ApolloHoax.net
Off Topic => General Discussion => Topic started by: Dalhousie on November 23, 2020, 04:47:34 PM
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The Chang'e 5 lunar sample return mission launched successfully from the Wenchang launch site a short time ago. I watched the live broadcast which can be seen here
Launch is from 55 minutes in.
Landing will be ~November 27, and return to earth ~December 16–17. Landing site is the Mons Rumker region of Oceanus Procellarum, known for it's cluster of small volcanic domes.
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I utterly and sincerely wish them the best. We haven't had new samples from the moon since Luna 24 in 1976, far too long.
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I very much want this mission to succeed. Space exploration works best when every space program is constantly pushing its colleagues to attempt bold mission. Plus I really admire the Long March 5. Smooth LOX/LH2 engine starts, rock-solid guidance, flawless staging -- I have to admit it looked like a sweet ride.
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I hope the landing will be broadcast live, like Chang'e 3/Yutu 1, which I watched on a HD TV in Thailand. Chang'e 4/Yutu was not, sadly. Although when released later it looked amazing.
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Timeline, AFAIK
LOI ( Lunar orbital insertion) Saturday 28th November
Moon Landing ( Mons Rumker area, Ocean of Storms ) 20:30 UTC Sunday 29th November.
Lift Off from Moon Wednesday December 2
rendezvous and docking Lunar module and command service module Friday 4th December
TEI ( Trans Earth Injection ) Thursday December 10 - 112 hour flight.
Landing ( China) Tuesday 15 December
(from China space exploration group, FB)
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LOI ( Lunar orbital insertion) was at 14:15 UTC Saturday 28th November.
Moon Landing now 20:30 UTC Monday 30th November
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LOI ( Lunar orbital insertion) was at 14:15 UTC Saturday 28th November.
Moon Landing now 20:30 UTC Monday 30th November
Can you tell us the source of your info on Chang'e 5 please? All the sites I've been able to find still have it down for Sunday, and don't have any detailed timetable for other mission phases. Even the CNSA site is vague on timings (but then they always are).
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LOI ( Lunar orbital insertion) was at 14:15 UTC Saturday 28th November.
Moon Landing now 20:30 UTC Monday 30th November
Can you tell us the source of your info on Chang'e 5 please? All the sites I've been able to find still have it down for Sunday, and don't have any detailed timetable for other mission phases. Even the CNSA site is vague on timings (but then they always are).
My main sources of information are this forum on NASASpaceflight
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=33431.msg2159855;boardseen#new
Plus this one on FB https://www.facebook.com/groups/36149951613
Both are quick off the mark
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The lander has separated from the orbiter
https://weibo.com/5616492130/JwgJHtcjC?from=page_1005055616492130_profile&wvr=6&mod=weibotime&type=comment
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See also https://news.cgtn.com/news/2020-11-30/China-s-Chang-e-5-probe-to-execute-soft-landing-on-the-moon-VPBqsJu66k/index.html
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Great stuff! Thanks @Dalhousie for the info - I've been following this mission closely, and keen to see all the steps coming together to get the sample and return it. Fingers crossed...
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No worries molesworth!
Updated timeline from "Cosmic Penguin" on twitter.
https://twitter.com/Cosmic_Penguin/status/1333308272795811845?s=19
Start of lander power descent: Dec. 1st 14:58
**LANDING ON LUNAR SURFACE**: Dec. 1st 15:13
Drilling of lunar sub-surface samples: Dec. 1st 17:15~19:45
Scooping of lunar surface samples: Dec. 1st 21:14 ~ Dec. 2nd 19:35
**LAUNCH OF LANDER ASCENT STAGE**: Dec. 3rd 15:10
Ascent stage solar arrays deploy: Dec. 3rd 15:27
Ascent stage phasing burns: Dec. 3rd 22:05, Dec. 4th 08:04, Dec. 4th 19:46, Dec. 5th 11:54
Start of ascent stage-orbiter rendezvous: Dec. 5th 18:14
**ASCENT STAGE-ORBITER DOCKING**: Dec. 5th 21:40
Completion of sample transfer: Dec. 5th 22:01
Orbiter/Return Capsule separation from ascent stage: Dec. 6th 04:35
Orbiter phasing burns 1-3: Nov. 30th 23:59, Dec. 1st 20:22, Dec. 2nd 14:42
Forward structure separation: Dec. 2nd 19:46
Orbiter phasing burn 4: Dec. 3rd 03:35
TEI.....
