Author Topic: When Astronauts Return to the Moon...  (Read 5814 times)

Offline MBDK

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Re: When Astronauts Return to the Moon...
« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2020, 10:11:28 PM »
[What makes you think government space organisations would act differenty (Think Cosmos 954 and Cosmos 1402)?
The Space Liability Convention, which has been ratified by over 90 countries, makes the state (country), in who's territory any space vehicle was launched, fully liable for damages that may result from that vehicle. 

As for Cosmos 954, the Soviet Union did end up paying about 3 million Canadian Dollars for its clean up, because of the Soviet's inclusion in the SLC.  I don't think Cosmos 1402 ever caused any damage that has been declared.

Regardless, perhaps the private sector may end up being required to have some contingency fund available prior to being chosen for major contracts, but right now, I don't know of anything like that in effect.
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Offline smartcooky

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Re: When Astronauts Return to the Moon...
« Reply #31 on: January 12, 2020, 02:30:37 AM »
[What makes you think government space organisations would act differenty (Think Cosmos 954 and Cosmos 1402)?
The Space Liability Convention, which has been ratified by over 90 countries, makes the state (country), in who's territory any space vehicle was launched, fully liable for damages that may result from that vehicle. 

As for Cosmos 954, the Soviet Union did end up paying about 3 million Canadian Dollars for its clean up, because of the Soviet's inclusion in the SLC.  I don't think Cosmos 1402 ever caused any damage that has been declared.

Regardless, perhaps the private sector may end up being required to have some contingency fund available prior to being chosen for major contracts, but right now, I don't know of anything like that in effect.


And boy, did they ever have to fight to get that. It was less that half what Canada asked for and less than a quarter of what it actually cost... which was about CA$12m.
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Offline MBDK

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Re: When Astronauts Return to the Moon...
« Reply #32 on: January 12, 2020, 04:34:39 AM »
And boy, did they ever have to fight to get that. It was less that half what Canada asked for and less than a quarter of what it actually cost... which was about CA$12m.
So true.  There's governments for you.  But at least it's theoretically better than a defunct entity. *shrug*
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Offline gillianren

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Re: When Astronauts Return to the Moon...
« Reply #33 on: January 12, 2020, 12:16:46 PM »
Tesla has paid more in OSHA fines than ten major auto manufacturers combined between 2014 and 2018.  Nearly three times as much despite having slightly over a quarter of the employees of those ten combined.  Elon Musk also actively opposes unionization, so who's looking out for those workers' best interests?  Certainly not Elon Musk.
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Offline smartcooky

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Re: When Astronauts Return to the Moon...
« Reply #34 on: January 12, 2020, 02:13:50 PM »
Tesla has paid more in OSHA fines than ten major auto manufacturers combined between 2014 and 2018.  Nearly three times as much despite having slightly over a quarter of the employees of those ten combined.  Elon Musk also actively opposes unionization, so who's looking out for those workers' best interests?  Certainly not Elon Musk

That is true, but when you dig a little deeper, some interesting facts come to light. For example, its is also true that they have less than half the number of reportable safety incidents than the nationwide industry average. Perhaps one of the reasons they have higher fines, but lower numbers of reportable safety incidents can be explained in one word... California.

The state of California has by far the most strict and uncompromising OSHA standards and enforcement of any state. This is one of the reasons why other manufacturers in many nationwide industries don't set up there. Other car manufacturers instead set up in rural areas of states such as Kentucky (Toyota), Missouri (Ford), Texas (GM), Indiana (Subaru), Tennessee (Nissan) and Georgia (Kia), Alabama (Hyundai & Mercedes-Benz), SC (BMW), Ohio (Honda)

Its also hardly surprising that Tesla has more violations and fines that anyone else, they have more emplyees than anyone else too; between two and four times as many. At Freemont CA, they employ 15,000. The others I mentioned above?

Toyota 8,000
Ford 7,320
GM 4,125
Subaru 5,700
Nissan 8,000
Kia 2,700
Hyundai 3,000
Mercedes-Benz 3,800
Honda 4,200

Only BMW have a comparable number, 11,000 in South Carolina

Its also worth noting that OSHA have never accused Tesla of misrepresenting their safety numbers, whereas Ford & GM and other manufacturers have repeatedly been caught by OSHA faking theirs. Now combine that with the fact that they have many more employees (so more opportunities for accidents, violations and complaints) and the fact that they are subject to the much stricter laws and enforcement in California, and its not at all surprising (at least to me) that they have more code violations and fines than anyone else.

But perhaps you might be right to some extent about politics in relation to private companies and the work environment. Have a look at the States I listed above where the other manufacturers have chosen to locate. Those states all have something in common (its something that makes Tesla's location unique). Can you spot what it is?



 
 
« Last Edit: January 12, 2020, 02:21:32 PM by smartcooky »
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Offline gillianren

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Re: When Astronauts Return to the Moon...
« Reply #35 on: January 13, 2020, 11:06:43 AM »
California doesn't allow the same kind of union-busting as the South?  Meaning employees actually have someone looking out for their best interests?

