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Off Topic => Other Conspiracy Theories => Topic started by: Dalhousie on March 28, 2020, 12:31:48 AM

Title: COVID-19
Post by: Dalhousie on March 28, 2020, 12:31:48 AM
A certain nameless family member seemed to successfully filled their bingo card.  To summarise:

"COVID 19 is a bioengineered virus spread by chemtrails after after mass immunisations weakened people's immune systems.  The virus was activated by microwave radiation from newly installed 5G networks"  I think that is what they said at any rate, the original was somewhat more incoherent.   ::)  ::)

Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Bryanpoprobson on March 28, 2020, 03:06:09 AM
Everyone knows it was a Chinese plot to destabilise the West’s economy. Or so I’ve been told on Facebook. 😂😂😂
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Dalhousie on March 28, 2020, 03:27:51 AM
Then there is the capitalist plot to get rid of old people.

Or the CIA attack on China
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Bryanpoprobson on March 28, 2020, 04:35:34 AM
Then there is the capitalist plot to get rid of old people.

Or the CIA attack on China

The latter one has backfired then.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: molesworth on March 28, 2020, 05:08:00 AM
Then there is the capitalist plot to get rid of old people.
Considering that older people make up a large part of the right wing voter base, this seems like a counter-productive idea.

There again, when did a conspiracy theory ever make sense?  ;D
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Obviousman on March 28, 2020, 05:26:50 PM
The 'boomer remover'.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: cambo on March 30, 2020, 06:09:01 PM

Quote
when did a conspiracy theory ever make sense?

OK, that’ll do, it’s time we all crawled back out from under our beds, stop watching the telly and reading the newspapers and do our own research, while staying well clear of Google.

Look for the real figures. Find the death toll figures for this time last year and compare them to what we have now and pay particular attention to flu and respiratory related deaths.

Educate yourselves on how the test works with its flaws and limitations. Find out how common these Corona viruses are and ask yourself why Germany have by far the lowest percentage of deaths in relation to the so-called confirmed cases.

Have you seen inside the wards teeming with virus sufferers? And before you start going on about how many people you know working for the health service, I myself know a fair few, including a couple of family members. Fair enough, the ones I spoke to say they are rushed off their feet, but isn’t that the norm in the winter months?

Here in the UK the NHS have been struggling to cope for years, so we are lead to believe, long before this new flu bug came along. Even if our hospitals really are chock-a-block with flu patients, there’s a perfectly simple explanation for that. Problem is, a bit of logic may be required during your research, so I don’t hold out much hope for most of the population.

When you have all the information in front of you, ask yourself if a seasonal flu bug is a valid excuse for placing us under house arrest and potentially putting millions of people out of work and bringing the economy to its knees. My private pension has took a massive nosedive, so the rest of my retirement may not be so rosy after all. It feels like we’re in some holocaust movie, only this is for real, apart from this so called deadly killer virus of course.

When this latest scare tactic blows over, we’ll all be thankful to our governments for potentially saving millions of lives. Lives that were never going to be lost in the first place.

I’m high risk because I have a chronic lung disease and asthma and it wasn’t all that long ago since I underwent major heart surgery. I’m locked up in my home until further notice, which makes it difficult to get the proper exercise I need. Am I worried? The only reason I’m not out roaming the streets, licking people’s faces is because it would upset my family. If it wasn’t for them, I’d be living in a forest, eating squirrels by now.

When an individual person in a hospital bed, looks out at you from your TV and says “look at me, this is what you get if you go out” it makes you sad and incredibly thankful that you are one of the lucky ones, does it not? Well stop it! You need to get things into perspective, as there are millions of people in hospital at any one time, hooked up to machines with tubes hanging from nearly every orifice. But one person on a news bulletin is enough to seal the deal.

This is how easy it is to fool people, because most of us will never be able to comprehend what our leaders are capable of. Plenty of people don’t trust their government, but to go this far would be completely absurd, wouldn’t it? We all had better get used to this way of life, because this is just the latest step towards their goal. Just imagine, no more protest marches, no more riots, no more terror attacks, as there would be no further need for them, and crime would be virtually non-existent. If I’m still here in five years’ time, let’s see how many people are telling me I was wrong.

I realise some people will be genuinely upset and even disgusted and appalled at my words, as there are lots of people who are experiencing what they think is a direct result of this fictitious pandemic. Flu kills people in poor health, the old and frail and even the odd seemingly healthy among us, so what we’re experiencing is normal, but it’s been cleverly spun by the elite few.

Even our leaders are probably oblivious to the scam, as they make decisions based on advice from their advisers who probably get their advice from someone higher in the chain. The alleged scientists giving advice are not scientists, you have to dig deep to find the real ones. These are the people that should open your eyes, and yes, this time they are real scientists.

It only took me a couple of days to source and process the information which exposes the scam, so if I can do it, so can you. You’re getting no help from me on this one. If you are too bone idle or dim witted to put the work in, then it’s no fault of mine. Maybe you think there is no need, as you have complete faith in the media, then more fool you.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: LunarOrbit on March 30, 2020, 07:16:22 PM
I will not tolerate any conspiracy theory that could endanger others.

Only time will tell just how deadly COVID-19 will end up being, but at this moment, when we could be seeing 200,000 deaths in the United States in the weeks or months ahead, it is not smart to assume that it is being over-hyped. Assume it is deadly, and be safe. Don't be stupid.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Bryanpoprobson on March 31, 2020, 04:54:18 AM
Cambo, you sir are a complete idiot. Statements like
Quote
The only reason I’m not out roaming the streets, licking people’s faces is because it would upset my family.
are disgusting.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: gillianren on March 31, 2020, 11:55:58 AM
Also, such a classy Holocaust reference.

