Author Topic: A few simple questions for conspiracy theorists  (Read 187280 times)

Offline geo7863

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Re: A few simple questions for conspiracy theorists
« Reply #75 on: April 14, 2013, 08:58:07 AM »

Well, interesting, I would ask the same from the debunkers, why do all this effort in making sites, attacking the disbelievers etc. etc. I really cannot imagine people doing that, other than those paid to do it.


So by balancing logic that means you are paid to perpetuate the hoax theory? may I ask how much? because I need a new extension built and NASA aren't paying me enough to debunk hoax theories!


I like to look at the subject as a historical and cultural exponent of totalitary imperialism at its best. How do States get people to believe and see what the State wants them to believe. How do you get people to abondon reasonable thinking, how do you control the information they get, how do you brainwash the small amount of people you need to manipulate the rest.

So you are convinced that 'the State' has brainwashed thousands (if not millions) of people? that every single person, every last one, involved with the Apollo project are liars... every one! They lied to their wives and children, their mothers and fathers, their friends and themselves? They lied to the world for over fourty years and are continuing to lie...every single person! maybe they are all lying because of NASA/CIA death squads willing to extinguish their lives at the drop of a hat....You call that reasonable thinking?  I call that anything but reasonable I call it paranoia.

If you think everyone, absolutely everyone is willing to lie to such a depth how can you believe that not a single Hoax believer has made a single lie in their theories? Do Hoax believers haver a higher level of integrity than every single person who knows Apollo happened? Because if you believe that you do, then I believe you have not the slightest shred of honour in your body!

And endless source of interest I may say, where I look at a couple of times a year.

But how do you do to manage to not see this right before your eyes, maybe participating in it, how do you manage to explain this to yourself?

I wonder, I really wonder...

We don't see it (edited to add... this whole brainwashing mumbo jumbo) because it isn't happening and never did, we explain this to ourselves with learning, with discussion, with observing the REAL world...how do you explain yourself?
« Last Edit: April 14, 2013, 09:18:08 AM by geo7863 »

Offline AtomicDog

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Re: A few simple questions for conspiracy theorists
« Reply #76 on: April 14, 2013, 09:31:53 AM »
Wow. Playing the "paid shill" card before presenting a single piece of evidence.  That's bold.
"There is no belief, however foolish, that will not gather its faithful adherents who will defend it to the death." - Isaac Asimov

Offline geo7863

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Re: A few simple questions for conspiracy theorists
« Reply #77 on: April 14, 2013, 09:48:32 AM »
and to take it further... if NASA/CIA has successfully over 40 odd years kept a lid on this great 'Hoax' how have they done it? there were approx. 400,000 people involved with Apollo, say just 5% knew that it was a scam...5% is 20,000 people.

So NASA/CIA have managed to place surveillance on 20,000 people for 40 years to stop them from talking? of course out of those 20,000 people some will have died of natural causes, but some will have at least told their wives, so we can still assume around 20,000 people who need to be kept silent.

How many people do you think it takes to place physical surveillance on someone, let alone electronic surveillance? how about a minimum (absolute barest minimum) of ten people working in shifts 24 hours for 40 years? seem feasible to you Believer?

As I said that doesn't include electronic surveillance, I have no experience of that! so ten people for each 20,000 means you need 200,000 NASA/CIA operatives (at a minimum)to have kept the lid on things....for 40 years!

So they can successfully keep the NASA/Grumman/Boeing employees of the Apollo Project silent presumably with threats of assassination...but cant silence the 'Truth discoverers' such as Bart Sibrel, Jarrah White etc...... still seem feasible to you Believer?

Offline Sus_pilot

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A few simple questions for conspiracy theorists
« Reply #78 on: April 14, 2013, 10:25:31 AM »
Thanks LO.

Along those lines, I'd like to ask a question that was moved to the Abandon All Hope forum at JREF when I asked it of PK1000:  why are you, the hoax believer, so emotionally invested in proving that we didn't go to the moon?  Why won't you accept reasonable explanations from reasonable people that it happened? 

As I said then, it's OK to disagree with the program, the money and effort spent and so on.  But going to nearly the same effort to fit the Apollo record into a hoax theory as it does to make a geocentric model of the Solar system fit observations just makes no sense...

