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General Discussion / Re: Venus astronomy question
« Last post by Bryanpoprobson on Today at 10:02:39 AM »
In answering a silly flat Earth believer regarding the amount of time that Venus is above the horizon. He said that Venus in 2015 was viewable for 24hours. ...

I would ask him for dates and locations, rather than just vague claims. In my experience of dealing with flat-earthers, they often repeat things like this that they've heard (or mis-heard) elsewhere, but never have the actual data to back it up.

As smartcooky noted, I think it would likely have to be at one of the poles, or at least quite a high latitude, and in very special circumstances. But it could be possible.

Which is exactly why my logic said, it would be possible, depending on the angle of Venus and it’s height above the Polar horizon.
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General Discussion / Re: Venus astronomy question
« Last post by molesworth on Today at 09:39:18 AM »
In answering a silly flat Earth believer regarding the amount of time that Venus is above the horizon. He said that Venus in 2015 was viewable for 24hours. ...

I would ask him for dates and locations, rather than just vague claims. In my experience of dealing with flat-earthers, they often repeat things like this that they've heard (or mis-heard) elsewhere, but never have the actual data to back it up.

As smartcooky noted, I think it would likely have to be at one of the poles, or at least quite a high latitude, and in very special circumstances. But it could be possible.
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General Discussion / Re: Venus astronomy question
« Last post by smartcooky on Today at 08:57:09 AM »



Venus is above the horizon for about the same time as any planet or star... from the time it rises until the time it sets. I think where your flerfer is confused is that Venus one of the few sky objects visible during the daytime if you know where to look - I have observed Venus at near midday on a number of occasions. The star Sirius (Alpha Canis Majoris) is another one that it visible during daylight. However, like Mercury, Venus is inside our orbit, so it never gets more west or east of the sun than the number of degree that equals its maximum elongation. For Venus that's 47° and for Mercury its 18°, i.e.you can only eve see Venus a maximum of  47° "left" or "right" of the Sun - you can see Venus "all day" but not for 24 hours and never more than about three hours after sunset, or three hours before sunrise.

Which is basically the answer I gave to the the flat Earther, but his question related to Venus being visible many hours after sunset. Now it is possible for Venus to be viewed as much as 4 hours after sunset. However the Sun can hover just below the horizon at certain times of year in the north or south. Is it possible therefore for Venus to be seen as a nighttime object for 24 hours, as claimed by this flat Earther?

Well, of course, since Venus is visible during the daytime, if you are standing at one of the poles (the north during Arctic Summer or south during Antarctic summer) then the sun is above the horizon all day every day for a few months. Venus could be visible in the sky if you knew where to look so long as it was far enough away from the sun to escape the glare. Venus has an orbital period of about 225 days, so it would depend on where it is in its orbit during the time of your polar summer. If it was reaching maximum elongation (either east or west) then it should be visible.

However, to see it against a darker sky would be much more difficult. I would have to look up an ephemeris and some orbital data for Venus to be sure, but my best guess is that it is theoretically possible if all the circumstances line up correctly.

1. You would have to be at the pole, observing just before the beginning of summer, or just after the end of summer, when the sun is just below the horizon and there is a long twilight that lasts several weeks.

2. The inclination of Venus' orbit to the plane of the Ecliptic is about 3½°. What that means is that the plane of Venus's orbit differs from the plane of the Earths orbit by 3½° so at its maximum elongation, Venus  can appear as much as about seven solar diameters "above" the elevation of the sun (one solar diameter is approx ½°, so 3½° / ½° = 7) .

3. IF Venus was near its maximum elongation, AND that maximum elongation also coincided with a point where it was sufficiently separated from the plane of the earth's orbit, then it might be possible for Venus to appear above the horizon in the twilight sky.   

These are a couple of rough illustrations to show what I mean by near maximum elongation with maximum or minimum separation from the ecliptic.






Now, have a look at this fantastic photo. This is the December 4, 2021 total solar eclipse taken from Union Glacier Camp, Antarctica, with Venus over on the right.


You can see that Venus is at almost the same elevation at the sun, so this means that at that time, the plane of Venus' orbit was such that it tilted either toward or away from us, giving little separation between the position of Venus and the ecliptic.   


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General Discussion / Re: Venus astronomy question
« Last post by Bryanpoprobson on Today at 01:23:48 AM »



Venus is above the horizon for about the same time as any planet or star... from the time it rises until the time it sets. I think where your flerfer is confused is that Venus one of the few sky objects visible during the daytime if you know where to look - I have observed Venus at near midday on a number of occasions. The star Sirius (Alpha Canis Majoris) is another one that it visible during daylight. However, like Mercury, Venus is inside our orbit, so it never gets more west or east of the sun than the number of degree that equals its maximum elongation. For Venus that's 47° and for Mercury its 18°, i.e.you can only eve see Venus a maximum of  47° "left" or "right" of the Sun - you can see Venus "all day" but not for 24 hours and never more than about three hours after sunset, or three hours before sunrise.

