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Off Topic => General Discussion => Topic started by: Peter B on June 09, 2020, 09:06:20 PM

Title: Divided by a common language...
Post by: Peter B on June 09, 2020, 09:06:20 PM
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A fair point. Honestly, the way you colonials mangle the mother tongue... ;)

That's freedom for ya!

All seriousness aside, my penance as an actor is often having to perform English stage literature using the proper vocabulary and pronunciation.  Pygmalion doesn't really work with an American accent.  Conversely I have friends and acquaintances who are notable actors in or from England, who have also at times done American characters quite well in film and television.  According to them, the hardest word to say in properly rhotic English is "rural."  I proposed also "juror," and got no disagreement.  I'm told that prior to Received Pronunciation, the present Cornish accent is closer to what English used to sound like.  This may explain American.

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this is why 'Brahms and Liszt' is the cockney rhyming slang phrase for drunk, Liszt rhyming with pissed...

Ah, Cockney rhyming slang: the last bastion of utter incomprehensibility to anyone who's not from London.  Or Fred Dibnah to anyone not from Yorkshire.

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We say 'pissed off' to mean what I gather from TV shows most Americans mean when they say 'pissed'.

We use both interchangeably to mean angry.  In American in never means drunken.

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'Fanny' is another one to be very careful with....

Yes.  Most Americans have no idea why a fanny pack is worn in the front.

I thought this exchange worth preserving in a thread of its own, especially as there are so many different ways of speaking English.

Regarding the pre-RP pronunciation of English, I've read that David Prowse's West Country accent was the reason his voice was overdubbed with that of James Earl Jones as Darth Vader, with Prowse being labelled Darth Farmer on the set.

From an Australian perspective there's long been a fear of American slang overtaking Australian English. But British TV shows provide a ready supply of English idiom as well, and in any case we Australians continue to be creative when it comes to idiom. (I'm pretty sure I've met the guy who's generally credited as being the first to put the word "selfie" into written form, thanks to Dr Karl's Self-Service Science Forum.)

To follow up on Jay's comment about rhyming slang, it's something which has a place in Australian idiom too, though probably not as much now as a few decades ago. It's also impenetrably local - the examples which came to mind would all need to be explained more than is worth the hassle.

What I understand is our most noticeable contribution to English is our contractions. Back in the 1990s the American magician-comedian The Amazing Johnathan had an act about eating a biscuit (Aussie/English version) at an Australian breakfast barbecue, or an Aussie barbie brekky biccie, after which he had to get treatment for a speech impediment...boom-tish.

But the interesting thing about the Australian accent is how niche it seems to be. On the one hand, many Australians living overseas quickly pick up an overlay of the local accent. But on the other hand non-Australians find it really hard to fake an Aussie accent - most American attempts sound appalling to Australian ears and most English attempts sound more South African than Aussie. The couple of seconds of Tom Hanks's effort from SNL I heard recently weren't bad, but I don't know how much more he attempted on the show.

So here's your thread for any comments or observations about the various versions of English as it's spoken and written around the world, and the traps the unwary might stumble into.
Title: Re: Divided by a common language...
Post by: smartcooky on June 10, 2020, 04:10:48 AM
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A fair point. Honestly, the way you colonials mangle the mother tongue... ;)

That's freedom for ya!

All seriousness aside, my penance as an actor is often having to perform English stage literature using the proper vocabulary and pronunciation.  Pygmalion doesn't really work with an American accent.  Conversely I have friends and acquaintances who are notable actors in or from England, who have also at times done American characters quite well in film and television.  According to them, the hardest word to say in properly rhotic English is "rural."  I proposed also "juror," and got no disagreement.  I'm told that prior to Received Pronunciation, the present Cornish accent is closer to what English used to sound like.  This may explain American.

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this is why 'Brahms and Liszt' is the cockney rhyming slang phrase for drunk, Liszt rhyming with pissed...