All times UTC.
Just to note that CSNA currently have seven operational spacecraft on or around the Moon. These are: Chang'e-3 lander, Chang'e-4 lander and Yutu-2 rover, Queqiao relay satellite, CE-5 T1 orbiter, CE5 orbiter and the CE-5 lander/ascent vehicle.
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Are those times ZULU (UTC)? or Beijing local?
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Thanks @Dalhousie!
@Obviousman - they're UTC, so not the middle of the night for me at least :-)
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Thanks @Dalhousie!
@Obviousman - they're UTC, so not the middle of the night for me at least :-)
They are for me... :'(
Or, to quote Apollo 13, "very, very AM"
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0200 in the morning for me; I'll wait for the replay...
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Several amateur tracking stations are also following the flight. Scott Tilley (twitter @coastal8049) and Daniel Estévez (@ea4gpz) have made impressive strides in understanding the orbital maneuvers and telemetry format, respectively.
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Several amateur tracking stations are also following the flight. Scott Tilley (twitter @coastal8049) and Daniel Estévez (@ea4gpz) have made impressive strides in understanding the orbital maneuvers and telemetry format, respectively.
With considerable accuracy too. Some have successfully downloaded engineering imagery being transmitted
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Makes a nice inadvertent Birthday Present for moi, the landing* happening on my birthday.
*fingers, toes , and eyes crossed
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Makes a nice inadvertent Birthday Present for moi, the landing* happening on my birthday.
*fingers, toes , and eyes crossed
Excellent. Happy Birthday to you! Have a great day of it :-)
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Timeline here, spanish and english, countdowns should update to your local time zone
http://win98.altervista.org/space/exploration/change5countdown.html
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Excellent! A successful landing - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-55148998
I was hoping there would be a live stream, but I guess they maybe decided against it in case of a failure. I'm hoping they might show the sampling and lift-off though, as they should be less risky.
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Timeline here, spanish and english, countdowns should update to your local time zone
http://win98.altervista.org/space/exploration/change5countdown.html
Italian, actually. I speak Italian fairly fluently, and it surprising me there's no translation for things such as "phasing burn."
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Seems to have landed today to begin the drilling/scooping operations.
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Seems to have landed today to begin the drilling/scooping operations.
Live broadcast of sample collection attempt begins in two hours
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edited highlights of scoop operation and sample deposition into container https://weibo.com/tv/v/4577649704763404
Stop motion footage of drill https://weibo.com/tv/v/4577643832737843
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BEIJING, Dec. 2 (Xinhua) -- China's Chang'e-5 probe has collected moon samples, the China National Space Administration (CNSA) announced Wednesday.
The lander-ascender combination of Chang'e-5 has finished the tasks of moon sample drilling and packaging at 4:53 a.m. Wednesday.
It is gathering samples from the surface as planned.
After successfully landing on the near side of the moon late Tuesday, the Chang'e-5 probe carried out preparation work including unfolding solar wings.
The probe adopts two methods of moon sampling, including using drills to collect samples and gathering samples from the surface with a mechanical arm.
http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2020-12/02/c_139557795.htm
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I'm curious to see how they store the drill samples - pointing out the difficulty of doing that robotically has long been part of my process of explaining how we know the Apollo samples were collected by people and not robots.
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I'm curious to see how they store the drill samples - pointing out the difficulty of doing that robotically has long been part of my process of explaining how we know the Apollo samples were collected by people and not robots.
I always considered it to be a question of scale. Robotically collected Lunar samples were returned to Earth by the Soviets in the 1970s.. However they collected something like 380 grams. The Apollo samples had a total mass of three orders of magnitude higher.
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I'm curious to see how they store the drill samples - pointing out the difficulty of doing that robotically has long been part of my process of explaining how we know the Apollo samples were collected by people and not robots.
I always considered it to be a question of scale. Robotically collected Lunar samples were returned to Earth by the Soviets in the 1970s.. However they collected something like 380 grams. The Apollo samples had a total mass of three orders of magnitude higher.
