Author Topic: Starship!  (Read 58513 times)

Offline 12oh2alarm

  • Venus
  • **
  • Posts: 78
  • This dude likes Don Martin cartoons.
Re: Starship!
« Reply #90 on: December 22, 2020, 05:15:33 PM »

Everyone take care in these times. Chill, have a break and stay safe.

Exactly. May Starship one day bring us photos like these, to append to the history of Moon and Mars landings. A clip as a Christmas gift for readers of this thread.
Someone put a ton of Apollo mission photos in a sequence, resulting in a kind of stop-motion movie of a mission. I like it (and didn't mind the game console music :-)




Offline JayUtah

  • Neptune
  • ****
  • Posts: 3789
    • Clavius
Re: Starship!
« Reply #91 on: December 22, 2020, 05:33:00 PM »
You make a good point re Coronavirus lockdowns.

...I can feel the grinding effects of dealing withCovid lockdown.

Another reason I'm so not jumping into this debate with both feet.  These things want to be talked about.  And they should be.  But it's easy to exhaust one's good nature these days, with so many demands on it coming from so many directions.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline smartcooky

  • Uranus
  • ****
  • Posts: 1959
Re: Starship!
« Reply #92 on: December 22, 2020, 07:00:27 PM »

Let me add another non-technical one: regulation. You think authorities would allow flying cars to contain 1000 psi pressure vessels? Hell no!

They already do!

This may come as a shock to you, but in this country, for at least 30 years, we have had warranted, registered, Land Transport Authority approved cars on the road that run on CNG (Compressed Natural Gas). The vehicle tank pressure is over 3,000 psi - and this is not an inert gas like nitrogen we're talking about here... CNG is highly combustible.

This may come as a shock to you, but these cars don't fly, not even in your country. Lithobreaking incidents will be highly unlikely.

The danger/risk of high pressure containers in flying vehicles for the mass market is considerably different for regulators to be treating them differently (I would hope). Compare the average speed of CNG driven car collisions with the average terminal velocity of flying cars in trouble. Risk assessment for anything flying is by nature very different from assessment for road vehicles. Flying objects can go down anywhere (residential areas, stadiums, munition depots, nuclear power plants) while road vehicles typically don't stray too far from the sidewalk. We only let pilots fly after thorough training and exams, but allow any average Joe to drive a car if he can spell his name for a reason.


Yeah, I'm calling BS on this. The number of vehicle accidents per occupant are greater than the number of aircraft accidents per occupant by several orders of magnitude
« Last Edit: December 22, 2020, 07:02:49 PM by smartcooky »
If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong.

Offline smartcooky

  • Uranus
  • ****
  • Posts: 1959
Re: Starship!
« Reply #93 on: December 23, 2020, 12:56:50 AM »
Anyway, back to the interesting stuff...

SN9 is on the pad ready for testing

Here is Lab Padre's time-lapse of the move
 
If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong.

Offline raven

  • Uranus
  • ****
  • Posts: 1639
Re: Starship!
« Reply #94 on: December 23, 2020, 04:30:31 AM »
Totally needs the Thunderbirds theme. ;D But, yes, I'd rather get back to discussing the craft this topic is named for.

Offline AtomicDog

  • Mars
  • ***
  • Posts: 372
Re: Starship!
« Reply #95 on: December 23, 2020, 09:14:16 AM »
Totally needs the Thunderbirds theme. ;D But, yes, I'd rather get back to discussing the craft this topic is named for.

You mean this theme? When Starship finally takes a crew to Mars I want to see this theme playing in the background:

"There is no belief, however foolish, that will not gather its faithful adherents who will defend it to the death." - Isaac Asimov

Offline JayUtah

  • Neptune
  • ****
  • Posts: 3789
    • Clavius
Re: Starship!
« Reply #96 on: December 23, 2020, 11:19:23 AM »
Totally needs the Thunderbirds theme. ;D

Believe me, the Gerry Anderson fandom has been all over this since the beginning.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline raven

  • Uranus
  • ****
  • Posts: 1639
Re: Starship!
« Reply #97 on: December 23, 2020, 04:26:10 PM »
Totally needs the Thunderbirds theme. ;D But, yes, I'd rather get back to discussing the craft this topic is named for.

You mean this theme? When Starship finally takes a crew to Mars I want to see this theme playing in the background:



Meant more this one, but that works too! Thunderbirds had an interesting take on high tech. Sure, it caused problems, but they could be fixed, usually with other tech and a little ingenuity, and it loved it all the same.


Believe me, the Gerry Anderson fandom has been all over this since the beginning.
Colour me less than surprised.  8)

Offline jfb

  • Mars
  • ***
  • Posts: 400
Re: Starship!
« Reply #98 on: December 23, 2020, 06:23:21 PM »
Totally needs the Thunderbirds theme. ;D

Believe me, the Gerry Anderson fandom has been all over this since the beginning.

To wit:


Offline jfb

  • Mars
  • ***
  • Posts: 400
Re: Starship!
« Reply #99 on: December 23, 2020, 06:36:26 PM »
Anyway, back to the interesting stuff...

SN9 is on the pad ready for testing

Here is Lab Padre's time-lapse of the move
 


Really interested in what sort of damage may be lurking after the fall in the high bay.  Based on the pictures I’ve seen the flaps took the brunt of the damage (and acted as crumple zones to limit damage to the body and the high bay).  Cryo proof and/or static fire may be interesting this time around. 

But beyond that, it’s one thing to fall over in the pad, it’s a whole other thing to fall over in a work area.  Thank God it didn’t happen while people were on scaffolds around it.  They need to beef up those supports or someone will get killed. 

Offline smartcooky

  • Uranus
  • ****
  • Posts: 1959
Re: Starship!
« Reply #100 on: December 24, 2020, 04:41:37 AM »
Totally needs the Thunderbirds theme. ;D

Believe me, the Gerry Anderson fandom has been all over this since the beginning.

To wit:




Best comment: Andy Denyer
Love it! But... No Jeff Bezos as the Hood?

« Last Edit: December 24, 2020, 05:41:57 AM by smartcooky »
If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong.

Offline JayUtah

  • Neptune
  • ****
  • Posts: 3789
    • Clavius
Re: Starship!
« Reply #101 on: December 24, 2020, 05:42:03 PM »
...it’s a whole other thing to fall over in a work area.  Thank God it didn’t happen while people were on scaffolds around it.  They need to beef up those supports or someone will get killed.

This is part of the luxury of SpaceX.  Had a similar accident occurred related to a contracted vehicle, the whole area would be shut down and subject to inspector general activity.  That would delay the process by a month or more.  But since the SpaceX Starship is a self-funded development effort, with no contracted customer yet, SpaceX only has to answer to OSHA (America's health-and-safety regulator), and then generally only if a worker injury occurred.  Yes, OSHA has an interest in workplace standards that might cause an injury, but less so.

I just skimmed the video of Starship assembly, so everyone please forgive me if I'm misrepresenting it.  But it looked like some parts of assembly and stacking were being done using general-purpose construction equipment.  Naturally almost none of that would be acceptable in the development of any other crewed space vehicle, if done under the auspices of a NASA contract to do so.  Now you can apply whatever judgment call you want to.  But this is part of how SpaceX is able to move so quickly.  And corner-cutting was honestly what delayed them in the ability to bid on many U.S. government contracts.  Obviously this raises the question of whether the controls and oversight that persist in competing programs is really necessary, and whether it really achieves the safety and quality goals that crewed space flight requires.  If anything this provides more data that helps us ask and answer these questions.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline Zakalwe

  • Uranus
  • ****
  • Posts: 1589
Re: Starship!
« Reply #102 on: December 24, 2020, 06:15:04 PM »


I just skimmed the video of Starship assembly, so everyone please forgive me if I'm misrepresenting it.  But it looked like some parts of assembly and stacking were being done using general-purpose construction equipment.  Naturally almost none of that would be acceptable in the development of any other crewed space vehicle, if done under the auspices of a NASA contract to do so.  Now you can apply whatever judgment call you want to.  But this is part of how SpaceX is able to move so quickly.  And corner-cutting was honestly what delayed them in the ability to bid on many U.S. government contracts.  Obviously this raises the question of whether the controls and oversight that persist in competing programs is really necessary, and whether it really achieves the safety and quality goals that crewed space flight requires.  If anything this provides more data that helps us ask and answer these questions.

They seem to be building their prototypes on a sandy, wind-swept shoreline, using cherry-pickers, big hammers and crowbars. It's fascinating watching them.....I nearly coughed up a lung when the rolled a $3 million Raptor engine under SN8 on the back of a pickup. They then used what looked like a butchered work platform to (jerkily) raise the Raptor up to install it on the thrust puck.

The same with loading SN9 onto the test stand.....a huge crane, some slings and two blokes on a couple of monster cherry-pickers. Boeing would have a stack of Statement of Works, Risk Assessments, lifting plans etc as high as the booster. However the ultimate end was the same, namely a booster on a test stand. Guess which one was completed first?

Their building process is the very antithesis of the hyper clean room assembly that you see elsewhere. And yet, they have made more test flights in a year than NASA/Boeing have with the SLS in 10 years.

Which approach works the best? Time will tell. I'm guessing that SpaceX are doing it this way so they can learn as fast as possible. Why make everything fancy when the chances are that it will end up in a pile of scrap? Once the design is worked out then they can crack on with making it look purty. They clearly know the process of building human-rated craft, so I am assuming that they will apply that set of knowledge once they work out how to fly the Booster and Starship.
"The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.' " - Isaac Asimov

Offline jfb

  • Mars
  • ***
  • Posts: 400
Re: Starship!
« Reply #103 on: December 24, 2020, 07:47:45 PM »
But it looked like some parts of assembly and stacking were being done using general-purpose construction equipment. 

Yup.  The joke among the Texas Tank Watchers is that the second company on Mars after SpaceX will be United Rentals. 


Offline molesworth

  • Mars
  • ***
  • Posts: 349
  • the curse of st custards
Re: Starship!
« Reply #104 on: December 25, 2020, 12:33:21 PM »
Yup.  The joke among the Texas Tank Watchers is that the second company on Mars after SpaceX will be United Rentals.

With all those red cliffs and buttes reminding me of the Road Runner cartoons, I think it might be Acme  ;D
Days spent at sea are not deducted from one's allotted span - Phoenician proverb