Ah, Cockney rhyming slang: the last bastion of utter incomprehensibility to anyone who's not from London.  Or Fred Dibnah to anyone not from Yorkshire.

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We say 'pissed off' to mean what I gather from TV shows most Americans mean when they say 'pissed'.

We use both interchangeably to mean angry.  In American in never means drunken.

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'Fanny' is another one to be very careful with....

Yes.  Most Americans have no idea why a fanny pack is worn in the front.

I thought this exchange worth preserving in a thread of its own, especially as there are so many different ways of speaking English.

Regarding the pre-RP pronunciation of English, I've read that David Prowse's West Country accent was the reason his voice was overdubbed with that of James Earl Jones as Darth Vader, with Prowse being labelled Darth Farmer on the set.

From an Australian perspective there's long been a fear of American slang overtaking Australian English. But British TV shows provide a ready supply of English idiom as well, and in any case we Australians continue to be creative when it comes to idiom. (I'm pretty sure I've met the guy who's generally credited as being the first to put the word "selfie" into written form, thanks to Dr Karl's Self-Service Science Forum.)

To follow up on Jay's comment about rhyming slang, it's something which has a place in Australian idiom too, though probably not as much now as a few decades ago. It's also impenetrably local - the examples which came to mind would all need to be explained more than is worth the hassle.

What I understand is our most noticeable contribution to English is our contractions. Back in the 1990s the American magician-comedian The Amazing Johnathan had an act about eating a biscuit (Aussie/English version) at an Australian breakfast barbecue, or an Aussie barbie brekky biccie, after which he had to get treatment for a speech impediment...boom-tish.

But the interesting thing about the Australian accent is how niche it seems to be. On the one hand, many Australians living overseas quickly pick up an overlay of the local accent. But on the other hand non-Australians find it really hard to fake an Aussie accent - most American attempts sound appalling to Australian ears and most English attempts sound more South African than Aussie. The couple of seconds of Tom Hanks's effort from SNL I heard recently weren't bad, but I don't know how much more he attempted on the show.

So here's your thread for any comments or observations about the various versions of English as it's spoken and written around the world, and the traps the unwary might stumble into.

Many years ago, when I was still in the mob, I used to work in a place called EECC (known as "eeky squeeky"), the Electronic Equipment Calibration Centre, with a civilian tech called Jeff. He was from Seed Knee (that's Sydney for anyone not from Oz or NZ).

One day, after the pair of us had spent a particularly frustrating day trying to run down an obscure fault on a spectrum analyser (an HP8566B IIRC), Jeff invited me to go down to the (sgts) mess for a "schooner and rind o' peel".

Care to guess what this meant?
Title: Re: Divided by a common language...
Post by: BertieSlack on June 10, 2020, 10:14:05 AM
"Or Fred Dibnah to anyone not from Yorkshire."

Dear old Fred was from Lancashire.
Title: Re: Divided by a common language...
Post by: JayUtah on June 10, 2020, 11:52:14 AM
"Or Fred Dibnah to anyone not from Yorkshire."

Dear old Fred was from Lancashire.

Oh, that's right.  I looked that up once and forgot it.  I have a hard time distinguishing a Yorkshire accent from a Lancashire accent.
Title: Re: Divided by a common language...
Post by: Zakalwe on June 10, 2020, 11:55:01 AM
A conversation between two Cumbrians that I overheard has always stuck in my head:

Fred: 'ow's thee?
Jack: Fran, thissen?
Fred: Gran and gradley


Translation:

Fred: How are you?
Jack: I'm fine. And how are you?
Fred: Absolutely great
 :o
Title: Re: Divided by a common language...
Post by: Obviousman on June 10, 2020, 04:08:17 PM
I still retain a fair bit of "Jackspeak" - the slang of sailors. Plenty of occasions where I have said "Oi! Grab a quick tubs, get shifted and we'll step".
Title: Re: Divided by a common language...
Post by: BertieSlack on June 10, 2020, 04:31:18 PM
Oh, that's right.  I looked that up once and forgot it.  I have a hard time distinguishing a Yorkshire accent from a Lancashire accent.