"It's just a seasonal flu" doesn't explain the exponential case growth.  It doesn't take much "independent research" to know that the fear is completely justified--the fact that a lot of these hospitals have already been overwhelmed is why the response needs to be as serious as it is.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: molesworth on April 04, 2020, 07:49:42 AM
Cambo, you sir are a complete idiot.
That pretty much sums up my response as well.

This is NOT a seasonal flu virus - it's not even in the same virus family.

Two key numbers explain why this is a disease which needs to be taken seriously, r0 - the rate of infection spread, and the Case Fatality Rate (CFR).  For influenza, r0 is around 1.3, while for Covid-19 it's somewhere between 2 and 3, so the latter is going to spread much more quickly and result in much higher infection rates in any given population.

Infected individuals can spread it even before symptoms appear, and because a lot of people are asymptomatic after infection, they aren't aware they might be spreading it.  (Some estimates say that 10% of most countries' populations are already affected, but likely asymptomatic.)  The longer average incubation time compared to flu increases the likelihood of spread as well.

The CFR is also much higher, being something like 0.1% for flu, and between 1% and 3% for Covid-19.  Taking these two figures together, and the lack of any effective vaccine or treatments, the worldwide impact of Covid-19 is going to be devastating.  Anybody downplaying it, or saying it's some sort of insane government conspiracy needs to take a long, hard look at where they're getting their information from, and maybe learn a little bit of real science.

Oh, and since this is the "Other Conspiracy Theories" sub-forum, I've just read a report that telephone engineers in the UK are being harassed and abused by people who think the roll-out of 5G is the cause of the disease, not a virus!  They're even setting fire to cell towers, just when people need connectivity more than ever.  (And of course there are the usual celebs backing and publicising these idiotic ideas.)  <shakes head despondently>
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Peter B on April 04, 2020, 09:27:25 AM

when did a conspiracy theory ever make sense?

OK, that’ll do, it’s time we all crawled back out from under our beds, stop watching the telly and reading the newspapers and do our own research, while staying well clear of Google.

Look for the real figures. Find the death toll figures for this time last year and compare them to what we have now and pay particular attention to flu and respiratory related deaths.

Educate yourselves on how the test works with its flaws and limitations. Find out how common these Corona viruses are and ask yourself why Germany have by far the lowest percentage of deaths in relation to the so-called confirmed cases.

Have you seen inside the wards teeming with virus sufferers? And before you start going on about how many people you know working for the health service, I myself know a fair few, including a couple of family members. Fair enough, the ones I spoke to say they are rushed off their feet, but isn’t that the norm in the winter months?

Here in the UK the NHS have been struggling to cope for years, so we are lead to believe, long before this new flu bug came along. Even if our hospitals really are chock-a-block with flu patients, there’s a perfectly simple explanation for that. Problem is, a bit of logic may be required during your research, so I don’t hold out much hope for most of the population.

When you have all the information in front of you, ask yourself if a seasonal flu bug is a valid excuse for placing us under house arrest and potentially putting millions of people out of work and bringing the economy to its knees. My private pension has took a massive nosedive, so the rest of my retirement may not be so rosy after all. It feels like we’re in some holocaust movie, only this is for real, apart from this so called deadly killer virus of course.

When this latest scare tactic blows over, we’ll all be thankful to our governments for potentially saving millions of lives. Lives that were never going to be lost in the first place.

I’m high risk because I have a chronic lung disease and asthma and it wasn’t all that long ago since I underwent major heart surgery. I’m locked up in my home until further notice, which makes it difficult to get the proper exercise I need. Am I worried? The only reason I’m not out roaming the streets, licking people’s faces is because it would upset my family. If it wasn’t for them, I’d be living in a forest, eating squirrels by now.

When an individual person in a hospital bed, looks out at you from your TV and says “look at me, this is what you get if you go out” it makes you sad and incredibly thankful that you are one of the lucky ones, does it not? Well stop it! You need to get things into perspective, as there are millions of people in hospital at any one time, hooked up to machines with tubes hanging from nearly every orifice. But one person on a news bulletin is enough to seal the deal.

This is how easy it is to fool people, because most of us will never be able to comprehend what our leaders are capable of. Plenty of people don’t trust their government, but to go this far would be completely absurd, wouldn’t it? We all had better get used to this way of life, because this is just the latest step towards their goal. Just imagine, no more protest marches, no more riots, no more terror attacks, as there would be no further need for them, and crime would be virtually non-existent. If I’m still here in five years’ time, let’s see how many people are telling me I was wrong.

I realise some people will be genuinely upset and even disgusted and appalled at my words, as there are lots of people who are experiencing what they think is a direct result of this fictitious pandemic. Flu kills people in poor health, the old and frail and even the odd seemingly healthy among us, so what we’re experiencing is normal, but it’s been cleverly spun by the elite few.

Even our leaders are probably oblivious to the scam, as they make decisions based on advice from their advisers who probably get their advice from someone higher in the chain. The alleged scientists giving advice are not scientists, you have to dig deep to find the real ones. These are the people that should open your eyes, and yes, this time they are real scientists.

It only took me a couple of days to source and process the information which exposes the scam, so if I can do it, so can you. You’re getting no help from me on this one. If you are too bone idle or dim witted to put the work in, then it’s no fault of mine. Maybe you think there is no need, as you have complete faith in the media, then more fool you.

Right.

So the demographic stats for the UK suggest roughly 600,000 people die each year. That's about 1660 a day, though I bet that would vary to some extent month by month - my guess more in winter and fewer in summer. Now the reports are saying that 300+ people are dying each day from the coronavirus. That means that the daily number of deaths in the UK must be at least 20% higher than pre-virus. That sort of figure should be possible to check.

So Cambo, if you're still reading this, why not phone your local undertakers and ask them what business is like.

But never mind the UK. If you're still convinced everything is just tickety-boo in the UK, what about other countries?