Which is basically the answer I gave to the the flat Earther, but his question related to Venus being visible many hours after sunset. Now it is possible for Venus to be viewed as much as 4 hours after sunset. However the Sun can hover just below the horizon at certain times of year in the north or south. Is it possible therefore for Venus to be seen as a nighttime object for 24 hours, as claimed by this flat Earther?
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General Discussion / Re: Venus astronomy question
« Last post by smartcooky on June 09, 2023, 06:21:53 PM »
In answering a silly flat Earth believer regarding the amount of time that Venus is above the horizon. He said that Venus in 2015 was viewable for 24hours. Now I dismissed that, but on reflection is it possible for Venus to be visible all night when viewed from an extreme northerly or southern latitude, when the sun stays just below the horizon just before or just after the equinoxes? Logic says that it is possible for Venus to hover above the horizon for 24 hours, but the angle to the plane of the ecliptic must be nearly 90degs. But is it a fact, if it is, it would be rare. The internet seems to be split but my logic says it is technically possible.. Thoughts…

Venus is above the horizon for about the same time as any planet or star... from the time it rises until the time it sets. I think where your flerfer is confused is that Venus one of the few sky objects visible during the daytime if you know where to look - I have observed Venus at near midday on a number of occasions. The star Sirius (Alpha Canis Majoris) is another one that it visible during daylight. However, like Mercury, Venus is inside our orbit, so it never gets more west or east of the sun than the number of degree that equals its maximum elongation. For Venus that's 47° and for Mercury its 18°, i.e.you can only eve see Venus a maximum of  47° "left" or "right" of the Sun - you can see Venus "all day" but not for 24 hours and never more than about three hours after sunset, or three hours before sunrise.   
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General Discussion / Re: Venus astronomy question
« Last post by Allan F on June 09, 2023, 12:56:46 PM »
Have you considered Stellarium or some other skyviewing software? I don't have an answer, sorry.
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General Discussion / Venus astronomy question
« Last post by Bryanpoprobson on June 09, 2023, 04:33:57 AM »
In answering a silly flat Earth believer regarding the amount of time that Venus is above the horizon. He said that Venus in 2015 was viewable for 24hours. Now I dismissed that, but on reflection is it possible for Venus to be visible all night when viewed from an extreme northerly or southern latitude, when the sun stays just below the horizon just before or just after the equinoxes? Logic says that it is possible for Venus to hover above the horizon for 24 hours, but the angle to the plane of the ecliptic must be nearly 90degs. But is it a fact, if it is, it would be rare. The internet seems to be split but my logic says it is technically possible.. Thoughts…
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General Discussion / Re: Starship!
« Last post by bknight on May 28, 2023, 09:43:32 AM »
I would like some of our "rocket scientists" here have a look at this video and offer their opinions. It is an animated render and commentary giving a brief explanation of how the water-cooled steel plate system is supposed to work. Its from Alpha Tech's YouTube channel, with the computer rendering by Ryan Hansen. Credit to both of them for this excellent presentation.

Note: right-click on the link and choose to play it in a new tab. It will play a short (1m 41s) video in Dropbox

https://www.dropbox.com/s/1zi550dn801f41m/Starship%20Deluge.mp4?raw=1

As most of you already know, I am an aeronautical engineer (retired), but not an aerospace engineer. While the two disciplines share a lot of common ground, there are aspects of "rocket science" that are outside my pay-grade.
 
In particular, there are some statements made that I am doubting the accuracy of. I would appreciate any comments on some of these technical details.

1. The claimed "established temperature gradient" between the rocket exhaust at the point it leaves the ending bells and the water cooled plate
2. "In the centre of the plate, the water pressure is higher than the exhaust pressure"
3. "The exhaust never touches the plate"
4. If the water flow is maintained at a high enough rate, they can keep the temperature at the plate below 1000°C
5. In the real world, the plate never sees more than a couple of hundred degrees C

I'm not an aerospace engineer either but have some experience with high flow water rates/pressures.
It seems to me that 2,3,4 are dictated by a high enough rate to prove all the cases correct.  Since I don't know the temperature of the exhaust nor the profile of the exhaust i can't peak of those parameters.  I suspect they have either modelled or calculated the exhaust from engine bell to tip of exhaust, so they know the temperature/pressure regime that the water flow will experience and then back calculate how much flow is needed to offset the exhaust.  I don't know the diameter of the holes nor the number of the holes, but this two would be a somewhat easy calculation in fluid flow requirements.
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General Discussion / Re: Starship!
« Last post by smartcooky on May 28, 2023, 07:14:14 AM »
I would like some of our "rocket scientists" here have a look at this video and offer their opinions. It is an animated render and commentary giving a brief explanation of how the water-cooled steel plate system is supposed to work. Its from Alpha Tech's YouTube channel, with the computer rendering by Ryan Hansen. Credit to both of them for this excellent presentation.

Note: right-click on the link and choose to play it in a new tab. It will play a short (1m 41s) video in Dropbox

https://www.dropbox.com/s/1zi550dn801f41m/Starship%20Deluge.mp4?raw=1

As most of you already know, I am an aeronautical engineer (retired), but not an aerospace engineer. While the two disciplines share a lot of common ground, there are aspects of "rocket science" that are outside my pay-grade.
 
In particular, there are some statements made that I am doubting the accuracy of. I would appreciate any comments on some of these technical details.

1. The claimed "established temperature gradient" between the rocket exhaust at the point it leaves the ending bells and the water cooled plate
2. "In the centre of the plate, the water pressure is higher than the exhaust pressure"
3. "The exhaust never touches the plate"
4. If the water flow is maintained at a high enough rate, they can keep the temperature at the plate below 1000°C
5. In the real world, the plate never sees more than a couple of hundred degrees C



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General Discussion / Re: Kids say the darnedest things...
« Last post by Bryanpoprobson on May 28, 2023, 01:31:40 AM »

Proud of my granddaughter Eva, won 3 out of 3 of her Ju Jitsu matches, which considering they banned her glasses, without which she is virtually blind, was some feat.
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