I lived in Yorkshire for a few years and I could definitely tell the difference between them, but now I've been back down south for a while they seem to have merged together again. Would a Bostonian be able to differentiate a Texan from a Tennessean?
Title: Re: Divided by a common language...
Post by: JayUtah on June 10, 2020, 06:10:25 PM
I lived in Yorkshire for a few years and I could definitely tell the difference between them, but now I've been back down south for a while they seem to have merged together again. Would a Bostonian be able to differentiate a Texan from a Tennessean?

Quite possibly.  Obviously it depends on the particular Bostonian's ability to listen carefully.  But what I think you mean to ask is whether there are differences in the speech that would allow someone who isn't from either region to decide if the subjects are speaking the same accent.  The Texan accent is distinctive among other Southern states.  In Texan, for example, the intended diphthong in "die" or "flight" is pronounced as a flat "ah."    Conversely, single-syllable words like "flap" are dipthonged as "flay-up."  You don't near that in Tennessee.  Tennesseean is not particularly rhotic, as are a few other regional Southern accents.  "Your brother" in Texan would come out, "yer brutherr," but in Tennesseean sounds more like, "Yo' brothah."

But as I'm sure you'll agree, there are so many variables that it's hard to draw bright lines.  Someone from Utah would recognize a Boston accent, and an astute one could probably distinguish it from a New Hampshire accent.  A Bostonian, on the other hand, would be able to distinguish a Roxbury accent from a Dorcester accent, whereas I can't.
Title: Re: Divided by a common language...
Post by: Ranb on June 10, 2020, 10:24:02 PM
Jeff invited me to go down to the (sgts) mess for a "schooner and rind o' peel".

Care to guess what this meant?
Ale with a citrus slice on the rim?
Title: Re: Divided by a common language...
Post by: Peter B on June 11, 2020, 02:55:25 AM
Many years ago, when I was still in the mob, I used to work in a place called EECC (known as "eeky squeeky"), the Electronic Equipment Calibration Centre, with a civilian tech called Jeff. He was from Seed Knee (that's Sydney for anyone not from Oz or NZ).

What is this 'Seed Knee'? I've never heard that one before. The correct pronunciation is 'Sinney'. :-)

(Of course, I can't say anything - lazy pronunciation of 'Canberra' can sound like 'Cambra'.)

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One day, after the pair of us had spent a particularly frustrating day trying to run down an obscure fault on a spectrum analyser (an HP8566B IIRC), Jeff invited me to go down to the (sgts) mess for a "schooner and rind o' peel".

Care to guess what this meant?

Yes, well I know what a schooey is, but you've got me on rind o' peel. Is it a reference to that great Australian drink, the lemon lime and bitters?
Title: Re: Divided by a common language...
Post by: smartcooky on June 11, 2020, 08:18:00 AM
As it turned out a "schooner and a rind o' peel" was a "beer and a round of pool."

Go figure!
Title: Re: Divided by a common language...
Post by: JayUtah on June 11, 2020, 10:29:46 AM
Oh, heavens, there are two accents that always stump me when I have to produce them:  Scottish and Australian.

Bit of a diversion:  It, Chapter Two features two actors I know.  Taylor, who plays Don Hagarty, the boyfriend of the young gay man thrown off the bridge in the opening sequence, comes from my theatre company here in Utah.  We were in shows together when he was a teenager.  And Nic, who plays Henry Bowers, lives part-time in a Salt Lake City suburb and moves in some of the same social circles as I.  Also, I was in the 1990s television miniseries adaptation of Stephen King's The Stand (oddly and newly relevant now), so we share a bit of that too.  Most of "Denver" was shot in my neighborhood.  Nic is Australian, and he nails the American accent perfectly in the movie.  And he's been very patient with me when I try to grasp the physiology of Australian speech.

I've been trying to teach him the finer points of Utah's accent.  Sydney as "seed knee" makes so much more sense now, because one feature of the Utah accent is to reverse that.  We broaden and slacken the eccentric vowels.  "Well" (as an interjection) is pronounced "wuhl."  And "feel" is pronounced "fill."  "My" is "muh."  "To" is "tuh."  The one thing he takes to effortlessly is our glottals, which are common in, well, the Commonwealth, but fairly rare in American.  In Utah, the city name Layton is said "Lay'un."  Those things jutting up all around us are "mou'ins."

If you find video of our former governor, Michael Leavitt, you can hear a mild, genteel Utah accent.  He served in national administrations as well, so there's plenty of video of him.  Pay special attention to the subtle shapes of some of the vowels.  That's hard for non-natives to grasp, but it's very distinctive to the attuned ear.  But the real treat is if you can find audio of his wife, Jackie.  (Yes, Utah had a First Lady named Jackie.)  She has a strong northern Utah accent, which is both highly localized and almost comical in the same sort of lingual strictures that I hear in some Australian accents.

Title: Re: Divided by a common language...
Post by: gillianren on June 11, 2020, 11:54:00 AM
Okay, now you have to tell me where in The Stand I can find you--for after this is over, because there is no way I'm going to watch it right now.  I've been resisting a reread for months, because for some reason I always read it when I'm sick.  King himself has said that this is nothing like The Stand (and of course was promptly asked if he'd even read the book), but still.

It's also worth noting, as far as our hypothetical people from Yorkshire and Lancashire compared to our theoretical people from Texas and Tennessee, that the former live less than a hundred miles apart.  Our accents haven't had as long to develop, but they've had space
Title: Re: Divided by a common language...
Post by: JayUtah on June 11, 2020, 12:37:29 PM
Okay, now you have to tell me where in The Stand I can find you--for after this is over, because there is no way I'm going to watch it right now.

In a few of the large-scale scenes showing lots of diseased and deceased victims.  You won't recognize me, first because I was quite a bit younger.  And second, because I'm made-up to look like a super-flu victim.  I'm in the crowd-running scenes at "Area 51" in Independence Day too, but damned if I can find myself in it.  We're all just running specks.  I don't presently have a copy of the miniseries, and it's been nearly 30 years.  So I'm not sure where to direct you.  But I know it's been remade as a feature, so maybe there will be renewed interest in the miniseries and I can see where to look.

However, I will let you laugh at a scene that doesn't include me.  It's the establishment shot for the "Denver" train station.  It's our Rio Grande depot, and they tilt down from the murals on the walls to discover the characters.  The murals featuring Brigham Young and Mormon pioneers, an iconic Utah scene.

Fun fact:  the same airport (the former Wendover air force base, on the Utah-Nevada border) was used in Con Air.  And in real life it's the base where Col. Tibbitts and Enola Gay trained to drop the atomic bomb.

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King himself has said that this is nothing like The Stand (and of course was promptly asked if he'd even read the book), but still.

I've seen that particular tweet.  I agree that COVID-19 and the "super flu" aren't equivalent, but I still feel it's trying to portend something.

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Our accents haven't had as long to develop, but they've had space.

And now that space has been contracted by mass media, accents are starting to homogenize.  To be clear, I don't speak with a Utah accent.  I grew up in the Midwest, which has long been home to the "generic" American accent.  About the time radio was being nationalized, all the on-air voices were sent to schools in the Midwest to lose their regional accents.
Title: Re: Divided by a common language...
Post by: Bryanpoprobson on June 11, 2020, 04:38:35 PM
I did 2 weeks of factory release testing at Wiltron (a part of Amritsu) in Morgan Hill California. I spent the whole 2 weeks explaining that I was English and not Australian.
Title: Re: Divided by a common language...
Post by: JayUtah on June 11, 2020, 07:03:30 PM
Odd, in my experience the reverse error is more frequent.  Australian mistaken for English.
Title: Re: Divided by a common language...
Post by: Obviousman on June 11, 2020, 07:39:05 PM
That happened with me when I visited AMARG and the Pima Air Museum in Tucson, AZ. The hotel where i was staying had some Royal Air Force (RAF, the UK) people and we got to talking. Turns out that invariably the locals thought I was English, and the RAF guys were Australian.

