Author Topic: The Trump Presidency  (Read 399757 times)

Offline smartcooky

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #570 on: August 24, 2019, 04:15:30 PM »
We can only hope that Western leaders will be mature enough to follow their strategic interests rather than react personally.

And, for me, this is problem with a lot of critics of Trump - the people who are so opposed to him that they oppose whatever he says, does or proposes, regardless of whether it's sensible or not. As they say in Australian Rules football, "Play the ball, not the man." In other words, respond to the statement or the policy, not to the fact that Trump said it, and give him credit when he says or does something good.

Hyper-partisanship isn't going to help the USA in the long term, which is why I think the best Democrat Party candidate for beating Trump is a moderate.

Like what, for example?
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Offline Obviousman

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #571 on: August 24, 2019, 06:08:19 PM »
We can only hope that Western leaders will be mature enough to follow their strategic interests rather than react personally.

And, for me, this is problem with a lot of critics of Trump - the people who are so opposed to him that they oppose whatever he says, does or proposes, regardless of whether it's sensible or not. As they say in Australian Rules football, "Play the ball, not the man." In other words, respond to the statement or the policy, not to the fact that Trump said it, and give him credit when he says or does something good.

Hyper-partisanship isn't going to help the USA in the long term, which is why I think the best Democrat Party candidate for beating Trump is a moderate.

I know where you are coming from and normally it would make sense however we have some unique circumstances here.

In other times, you'd just ride out the rocky relationship, knowing it was only temporary. In this case though, not only does being passive reinforce President Trump's ego but it also presents a facade to his supporters (and possibly to the wider US voter community) that what he is doing is working; that his adversarial, volatile and juvenile behaviour is actually paying off.

The last thing in the world we want to do is validate his conduct, especially with voters!

Instead, the too-often parochial average voter must be made to question their President's actions, and see the harm it is doing to their country.

OH, and reference the economy: I am not sure about this but didn't the economy start to grow under the Obama administration? If I am right (and this is simply based on something I think I saw) President Trump is simply taking credit for the work done by previous administrations.

Offline grmcdorman

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #572 on: August 24, 2019, 09:41:28 PM »
OH, and reference the economy: I am not sure about this but didn't the economy start to grow under the Obama administration? If I am right (and this is simply based on something I think I saw) President Trump is simply taking credit for the work done by previous administrations.
That is my understanding as well. He's also laying the groundwork for not taking the blame if/when things go sour with his attacks on the Federal Reserve.

Offline Peter B

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #573 on: August 24, 2019, 10:43:11 PM »
What do you think he's done right?

Not many things, for sure, but some:

- Confronting China on trade, currency and intellectual property problems it's causing, and backing the Hong Kong protesters;

- Leaning on NATO partners to shoulder their burden of defence spending rather than having them sit back and rely on the USA;

- Making agreements with both parties in Congress over debt limits ('good' in the sense that it shows he's perfectly capable of making agreements with the Democrats and isn't always mindlessly criticising them);

- Confronting Russia and backing Russia's neighbours;

- Arguably, making a deal with Kim Jong-un (sure, the deal hasn't achieved much, but 'good' in the sense that it gave Kim Jong-un the publicity he wanted without giving too much away); and

- Arguably, pulling out of the Iran deal ('good' in the sense that I've heard credible commentators criticising the original deal as made).

Another thing to consider is that Trump has maintained his power-base even though it contains groups which theoretically have conflicting objectives (for example, the foreign policy hawks vs the isolationists, or the moral conservatives vs the libertarians). This isn't necessarily a good thing, but it's a thing to be aware of. People who've supported him or worked for him have later criticised him (Anthony Scaramucci, Ann Coulter and Chris Christie all come to mind) and yet it seems to have no major effect on his popularity. However, the more noise that's made about impeaching him, the more strongly his base supports him.

