Author Topic: The Trump Presidency  (Read 123999 times)

Offline peter eldergill

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1950 on: January 13, 2021, 06:25:12 PM »
I just mean, is he actually out of office now, or what is the next step in the process. I'm not really sure. I read CBC News and it says 10 Republicans votes for impeachment but it also says something about a trial after he's done his term in a week or so. What's the next step I guess is what I was asking and what possible outcomes may arise?

Cheers

Peter

Offline BazBear

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1951 on: January 13, 2021, 06:45:52 PM »
I just mean, is he actually out of office now, or what is the next step in the process. I'm not really sure. I read CBC News and it says 10 Republicans votes for impeachment but it also says something about a trial after he's done his term in a week or so. What's the next step I guess is what I was asking and what possible outcomes may arise?

Cheers

Peter
The House impeaching him is the equivalent of a grand jury indictment, now the Senate will have a trial, followed by a vote to convict him or not, requiring a 2/3 supermajority to convict and remove him from office.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2021, 06:49:59 PM by BazBear »
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Offline BazBear

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1952 on: January 13, 2021, 06:48:25 PM »
If convicted, he may also be precluded from holding office in the future.
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Offline JayUtah

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1953 on: January 13, 2021, 07:06:09 PM »
Ah, that's what you were asking.

Yes, a trial is held in the Senate at which time the President may be represented by counsel.  The prosecutors are "managers" -- selected Members of the House, who present the articles of impeachment and argue the case against the President.  Each side may present evidence and call witnesses, who testify under oath.  The trial is presided over by the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court.

The imminent articles of impeachment call for two remedies:  removal from office, and a bar on holding any national office of trust.  On the removal charge, the vote must be a 2/3 supermajority, as already explained.  On the bar, only a simple majority is required.  Since the Senate is not scheduled to convene next until Jan. 19, the day before Donald Trump's term expires, and an impeachment trial typically takes 1-2 weeks, it is likely that the vote on removal will be foregone as moot.  The trial would continue on the same charges, because the vote to bar him from further office would still be valid after Trump leaves office.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline peter eldergill

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1954 on: January 13, 2021, 08:00:18 PM »
"Ah, that's what you were asking."

You mean you could read my mind from a poorly phrased, hard to understand question from me? ;D

Thanks for answering everyone. My Dad remarried an American and lives in Richmond VA. My stepmothers immediate family is very anti Trump, but her sister and brother are conservative. We don't discuss politics when we visit.

We also visit them yearly and go to North Carolina to the beach. But due to the virus, we weren't able to go last year. Hopefully this year! I'd love to visit Utah (and Arizona, and Oregon, Washington, etc)

 Anyway, we all hope things go ok in your country in the near future. After the last nastiness, I sent a monologue to my stepmother from James Cordon. It's very heartfelt. Have a look if you like, it's only a few minutes long

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SKIF9s_kv_o

Cheers, Peter

Offline JayUtah

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1955 on: January 13, 2021, 10:30:31 PM »
President Trump is refusing to pay Rudy Giuliani's legal fees.  I mean, I wouldn't either, given the quality of service provided.  However, Trump is reverting to type:  the constant in his behavior is that he will always screw over anyone who's stupid, depraved, or desperate enough to work for him.

Where's that "eating the popcorn" emoji that's so appropriate right now?
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline raven

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1956 on: January 14, 2021, 01:39:23 AM »
Not a single emoji, alas, but these two combine fairly well to that effect. 🍿🥱
We shall have to see where things go from here. While, as has been said repeatedly, this did not begin and it will not end with Trump, the cult around him is such that, I hope, barring him from office will disrupt things some. Or it might drive them to do something even worse. I legitimately worry at least someone is going to try something at the inauguration.

Offline Jason Thompson

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1957 on: January 14, 2021, 04:01:23 AM »
Indeed the election-results bits of Monty Python are some of my favorites.

It was Blackadder but still classic British comedy so I'll let you have that one... ;)

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As I've said, politics is now just a game unto itself, serving only itself, and without much regard to governance and integrity.