Sorry, I meant specifically the drill samples. They're talking about drilling down 2 metres. So does that mean they're planning to somehow shoehorn a 2 metre sample tube into their ascent vehicle, or drill out shorter segments, or something else? Apollo 15 drilled down a little further, and it's been easy to explain how it simply wasn't practical for the robot technology of the time to retrieve such a long sample and transport it back to Earth - hence the need for astronauts.
So how is Chang'e 5 going to do something which required people at the time of Apollo?
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Sorry, I meant specifically the drill samples. They're talking about drilling down 2 metres. So does that mean they're planning to somehow shoehorn a 2 metre sample tube into their ascent vehicle, or drill out shorter segments, or something else? Apollo 15 drilled down a little further, and it's been easy to explain how it simply wasn't practical for the robot technology of the time to retrieve such a long sample and transport it back to Earth - hence the need for astronauts.
So how is Chang'e 5 going to do something which required people at the time of Apollo?
So how is Chang'e 5 going to do something which required people at the time of Apollo?
This was solved by Luna 24. The drill had a bag attachment and the sample was coiled up inside the return module.
https://curator.jsc.nasa.gov/lunar/lsc/luna24core.pdf
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I'm curious to see how they store the drill samples - pointing out the difficulty of doing that robotically has long been part of my process of explaining how we know the Apollo samples were collected by people and not robots.
I always considered it to be a question of scale. Robotically collected Lunar samples were returned to Earth by the Soviets in the 1970s.. However they collected something like 380 grams. The Apollo samples had a total mass of three orders of magnitude higher.
Sorry, I meant specifically the drill samples. They're talking about drilling down 2 metres. So does that mean they're planning to somehow shoehorn a 2 metre sample tube into their ascent vehicle, or drill out shorter segments, or something else? Apollo 15 drilled down a little further, and it's been easy to explain how it simply wasn't practical for the robot technology of the time to retrieve such a long sample and transport it back to Earth - hence the need for astronauts.
So how is Chang'e 5 going to do something which required people at the time of Apollo?
Gotcha.Thanks for the correction.
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One of Apollo's problems, I recall, was that the core sampler would get stuck. The astronauts would have to wiggle it around and do other non-robot stuff to get the drill to operate again. Contingencies like that are notoriously difficult to engineer for because you often don't know you have a problem until your robot is in the environment.
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One of Apollo's problems, I recall, was that the core sampler would get stuck. The astronauts would have to wiggle it around and do other non-robot stuff to get the drill to operate again. Contingencies like that are notoriously difficult to engineer for because you often don't know you have a problem until your robot is in the environment.
Yes I remember the videos of the drilling operation. Perhaps a more powerful motor may have been able to penetrate deeper. Of course that would mean more torque at the astronauts hands, that they may not have been able to combat. I hope that the system was built with the Apollo history built in.
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One of Apollo's problems, I recall, was that the core sampler would get stuck. The astronauts would have to wiggle it around and do other non-robot stuff to get the drill to operate again. Contingencies like that are notoriously difficult to engineer for because you often don't know you have a problem until your robot is in the environment.
“Look at that baby go!”
*beat*
“Look at that baby stop....”
Charlie Duke on Apollo 16 I believe, when the drill encountered a rock a couple of feet under the surface.
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Of course that would mean more torque at the astronauts hands, that they may not have been able to combat.
Admit it. You want to see an astronaut being flung around in a circle, completely horizontal in the low gravity, having a death grip on the handle of the drill.
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Of course that would mean more torque at the astronauts hands, that they may not have been able to combat.
Admit it. You want to see an astronaut being flung around in a circle, completely horizontal in the low gravity, having a death grip on the handle of the drill.
Like this but with astronauts?
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I'm curious to see how they store the drill samples - pointing out the difficulty of doing that robotically has long been part of my process of explaining how we know the Apollo samples were collected by people and not robots.
I always considered it to be a question of scale. Robotically collected Lunar samples were returned to Earth by the Soviets in the 1970s.. However they collected something like 380 grams. The Apollo samples had a total mass of three orders of magnitude higher.
