Author Topic: What becomes of old 'friends'..  (Read 479111 times)

Offline gillianren

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Re: What becomes of old 'friends'..
« Reply #300 on: September 29, 2012, 01:31:58 PM »
It's really very frustrating to me.  I've been told both that it is trivially easy to diagnose over the internet without training and that the same person would not have known that I was mentally ill if I didn't say something.  There is this pervasive belief that there is something diagnosably wrong with every conspiracist, and I do not believe that to be the case.  Even the more unusual ones do not always have something diagnosably wrong--leaving aside that severe conspiracism is its own diagnosis these days!  There is a whole wide range of unusual behaviour that is not any kind of mental illness, and it's harder for those of us who are to get taken seriously when everyone wants to lump us in with people who just doggedly hold screwy ideas.
"This sounds like a job for Bipolar Bear . . . but I just can't seem to get out of bed!"

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Offline frenat

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Re: What becomes of old 'friends'..
« Reply #301 on: October 01, 2012, 10:46:46 AM »
Dr Socks has found the cesspool of GLP
http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message2004879/pg1
http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message1790701/pg129

Seems like a place he blongs.  Any chance we can lock him in there and throw away the key?
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 -Never let facts stand in the way of a good conspiracy theory.
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Offline Echnaton

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Re: What becomes of old 'friends'..
« Reply #302 on: October 01, 2012, 12:50:25 PM »
And he is still double posting.  I wonder how long it will take GLP to get tired of his rants about loose stools and ban him.
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Offline JayUtah

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Re: What becomes of old 'friends'..
« Reply #303 on: October 01, 2012, 02:51:18 PM »
It's really very frustrating to me.  I've been told both that it is trivially easy to diagnose over the internet without training and that the same person would not have known that I was mentally ill if I didn't say something.

Diagnosis without training is just idle speculation, even though the average person with ordinary intelligence can see superficial parallels in someone's behavior and what he reads in DSM.  An actual diagnosis is neither within our expertise here nor necessary to address the claims.

Even we practitioners of "hard" sciences who mock the often fluid science of psychology, after seeing the mental health diagnostic procedures at work, realize that a psychiatrist or psychologist would no more diagnose a patient without the battery of standardized tests and interviews than we would modify a structural design without looking at the strain gauges and LS-DYNA output.  That said, I've had a bit of experience -- enough to know that those who have diagnosable illnesses won't necessarily seem that way.  Ironically, I've observed that people I know who were later diagnosed and treated for paranoid schizophrenia (yeah, one of the "biggies") seemed quite coherent and believable when they talked about their perceptions.  This is what you get when someone legitimately detaches from reality and speaks from what he or she truly believes.

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There is this pervasive belief that there is something diagnosably wrong with every conspiracist, and I do not believe that to be the case.

Nor do I.  I think some are just out to have a lark.  Note how Patrick backed away from his impersonation after I warned him he may be in violation of California law and that I intended to do something about it.  His behavior is consistent not with someone who is somehow compelled or constrained to behave that way by some infirmity, but rather with someone who is consciously walking as close to the line of impropriety as possible, and has to occasionally step back into safe territory.

I guarantee every person you've ever met exhibits something that the DSM could get its teeth into.  The question is not whether people exhibit a variety of observable, categorizable, and (if necessary) diagnosable behavior.  The question is whether anything needs to be done.

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...it's harder for those of us who are to get taken seriously when everyone wants to lump us in with people who just doggedly hold screwy ideas.

I'm sorry this affects you that way.  As in the rest of life, apparently the people who need help and attention are often drowned out by clowns.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline gillianren

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Re: What becomes of old 'friends'..
« Reply #304 on: October 01, 2012, 03:03:57 PM »
Diagnosis without training is just idle speculation, even though the average person with ordinary intelligence can see superficial parallels in someone's behavior and what he reads in DSM.  An actual diagnosis is neither within our expertise here nor necessary to address the claims.

Quite.  And, indeed, if we are wrong, we can get into our own legal trouble.