Offline Allan F

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #574 on: August 25, 2019, 08:43:02 AM »
He's not real popular in Denmark right now, with him cancelling his visit, because our prime minister said she wouldn't consider selling Greenland.
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Offline LunarOrbit

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #575 on: August 25, 2019, 09:57:28 AM »
What do you think he's done right?

Not many things, for sure, but some:

- Confronting China on trade, currency and intellectual property problems it's causing

Confronting China on trade would be good if he was going about it properly. But imposing tariffs on imports from China hurts Americans far more than it hurts China. And it's hardly a good thing if Trump's trade wars lead to a recession.

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and backing the Hong Kong protesters;

He is only backing the protesters because they are opposing China and he wants to be seen as tough on China. He doesn't care WHY they are protesting, and if those types of protests happened in the US he would behave far more like China than a democratically elected leader should.

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- Leaning on NATO partners to shoulder their burden of defence spending rather than having them sit back and rely on the USA;

The spending levels that Trump is referring to (but doesn't understand) is not money that is paid into NATO. They aren't membership dues that go into NATO's bank account. They are defense spending goals. For example, Canada isn't meeting the goal of spending 2% of our GDP on our military. That is a goal that we agreed to meet as part of being a member of NATO... but that money isn't going to NATO.

And frankly, Canada does a lot to defend the United States. We often have to intercept Russian bombers that fly through our airspace. In a war those bombers would probably ignore Canadian targets because their goal would be to reach the US. So all of that spending we have done on air defenses and early warning radar installations in our far north has been to benefit the US.

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- Making agreements with both parties in Congress over debt limits ('good' in the sense that it shows he's perfectly capable of making agreements with the Democrats and isn't always mindlessly criticising them);

I'm not sure if this has actually happened. Trump's $1.5 trillion tax break to the wealthy makes me doubt he cares about debt limits.

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- Confronting Russia and backing Russia's neighbours;

Again, I don't think this has ever actually happened. If it has it has been more like "Hey Putin... don't attack your neighbours.  ;)  ;)  ;)"

Sanctions were imposed on some Russians after Trump took office, but he resisted doing so.

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- Arguably, making a deal with Kim Jong-un (sure, the deal hasn't achieved much, but 'good' in the sense that it gave Kim Jong-un the publicity he wanted without giving too much away);

This is another one of those things that I agree would be great if it was actually working as intended. But so far all that Trump has accomplished is giving Kim Jong Un more legitimacy on the world stage. How does it look to have Kim Jong Un standing next to the President of the United States as an equal, and then ignoring demands to denuclearize?

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- Arguably, pulling out of the Iran deal ('good' in the sense that I've heard credible commentators criticising the original deal as made).

I don't see how a deal (any deal) is worse than no deal at all. A lot of the criticisms of the deal coming from the right are nonsense.

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Another thing to consider is that Trump has maintained his power-base even though it contains groups which theoretically have conflicting objectives (for example, the foreign policy hawks vs the isolationists, or the moral conservatives vs the libertarians). This isn't necessarily a good thing, but it's a thing to be aware of. People who've supported him or worked for him have later criticised him (Anthony Scaramucci, Ann Coulter and Chris Christie all come to mind) and yet it seems to have no major effect on his popularity. However, the more noise that's made about impeaching him, the more strongly his base supports him.

Yes, he has his base under some kind of magic spell. The racist man who has committed adultery on all 3 of his wives, slept with porn stars, sexually assaulted women (and possibly children), has never read the bible, never goes to church, and is frequently blasphemous has somehow convinced the evangelicals that he was chosen by God.

The fact that he has the magic ability to hold onto his base even though he is a walking example of every one of the 7 deadly sins, doesn't make him a good leader.
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Offline LunarOrbit

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #576 on: August 25, 2019, 10:01:02 AM »
He's not real popular in Denmark right now, with him cancelling his visit, because our prime minister said she wouldn't consider selling Greenland.