You could check on Spain, with about 70% of the population of the UK, and as many as 800 people a day dying from the coronavirus. Are these numbers made up? Are all the people mourning dead family members just that old conspiritard stand-by of "crisis actors"? When a funeral provider says it's performing six times as many funerals as normal, is that fake statistics? (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-01/spains-coronavirus-reality-is-grim-how-did-it-start-there/12103590)

Or New York, where refrigerator trucks are parked outside hospitals to help with storing the extra corpses. Are the people seeing (and hearing) them telling fibs? Given what unemployment benefits are in the US, do you think the massive increase in people applying for them is due to a sudden surge of laziness? Or is it due to a massive economic downturn? (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-04/how-new-york-was-badly-hit-by-coronavirus-covid-19/12114976)

And here in Australia, do you seriously think a conservative government would introduce economic measures they themselves dismissed as socialist barely months ago (increasing unemployment benefits, providing wage subsidies to allow businesses to continue to employ people, providing free childcare for everyone, eviction moratoriums, and negotiating access to private hospital ICU beds to supplement the ICU beds available in the public health system) unless there was a hugely compelling reason? (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03-31/coronavirus-scott-morrison-consensus-jobkeeper/12106334?section=analysis) [I particularly recommend reading this article - Annabel Crabb is a superb writer.]

I had to visit the doctor yesterday for an iron infusion (I have my own chronic health issues). Instead of the usual 50-odd chairs in the waiting room there were about eight. When I entered my temperature was taken and I had to answer questions about my health and use hospital-grade hand sanitiser. While I was waiting I saw one of the staff wipe down all the hard surfaces of the reception desk. And all the GPs in the clinic wore scrubs and face masks instead of ordinary clothes. Have the entire staff of the clinic been taken in by some massive conspiracy? Or are they all part of it?

Or, gee, do you think there may actually be a pandemic disease sweeping the world in a way nothing has done in the last century?

What is actually so hard to believe about this?
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: gillianren on April 04, 2020, 11:29:21 AM
Oh, and since this is the "Other Conspiracy Theories" sub-forum, I've just read a report that telephone engineers in the UK are being harassed and abused by people who think the roll-out of 5G is the cause of the disease, not a virus!  They're even setting fire to cell towers, just when people need connectivity more than ever.  (And of course there are the usual celebs backing and publicising these idiotic ideas.)  <shakes head despondently>

I apparently have a friend who believes that 5G is dangerous and that people have been fooled to allow it because the law sneaked through during a time of tragedy.  She does believe in the virus, but she claims to be "sensitive" to the frequencies and says it's already making her sick.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Zakalwe on April 04, 2020, 12:35:37 PM

I apparently have a friend who believes that 5G is dangerous and that people have been fooled to allow it because the law sneaked through during a time of tragedy.  She does believe in the virus, but she claims to be "sensitive" to the frequencies and says it's already making her sick.

Your friend is an idiot.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: smartcooky on April 05, 2020, 07:38:24 AM
<Snipped for safety>

Right.

So the demographic stats for the UK suggest roughly 600,000 people die each year. That's about 1660 a day, though I bet that would vary to some extent month by month - my guess more in winter and fewer in summer. Now the reports are saying that 300+ people are dying each day from the coronavirus. That means that the daily number of deaths in the UK must be at least 20% higher than pre-virus. That sort of figure should be possible to check.

So Cambo, if you're still reading this, why not phone your local undertakers and ask them what business is like.

But never mind the UK. If you're still convinced everything is just tickety-boo in the UK, what about other countries?

You could check on Spain, with about 70% of the population of the UK, and as many as 800 people a day dying from the coronavirus. Are these numbers made up? Are all the people mourning dead family members just that old conspiritard stand-by of "crisis actors"? When a funeral provider says it's performing six times as many funerals as normal, is that fake statistics? (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-01/spains-coronavirus-reality-is-grim-how-did-it-start-there/12103590)

Or New York, where refrigerator trucks are parked outside hospitals to help with storing the extra corpses. Are the people seeing (and hearing) them telling fibs? Given what unemployment benefits are in the US, do you think the massive increase in people applying for them is due to a sudden surge of laziness? Or is it due to a massive economic downturn? (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-04/how-new-york-was-badly-hit-by-coronavirus-covid-19/12114976)

And here in Australia, do you seriously think a conservative government would introduce economic measures they themselves dismissed as socialist barely months ago (increasing unemployment benefits, providing wage subsidies to allow businesses to continue to employ people, providing free childcare for everyone, eviction moratoriums, and negotiating access to private hospital ICU beds to supplement the ICU beds available in the public health system) unless there was a hugely compelling reason? (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03-31/coronavirus-scott-morrison-consensus-jobkeeper/12106334?section=analysis) [I particularly recommend reading this article - Annabel Crabb is a superb writer.]

I had to visit the doctor yesterday for an iron infusion (I have my own chronic health issues). Instead of the usual 50-odd chairs in the waiting room there were about eight. When I entered my temperature was taken and I had to answer questions about my health and use hospital-grade hand sanitiser. While I was waiting I saw one of the staff wipe down all the hard surfaces of the reception desk. And all the GPs in the clinic wore scrubs and face masks instead of ordinary clothes. Have the entire staff of the clinic been taken in by some massive conspiracy? Or are they all part of it?

Or, gee, do you think there may actually be a pandemic disease sweeping the world in a way nothing has done in the last century?

What is actually so hard to believe about this?

Peter, you won't get an answer, you're replying to a banned poster

http://www.apollohoax.net/forum/index.php?topic=109.msg53051#msg53051
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Peter B on April 06, 2020, 07:08:34 AM

Peter, you won't get an answer, you're replying to a banned poster

http://www.apollohoax.net/forum/index.php?topic=109.msg53051#msg53051

Yeah, but I figured that if he was interested enough in the site to attempt to create a sock puppet he might perhaps read responses to the post that got him banned in the first place.