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Even we practitioners of "hard" sciences who mock the often fluid science of psychology, after seeing the mental health diagnostic procedures at work, realize that a psychiatrist or psychologist would no more diagnose a patient without the battery of standardized tests and interviews than we would modify a structural design without looking at the strain gauges and LS-DYNA output.  That said, I've had a bit of experience -- enough to know that those who have diagnosable illnesses won't necessarily seem that way.  Ironically, I've observed that people I know who were later diagnosed and treated for paranoid schizophrenia (yeah, one of the "biggies") seemed quite coherent and believable when they talked about their perceptions.  This is what you get when someone legitimately detaches from reality and speaks from what he or she truly believes.

Delusions are a terrifying thing.  I have a dear friend whom I believe to have had a couple of psychotic breaks, and both times, there was delusion involved.  The agonizing thing is how hard it is proving to get him the help he so desperately needs.

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Nor do I.  I think some are just out to have a lark.  Note how Patrick backed away from his impersonation after I warned him he may be in violation of California law and that I intended to do something about it.  His behavior is consistent not with someone who is somehow compelled or constrained to behave that way by some infirmity, but rather with someone who is consciously walking as close to the line of impropriety as possible, and has to occasionally step back into safe territory.

Yeah, no matter what else you can say about him, it's obvious that he knows exactly what he's doing.  This is funny to him.  I think we can agree that he's a jerk, but if that were a mental health problem, the system would be even more overloaded than it already is.

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I guarantee every person you've ever met exhibits something that the DSM could get its teeth into.  The question is not whether people exhibit a variety of observable, categorizable, and (if necessary) diagnosable behavior.  The question is whether anything needs to be done.

Graham is taking abnormal psych this quarter (as a favour to me, of course!), and the warning everyone has given him is that it leaves people prone to self-diagnosis.  This is because, except for hallucinations and similar, the vast majority of mental illness is what I've taken to referring to as "normal behaviour turned up to eleven."  Everyone is sad for no reason sometimes; when it becomes clinical is when it starts having a negative impact on the rest of your life.  Everyone has irrational mood swings sometimes.  And, yes, everyone believes at least one or two things without evidence.  It's all part of the human condition until it starts being a serious problem.

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I'm sorry this affects you that way.  As in the rest of life, apparently the people who need help and attention are often drowned out by clowns.

All too often, yes.  I do feel sorry for some of the conspiracists; I do believe that some of them aren't getting the help they actually need.  However, that is not true of all of them.  Some of them just need to be put in their place--and some legitimately can be educated.  And some know exactly what they're doing and are in it for some ulterior motive, like fun at others' expense or a buck.
"This sounds like a job for Bipolar Bear . . . but I just can't seem to get out of bed!"

"Conspiracy theories are an irresistible labour-saving device in the face of complexity."  --Henry Louis Gates

Offline smartcooky

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Re: What becomes of old 'friends'..
« Reply #305 on: October 01, 2012, 05:26:04 PM »
While I agree that "clinical" diagnosis of a mental health condition by unqualified people through observation of the "patient's" interactions with others via  the internet is completely unscientific, that does not preclude anyone from expressing an opinion regarding the behaviour of that person, especially when that behaviour falls outside what THEY consider to be normal.

When a person becomes so obsessed with expounding a theory (conspiracy or otherwise) that they are prepared to create multiple user-names (including names that are intended to impersonate users who hold opposing viewpoints to their own) on any given forum, and to post as the various personalities in such a way that they agree with each other, and then to repeat that behaviour over a number  of forums, then I feel quite within my rights to judge that behaviour as abnormal, and to express that judgement as an opinion.
If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong.

Offline gillianren

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Re: What becomes of old 'friends'..
« Reply #306 on: October 01, 2012, 05:32:19 PM »
But that's all you really know about him.  It could be that messing with people on the internet is just his hobby, and that he's chosen Apollo conspiracism as his genre.  You don't have much of a way of knowing what he does with the rest of his time or how much time this takes up.
"This sounds like a job for Bipolar Bear . . . but I just can't seem to get out of bed!"

