Author Topic: The Biden Presidency  (Read 8179 times)

Offline JayUtah

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Re: The Biden Presidency
« Reply #90 on: January 24, 2021, 01:14:26 PM »
In case it wasn't clear, I wish the United States didn't have to deal with racial supremacists in any way.  Yes, if we have to endure their presence, then let them wear their politics on their sleeves and form their own political parties so that reasonable conservatives aren't tempted to vote for them.  I'd prefer instead they form their own country, because they have no desire to take part in America as it actually is.  For them, I fear making America "great" again literally means going back to whatever form of enslavement they can sneak under the radar.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline raven

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Re: The Biden Presidency
« Reply #91 on: January 24, 2021, 01:15:25 PM »
With all due respect, I do not see how they add to America's strength, trying to bully a wannabe despot into office against all facts and democratic process.
They are not America's strength. America's strength is its diversity, its multitude of people and ideas coming together. Not them. They are a rot on American democracy, a fascist, and I do not use the word mildly, infestation. They weaken America, for all their bravado and claims of wanting to 'make America great'.
I do believe Peter was referring to "Or a separate country" with his "I hope not".
I dearly hope so.

Offline Peter B

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Re: The Biden Presidency
« Reply #92 on: January 24, 2021, 09:46:09 PM »
With all due respect, I do not see how they add to America's strength, trying to bully a wannabe despot into office against all facts and democratic process.
They are not America's strength. America's strength is its diversity, its multitude of people and ideas coming together. Not them. They are a rot on American democracy, a fascist, and I do not use the word mildly, infestation. They weaken America, for all their bravado and claims of wanting to 'make America great'.
I do believe Peter was referring to "Or a separate country" with his "I hope not".
I dearly hope so.

Yes, I was.

I totally understand that having such people in your country is a liability for your country. It's the same here and in every other country which allows freedom of expression - depending on how laws work people can more or less openly hold repulsive views.

I just think the idea of slicing off a part of the USA to create a new country just for the white supremacists is a dangerous one: once they're their own country you lose control of who they make alliances with. Just imagine if they made an agreement with Russia or China to allow a military base there - it'd be like the Cuban Missile Crisis but just a bit closer to the USA...

Instead, I think people like this need to be de-radicalised, in much the same way that extremist Muslims have been de-radicalised - they feel alienated within the country they live in, and the idea of de-radicalisation is the process of dealing with that alienation. I suspect (but obviously don't know for sure) that only a small proportion of these people hold these views innately, while the majority have been radicalised due mostly to circumstances in their lives; change the circumstances, and the views change with them.

About the only alternative (which I realise is spectacularly impractical) is to encourage them to migrate to a country where their views might be more acceptable, such as Russia.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2021, 09:47:52 PM by Peter B »

Offline gillianren

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Re: The Biden Presidency
« Reply #93 on: January 25, 2021, 10:44:19 AM »
I worry that, for some of these people, the reason they feel alienated is that other people have the same rights they do, and the only thing that will make them happy is to take those people's rights away.
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Offline JayUtah

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Re: The Biden Presidency
« Reply #94 on: January 25, 2021, 02:04:16 PM »
I just think the idea of slicing off a part of the USA to create a new country just for the white supremacists is a dangerous one: once they're their own country you lose control of who they make alliances with. Just imagine if they made an agreement with Russia or China to allow a military base there - it'd be like the Cuban Missile Crisis but just a bit closer to the USA...

That's a decisive point.  I don't disagree with attempts to deradicalize racial supremacists.  But the aftermath of the Civil War indicates just how problematic that is.  100 years later, we had a new civil rights movement facing almost exactly the same challenges.  There is a component of the American experience that seems intransigent in its belief in racial inequality.  It's been ingrained for generations.  Right -- sending them packing to their own country is inadvisable for all the reasons you mention and probably more.  But integration is so very elusive.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline ApolloEnthusiast

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Re: The Biden Presidency
« Reply #95 on: March 02, 2021, 01:50:19 PM »
I just think the idea of slicing off a part of the USA to create a new country just for the white supremacists is a dangerous one: once they're their own country you lose control of who they make alliances with. Just imagine if they made an agreement with Russia or China to allow a military base there - it'd be like the Cuban Missile Crisis but just a bit closer to the USA...
I can't speak for Jay, but while I 100% advocate for these "people" to have their own country I wouldn't advocate for giving them any slice of the USA. They're free to go carve out a place for themselves in whatever fascist dystopia will have them.

The racists here have held the country hostage from literally the beginning. Without concessions for their institution of slavery they were unwilling to even form a Union in the first place. Compromises with intransigent racists in 1820 and 1850 helped preserve "unity", but at the expense of millions of enslaved people and their descendants. The Civil War, and the horrific aftermath perpetrated by the racists was just another example of them being willing to sacrifice absolutely any political ideal in order to preserve their racist status quo.

More compromises for the sake of "unity" and we get nearly 100 years of Jim Crow segregation and, like Jay said, the exact same battles with the exact same types of people from the previous century to end it. While much progress has been made since the 60s, I'm fed up with compromise. I don't want "unity" with racists. If they don't want an America that lives up to the promise of 1776 then they shouldn't be here.