I guess a similar thing happens between Americans and Canadians.
Title: Re: Divided by a common language...
Post by: Peter B on June 11, 2020, 08:29:23 PM
That happened with me when I visited AMARG and the Pima Air Museum in Tucson, AZ. The hotel where i was staying had some Royal Air Force (RAF, the UK) people and we got to talking. Turns out that invariably the locals thought I was English, and the RAF guys were Australian.

I guess a similar thing happens between Americans and Canadians.

I have 'South Park' to thank for pointing out the clue that you're listening to a Canadian rather than a USAnian.

When I was in the USA a few years ago I deliberately wore a sweatshirt with a stylised kangaroo and the word Australia to provide a bit of a clue to locals about my country of origin. I don't know whether it worked because no one mentioned it to me when I spoke to them. In fact not one American commented on my Australian-ness*, until the last day I was there when I said "G'day" to someone, which triggered a bit of a conversation.

But one situation where my accent was apparently a problem was at The Amazing Meeting, attending which was one of the reasons I was in the USA. At the end of a talk I wanted to ask a question of one of the panel of speakers (an American). I was handed a microphone and spoke my question, and I thought I spoke clearly. But despite the speaker asking me to repeat myself a couple of times he simply couldn't understand me. It took an Australian on the panel of speakers to understand me and repeat my question to the American.

* Earlier in the trip when I was staying at a motel in Houston the person at the front desk one morning was from Sri Lanka (and in Houston for university), and he quickly picked my accent. He was thrilled to have someone he could talk to about cricket!
Title: Re: Divided by a common language...
Post by: Obviousman on June 11, 2020, 09:29:10 PM
But one situation where my accent was apparently a problem was at The Amazing Meeting, attending which was one of the reasons I was in the USA. At the end of a talk I wanted to ask a question of one of the panel of speakers (an American). I was handed a microphone and spoke my question, and I thought I spoke clearly. But despite the speaker asking me to repeat myself a couple of times he simply couldn't understand me. It took an Australian on the panel of speakers to understand me and repeat my question to the American.

Don't ask me why this worked but I found if i put on a 'fake' US accent then people understood me! Go figure....
Title: Re: Divided by a common language...
Post by: Peter B on June 11, 2020, 09:53:27 PM
As it turned out a "schooner and a rind o' peel" was a "beer and a round of pool."

Go figure!

'Rind' with a long 'i' (rhyming with 'find') or a short 'i' (rhyming with 'cinder')?

The former certainly isn't an Australian pronunciation, but more associated in my mind with some of the more constipated versions of Received Pronunication (where 'a thousand pounds' sounds more like 'a thysand pynds').

The latter I could just about believe is an example of a pretty broad Australian accent, but one which may have started out as being a little exaggerated for effect - the way people from Noo Yoik supposedly say 'moider' instead of 'murder'.
Title: Re: Divided by a common language...
Post by: Jason Thompson on June 12, 2020, 04:14:36 AM
The former certainly isn't an Australian pronunciation, but more associated in my mind with some of the more constipated versions of Received Pronunication (where 'a thousand pounds' sounds more like 'a thysand pynds').

Did you ever see The Two Ronnies doing exactly this as an occasional recurring gag in their shows? Two gentlemen sitting in a club talking about things that naturally included a lot of 'ow' sounds rendered as 'eye' sounds for comic effect.
"Tiling dine" after a dip in the sea, for example. Or a buch of cockney "lay-a-bites".

"And I a-nine-ced lidely that I'd give them something to shite abite!"

"And did you?"

