you have heard?

Take your time and think about what really makes an impact on you and how you feel in this matter.

Online Zakalwe

  • Saturn
  • ****
  • Posts: 1438
Re: M B Raja - hoax video
« Reply #23 on: June 25, 2020, 09:39:42 AM »
He apparently also thinks I’m a man—too lazy to read my profile I guess.

Your gender is irrelevant, but just to be nit-picky....I made no reference to our  gender at all. If you were referring to this line
Quote
At least *some* of the guys from years ago made a bit of an effort
then i would refer you to this:
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/guy
I was referring to the group of hoax believers.

However, that debate is also irrelevant and is also the MO of many hoax believers. Pop in, post a deliberately vague question and then start to cherry-pick at some of the answers to try and find a different angle to make a claim that the OP is being victimised. This is then used in an attempt to show that their interlocutors can't answer the initial vague question.
It's a form of "sealioning" and again, we've all seen it a million times before.

"The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.' " - Isaac Asimov

Offline Peter B

  • Jupiter
  • ***
  • Posts: 998
Re: M B Raja - hoax video
« Reply #24 on: June 25, 2020, 09:58:03 AM »
I don't know whether we went to the moon or not. I wish I could know for sure.  Normally these videos trying to debunk the moon landing bore me, but this one is more interesting than others I've seen. Why haven't we gone back?  Or have we?

[url]https://myinnerengineering.com/2019/07/25/video-how-and-why-we-went-to-the-moon-what-actually-happened/[/url) 

Sorry, i can't remember how to post videos, but you can cut and paste.

G'day Dead Hoosiers

Welcome back.

Could you satisfy my curiosity as to why you're presenting this movie to us, asking all these questions, as though they're new to you?

Ta.

Offline Halcyon Dayz, FCD

  • Earth
  • ***
  • Posts: 123
  • Contrarian's Contrarian
Re: M B Raja - hoax video
« Reply #25 on: June 25, 2020, 11:26:37 AM »
The reason for the retirement of James Webb on October 7 1968. James Webb commented on it himself:

Quote
Webb resigned his job as NASA chief in 1968, a year before the first manned lunar landing. The front pages reported that he was bitter about budget cuts by the Johnson administration, increasingly beset with the funding of the Vietnam war. Sen. Margaret Chase Smith of Maine claimed that LBJ had "pulled the rug out from under James E. Webb."

"It wasn't a question of money," Webb said, revealing a conversation with Lyndon Baines Johnson that gave him a bit of political foresight nine months ahead of the times.

"President Johnson told me in July 1967 that he wasn't planning to run for another term. Yes, he told me that. I don't know what he told other people, but that's what he told me. He also said he was telling Texas Gov. John Connally. And he said he was going to make a public announcement in August. But, of course, it took him until the next March before he actually did.

"I knew that whoever got elected, either Humphrey or Nixon, wouldn't be happy with me. They might keep me on, but not be happy. By resigning, I could at least show them that it wasn't child's play, what the nation was trying to do with these big rockets."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/lifestyle/1981/09/24/james-webb-and-nasas-reach-for-the-moon/253a284e-bdd9-480f-ae0b-19a96ca7d961/

(and just to be sure, the above quote is from September 24, 1981, twenty years before "A funny thing.." (from you OP) was released.)
Webb talks about it in this interview from 1969, starting at page 32. [PDF]
http://www.lbjlibrary.net/assets/documents/archives/oral_histories/webb-j/webb.pdf
Hatred is a cancer upon the world.
It rots the mind and blackens the heart.

Offline Jeff Raven

  • Venus
  • **
  • Posts: 42
Re: M B Raja - hoax video
« Reply #26 on: June 25, 2020, 01:47:07 PM »
Nearly got a full house on my Moon Landing Conspiracy Theory Bingo card there.
"Im not a conspiracy theorist". Yes, you are as you believe that it can be debunked easily.
"I'm being bullied for Just Asking Questions" No, you're not.
...


Yup, DH's post was classic Baiting Language 101. I've read quite a number of similar threads here and elsewhere.