In any case, like with Apollo Hoax comments generally, I can also hope to address people who might potentially be taken in by cambo's comments.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Peter B on April 30, 2020, 10:49:36 AM
Over at Unexplained Mysteries there's a thread listing and discussing the various conspiracy theories relating to the virus. They've reached 100 so far...

But one of the more recent topics has been the drug remdesivir - a horribly expensive drug still under patent that the thread's resident conspiracy theorists think is being pushed by miscellaneous lefties and Trump-haters as opposed to the cheap generic hydroxychloroquine that Trump had been touting lately.

Only now, I see Trump is touting remdesivir.

I wait with interest to see how the conspiracy theorists rationalise that...
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Obviousman on April 30, 2020, 04:36:49 PM
Over at Unexplained Mysteries there's a thread listing and discussing the various conspiracy theories relating to the virus. They've reached 100 so far...

But one of the more recent topics has been the drug remdesivir - a horribly expensive drug still under patent that the thread's resident conspiracy theorists think is being pushed by miscellaneous lefties and Trump-haters as opposed to the cheap generic hydroxychloroquine that Trump had been touting lately.

Only now, I see Trump is touting remdesivir.

I wait with interest to see how the conspiracy theorists rationalise that...

Yeah, it will be refreshing to see some people realise they have made an error, admit to it, and reconsider their stance... *POP* Oh - that was just a fantasy.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Bryanpoprobson on May 01, 2020, 01:15:59 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/EQaleUk.jpg)
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Peter B on May 07, 2020, 09:26:51 AM
What a relief!

Just today we found out that government schools will be reopening in 2-3 weeks. This is after the ACT having had only one COVID-19 case in a population of over 400,000 in the last 10 days or so.

The kids have been doing moderately well with online schooling, but the boys are both agile and smart enough to be able to sneak game time when they should be doing assignments or taking part in video conferences. Plus they've had few opportunities to get much outside time. So it'll be good for their brains and bodies to get back to school.

Then, tonight I had to go down to the supermarket for some late evening shopping. The social distancing markers are still in place inside the shop, but they've scrapped the entry queue to limit customer numbers at the entrance.

Such small changes in the grand scheme of things, but it's a wonderful feeling to have a loosening of restrictions for once.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: gillianren on May 07, 2020, 10:42:53 AM
The park down the street from us has opened, I believe.  It's not much of one--just a boat launch, really, as we live near a lake--but I might walk over there with the kids later today.  I've got a couple of friends arguing for considerably loosened restrictions, but we won't be able to open even to our governor's proposed smallest easing of restrictions until we've got considerably more testing available.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Ranb on May 07, 2020, 09:30:32 PM
The Tahuya Forest in western WA was reopened yesterday.  ATV riding for me this weekend!
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: raven on May 08, 2020, 03:43:42 AM
Can't wait for the Canada/US borders reopen, so I can visit my American boyfriend. And, yes, this does make me the Canadian girlfriend trope. ;D
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Obviousman on May 08, 2020, 05:39:29 AM
I can't wait for the borders to open so I can.... So I can...... ah, bugger. Nothing to do!
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: gillianren on May 08, 2020, 12:11:53 PM
A friend of a friend said yesterday that the whole "Bill Gates is Satan" thing wasn't made up, because it was in the Book of Revelation.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: raven on May 08, 2020, 08:59:50 PM
A friend of a friend said yesterday that the whole "Bill Gates is Satan" thing wasn't made up, because it was in the Book of Revelation.
"And lo, the angel broke the rainbow seal, and out came a man of nerdy mien, his eyes covered in crystal, and a dorkish mode to his short locks. He would bring unity yet division to computation, bringing windows to the world, and as many would curse as would praise his works." Revelations 3:11.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Peter B on May 08, 2020, 09:38:03 PM
A friend of a friend said yesterday that the whole "Bill Gates is Satan" thing wasn't made up, because it was in the Book of Revelation.
"And lo, the angel broke the rainbow seal, and out came a man of nerdy mien, his eyes covered in crystal, and a dorkish mode to his short locks. He would bring unity yet division to computation, bringing windows to the world, and as many would curse as would praise his works." Revelations 3:11.

Ah yes, I'd recognise MS Bible anywhere...
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: JayUtah on May 09, 2020, 12:44:21 PM
Ah yes, I'd recognise MS Bible anywhere...

In the beginning was the Word.  Then the Excel  Then the Powerpoint.  Then the Outlook.  And there was great rejoicing.  (Yay!)

I love how everyone thinks Microsoft invented word processing.  Long before it was WordPerfect, a product out of my home state (although from the valley to the south.)  It ran in text mode on MS-DOS and was the go-to product for many years.  I mention it because the former WordPerfect campus has been recycled into offices and headquarters for so many companies since then.  Adobe even occupied it for a while.  It's the cathedral of Silicon Slopes.  Its tenants at any time literally only have to say, "We're in the former WordPerfect offices," and everyone instantly knows where you are and how to get there.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: JayUtah on May 09, 2020, 01:20:19 PM
I've got a couple of friends arguing for considerably loosened restrictions, but we won't be able to open even to our governor's proposed smallest easing of restrictions until we've got considerably more testing available.

At present I think there's only one state that has looser restrictions than Utah:  Tennessee, if memory serves.  All public spaces are open, subject to the two-meter ("six feet") separation and cloth mask guidelines.  In most public places, the separation still happens.  Mask-wearing is sporadic.  Businesses that can accommodate the two-meter separation may receive customers, including restaurants and bars.  We're one of the States whose Governor did not issue a stay-at-home order, although our city and county did.  They expired May 1, replaced by lesser restrictions.  Because our population is highly concentrated into a strip of four counties, a statewide order doesn't make a lot of sense.  Except that only three of the four populous counties quarantined their inhabitants.  That's the county that made national headlines for COVID-19 clusters at two businesses.  Their owners forced employees to come to work even after testing positive.  That's the kind of thing that makes you facepalm, if you were allowed to touch your face.