It's the same here in Britain too. I may have said this here before but someone a few years ago made an observation that seems to fit, which is that it is a fairly recent phenomenon in Britain that you can study politics and become a politician as a career move without ever doing anything else. Not all that long ago politicians had experience of life in other areas, and several had other jobs, which is why Parliament sits in the afternoon: they'd have been working elsewhere in the morning (this was before working time regulations limited how many hours you could work and how many jobs you could hold down at once). Now we have people appointed to be minister of something they have absolutely no experience or knowledge of the workings of. I don't recall the last time we had a Minister for Education who had ever worked in education at any level, for example.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2021, 04:23:05 AM by Jason Thompson »
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Offline Zakalwe

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1958 on: January 14, 2021, 04:20:49 AM »
Indeed the election-results bits of Monty Python are some of my favorites.

It was Blackadder but still classic British comedy so I'll let you have that one... ;)

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As I've said, politics is now just a game unto itself, serving only itself, and without much regard to governance and integrity.

It's the same here in Britain too. I may have said this here before but someone a few years ago made an observation that seems to fit, which is that it is a fairly recent phenomenon in Britain that you can study politics and become a politician as a career move without ever doing anything else. Not all that long ago politicians had experience of life in other areas, and several had other jobs, which is why Parliament sits in the afternoon: they'd have been working elsewhere in the morning (this was before working time regulations limited how many hours you could work and how many jobs you could hold down at once). Now we have people appointed to be minister of something they have absolutely no experience or knowledge of the workings of. I don't recall the last time we had a Minister for Education who had ever worked in education at any level, for example.

The good old philosophy, politics and economics degree and then straight into Westminster!  I'm a believer in politicians having some sort of experience in the field that they are supposed to be governing, but I'm also wary of "politicians must have business experience". That got us Trump and Macron...

I do shake my head when I see the line-up of talent infesting Westminster at the moment though. Chris "Failing" Grayling, Gove, Cleverley (if ever there was a surname in total contradiction to actual abilities then it is that one), Andrew Brigden, Priti Patel (I can't thing of a worse trifecta of "talents" to have in such a powerful job- a bully, meagre ability and an overwhelming belief in her abilities).

Part of the problem is that for 5 years the UK had a totally ineffective opposition under Corbyn. I think that that is a worse dilemma than politicians holding life experience TBH. It allowed a cabinet of useless populists to get their hands on power and railroad through some of the most damaging legislation in generations.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2021, 04:24:20 AM by Zakalwe »
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Offline Peter B

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1959 on: January 14, 2021, 07:53:28 AM »
[snip]

Part of the problem is that for 5 years the UK had a totally ineffective opposition under Corbyn. I think that that is a worse dilemma than politicians holding life experience TBH. It allowed a cabinet of useless populists to get their hands on power and railroad through some of the most damaging legislation in generations.

This comment made me want to post a little point of difference between the American system and the Westminster system.

In the USA the President nominates his cabinet for ratification by the Senate, with the nominees specifically not allowed to be members of Congress. Given (a) the number of deputy officials and (b) the generally eight-yearly swap between parties, it's led to the development of two streams of such officials who alternate in holding these cabinet positions. Many of Reagan's secretaries had been junior figures in the Nixon administration, and many of Bush II's secretaries had been junior figures in the Reagan-Bush I administrations; and the same for the Democrats. But, crucially, in the period when the other party is in power there aren't official roles for unemployed cabinet secretaries, and the current secretaries themselves aren't shadowed by anyone to keep them on their toes.

The Westminster system operates quite differently. In particular, ministers must be members of Parliament. This somewhat restricts the talent pool the Prime Minister can choose ministers from (as pointed out above), but at least the PM doesn't need Upper House approval for ministerial appointments. On top of that, politicians can be shifted from one ministerial post to another, and they can be given ministries (or lose them) as the PM sees fit. However there's another point: the Leader of the Opposition runs a shadow cabinet, whose members are allocated positions which shadow the actual ministers. This has two purposes. Firstly, there's an Opposition politician with a fair degree of knowledge of each portfolio, watching the minister and commenting on their decisions and performance, which means the ministers have to be constantly on top of their portfolios. And secondly, when the Opposition party wins government, the new Prime Minister has a group of politicians with a decent amount of knowledge of various portfolios, theoretically ready to hit the ground running as ministers.