"Conspiracy theories are an irresistible labour-saving device in the face of complexity."  --Henry Louis Gates

Offline ka9q

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Re: What becomes of old 'friends'..
« Reply #307 on: October 01, 2012, 06:26:58 PM »
This is because, except for hallucinations and similar, the vast majority of mental illness is what I've taken to referring to as "normal behaviour turned up to eleven."
I think this is very true -- and I wouldn't even exclude hallucinations as they happen to every one of us every night when we dream. Hypnagogic hallucinations (seemingly real ones that happen as you're waking up or falling asleep) are extremely common and normal. An especially common half-asleep hallucination is to hear someone call my name when no one was there. The "sound" has a weird, dreamy feel to it. I wonder if this is what schizophrenics who "hear voices" experience all the time when they're wide awake.

Offline Echnaton

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Re: What becomes of old 'friends'..
« Reply #308 on: October 01, 2012, 06:46:40 PM »
The problem I find with judging people to be "abnormal" is that it tends to end the discussion or train of thought.  It also seriously damages our ability to understand someone or to find common ground in a discussion.   These two traits are among the best techniques we have in presenting our case so the scientifically illiterate fence sitter will understand that we are not just know-it-all blowhards. It is OK to describe behavior and characterize arguments, but we should refrain from judging people we know only from posts on the Internet. 
The sun shone, having no alternative, on the nothing new. —Samuel Beckett

Offline JayUtah

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Re: What becomes of old 'friends'..
« Reply #309 on: October 01, 2012, 08:04:09 PM »
In terms of participating in a debate, I believe the only really viable and defensible response presumes the proponent intended to make a rational argument.  Assume that your layman's judgment will naturally and wrongly conflate the symptoms of mental illness with symptoms of simple illogic or misbehavior, and that it's more likely to be one of the latter.  Your private views of the proponent's mental state obviously determine whether you desire to continue the debate.  But accusations of mental illness should not be part of the debate.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline nomuse

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Re: What becomes of old 'friends'..
« Reply #310 on: October 02, 2012, 02:20:57 AM »
Hrm.  I agree with Jay (how could I not!) but at the risk of diffusing the point, I also always go into a debate on the assumption that the other person intends to make a rational argument.  I also, often, continue to treat it as if it was seriously intended as a rational argument long after it has become clear that they are only interested in scoring points, unable to form a coherent argument, and lying through their teeth most of the time as well.

But there is that caveat!

Offline ChrLz

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Re: What becomes of old 'friends'..
« Reply #311 on: October 04, 2012, 10:18:38 AM »
Meanwhile over at the Economist, DrSocks has added the following:

DJW002
ChrLsZ
ka9p
Echnatonnn
twek

http://www.economist.com/blogs/babbage/2012/08/obituary

And it continues at that site - Gillian, you need no longer feel left out - you have been added to the impersonations by Patrick Tekeli, who is now 'gillianran' and 'yesmuse' at the apparently completely-unmoderated Economist.

I might politely and tactfully contact his brother/family - I'm concerned at where this may end...

Offline gillianren

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Re: What becomes of old 'friends'..
« Reply #312 on: October 04, 2012, 12:55:04 PM »
Well, that's better!

But seriously, is he impressing or amusing anyone with that shtick?  Okay, he's kind of amusing us, but in the sense that we think it's pathetic.  I'd wager that hardly anyone in his audience even gets what he's doing, and no one would be impressed by it.
"This sounds like a job for Bipolar Bear . . . but I just can't seem to get out of bed!"

"Conspiracy theories are an irresistible labour-saving device in the face of complexity."  --Henry Louis Gates

Offline Echnaton

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Re: What becomes of old 'friends'..
« Reply #313 on: October 04, 2012, 02:19:27 PM »
This reminds me of Hunter S. Thompson.  "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro."  DrSocks has turned pro. 
« Last Edit: October 04, 2012, 02:22:26 PM by Echnaton »
The sun shone, having no alternative, on the nothing new. —Samuel Beckett

Offline nomuse

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Re: What becomes of old 'friends'..
« Reply #314 on: October 04, 2012, 05:24:30 PM »
The only thing that really worried me was the multiple identities. There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a man in the depths of a sock puppet binge.