Sorry, I meant specifically the drill samples. They're talking about drilling down 2 metres. So does that mean they're planning to somehow shoehorn a 2 metre sample tube into their ascent vehicle, or drill out shorter segments, or something else? Apollo 15 drilled down a little further, and it's been easy to explain how it simply wasn't practical for the robot technology of the time to retrieve such a long sample and transport it back to Earth - hence the need for astronauts.
So how is Chang'e 5 going to do something which required people at the time of Apollo?
The Luna sample return missions collected the drill core in a flexible tube that was coiled up inside the return capsule.
https://www.maxuta.com/maxuta/collections/032_pn_space_collectibles/032265_luna_24_model_with_soil_15.jpg
BTW Chang'e 5 is expected to return both core and scoop samples, totalling 2 kg.
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Like this but with astronauts?
Exactly like that, but with astronauts. The flinging of equipment is a nice touch.
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Terminal descent video, video capture of screen unfortunately. About 2.5 times actual speed. Note the brief pause before final descent. This is where the AI is scanning for obstacles.
https://twitter.com/i/status/1333959547979927555
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Of course that would mean more torque at the astronauts hands, that they may not have been able to combat.
Admit it. You want to see an astronaut being flung around in a circle, completely horizontal in the low gravity, having a death grip on the handle of the drill.
It would have been amusing if it wasn't life threatening 240000 miles from medical help.
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http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2020-12/03/c_139560444.htm
BEIJING, Dec. 3 (Xinhua) -- China's Chang'e-5 probe has completed sampling on the moon, and the samples have been sealed inside the spacecraft, the China National Space Administration (CNSA) announced Thursday morning.
Launched on Nov. 24, the spacecraft landed on the north of the Mons Rumker in Oceanus Procellarum, also known as the Ocean of Storms, on the near side of the moon on Dec. 1, tasked with retrieving China's first samples from an extraterrestrial body.
After the spacecraft worked for about 19 hours on the moon, the sampling ended at 10:00 p.m. Wednesday (Beijing Time), and the samples were stowed in a container inside the ascender of the probe as planned, said CNSA.
By using data sent back by the probe, researchers simulated the sampling procedure in a lab, providing an important basis for the operation on the moon.
The lunar regolith penetrating radar and other payloads installed on the lander have carried out scientific exploration as planned and provided information support for sampling.
The probe has withstood temperatures of over 100 degrees Celsius on the lunar surface.
The probe has adopted two methods of moon sampling, including using drills to collect subsurface samples and grabbing samples on the surface with a robotic arm. Diverse samples at different sites have been gathered.
The moon samples have been sealed inside the spacecraft to ensure that they are kept in a vacuum and free from the influence of the external environment during its return to the Earth.
The Chang'e-5 probe is equipped with multiple payloads including a landing camera, panorama camera, lunar regolith penetrating radar and lunar mineralogical spectrometer, which detects lunar surface topography and mineral composition, as well as the moon's shallow subsurface structure.
Before the sample drilling process, the lunar regolith penetrating radar analyzed the subsurface structure in the sampling area, offering data reference for sampling.
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Fingers crossed for launch in 8 hrs or so from now!
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Fingers crossed for launch in 8 hrs or so from now!
Success!
Now for the big ones, first ever autonomous rendezvous, docking and sample transfer in lunar orbit.
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Successful autonomous lunar orbit docking
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Successful autonomous sample transfer in lunar orbit
Now for TEI is about a week and Earth landing on the17th
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They really deserve congratulations for how smoothly this is going. Even with any wrinkles kept out of the limelight, this mission has had a LOT of moving parts, almost an unmanned Apollo, and they've so far pulled it off quite well indeed. Kudos!
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They really deserve congratulations for how smoothly this is going. Even with any wrinkles kept out of the limelight, this mission has had a LOT of moving parts, almost an unmanned Apollo, and they've so far pulled it off quite well indeed. Kudos!
Has there been an announcement of the depth reached by the drill?
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They really deserve congratulations for how smoothly this is going. Even with any wrinkles kept out of the limelight, this mission has had a LOT of moving parts, almost an unmanned Apollo, and they've so far pulled it off quite well indeed. Kudos!
Has there been an announcement of the depth reached by the drill?