So comparing the two systems, the American system seems to lack a position for an Opposition Leader who can co-ordinate a team of shadow secretaries who are able to (a) comment on the decisions and performance of the President's cabinet and (b) present an alternative policy platform. In the Trump administration a lot of that work fell to Pelosi and Schumer alone, at least until the Democrats settled on Biden as their Presidential nomination. But even so it appears to require these few people to be across a wide range of policy issues - defence, economy, immigration, foreign relations, trade, health, education...

The Westminster system allows the Opposition Leader to be supported by a phalanx of shadow ministers who can provide a reasonably eloquent critique of what they think various ministers are doing wrong, and what the Opposition party offers as an alternative if they win the next election. A minister who messes up is going to be mercilessly criticised by the relevant shadow minister; in serious cases this can lead to the PM having to dismiss the minister, which in turn can cause something of a cabinet reshuffle as the PM needs to switch a competent replacement from another portfolio, with obvious knock-on effects.

The other outcome of this system is that it means a significant proportion of politicians of both parties are fronting the media on a regular basis...as opposed to beavering away anonymously to earn the frustrated ire of voters.

Offline Ranb

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1960 on: January 14, 2021, 10:57:26 AM »
If convicted, he may also be precluded from holding office in the future.
As far as I know this is not true.  The Constitution allows a person to be elected twice.  https://www.abc4.com/news/politics/would-president-trump-actually-lose-anything-from-impeachment/

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“The Former Presidents Act provides ex-presidents with a number of benefits, including a $200k annual pension, a travel allowance, lifetime Secret Service detail, and more,” he says. “However, the president would lose some of these things if the Senate voted to remove him from office before Jan. 20. He would lose the pension and other monetary benefits, but not the Secret Service protection.”

Offline jfb

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1961 on: January 14, 2021, 11:14:03 AM »
If convicted, he may also be precluded from holding office in the future.
As far as I know this is not true.  The Constitution allows a person to be elected twice.  https://www.abc4.com/news/politics/would-president-trump-actually-lose-anything-from-impeachment/

From Article II, Section 3:
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Judgment in cases of impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any office of honor, trust or profit under the United States: but the party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to indictment, trial, judgment and punishment, according to law.

A President may be impeached but not removed from office (which has been the case in all impeachments so far - Nixon resigned before the Senate could have removed him).  A President may be impeached and removed from office, but still be eligible to run for President or other office again.  A President may be impeached, removed from office, and disqualified from holding office in the future. 

So far nobody has been impeached, removed, and barred from holding office.  It's unlikely this time around - you need 2/3rds of the Senate (66 votes) to convict, and then there's a separate vote on disqualifying future office, although AFAIK that only requires a simple majority. 

Prior to the ratification of the 22nd Amendment, you could serve as President for as many terms as you wanted.

Offline JayUtah

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1962 on: January 14, 2021, 11:39:18 AM »
although AFAIK that only requires a simple majority.

Correct.  In the 1936 trial of the impeached Judge Robert Archibald, the Senate determined that, pursuant to an earlier trial of a different judge, the order to remove from office was mandatory upon conviction, but that the order to disqualify from future office was a severable discretionary question and subject only to a simple majority vote, which in Judge Archibald's case, carried and resulted in both his dismissal from office and his disqualification under Art. II § 3.  (Cannon. Precedents of the House of Representatives § 512)
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline gillianren

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1963 on: January 14, 2021, 12:40:15 PM »
Indeed the election-results bits of Monty Python are some of my favorites.

It was Blackadder but still classic British comedy so I'll let you have that one... ;)

I caught it!

Look, I disliked Bush the Younger (and Bush the Elder, and Reagan . . . ) quite a lot.  And, frankly, part of that was because a lot of their policies stemmed from bigotry.  Reagan in particular has the blood of millions on his hands because of a failed AIDS policy that basically seemed to boil down to "we don't care if gay people die."  But I'm also not best thrilled with Obama's drone policy and am perfectly willing to say so.  I can criticize every Democratic leader of my lifetime.  The difference between me and every Trump supporter I've encountered so far is that not a one of them seem to be able to point to anything they don't like about him that they don't follow with "but both sides."
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Offline JayUtah

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1964 on: January 14, 2021, 12:55:46 PM »
It was Blackadder but still classic British comedy so I'll let you have that one... ;)

Which also has some enjoyable election bits.  PItt the Embryo?
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams