Author Topic: The Trump Presidency  (Read 409856 times)

Offline Obviousman

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1965 on: January 14, 2021, 03:07:25 PM »
...which means the ministers have to be constantly on top of their portfolios.

You missed a word there, Pete: THEORETICALLY they have to be on top of their portfolios. As we both know, that is often not the case.

Offline Jason Thompson

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1966 on: January 14, 2021, 03:12:20 PM »
It was Blackadder but still classic British comedy so I'll let you have that one... ;)

Which also has some enjoyable election bits.  PItt the Embryo?

"I shall be brief, as I have, rather unfortunately, become Prime Minster right in the middle of my exams."
"There's this idea that everyone's opinion is equally valid. My arse! Bloke who was a professor of dentistry for forty years does NOT have a debate with some eejit who removes his teeth with string and a door!"  - Dara O'Briain

Offline Jason Thompson

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1967 on: January 14, 2021, 03:24:16 PM »
Indeed the election-results bits of Monty Python are some of my favorites.

It was Blackadder but still classic British comedy so I'll let you have that one... ;)

I caught it!

Yay! I never quite know how some references are going to work on an internet forum. I know Monty Python had a worldwide following but I'm not sure how far Blackadder went. Still one of my all time favourite comedies.

"And I'll just take a look at the latest exit poll, which revealed a 100% result for... 'mind your own business you nosy bastard'."

Quote
I can criticize every Democratic leader of my lifetime.  The difference between me and every Trump supporter I've encountered so far is that not a one of them seem to be able to point to anything they don't like about him that they don't follow with "but both sides."

The 'both sides' business that has become so common lately is the most infuriating argument ever. People deploy it in the belief that it does one of two things, or preferably both: weakens the other person's position by pointing out that the other person isn't perfect, or strengthens theirs by an 'if it's okay for them it's okay for us' attitude. It fails for may reasons, not least because a) it is based on the absurd oversimplified notion that in criticising one candidate you are implying the other is somehow perfect, and b) when was the last time your parents let you get away with something on the basis that your friends did it too?! It's absurdly childish.

And no, none of what has played out recently has any kind of 'both sides' argument to it. Trump supporters turned up to the Capitol in combat gear and with weapons and stormed the building because they can't believe that their little orange demi-god might have actually lost the election. The 'other side' has never even attempted that.

I think Boris Johnson is a clown, a liar and to some degree a narcissist, utterly unsuited to his office and making so many u-turns it's amazing he can even stand at the dispatch box without getting dizzy, but I also think the opposition needs to pull their socks up and effectively oppose. Frankly Kier Starmer is a lot more impressive going up against Johnson in the commons than Corbyn ever was, so I have hopes that we may see some improvement in the coming years. My worry is what damage can be done in the meantime.
"There's this idea that everyone's opinion is equally valid. My arse! Bloke who was a professor of dentistry for forty years does NOT have a debate with some eejit who removes his teeth with string and a door!"  - Dara O'Briain

Offline Obviousman

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1968 on: January 14, 2021, 03:45:53 PM »
although AFAIK that only requires a simple majority.

Correct.  In the 1936 trial of the impeached Judge Robert Archibald, the Senate determined that, pursuant to an earlier trial of a different judge, the order to remove from office was mandatory upon conviction, but that the order to disqualify from future office was a severable discretionary question and subject only to a simple majority vote, which in Judge Archibald's case, carried and resulted in both his dismissal from office and his disqualification under Art. II § 3.  (Cannon. Precedents of the House of Representatives § 512)

If we just want to stop him holding any public office every again, what about the 14th Amendment, Section 3? That only requires a majority as well.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/amendmentxiv
« Last Edit: January 14, 2021, 03:49:44 PM by Obviousman »

Offline JayUtah

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1969 on: January 14, 2021, 06:24:38 PM »
The only invocation of the 14th Amendment, section 3, that I'm aware of is the famous denial to seat Victor Berger, who was then under criminal indictment for activities related to protesting World War 1, in the House of Representatives.  Then, it was the House who invoked it solely within the confines of their own jurisdiction.  Any House of Congress can set the rules, within the Constitution, for the seating of its Members.  The House committee that sat to consider Berger's situation concluded that he should not be seated.  But this precedent has no force outside the House, nor even much inside the House.

The Due Process clause of that same Amendment would generally require some kind of process in connection with the denial of the right of a person duly elected to an office to take that office.  Congress cannot simply declare Donald J. Trump guilty of some particular crime of insurrection or what have you.  That's a bill of attainder, expressly forbidden in the Constitution.  Applying this Amendment pre-emptively is uncharted territory.  It's not clear how this passage of the Constitution would be invoked, or who would invoke it, in the situation we have here.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline Obviousman

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1970 on: January 14, 2021, 06:42:40 PM »
Thank you!

Offline gillianren

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1971 on: January 15, 2021, 10:59:33 AM »
I had a friend ask on Facebook what the point of this is, this close to the inauguration.  Surely Congress has better things to do with its time.  I mentioned both precedent and prevention from holding further office as being worth it.  I also invited a friend who lives in our old apartment complex to stay with us if she and her family--especially her son--feel unsafe that close to the center of things here.
"This sounds like a job for Bipolar Bear . . . but I just can't seem to get out of bed!"

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Offline JayUtah

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1972 on: January 15, 2021, 02:01:35 PM »
There is an armed protest scheduled at our state capitol building on Sunday.  I have friends who live on our local capitol hill, and I'm also trying to find vacant apartments, etc., they can stay in COVIDly-safely for the weekend.  This is the literal definition of terrorism.

Back to the Fourteenth Amendment...

As with the other Reconstruction Amendment, the originalist interpretation takes its cues from the aftermath of the Civil War.  The point of Section 3 is to prevent former Confederates from holding office in the (re-)United States government and attempting to rebuild the Confederacy from within.  So the sedition spoken of in the Amendment could be considered limited in its intent.

Despite its being the supreme law of the land, there's little a private citizen can do to violate it.  It's mostly a limit on what laws the government can pass and enforce.  So with some possibly rare exceptions that I might think of later, only the government can violate the Constitution.  Any action authorized by the 14th Amendment that would prevent Donald Trump from holding any future office would need to take the form of some branch of the government withholding its cooperation or assent in some part of the electoral process.

For example, a State could refuse to accept Trump for its ballot, citing the 14th Amendment.   Or they could refuse to certify his slate of electors.  Or the Congress could vote to disqualify his electoral votes.

The problem in all of that is the legally cognizable definition of what it means to "engage[] in insurrection or rebellion against the same [Constitution], or give[] aid or comfort to the enemies thereof."  The Constitution doesn't define any of those terms.  Under lesser U.S. law, those terms are defined, and in many cases the activities they represent are outlawed.  But if we're going to use those definitions, then the President would need to have been convicted of one of those offenses.  Or if not, by what other standard would he have been judged to have committed any of the acts that disqualify him?  Due process means it can't just be the judgment of some random government functionary that Trump committed disqualifying acts.

One of the oldest and most important cases in American jurisprudence, Marbury v. Madison, held that a person elected to an office has a right to take that office.  Unfortunately things didn't work out completely for Judge Marbury, but that part of the holding in his case is still valid.  (The rest of the complaint was dismissed on standing.)  But it means that whoever in the government, in his official capacity, acts to prevent an elected Donald Trump from taking his office has the burden of proof.  If Congress disqualified Trump's eventual electoral votes on 14th Amendment grounds, he could sue the Houses of Congress (I believe in the DC circuit) and he would have the presumption of the right to office.