Sadly our curve is not flattening.  But it was relatively flat to start with.  We've had a very low infection rate and a very low mortality rate.  The present trend assures us that we will have enough hospital beds to treat the infected.  And we have a surplus of testing capacity.  The problem, of course, is that this is American and few people can afford to go to the hospital.  So those criteria for reopening the state are suspiciously biased in favor of well-off business owners.  Thankfully my company's criteria for resuming non-critical onsite labor is based on a gateway criterion worked out with our state epidemiologist.  We require 14 consecutive days of non-increasing positive test rates.  We'll consider a staged reintegration at that time. I have to say it's such a blessing to have a company populated by people who know implicitly how to trust science, who pay attention to data, and who are already fanatics about cleanliness and compliance.  It makes it so much easier to stomach the chaos I see elsewhere around me.

Sadly all the hiking trails near the city are jam-packed, and distancing is not happening.  It really can't.  You can't go six feet off the trail in most cases without plummeting.  However our air quality is amazingly good.  We suffer normally from chronic pollution, due to the geography of our valley.  Ironically, because this results in year-round respiratory complaints, our hospitals are disproportionately endowed with ventilators.  Luckily it's easy to throw the dogs in the car and drive out to places where there simply are no other people.  Folks on the coasts don't often get that.  There are big chunks of Utah that the USAF uses for target practice.  That's the sort of wide-open spaces we have available when you need to stay apart from people.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: apollo16uvc on May 09, 2020, 02:46:18 PM
I think the virus will be virtually gone from the Netherlands in 1, at most 2 months. At the rate new cases and deaths are currently decreasing.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: JayUtah on May 09, 2020, 08:23:55 PM
I think the virus will be virtually gone from the Netherlands in 1, at most 2 months. At the rate new cases and deaths are currently decreasing.

That's really good news.  We Americans these days are so accustomed to a depressing, acerbic, and contentious news cycle.  Glimmers of hope are welcome.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Zakalwe on May 10, 2020, 09:36:48 AM
I think the virus will be virtually gone from the Netherlands in 1, at most 2 months. At the rate new cases and deaths are currently decreasing.

All of which is great news. However, until we get an effective treatment or vaccine then the COVI-19 can and will return. You cannot maintain a hard lock down indefinitely, and it only takes on infectious person on an inbound flight to lick the whole thing off again, UNLESS you have a highly efficient contact tracing and testing environment in place.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: JayUtah on May 10, 2020, 11:56:06 AM
I'm hoping that some of the behaviors such as hand-washing, distancing, and mask-wearing will have more of a lasting effect at blunting the inevitable autumn return.  Until this illness, Americans looked very askance at people wearing filtration masks in public.  And, believe it or not, I currently get yelled things from cars while I'm walking on the street with my N95 mask on.  Here's what's funny:  I mentioned out temperature inversions that make us one of the most polluted cities during winter.  When people wear filtration masks voluntarily during these periods, people don't really mind.  But now that we're being told to wear them, there's not just stubborn resistance but active shaming.

So maybe the mask-wearing won't persist.  But maybe people will have learned some sort of lesson.

Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: gillianren on May 10, 2020, 01:06:27 PM
I know a lot of my friends are planning to keep their cloth masks for later, when they have colds.  I'm also definitely looking at fire season--my handmade mask won't be perfect for that, but it'll be better than nothing.  Especially because the ones I make have an opening to put a filter into.  (Side note, if anyone is in need, send me a message and we'll work something out.)  Mask use is far from universal here in Washington State, which may well be why my best friend has had to get tested and may be positive (she hasn't gotten the results yet), but we're flattening our curve more than a lot of other states.  It's nice to have an intelligent governor.

Meanwhile, I am left wondering what our new neighbourhood sounds like when there isn't a pandemic--I don't think we'll ever be that loud, except noise drifting from the nearby lake, but we moved into a house last month.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Britmax on May 11, 2020, 07:19:14 AM
Ah yes, I'd recognise MS Bible anywhere...

In the beginning was the Word.  Then the Excel  Then the Powerpoint.  Then the Outlook.  And there was great rejoicing.  (Yay!)

I love how everyone thinks Microsoft invented word processing.  Long before it was WordPerfect, a product out of my home state (although from the valley to the south.)  It ran in text mode on MS-DOS and was the go-to product for many years.  I mention it because the former WordPerfect campus has been recycled into offices and headquarters for so many companies since then.  Adobe even occupied it for a while.  It's the cathedral of Silicon Slopes.  Its tenants at any time literally only have to say, "We're in the former WordPerfect offices," and everyone instantly knows where you are and how to get there.

Yes, the novel Bomber, by the British author Len Deighton, has claimed to be the first written out on a word processer. I first bought a copy with the prize money for something modest I did at school, the year it was published, 1970. Great book, by the way. Without undue added drama it captures the indiscriminate nature of industrialised warfare. Everyone should read it. 
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: gillianren on May 11, 2020, 12:11:34 PM
Good news--my best friend tested negative.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Obviousman on May 11, 2020, 04:20:31 PM
Good to hear.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: raven on May 11, 2020, 07:47:43 PM
Awesome, for both your friend, you, and their other loved ones! :D
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: gillianren on May 12, 2020, 12:00:51 PM
Her mom's a midwife, and while I don't think they've had any close contact since this began--she lives with her husband and a roommate, not her mom--it doesn't take much imagination to be terrified by the potential consequences.  Actually, I need to sit down and make masks for her mom at some point soon.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason Thompson on May 14, 2020, 08:53:58 AM
I have a question for American members here. I keep seeing reports of a vocal (and violent) minority demanding their 'right' to go into a store without a mask. I'm wondering how that really works in the US. Here in the UK you do not have any 'right' to enter any store, pub or restaurant. They are considered the private property of the owner and the opening to the public is entirely at their discretion. Many have signs up pointing out that management reserve the right to refuse service or eject anyone for any reason. If they say you can't go in without a mask, shirt, shoes or without being dressed up as Mickey Mouse, that's the rule and you don't get to contest it, nor is there any legal basis on which you may do so. Is it different in the US or are these people just idiots who think living in a 'free' world means they can literally do what they want?
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Zakalwe on May 14, 2020, 09:34:55 AM
I have a question for American members here. I keep seeing reports of a vocal (and violent) minority demanding their 'right' to go into a store without a mask. I'm wondering how that really works in the US. Here in the UK you do not have any 'right' to enter any store, pub or restaurant. They are considered the private property of the owner and the opening to the public is entirely at their discretion. Many have signs up pointing out that management reserve the right to refuse service or eject anyone for any reason. If they say you can't go in without a mask, shirt, shoes or without being dressed up as Mickey Mouse, that's the rule and you don't get to contest it, nor is there any legal basis on which you may do so. Is it different in the US or are these people just idiots who think living in a 'free' world means they can literally do what they want?