I know with our 1st Amendment freedoms it is difficult to legislate away racism and similar bigotries, but it is long past time that these people are forced to accept that the world they want is not acceptable and will not be tolerated. If that means forcibly expelling people who have demonstrated for centuries that they're unwilling to be a part of an inclusive world, then I'm quite willing to explore how that might be accomplished in a way that doesn't threaten our basic liberties.

Offline smartcooky

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Re: The Biden Presidency
« Reply #96 on: March 03, 2021, 01:51:56 PM »
Qberts.  They feel betrayed by Donald Trump and the Republican Party.  Which they were.  I've even seen snippets here and there that say Trump was a Democrat plant, meant to destroy the Republicans from within.  (Well, he did destroy the party from within, but not because the Democrats sent him.)


Didn't he once run for president on a Democrat ticket?
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Offline raven

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Re: The Biden Presidency
« Reply #97 on: March 03, 2021, 05:44:31 PM »
Until space flight becomes a mature enough tech people can just abscond off into the black yonder, I don't think the 'just  let them go elsewhere' is really an option, unfortunately. Every scrap of this planet but Antarctica belongs to someone or some entity, and I doubt many would take kindly to millions of political immigrants (oh, the irony!). And even if we could, I'm not 100% comfortable with the idea of 'those we disagree with should face exile'. Definitely setting some bad, bad precedent, even if it could not happen to more deserving folk in this case.
That said, how well a bunch of people who think 5G causes cancer and other 'alternative facts' will do in space is a darkly amusing question.

Offline ApolloEnthusiast

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Re: The Biden Presidency
« Reply #98 on: March 03, 2021, 08:37:53 PM »
Until space flight becomes a mature enough tech people can just abscond off into the black yonder, I don't think the 'just  let them go elsewhere' is really an option, unfortunately. Every scrap of this planet but Antarctica belongs to someone or some entity, and I doubt many would take kindly to millions of political immigrants (oh, the irony!). And even if we could, I'm not 100% comfortable with the idea of 'those we disagree with should face exile'. Definitely setting some bad, bad precedent, even if it could not happen to more deserving folk in this case.
That said, how well a bunch of people who think 5G causes cancer and other 'alternative facts' will do in space is a darkly amusing question.
I would be willing to spend taxpayer dollars on the rocket and launch costs. They would just have to provide their own consumables.

In all seriousness, I'm also not 100% comfortable with the precedent of exiling people with different political views. But at the same time, I am 0% comfortable allowing these people to continue forcing reprehensible compromises to accommodate their views, which have absolutely no place in our society.

Offline raven

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Re: The Biden Presidency
« Reply #99 on: March 03, 2021, 11:11:23 PM »
I would be willing to spend taxpayer dollars on the rocket and launch costs. They would just have to provide their own consumables.

In all seriousness, I'm also not 100% comfortable with the precedent of exiling people with different political views. But at the same time, I am 0% comfortable allowing these people to continue forcing reprehensible compromises to accommodate their views, which have absolutely no place in our society.
It's a conundrum to be sure. How many have said they were breaking their society to save it and just ended up breaking it. "Oh, this is only for the duration, until the enemies of peace and freedom are no more." Well, the duration generally lasts far longer than it should. And we're talking millions of people if the 33% of Republicans polled who said Trump was "one of the best presidents in US history."  in a poll from shortly after his presidency ended holds at all true for the bulk.
Just where is the US going to go from here?
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Offline Zakalwe

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Re: The Biden Presidency
« Reply #100 on: March 04, 2021, 05:53:29 AM »
Until space flight becomes a mature enough tech people can just abscond off into the black yonder, I don't think the 'just  let them go elsewhere' is really an option, unfortunately. Every scrap of this planet but Antarctica belongs to someone or some entity, and I doubt many would take kindly to millions of political immigrants (oh, the irony!). And even if we could, I'm not 100% comfortable with the idea of 'those we disagree with should face exile'. Definitely setting some bad, bad precedent, even if it could not happen to more deserving folk in this case.
That said, how well a bunch of people who think 5G causes cancer and other 'alternative facts' will do in space is a darkly amusing question.
I would be willing to spend taxpayer dollars on the rocket and launch costs. They would just have to provide their own consumables.

In all seriousness, I'm also not 100% comfortable with the precedent of exiling people with different political views. But at the same time, I am 0% comfortable allowing these people to continue forcing reprehensible compromises to accommodate their views, which have absolutely no place in our society.


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Offline jfb

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Re: The Biden Presidency
« Reply #101 on: March 10, 2021, 10:05:48 PM »
Qberts.  They feel betrayed by Donald Trump and the Republican Party.  Which they were.  I've even seen snippets here and there that say Trump was a Democrat plant, meant to destroy the Republicans from within.  (Well, he did destroy the party from within, but not because the Democrats sent him.)


Didn't he once run for president on a Democrat ticket?

No.  He thought about running on the Reform Party ticket in 2000, but decided against it (sadly - he could have done for Gore what Perot did for Clinton in '92, and the first decade of the 21st century could have been quite different).  He's been registered as a Democratic voter in the past, but he's changed affiliations a few times. 

Offline gillianren

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Re: The Biden Presidency
« Reply #102 on: March 11, 2021, 10:45:52 AM »
It's not as though he has any personal convictions to worry about that would make changing party repeatedly an issue.
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