Similarly, while States may place reasonable administrative restrictions or limits on the declaration of candidacy for any office whose election they control, they may not otherwise disqualify candidates who meet eligibility requirements.  The adjudication of whether Trump is eligible to declare his candidacy in a State, under the 14th Amendment, would therefore come in the form of a relevant State authority refusing the otherwise properly-filed candidacy papers, and then a suit in State court to determine whether the 14th Amendment bars his candidacy.  And since such a suit would raise a "federal question," it would be reviewable in the U.S. Supreme Court, where Donald Trump might still have favor.  If Trump had not been previously convicted of anything, he would enjoy the presumption of eligibility.

Section 5 is the kicker.  It, like many parts of the Constitution, authorizes Congress to enforce by legislation the provisions of the Amendment.  A court could easily find that the Congress has done so, in the form of laws defining crimes for sedition, giving aid and comfort to the enemy, and so forth.  That standard having been set, a conviction on one of those charges may be required in order for it to properly authorize any government officer to invoke the 14th Amendment.

But maybe Congress never intended those to be the implementation of the Amendment.  And we have to consider that Victor Berger was refused his seat in the House (and did not choose to invoke Marbury), merely because he was under indictment for crimes that stemmed from disqualifying acts.  (He was later convicted, but the House acted before conviction.)

As I said, turbulent, uncharted waters.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline Obviousman

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1973 on: January 16, 2021, 02:20:02 AM »
It's been said before, and I'll say it again: you are a smart man, Jay.

Offline gillianren

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1974 on: January 16, 2021, 11:34:59 AM »
I have had one teacher in my life who I believe would be capable of conveying this particular information as clearly and succinctly as you, Jay.  She's a wonderful woman--and still my Facebook friend, in fact--and that is good company to be in.
"This sounds like a job for Bipolar Bear . . . but I just can't seem to get out of bed!"

"Conspiracy theories are an irresistible labour-saving device in the face of complexity."  --Henry Louis Gates

Offline JayUtah

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1975 on: January 16, 2021, 12:35:25 PM »
Thanks, folks!  I know I tend to go off on tangents or use too many words.  It's pleasing to learn that at least some of them land.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline Peter B

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1976 on: January 16, 2021, 05:31:54 PM »
...which means the ministers have to be constantly on top of their portfolios.

You missed a word there, Pete: THEORETICALLY they have to be on top of their portfolios. As we both know, that is often not the case.

Yeah, good point.

A hapless Opposition Leader pretty much lets the PM get away with doing their job unchallenged, meaning policies don't get the scrutiny they may require.

By contrast, an effective Opposition Leader can open up fault lines within the governing party which in turn can lead to Prime Ministerial paralysis (especially if the PM is unpopular in their own party).

Offline JayUtah

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1977 on: January 17, 2021, 06:03:22 PM »
There is an armed protest scheduled at our state capitol building on Sunday.

A whopping 15 people showed up.  There were about 200 National Guardsmen there, backing up the normal garrison of a couple dozen state police officers.  The worst that happened was that people in passing cars yelled things out the window.  No attempt made to enter the capitol.

Maybe the message is sinking in:  you're not "patriots" saving the country from itself.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline jfb

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1978 on: January 17, 2021, 08:04:14 PM »
There is an armed protest scheduled at our state capitol building on Sunday.

A whopping 15 people showed up.  There were about 200 National Guardsmen there, backing up the normal garrison of a couple dozen state police officers.  The worst that happened was that people in passing cars yelled things out the window.  No attempt made to enter the capitol.

Maybe the message is sinking in:  you're not "patriots" saving the country from itself.

Austin had 4. 

No sleep until after the inauguration, though.

Offline Obviousman

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1979 on: January 17, 2021, 10:18:10 PM »
Do you think that Rudi might be actually losing mental competence? I don't mean as some insult but actually losing it?

https://www.news.com.au/world/north-america/us-politics/rudy-giulianis-impeachment-trial-claim-denied-by-trump-campaign/news-story/22341ca01de2233c7a14fe080ffea933