Well, interesting, I would ask the same from the debunkers, why do all this effort in making sites, attacking the disbelievers etc. etc. I really cannot imagine people doing that, other than those paid to do it.

I like to look at the subject as a historical and cultural exponent of totalitary imperialism at its best. How do States get people to believe and see what the State wants them to believe. How do you get people to abondon reasonable thinking, how do you control the information they get, how do you brainwash the small amount of people you need to manipulate the rest.

And endless source of interest I may say, where I look at a couple of times a year.

But how do you do to manage to not see this, right before your eyes, maybe participating in it, how do you manage to explain this to yourself?

I wonder, I really wonder...

Although she doesn't realize it, Andromeda answered very well on my behalf.  Other then the fact that I was alive during that time-period and witnessed, albeit via the media, the events as they happened, the simplest, most logical way to fit the record together is that it all happened as documented.

Now, Believer, you still haven't answered my question to you and your ilk:  why is it so important to prove us wrong?

Offline Laurel

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Re: A few simple questions for conspiracy theorists
« Reply #79 on: April 14, 2013, 10:55:34 AM »
and to take it further... if NASA/CIA has successfully over 40 odd years kept a lid on this great 'Hoax' how have they done it? there were approx. 400,000 people involved with Apollo, say just 5% knew that it was a scam...5% is 20,000 people.

So NASA/CIA have managed to place surveillance on 20,000 people for 40 years to stop them from talking? of course out of those 20,000 people some will have died of natural causes, but some will have at least told their wives, so we can still assume around 20,000 people who need to be kept silent.

How many people do you think it takes to place physical surveillance on someone, let alone electronic surveillance? how about a minimum (absolute barest minimum) of ten people working in shifts 24 hours for 40 years? seem feasible to you Believer?

As I said that doesn't include electronic surveillance, I have no experience of that! so ten people for each 20,000 means you need 200,000 NASA/CIA operatives (at a minimum)to have kept the lid on things....for 40 years!

So they can successfully keep the NASA/Grumman/Boeing employees of the Apollo Project silent presumably with threats of assassination...but cant silence the 'Truth discoverers' such as Bart Sibrel, Jarrah White etc...... still seem feasible to you Believer?
Remember the old saying: they're NASA, they can do anything, except actually fly to the Moon. ;)
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Offline Believer

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Re: A few simple questions for conspiracy theorists
« Reply #80 on: April 14, 2013, 11:13:57 AM »
Because we find the Apollo missions interesting and amazing and like talking about them.

Me too, but I wondered not about that, I wonder about the energy put in the debunking.

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If discussing the historical facts and examining the engineering technology is "attacking" in your world, then I don't know what to tell you. 

I wonder how you manage to get this confused with debunking. I see the debunking, and it is totally something else then discussing the historical facts and examining the engineering technology.

So please answer the question of the why of debunking itself, what is in it for you?

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We do not attack - we defend against libellous and slanderous claims, we point out the errors and deliberate misinformation.

OK, but why would individuals have to do that, could NASA not do that? You would have more time for your hobby of Apollo itself?

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I really cannot imagine people doing that, other than those paid to do it.
What you can or cannot imagine has no bearing on fact. 
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By your logic, no-one would ever have a hobby because they weren't being paid for it.  Learning about Apollo is one of my hobbies.

The separation of the hobby and the debunking should make you see the logic, and raise the question anew

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I am not paranoid, I do not see the "brainwashing" etc that you claim simply because it isn't there.  I have plenty of scientific and historical knowledge, as well as logic and critical thinking skills, to examine the evidence and conclude that Apollo happened as presented in the historical record.

Well, that is what I would like to challenge, I hope your thinking capabilities will prevent you from bashing and enter the questions and answers I have.

For a starter: To not see the brainwashing I claim there is, 'because it is not there', is not the convincing argument for me. I hope you can see that in logic 'it is not because it is not' cannot be.