The same idiots want to arm themselves like a mercenary to "protect their family", but won't wear a simple mask to do the same.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: JayUtah on May 14, 2020, 10:12:30 AM
Places of business in the U.S. are private property as well, and generally have the right to refuse entry or service to anyone.  However, the private owner of a "public place of accommodation" is governed by the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Americans With Disabilities Act of 1990.  These set forth certain traits for individuals on which basis service may not be denied -- race, color, religion, national origin, and disability.  However, members of these classes may be denied service on other grounds that are otherwise equally applied.  A private business owner is entirely within his rights to refuse entry to people who do not wear masks, as long as that rule applies to everyone who seeks entrance.  Previous requirements, for example to wear shirts and shoes, did not pose any legal problem.  In fact, during the Halloween season some businesses disallow costume masks without incident.  A business can require you to wear one, or not to wear one, as their discretion demands.

Vocal and violent protesters in the U.S. who claim a right to enter private property without complying with its proprietor's requirements are idiots.  I don't know if their beliefs in non-existent rights is a universal "I can do whatever I want at any time," but they certainly seem to give that impression.  And it is on par with a certain American brand of individualism that earns Americans such a disdainful reputation abroad.  Here, of course, we have a sensationalist media and a childish President egging the protesters on.  And there was a tragic case recently where the door guard of a thrift store was shot and killed for refusing entry to people not wearing a mask.  That's a different American problem, but it explains in part why there are so many reports of this kind of exceptionalism.

While individualism is a broad American trait, most Americans will not carry it to the comical extent you see emphasized in the media.  As Zakalwe notes, the extremists rarely have a coherent point.  The reasons given for having a small private arsenal don't seem to extent to taking basic precautions.  And the "only cowards wear masks" argument doesn't jive with their apparently fearful need to arm themselves for every occasion.  (Brandishing firearms as you see these nuts do is about intimidation, not "protection.")  Most Americans are courteous and responsible, but the fanatics are the ones who attract the attention and set the tone by which their more reasonable peers are judged.  The objection to wearing a mask is not the inconvenience or discomfort of it, or the imagined right to patronize businesses while disregarding the rights of their owners.  They object to doing something simply because they've been told to do it.  As I said previously, our happy little valley is home to some notorious wintertime pollution.  During the worst of it, some people commonly wear filtration masks.  They do it voluntarily.  But now because it's a requirement imposed by government authority or other citizens, we have mask-shaming.  And that leads to a somewhat darker side of the story.  Wearing masks in public is "what the Chinese do," and the ongoing conspiracy theory requires blaming China for this mess.  Not wearing masks while the Chinese have to is one of the ways the fanatic fringe tries to show its defiance in the face of the designated enemy.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason Thompson on May 14, 2020, 11:25:44 AM
Places of business in the U.S. are private property as well, and generally have the right to refuse entry or service to anyone.  However, the private owner of a "public place of accommodation" is governed by the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Americans With Disabilities Act of 1990.  These set forth certain traits for individuals on which basis service may not be denied -- race, color, religion, national origin, and disability.  However, members of these classes may be denied service on other grounds that are otherwise equally applied.

Yes, here we have the Equalities Act 2010 which serves the same purpose. When I said the owner reserves the right to refuse service or entry for any reason, I should have qualified it by saying those reasons have to be valid and not contravene the Equalities Act 2010. You can't deny entry on the basis of race, disability etc, but you can deny entry to soeone with those protected characterisitics if they're being a dick, or inappropriately dressed, or any other reason that would get someone else refused entry as well.

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Vocal and violent protesters in the U.S. who claim a right to enter private property without complying with its proprietor's requirements are idiots.

OK, that's what I thought.

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While individualism is a broad American trait, most Americans will not carry it to the comical extent you see emphasized in the media.

Oh yes, I fully appreciate that the majority are sensible and law-abiding. The media always presents a reversing mirror to any society, in that it emphasises the exceptional and sensational above the common and mundane.

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(Brandishing firearms as you see these nuts do is about intimidation, not "protection.")

As a Brit, the whole notion that you need a firearm for 'protection' seems mad to me. Whatever else you may say about our society, I have never felt sufficiently threatened here that I feel the need to carry a lethal weapon around or have one in the house.

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They object to doing something simply because they've been told to do it.

I just posted on Twitter that it seems to me this is more about the 'newness' of the restriction than anything else. We grow up with restrictions. Where we can smoke, having to wear a seatbelt, age limits on purchasing alcohol and pharmaceuticals, dress codes and so on, and we accept them as normal and sensible, just how life is. Then along come a new one and suddenly a small subset of society start whining about losing their freedoms, as if we're one sensible restriction away from a totalitarian state.

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Wearing masks in public is "what the Chinese do," and the ongoing conspiracy theory requires blaming China for this mess.