Two meters.
https://spaceflightnow.com/2020/12/03/chinas-change-5-sample-return-craft-takes-off-from-the-moon/
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Two meters is impressive for an automated sampler. And I agree the Chinese deserve a standing ovation. This is an incredibly complex mission that is well on the way to succeeding.
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More on the sampler https://www.leonarddavid.com/sampling-the-moons-surface-innovation-precision-and-reliability/
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LROC image of Chang'e 5 on the surface
https://www.space.com/change-5-moon-lander-photo-lunar-reconnaissance-orbiter
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More on the sampler https://www.leonarddavid.com/sampling-the-moons-surface-innovation-precision-and-reliability/
I'm always very impressed by what the Chinese are achieving in spaceflight. They're very secretive about it, but when the information is released it often shows how much they've achieved working almost completely in isolation.
Not long now until the return landing...
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More on the sampler https://www.leonarddavid.com/sampling-the-moons-surface-innovation-precision-and-reliability/
I'm always very impressed by what the Chinese are achieving in spaceflight. They're very secretive about it, but when the information is released it often shows how much they've achieved working almost completely in isolation.
Not long now until the return landing...
I get really tired in the various space fora and social media groups of people trotting out "yeah but stolen technology" arguments. Apart from them not offering proof it was stolen, the obvious response is "well it's notvlike you were doing anything with it".
This mission has been really interesting in many ways, not least of which is a tinfoil lander with no dust on its footpads and an invisible flame doing a link up in orbit ;)
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Yeesh, some people! There's many things I am less than fond of about the Chinese government*, but when it comes to space, space travel, and space exploration, I am a firm and committed internationalist.
No matter who does it, it enriches us all.
*and the Russian and American governments for that matter.
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A video of the scoop in action on Earth
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More on the sampler https://www.leonarddavid.com/sampling-the-moons-surface-innovation-precision-and-reliability/
I'm always very impressed by what the Chinese are achieving in spaceflight. They're very secretive about it, but when the information is released it often shows how much they've achieved working almost completely in isolation.
Not long now until the return landing...
Much less than the old USSR. A great deal of information is released before hand, if you know where to look
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More on the sampler https://www.leonarddavid.com/sampling-the-moons-surface-innovation-precision-and-reliability/
I'm always very impressed by what the Chinese are achieving in spaceflight. They're very secretive about it, but when the information is released it often shows how much they've achieved working almost completely in isolation.
Not long now until the return landing...
Much less than the old USSR. A great deal of information is released before hand, if you know where to look
True, but it does take a bit of digging to find (any good links always appreciated ;-)). I suppose we've become used to having almost instant access to information from NASA, ESA and ISRO, so it's slightly frustrating to not have the same for CNSA as well.
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More on the sampler https://www.leonarddavid.com/sampling-the-moons-surface-innovation-precision-and-reliability/
I'm always very impressed by what the Chinese are achieving in spaceflight. They're very secretive about it, but when the information is released it often shows how much they've achieved working almost completely in isolation.
Not long now until the return landing...
Much less than the old USSR. A great deal of information is released before hand, if you know where to look
True, but it does take a bit of digging to find (any good links always appreciated ;-)). I suppose we've become used to having almost instant access to information from NASA, ESA and ISRO, so it's slightly frustrating to not have the same for CNSA as well.
Actually CNSA releases mission data faster than either ESA or ISRO and CNSA plans are known well in advance. Just because the Euro-American media don't splash them across headlines, does not mean they are not there.
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Actually CNSA releases mission data faster than either ESA or ISRO and CNSA plans are known well in advance. Just because the Euro-American media don't splash them across headlines, does not mean they are not there.
My google-fu must be weak in this specific instance, as I don't have the skinny on CNSA info or announcements :( Any linkifications would be much appreciated, or is it just a matter of better keywords...
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Actually CNSA releases mission data faster than either ESA or ISRO and CNSA plans are known well in advance. Just because the Euro-American media don't splash them across headlines, does not mean they are not there.
My google-fu must be weak in this specific instance, as I don't have the skinny on CNSA info or announcements :( Any linkifications would be much appreciated, or is it just a matter of better keywords...
Way over my head!
The Chinese section of the "NASAspaceflight" forum is my starting place. They have lots of people there who monitor Chinese websites, news services, weibo, etc. From there you can go to the original sources.
I also follow the planetary science journals, papers pop up there from time to time.