Then, I think there is an analogy between the former Nazi doctrines and the US doctrines of this moment. There were intelligent people there, they succeeded in forming a logical system, the 'truth' according to their believe sytem. In the US is the 'homeland security' doctrine the same, and I think in the Apollo era a similar doctrine was happening in the Nasa circles. That should give some clues about the historical perspective, maybe it rings some bells?

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I note that you have presented no evidence, nor shown how you have drawn your "conclusions".  All you have done is launch insults.

I am really sorry that you could see insults in my post, I really don't do this. See, that is why I suspect some Nasa officials behind your identities, it is simply too strange what you say.

Why would you want to see insults in it??

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Using your worldview as discussed above, I could claim that you are being paid to spread such claims...  ;)

I challenge you to find out, I told I would not lie, so you could use that to see what it is all about.

Offline Believer

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Re: A few simple questions for conspiracy theorists
« Reply #81 on: April 14, 2013, 11:21:18 AM »
Now, Believer, you still haven't answered my question to you and your ilk:  why is it so important to prove us wrong?

Well your question was as I believe: 'Why do you all lie',

I answered that with 'I don't lie'.  And I challenge you that test that....

But I will answer your second question. I it important to establish some kind of truth for humanity as a whole. It it important to struggle forwar as nations and peoples to some kind of world peace. You see my hopes are moderate.

A free press, freedom of speach are very important to this goal of some more truth and peace.

And the debunking is just countering that with the evil face of repression and totalitarianism.

So in my modest way I try to see if you are genuine, and might be wanting to argue with reason. The first post indicated some emotion so I would not expect that from some cool Nasa operator.

But I wonder.

Offline Donnie B.

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Re: A few simple questions for conspiracy theorists
« Reply #82 on: April 14, 2013, 11:22:20 AM »
Believer, regarding your question as to why people here debunk the Apollo hoax nonsense:

Besides the fact that answering the (occasional new) hoax claims allows us to dig deeper into the Apollo record and learn new things about the missions and technology, there is this:

http://xkcd.com/386/

Offline Andromeda

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Re: A few simple questions for conspiracy theorists
« Reply #83 on: April 14, 2013, 11:25:01 AM »
Because we find the Apollo missions interesting and amazing and like talking about them.

Me too, but I wondered not about that, I wonder about the energy put in the debunking.

I enjoy it, and see it as my role as a physicist and teacher to correct misinformation.


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If discussing the historical facts and examining the engineering technology is "attacking" in your world, then I don't know what to tell you. 

I wonder how you manage to get this confused with debunking. I see the debunking, and it is totally something else then discussing the historical facts and examining the engineering technology.

So please answer the question of the why of debunking itself, what is in it for you?

I enjoy it.


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We do not attack - we defend against libellous and slanderous claims, we point out the errors and deliberate misinformation.

OK, but why would individuals have to do that, could NASA not do that? You would have more time for your hobby of Apollo itself?

It isn't NASA's job.  They provide all the relevant technical information if you could be bothered to read it.  Do you honestly think US tax money should be spent on debunking woo woo?


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I really cannot imagine people doing that, other than those paid to do it.
What you can or cannot imagine has no bearing on fact. 
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By your logic, no-one would ever have a hobby because they weren't being paid for it.  Learning about Apollo is one of my hobbies.

The separation of the hobby and the debunking should make you see the logic, and raise the question anew

Debunking HB nonsense is my hobby.  How many times do I have to tell you that?


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I am not paranoid, I do not see the "brainwashing" etc that you claim simply because it isn't there.  I have plenty of scientific and historical knowledge, as well as logic and critical thinking skills, to examine the evidence and conclude that Apollo happened as presented in the historical record.
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Well, that is what I would like to challenge, I hope your thinking capabilities will prevent you from bashing and enter the questions and answers I have.

For a starter: To not see the brainwashing I claim there is, 'because it is not there', is not the convincing argument for me. I hope you can see that in logic 'it is not because it is not' cannot be.

Then, I think there is an analogy between the former Nazi doctrines and the US doctrines of this moment. There were intelligent people there, they succeeded in forming a logical system, the 'truth' according to their believe sytem. In the US is the 'homeland security' doctrine the same, and I think in the Apollo era a similar doctrine was happening in the Nasa circles. That should give some clues about the historical perspective, maybe it rings some bells?