Your Member of Parliament Ida Auken is awesome. I just saw this tweet she made:

https://twitter.com/IdaAuken/status/1163873544658403329?s=20
It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth.
I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth.
I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
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Offline gillianren

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #577 on: August 25, 2019, 11:40:16 AM »
Yeah, that's the thing--everything cited as something good he's done is missing a lot of context that shows that, no, it actually isn't.  For example, "making agreements with both parties" implies that he's been successful at it.  He hasn't.  Literally every agreement has been reached in spite of him, not because of him, because he insists that funding for his stupid, pointless wall be part of budget agreements.  And the Democrats won't agree to that, because it's stupid and pointless and the money would pretty much be better spent being set on fire to heat federal buildings.  And if he were really confronting Russia, mightn't he consider saying something about how they definitely interfered in the election?
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Offline Zakalwe

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #578 on: August 25, 2019, 03:36:24 PM »
He's not real popular in Denmark right now, with him cancelling his visit, because our prime minister said she wouldn't consider selling Greenland.

I think that it's more to do with Obama announcing that he was visiting Denmark shortly after Trump's scheduled visit.
people want to buy tickets to hear Obama. In comparison, they are queuing up to protest at Trump.


https://theweek.com/speedreads/860160/coincidentally-obama-visiting-denmark-late-september

The orange shitgibbon's ego wouldn't be able to stand the comparisons.
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Offline Allan F

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #579 on: August 25, 2019, 06:04:46 PM »
Ex-president Obama comes across as a decent human being. Somebody who you could talk to and who would understand your points - perhaps not agreeing, but listening anyway.

Trump doesn't.
Well, it is like this: The truth doesn't need insults. Insults are the refuge of a darkened mind, a mind that refuses to open and see. Foul language can't outcompete knowledge. And knowledge is the result of education. Education is the result of the wish to know more, not less.

Offline rocketman

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #580 on: August 27, 2019, 07:12:00 AM »
Ex-president Obama comes across as a decent human being.

He probably committed a lot fewer murders than his predecessor.  I don't have statistics on Trump at-the-ready.

Offline Glom

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #581 on: August 28, 2019, 05:25:00 PM »
I must apologise. I have previously had quite a condescending view of the American system. I was always thinking it was nowhere near as good as Americans like to think it is. Well, stones and glass houses. So far, it has kept a wannabe dictator at bay for nearly three years. Our system has crumbled in a month. We are now officially a dictatorship. So America wins (again).

Offline Obviousman

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #582 on: August 28, 2019, 06:08:09 PM »
I must apologise. I have previously had quite a condescending view of the American system. I was always thinking it was nowhere near as good as Americans like to think it is. Well, stones and glass houses. So far, it has kept a wannabe dictator at bay for nearly three years. Our system has crumbled in a month. We are now officially a dictatorship. So America wins (again).
Do you think there will be a 'no-confidence' motion?

Do you think the general public will protest this action?

Offline jfb

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #583 on: August 28, 2019, 08:00:53 PM »
I must apologise. I have previously had quite a condescending view of the American system. I was always thinking it was nowhere near as good as Americans like to think it is. Well, stones and glass houses. So far, it has kept a wannabe dictator at bay for nearly three years. Our system has crumbled in a month. We are now officially a dictatorship. So America wins (again).

The "system" hasn't done squat - our only saving grace is that Trump is an incompetent who's surrounded himself with incompetents ("A's hire B's, B's hire C's, Trump hires Omarosa").  If half of these people had half a clue of what they were doing we'd be in deep doo-doo. 

The only thing that's kept the Republic from crumbling to dust so far has been that previous generations of politicians had a sense of shame

Offline gwiz

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #584 on: August 29, 2019, 05:43:26 AM »
Do you think there will be a 'no-confidence' motion?
Possibly, but that might just mean that parliament is dissolved and the election comes after the Brexit deadline.
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Do you think the general public will protest this action?
There were several thousand protesting in Westminster yesterday evening, plus spontaneous protests in other cities across the country.
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