Yes, I have noticed that disturbing theme. And yet even that is an incoherent pile of nonsense, because even if China was responsible for the pandemic, the actions taken in any country affected are entirely that country's responsibility. Whatever China did or did not do, once the virus entered the US it was entirely within the power of the US Federal and State govenments, and its population, to control its spread. Blaming China for the current situation is like blaming the electricity company for the electrical fire in your house because they're the ones supplying the electricity, even though you did all that DIY re-wiring and skipped over basic stuff like grounding and insulation and not using flammable materials in certain areas.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: JayUtah on May 14, 2020, 03:52:39 PM
As a Brit, the whole notion that you need a firearm for 'protection' seems mad to me.

As I recall, the British and Americans did have a fairly strong disagreement on that issue at one point.  ;D

The social, legal, historical, and ethical discussion of the 2nd Amendment could fill volumes.  And it has.  I live not too far from places where having a firearm to defend yourself against dangerous animals is often considered prudent, although not always necessary.  And ranchers will generally always carry firearms in order to ward off predators.  The American frontier is still in many ways a frontier.  But obviously this is not the kind of protection spoken of by the sort of people you refer to.  Nor do people who have a more legitimate need for firearms generally behave in the stupid, braggartly way you often see depicted.

I myself have owned a few firearms.  I had a "Navy Six" revolver I built from a kit as a teenager.  I only ever used it for target shooting, and soon grew bored with it and sold it.  I would never consider it protection, because it certainly didn't help Gen. Custer very well in that duty.  And as a smoothbore pistol, it wasn't very adept at hitting targets either.  And then some target-shooting rifles, also as a teenager.  Not for protection, unless you consider paper targets especially menacing.  But I outgrew interest in them too.  I can shoot well, but I see no need for me to own a firearm.

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I just posted on Twitter that it seems to me this is more about the 'newness' of the restriction than anything else.

That's insightful.  I remember similar grumbling when wearing seat belts in cars became mandatory.

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Wearing masks in public is "what the Chinese do," and the ongoing conspiracy theory requires blaming China for this mess.

Indeed, it's starting to be quite a task to separate the pandemic discussion from the American politics discussion.  Even without the pandemic and its conspiracy theories, there was mild xenophobia.  You saw someone wearing a filtration mask and he looked vaguely of Asian descent, and you just wrote it off as their culture.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Jason Thompson on May 14, 2020, 04:47:58 PM
As a Brit, the whole notion that you need a firearm for 'protection' seems mad to me.

As I recall, the British and Americans did have a fairly strong disagreement on that issue at one point.  ;D

Yeah. You got your independence and look what you did with it! Loads of memes circulating around here about revoking your independence after Trump got elected.

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The social, legal, historical, and ethical discussion of the 2nd Amendment could fill volumes.  And it has.

Indeed, and I certainly don't propose to get into a debate about gun control issues.

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I live not too far from places where having a firearm to defend yourself against dangerous animals is often considered prudent, although not always necessary.  And ranchers will generally always carry firearms in order to ward off predators.  The American frontier is still in many ways a frontier.

Of course, and here we still have people using guns for legitimate purposes such as protection of livestock from predators and game hunting. No issues there. I'm referring to urban settings. Where I live the largest predator I'm likely to encounter is a fox, and I sure as hell don't need a firearm to see one off. The idea of needing a firearm for home defence just doesn't make sense to me. Part of that is probably because, since we do have strict gun control here, I am unlikely to ever need to defend myself against an assailant carrying a firearm.

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But obviously this is not the kind of protection spoken of by the sort of people you refer to.  Nor do people who have a more legitimate need for firearms generally behave in the stupid, braggartly way you often see depicted.

I certainly don't doubt it. I'm certain that the majority of firearm owners are responsible and follow sensible precautions. The media with its distorting mirror means of course that these people are not newsworthy, so all I hear about is the idiots waving their guns around at city hall, school shootings or accidentally shooting their family through carelessness.

Personally I have never fired a real firearm. I have held a few, mostly deactivated, and I can certainly appreciate them as a piece of engineering, but that's as far as it goes. Air guns are the most offensive weapon I have ever fired. And frankly I was pretty crap at it, so...

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I just posted on Twitter that it seems to me this is more about the 'newness' of the restriction than anything else.

That's insightful.  I remember similar grumbling when wearing seat belts in cars became mandatory.

When the smoking ban in public places was introduced there was uproar from a certain group of smokers who, like the anti-mask brigade now, couldn't grasp that it wasn't about them, and they weren't having their right to smoke taken away, just restricted for the health of others. As a lifelong non-smoker I was delighted by it.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: JayUtah on May 14, 2020, 05:24:46 PM
Yeah. You got your independence and look what you did with it! Loads of memes circulating around here about revoking your independence after Trump got elected.

So you know my avatar is me in a production of 1776.  One of the other actors in that play has now gone on to Broadway as a swing player in Hamilton.  He occasionally gets to play King George III.  That seems suddenly relevant.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: gillianren on May 15, 2020, 11:51:26 AM
Where I live the largest predator I'm likely to encounter is a fox, and I sure as hell don't need a firearm to see one off.

Even in places where I've regularly seen coyotes, you don't need a gun to scare them off.  They're smart enough to know that you might have a gun, and they're not willing to take the risk.  Maybe it's different in true wilderness, but not in suburban LA County!

Yesterday, Irene had an appointment with her audiologist.  (She's fine; she's got a check-up in six months, and her ears now drain the way they're supposed to.)  We'd gotten a call some time ago telling us about the social distancing requirements they were using at the office.  You call up to the office to let them know you're there.  The waiting room is closed.  In fact, they took our temperatures and asked us basic health questions before letting us in.  And, yes, someone who had presumably gotten the same phone call as we did ignored all that, and also wasn't wearing a mask.  I'd even made sized-to-fit masks for the kids, though we couldn't keep Irene's on because it turns out three-year-olds aren't interested in public safety.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Peter B on May 15, 2020, 10:19:35 PM
A sad but interesting story about the effect of COVID-19 on a small town in (American) Georgia:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-16/coronavirus-second-wave-hits-rural-america/12251058

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At the time of writing, Cuthbert and the surrounding Randolph County (total population: 6,700) reported 169 confirmed cases and 21 deaths.