Respectfully and humbly suggest that, before this turns into another one of those pages-long threads, that this be the end of responses. Else, as Zakalwe stated, this has a strong likelihood of becoming another case of sealioning. (great term and comic - hadn't seen that one before)

Offline smartcooky

  • Uranus
  • ****
  • Posts: 1806
Re: M B Raja - hoax video
« Reply #27 on: June 25, 2020, 04:39:24 PM »
Nearly got a full house on my Moon Landing Conspiracy Theory Bingo card there.
"Im not a conspiracy theorist". Yes, you are as you believe that it can be debunked easily.
"I'm being bullied for Just Asking Questions" No, you're not.
...


Yup, DH's post was classic Baiting Language 101. I've read quite a number of similar threads here and elsewhere.

Respectfully and humbly suggest that, before this turns into another one of those pages-long threads, that this be the end of responses. Else, as Zakalwe stated, this has a strong likelihood of becoming another case of sealioning. (great term and comic - hadn't seen that one before)

Yup. The forum does not need another "cambo" thread.

This will be my last post to this thread
► What you can assert without evidence, I can dismiss without evidence
► When you argue with idiots you risk being dragged down to their level and beaten with experience.
► Conspiracism is a shortcut to the illusion of erudition

Offline Dead Hoosiers

  • Mercury
  • *
  • Posts: 8
  • Better a useless eater than a useful tool.
Re: M B Raja - hoax video
« Reply #28 on: June 25, 2020, 05:23:05 PM »

G'day Dead Hoosiers

Welcome back.

Could you satisfy my curiosity as to why you're presenting this movie to us, asking all these questions, as though they're new to you?

Ta.

Hi Peter, I remember you too.  Maybe you can recall that nearly all my posts on the old board were in the Other Conspiracies section and not on the moon landing.  I may have asked the odd question here and there but I certainly never debated it. It's not an area of particular interest to me. Probably better than 95% of my discussions were on the topics of religion and modern morals and ethics with some silly stuff tossed in. Since you asked why I posted the video, I'll tell you.

A friend sent me a link to that video and said it was proof that the government lied to us, and I didn't know how to answer her, so I came here to see if anyone had seen it.  I knew I would find something here that would counter the info in the video. Then I planned to get back to her with what I learned and tell her not to believe everything she reads without question.  It was that simple. I didn't have "all  these questions" but felt pressured to come up with something because it was being demanded of me, when I actually questioned the validity of entire video.  I just wanted an opinion supporting the moon landing. I don't expect anyone to watch a 45 min. video they have already seen and debunked. But since people say this video is so well known, a glance would have sufficed to tell them that this was old stuff and that they didn't need to watch further.  All they had to do was say so.    Maybe provided a link to where it was previously discussed. It looks like people didn't even bother to look at any of it before pelting me with questions.  Most of the video was new to me, since the hoax conspiracy isn't my baga and I think it's unreasonable to expect me to know all about what was posted and discussed on this forum in years gone by and to just assume I'm some kind of troll that they caught.

So what I'm going to do is send that Clavius link provided by Jay Utah to my friend and be done with the whole thing.  Too much time has been spent on this.

Offline Jason Thompson

  • Uranus
  • ****
  • Posts: 1575
Re: M B Raja - hoax video
« Reply #29 on: June 25, 2020, 05:47:22 PM »
A friend sent me a link to that video and said it was proof that the government lied to us, and I didn't know how to answer her, so I came here to see if anyone had seen it.

Then why didn't you just say so to begin with? Your initial post is very much giving the impression that you found the content believable yourself.

This is, again, just the kind of thing we see from conspiracy theorists. Open with a vague post with a link, then when pressed on their reasons provide an explanation which would, had it been provided at the start, have bypassed all the questioning and suspicion, but by that point they are so into complaining about their perceived unfair treatment the whole discussion becomes that about that instead.

Quote
It was that simple. I didn't have "all  these questions" but felt pressured to come up with something because it was being demanded of me,

It was requested, not demanded.

Quote
It looks like people didn't even bother to look at any of it before pelting me with questions.

You were not pelted with questions. I did not look at the video, for reasons I have already explained. I aksed you what was in it that made you question the vaidity of the landings, as your initial post implied.

Quote
So what I'm going to do is send that Clavius link provided by Jay Utah to my friend

That is certainly a good course of action. I hope your friend can be convinced of the validity of Apollo that way. The site is a real goldmine, as you said.
"There's this idea that everyone's opinion is equally valid. My arse! Bloke who was a professor of dentistry for forty years does NOT have a debate with some eejit who removes his teeth with string and a door!"  - Dara O'Briain