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First TEI burn completed at 01:54 UTC today, sending it into a high elliptical lunar orbit ahead of a second burn that will send it towards Earth.
https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/xs4Q7-LDDwMCC6rtZofcqg
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Actually CNSA releases mission data faster than either ESA or ISRO and CNSA plans are known well in advance. Just because the Euro-American media don't splash them across headlines, does not mean they are not there.
My google-fu must be weak in this specific instance, as I don't have the skinny on CNSA info or announcements :( Any linkifications would be much appreciated, or is it just a matter of better keywords...
Way over my head!
The Chinese section of the "NASAspaceflight" forum is my starting place. They have lots of people there who monitor Chinese websites, news services, weibo, etc. From there you can go to the original sources.
I also follow the planetary science journals, papers pop up there from time to time.
Thanks! I used to read the NASA SpaceFlight forums regularly, but they've dropped off my radar. Looks like there's lots of interesting discussions going on...
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Actually CNSA releases mission data faster than either ESA or ISRO and CNSA plans are known well in advance. Just because the Euro-American media don't splash them across headlines, does not mean they are not there.
My google-fu must be weak in this specific instance, as I don't have the skinny on CNSA info or announcements :( Any linkifications would be much appreciated, or is it just a matter of better keywords...
There are people who specialise in monitoring Chinese space, and their twitter feeds are very interesting.
The unmanned spaceflight forum has a lot on the Chang'e missions
http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?act=idx
amongst others.
Data from previous lunar missions is available in quantity here:
http://moon.bao.ac.cn/index_en.jsp
but the site can be unpredictable - sometimes very quick, sometimes painfully slow.
China is very open with its data and announcements, as long as it works, and my take on it is that they like to make sure that everything properly reflects the glorious party of the motherland and its heroic achievements before it goes public. Contrast that with India's lunar program, where a much promised data release from Chandrayaan-2 is now 2 months overdue and despite many requests to anyone who'll listen data that is advertised as available from Chandrayaan-1 stays stubbornly missing from their terrible website.
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Chang'e 5 has successfully performed its second TEI Burn and is on its way home.
https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/g3zwiqBvHuHgP-hJ6UGdKQ
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Landing NOTAM appears to be out. According to "Galactic Penguin SST" on the NSF forum
December 16 between 17:32 - 18:07 UTC.
A4289/20 NOTAMN
Q) ZBPE/QRTCA/IV/BO/W/000/657/4221N11127E059
A) ZBPE B) 2012161732 C) 2012161807
E) A TEMPORARY RESTRICTED AREA ESTABLISHED BOUNDED BY:
N423908E1101001-N430003E1122606-N420134E1124138-N414110E1102656
BACK TO START. VERTICAL LIMITS:GND-20000M.
F) GND G) 20000M AGL
The location is inner Mongolia, same area as the previous Chang'e 5-T1 return capsule was recovered
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I just read that they successfully recovered the sample container, and also that they're going to make the samples available for study to scientists from other countries. This was a great mission from beginning to end, and a testament to the people involved. Well done!
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Absolute congratulations! In other robotic space rock collection news, Hayabusa2 has also come home with a sample collection from the body it was sent to study. So congratulations to both China and Japan for their stunning achievements. :)
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Given these successes, we might see a whole lot more sample return missions from all space agencies.
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According to reports the orbiter delivery vehicle didn't join the re-entry capsule and is still out there. They are apparently assessing its fuel status before deciding what to do with it. Of course they don't have anything planned at all... ::)
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Given these successes, we might see a whole lot more sample return missions from all space agencies.
NASA's plan with the rover in flight is certainly an interesting one, littering Mars with packaged samples to be picked up and launched to Earth by another mission. What are your thoughts on it?
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It will be interesting to see how the latest Moon samples compare with those sent back by the Apollo Missions.
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It will be interesting to see how the latest Moon samples compare with those sent back by the Apollo Missions.
Not to mention the 3 Luna sample return missions. While much simpler in execution than Chang'e 5, they still were and are an impressive achievement.
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It will certainly be of intense interest to lunar geologists who have been wanting samples from other locations for a very long time now.
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And those samples may different than those of the Apollo sites, just to front run any of the blunder's comments about being different.