That may seem like a drop in the bucket in a country with 84,000 deaths and counting.

But the speed with which the virus took over the town meant that for a few days in April, Randolph County had the highest per capita death rate in America.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Peter B on May 15, 2020, 10:31:24 PM
This page shows interesting statistics about the virus's effect in various countries around the world:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-13/coronavirus-numbers-worldwide-data-tracking-charts/12107500?nw=0

Usefully, it's updated daily.

The chart that I notice particularly is a little over half way down, labelled Deaths by Population (Log scale). It shows two very distinct groups of countries - one group where early lockdowns appear to have worked, and another group where either lockdowns haven't been used or were imposed slowly or late or weren't effective.

Another one near the bottom shows that Autocrats aren't necessarily better at dealing with coronavirus.

One of the things that frustrates me about so many of the conspiracy theorists over at UM is that they see the effects of and responses to the virus solely through the eyes of the USA or the UK, as though it's having no impact anywhere else (apart from the evil commies in China). What this page shows is that, like so many things in the world, things are complex and not binary.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: gillianren on May 16, 2020, 10:49:02 AM
One of the last big events of the season here has already been canceled.  Seriously, if you can afford to buy from a small artist/artisan, please do--they need the money.  My friend the potter didn't get any of the small business grants, presumably because that money was busy going to large publicly traded companies instead of a mother and daughter business. 
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: JayUtah on May 16, 2020, 01:14:30 PM
Our Governor recently downgraded our risk level to Low, allowing for more activity.  The only exemption is Salt Lake City, which is still at Medium.  Here's a helpful graphic.  This is a simplified view of the Salt Lake Valley (geologically) looking northward.

(https://static-sothebys-summitsir-production.gtsstatic.net/resources/v_4_19_0_70/siteresources/my%20folder/images/maps/salt-lake-valley-community-map.jpg)

The developed area is, politically, Salt Lake County.  My house is pretty much where the little red star is, but I have business interests, offices, and locations in that whole developed area (as well as outside the picture to the north and south).  As you can see, it's a heavily populated county, with lots of commerce throughout.  The city is just the cluster of buildings near the red star.  And that's the only place the Governor has allowed to remain at a higher level of quarantining and protection.  The Mayor of Salt Lake County requested exemption, but the Governor denied her.  There are places in the "county" that are almost as densely occupied on any given day as the downtown area.  And people come in and out of the city on a daily basis.  Now all those people in the county who are more likely to communicate infection amongst themselves due to relaxed restrictions, are more likely to bring it into the city.

I can understand the logic behind not having a statewide order.  There are parts of Utah were you could literally set off a nuclear bomb and no one would notice.  But the difference in policy between the cities and the counties of our most populous areas simply makes no sense.  If the leader of a populous county says, "No, we would like to continue taking precautions," and your Governor says, "No, we're not going to let you do that," you wonder what the Governor is thinking.  He is not running for re-election.  His Lt. Governor, a closeted Trump toady, is running for that party.  And I'm friends with the Democratic candidate and his lovely wife.  He admires me for my cocktail-making skills, so maybe I can score a political appointment as Secretary of Alcoholic Beverage Control.  (Yes, in Utah that's a cabinet-level position.)

Gillianren, I'm relieved that your friend tested negative.  So far only two of my friends have had COVID-19, and they contracted it in New York.  Luckily they are young and very fit (professional ballet dancers) so they recovered without requiring hospitalization.  Sadly one of our business patriarchs was not so lucky.  I didn't know him personally, except maybe for a handshake at one point.  But he was well respected and beloved.  He was in the category of age and health that made him particularly susceptible.  Two years ago I had one of the milder viral xARS illnesses.  It was the sickest I can remember ever being, including pneumonia.  I have absolutely no desire to endure COVID-19.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: gillianren on May 17, 2020, 11:36:27 AM
This is the same friend who rates 10 on the pain scale as "the time my appendix burst," so I'm not sure how it would have rated on her scale--depends on the severity, I suppose.  But if she'd had a relatively mild case, I wonder if it would've only gone to reinforce our faire boss's conspiracism in that department.  He's of the "we should open the economy because we're grown-ups and can do all this without being told" strain, but the only reason he wears a mask around is that he knows what his daughter (who's in her 20s) would do to him if she found out he wasn't.  Naturally, he sees no contradiction there.  And he's immunocompromised and has bad lungs.  So.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: Allan F on May 17, 2020, 11:43:16 AM
Perhaps a coping strategy? He might feel the "I'm invulnerable"-attitude gives him a emotional relief from the subconscious fear he must have.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: gillianren on May 18, 2020, 11:14:41 AM
Well, yesterday, he posted something about how all these people were related by marriage that was really, really not true (you can't be married to Adam Schiff's sister if Adam Schiff doesn't have a sister!), and he used the word "triggered" to describe the reactions of the five or ten people who corrected him and asked him to fact-check before posting, so yeah.  He's a really talented artisan, and I will never stop promoting his work, but ye Gods, his politics.
Title: Re: COVID-19
Post by: JayUtah on July 06, 2020, 11:51:34 PM
So you know my avatar is me in a production of 1776.  One of the other actors in that play has now gone on to Broadway as a swing player in Hamilton.  He occasionally gets to play King George III.  That seems suddenly relevant.

If you're lucky enough to be watching Hamilton on Disney+, the person I'm referring to plays Samuel Seabury, the Anglican bishop.  His bit is right before the first appearance of King George III.