You are the one making the claim, the burden of proof rests with you and you have provided no proof.


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I note that you have presented no evidence, nor shown how you have drawn your "conclusions".  All you have done is launch insults.

I am really sorry that you could see insults in my post, I really don't do this. See, that is why I suspect some Nasa officials behind your identities, it is simply too strange what you say.

Why would you want to see insults in it??

I don't "want" to see insults, but when someone accuses me of being part of a widespread conspiracy that damages the world, yes I am insulted.  Accusations of being a liar, and a paid shill, are also insults.  I also find nonpologies insulting.


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Using your worldview as discussed above, I could claim that you are being paid to spread such claims...  ;)

I challenge you to find out, I told I would not lie, so you could use that to see what it is all about.

I have no idea what you are trying to say here.  I suspect you don't either.
"The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'" - Isaac Asimov.

Offline Believer

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Re: A few simple questions for conspiracy theorists
« Reply #84 on: April 14, 2013, 11:26:36 AM »


I will be happy to react to your post if you react on whay I say, you induce several issues, and then react to them. So please simplify your points

Offline Andromeda

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Re: A few simple questions for conspiracy theorists
« Reply #85 on: April 14, 2013, 11:27:50 AM »
Now, Believer, you still haven't answered my question to you and your ilk:  why is it so important to prove us wrong?

Well your question was as I believe: 'Why do you all lie',

I answered that with 'I don't lie'.  And I challenge you that test that....

But I will answer your second question. I it important to establish some kind of truth for humanity as a whole. It it important to struggle forwar as nations and peoples to some kind of world peace. You see my hopes are moderate.

A free press, freedom of speach are very important to this goal of some more truth and peace.

And the debunking is just countering that with the evil face of repression and totalitarianism.

So in my modest way I try to see if you are genuine, and might be wanting to argue with reason. The first post indicated some emotion so I would not expect that from some cool Nasa operator.

But I wonder.

Oh right, yeah, we are all a part of "teh ebil gub'mint conspiracy!"

 ::)

FFS no one here works for NASA.  Why are you people so insistent that we do?  Does it not occur to you that there are physicists and engineers all over the world, unconnected with the US Government, who are interested in the science that occured simply because it is what we do?
"The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'" - Isaac Asimov.

Offline LunarOrbit

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Re: A few simple questions for conspiracy theorists
« Reply #86 on: April 14, 2013, 11:28:58 AM »
I am a believer in the Hoax theorie, and I will not lie. I may not answer, but I promise you I will not lie.

Why avoid answering questions? If you have the truth on your side you have nothing to hide. Not answering questions can itself be considered deception.

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Now I have a question for you, how can you assume that everybody not believing in the Apollo myth is lying

I don't assume any such thing. I made it perfectly clear who I'm talking about: the conspiracy theorists who claim to be doctors/scientists/engineers but really aren't. I'm talking about the people who create multiple accounts to create a false impression that they have supporters, or take information out of context to make it appear to support their arguments. Those people are liars, and it just makes me wonder why they need to lie if the truth is on their side.

There are people who are victims of the liars and con artists who spread the hoax theory, but they aren't the ones using the deceptive tactics I mentioned above. They just have questions and will typically admit they are wrong once given the proper facts. But honestly, these people tend to be quiet and lurk, we don't see a lot of them here.

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where does that come from, is that your experience, or are you just poking around to generate some turmoil?

It comes from over 12 years of dealing with conspiracy theorists. I decided to ask the questions because I'm not sure conspiracy theorists see the dishonesty in their behaviour.

There is plenty of turmoil already, I don't need to generate any.

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Well, interesting, I would ask the same from the debunkers, why do all this effort in making sites, attacking the disbelievers etc. etc. I really cannot imagine people doing that, other than those paid to do it.

Do you get paid to spread lies about Apollo? No? Then why do you do it? Why is it so important to you if you aren't being paid?

I can't speak for everyone, but I find Apollo (and pretty much any other space program) fascinating. I would talk about it even without the hoax theory being involved. But I guess it annoys me to see people lie about historic events and defame the people involved without being challenged on it. If someone wants to say going to the Moon is impossible because of X then I will demand that they prove it.