You've never going to convince me that private enterprise does a better job on certain things.  Because certain things are more important than profit, and caring about profit ahead of anything else has inherent problems.  A friend and I were just talking yesterday about how harmful the privatization of British rail has been for actual rail travel in the UK.
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Offline Abaddon

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Re: When Astronauts Return to the Moon...
« Reply #36 on: January 13, 2020, 02:12:52 PM »
California doesn't allow the same kind of union-busting as the South?  Meaning employees actually have someone looking out for their best interests?

You've never going to convince me that private enterprise does a better job on certain things.  Because certain things are more important than profit, and caring about profit ahead of anything else has inherent problems.  A friend and I were just talking yesterday about how harmful the privatization of British rail has been for actual rail travel in the UK.

And I agree. There are some things which should never be run for profit. Some services are necessary to maintain the fabric of society. Profit is irrelevant. Healthcare springs to mind.

Offline AtomicDog

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Re: When Astronauts Return to the Moon...
« Reply #37 on: January 13, 2020, 06:01:55 PM »
California doesn't allow the same kind of union-busting as the South?  Meaning employees actually have someone looking out for their best interests?



And yet Tesla remains in California, instead of moving to the South where they would undoubtedly have an easier time of it. (I live in Georgia. This state would welcome Tesla in a hot minute.)
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Offline smartcooky

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Re: When Astronauts Return to the Moon...
« Reply #38 on: January 13, 2020, 07:19:42 PM »
California doesn't allow the same kind of union-busting as the South?  Meaning employees actually have someone looking out for their best interests?

And if Musk wanted to avoid unions and be free to abuse his workers (as you seem to be claiming) then why did he set up operations in California of all places, where he runs into the strictest enforcement?

You've never going to convince me that private enterprise does a better job on certain things.  Because certain things are more important than profit, and caring about profit ahead of anything else has inherent problems.  A friend and I were just talking yesterday about how harmful the privatization of British rail has been for actual rail travel in the UK.

I agree with you on utilities such as rail, power and water, but you will never convince me that private space is not a good thing. It is way more efficient than government space and has brought down the cost of space launches dramatically. STS cost was $54,500 per kilogram to the ISS or similar LEO.  A SpaceX Falcon 9 costs just $2,720 per kilogram. Putting something like a cubesat into orbit is now within reach of small businesses like mine; before private space, it was simply out of the question.
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Offline gillianren

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Re: When Astronauts Return to the Moon...
« Reply #39 on: January 14, 2020, 08:49:28 AM »
And if Tesla's really that great, why do they have all those violations--some of which are pretty shocking, frankly--in the first place?
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Offline Zakalwe

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Re: When Astronauts Return to the Moon...
« Reply #40 on: January 16, 2020, 11:47:34 AM »
.  A friend and I were just talking yesterday about how harmful the privatization of British rail has been for actual rail travel in the UK.

Really?  By what metric?
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Offline smartcooky

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Re: When Astronauts Return to the Moon...
« Reply #41 on: January 16, 2020, 02:09:21 PM »
And if Tesla's really that great, why do they have all those violations--some of which are pretty shocking, frankly--in the first place?

And yet numerically, they have less than half the violations of other car manufacturers, they are less serious violations than those of other car manufacturers, all over the same periods of time, despite having far more employees than any of them. Yet they have been fined a greater number of $$$. Can't you work out why?

Come on gillianren, this is not rocket science!
« Last Edit: January 16, 2020, 02:14:34 PM by smartcooky »
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Offline bknight

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Re: When Astronauts Return to the Moon...
« Reply #42 on: January 16, 2020, 02:28:12 PM »
<snip>

I agree with you on utilities such as rail, power and water, but you will never convince me that private space is not a good thing. It is way more efficient than government space and has brought down the cost of space launches dramatically. STS cost was $54,500 per kilogram to the ISS or similar LEO.  A SpaceX Falcon 9 costs just $2,720 per kilogram. Putting something like a cubesat into orbit is now within reach of small businesses like mine; before private space, it was simply out of the question.

It is in my opinion that SpaceX has revolutionized the rocketry business with their reusable system.  Makes sending orbital packages into respective orbits more affordable.  But this seems to be a conundrum of sorts, as the number of satellites increases, so do the odds of impacting them with oter vehicles.  I know they are miles apart vertically/horizontally but it won't be pretty when/if something impacts a critical mission.
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Offline benparry

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Re: When Astronauts Return to the Moon...
« Reply #43 on: January 20, 2020, 10:31:13 AM »
.  A friend and I were just talking yesterday about how harmful the privatization of British rail has been for actual rail travel in the UK.

Really?  By what metric?

Delays for one. Hasn't Northern Rail just been stripped of its contract. I personally believe that there has to be a balance between national and private ownership.

Offline Zakalwe

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Re: When Astronauts Return to the Moon...
« Reply #44 on: January 20, 2020, 11:10:53 AM »
.  A friend and I were just talking yesterday about how harmful the privatization of British rail has been for actual rail travel in the UK.

Really?  By what metric?

Delays for one. Hasn't Northern Rail just been stripped of its contract. I personally believe that there has to be a balance between national and private ownership.

On time and delays are pretty much where they were when BR was privatised.
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