And for the record, I haven't made a penny from this. In fact it has cost me money. Let's see... $150/year for web hosting over the last 8 years... that's $1200. Not a lot of money, and I'm certainly not complaining. Some people have more expensive hobbies.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2013, 11:36:59 AM by LunarOrbit »
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Offline Laurel

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Re: A few simple questions for conspiracy theorists
« Reply #87 on: April 14, 2013, 11:30:20 AM »
It isn't NASA's job.  They provide all the relevant technical information if you could be bothered to read it.  Do you honestly think US tax money should be spent on debunking woo woo?
Just to add something here, NASA was planning to commission a book about the Moon hoax claims once, and there was a public outcry about spending tax money on it, so they abandoned the idea.
"Well, my feet they finally took root in the earth, but I got me a nice little place in the stars, and I swear I found the key to the universe in the engine of an old parked car..."
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Offline Jason Thompson

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Re: A few simple questions for conspiracy theorists
« Reply #88 on: April 14, 2013, 11:46:01 AM »
Me too, but I wondered not about that, I wonder about the energy put in the debunking.

The energy is put in because it's a hobby. Why do i put energy into building model rockets, or into amateur dramatics? What's the difference?

But there is an extra element to the debunking: the conspiracy theories are wrong, and people are being hoodwinked. I will put extra energy into stopping people being deceived.

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I see the debunking, and it is totally something else then discussing the historical facts and examining the engineering technology.

Such as what?
 
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OK, but why would individuals have to do that, could NASA not do that?

Do you really not see the contradiction in asking why NASA can't do the debunking and accusing us of being NASA shills?

If you have already decided that NASA is lying, what value will you place on their word, or their evidence? They have presented ample evidence of their achievements. They have better things to do than argue with people with the stated aim of proving they are liars.

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The separation of the hobby and the debunking should make you see the logic, and raise the question anew

There is no separation.

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For a starter: To not see the brainwashing I claim there is, 'because it is not there', is not the convincing argument for me. I hope you can see that in logic 'it is not because it is not' cannot be.

And your assertion that 'it is because it is' is equally baseless. Provide your evidence for such brainwashing. Our conclusion that it is not there is based on quite some time observing and understanding the way reality works. Where is your evidence that brainwashing is taking place?

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Then, I think there is an analogy between the former Nazi doctrines and the US doctrines of this moment. There were intelligent people there, they succeeded in forming a logical system, the 'truth' according to their believe sytem. In the US is the 'homeland security' doctrine the same, and I think in the Apollo era a similar doctrine was happening in the Nasa circles. That should give some clues about the historical perspective, maybe it rings some bells?

Historical perspective is irrelevant. provide evidence.

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I am really sorry that you could see insults in my post, I really don't do this.

So accusing us of being NASA shills perpetuating lies is not an insult? What kind of world do you live in?

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See, that is why I suspect some Nasa officials behind your identities, it is simply too strange what you say.

And there you go again.

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I told I would not lie

And if you lied about that how would we know?

Stop dissembling and present your evidence if you have any. Just leave out the 'historical perspective' junk and the accusations of being paid NASA shills. Before any of that is even remotely relevant you have to show that Apollo was in fact faked. Can you do that?
"There's this idea that everyone's opinion is equally valid. My arse! Bloke who was a professor of dentistry for forty years does NOT have a debate with some eejit who removes his teeth with string and a door!"  - Dara O'Briain

Offline gillianren

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Re: A few simple questions for conspiracy theorists
« Reply #89 on: April 14, 2013, 12:13:12 PM »
I debunk because I believe in the importance of education.  I debunk because I think it is shameful that some take the accomplishments of brave and intelligent people and claim they never happened without even taking the time to understand what they're talking about.  I debunk because I believe that history matters.  I debunk because if we don't, why would anyone be willing to pay for a space program?  I debunk because, in my faith, fighting ignorance is a holy cause and lying about the past is a sin. 

I do not call all hoax believers liars.  Some are ignorant.  Some are misguided.  Some are more interested in an ideology than in the facts.  Some, sadly, are mentally ill.  The important similarity they share is that they are all wrong.
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