"I'm afraid I did, my trisers fell dine..."
Title: Re: Divided by a common language...
Post by: Britmax on June 12, 2020, 09:04:03 AM
Odd, in my experience the reverse error is more frequent.  Australian mistaken for English.
When I travelled around America just over five years ago now I was always being asked whether I was Australian. Actually passed through your home town but didn't see much of it, for reasons explained by a brief look at the schedule of the California Zephyr (!)
Title: Re: Divided by a common language...
Post by: JayUtah on June 12, 2020, 10:32:07 AM
When I travelled around America just over five years ago now I was always being asked whether I was Australian.

Well, there you go.  Apparently my experience is the minority.

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Actually passed through your home town but didn't see much of it, for reasons explained by a brief look at the schedule of the California Zephyr (!)

Ah, yes.  That means you stopped at the modern Salt Lake Central station, rather than either of our historic stations -- Union Pacific or Rio Grande.  My grandfather grew up in Hurricane, Utah (pronounced as two syllables, "Hurr-c'n" because it was originally settled by Mormon ex-Liverpudlians) and in his youth he was a fireman on the Denver and Rio Grande Railroad.  This was until they stopped using trains that needed someone to shovel coal into them.  The historic stations are closer to walking distance from the downtown attractions, obviously by intent.  I wouldn't advise walking around the Central stsation area of town during the lesser traveled hours.  Best to get on the local commuter trains straight away.

Fun fact:  The city block adjacent to where the new station now stands was once the site of Salt Lake City's entirely legal brothel.  Fed up with the shady houses of ill repute that dotted the western half of the city, the city fathers proposed that all such activity -- if it could not be abolished altogether -- be moved and confined to a place near "the tracks," that it be safely and prudently operated, and that the indulgence of the police and judiciary would be granted so long as good conduct in all other respects be observed.  They enticed Belle London, a madame notorious in Ogden, the city to the north of us, to move to Salt Lake and run the operation with the city's blessing.  Her dubious mission has been immortalized by "London Belle," a new pub on the portion of Main Street that was historically nicknamed Whiskey.  Yes, you could most certainly get a drink in Salt Lake City during its frontier days.  The early Mormons did not drink themselves, but had no religious qualms about providing excellent beers, wines, and spirits to others.
Title: Re: Divided by a common language...
Post by: gillianren on June 12, 2020, 11:40:44 AM
Sure--there was money to be had!
Title: Re: Divided by a common language...
Post by: Britmax on June 13, 2020, 05:37:18 AM
Sure--there was money to be had!
And the Mormon pragmatism: If anyone is going to make money here, it's going to be us!
Title: Re: Divided by a common language...
Post by: JayUtah on June 13, 2020, 12:54:49 PM
And the Mormon pragmatism: If anyone is going to make money here, it's going to be us!

That's another whole thread.  In modern times there is a gin made in Ogden (by non-Mormons) named after Brigham Young's son who was -- get this -- a drag queen.

I think the most egregious example I've witnessed of the separation among English speakers happened on a trip to the Caribbean islands.  A member of our party from Minnesota (essentially identical to a Candian accent) was talking to native Cayman Islander about the differences in their respective dialects.  It was hard to imagine they were speaking the same basic language.
Title: Re: Divided by a common language...
Post by: Britmax on June 13, 2020, 05:53:11 PM
When I travelled around America just over five years ago now I was always being asked whether I was Australian.

Well, there you go.  Apparently my experience is the minority.

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Actually passed through your home town but didn't see much of it, for reasons explained by a brief look at the schedule of the California Zephyr (!)

Ah, yes.  That means you stopped at the modern Salt Lake Central station, rather than either of our historic stations -- Union Pacific or Rio Grande.  My grandfather grew up in Hurricane, Utah (pronounced as two syllables, "Hurr-c'n" because it was originally settled by Mormon ex-Liverpudlians) and in his youth he was a fireman on the Denver and Rio Grande Railroad.  This was until they stopped using trains that needed someone to shovel coal into them.  The historic stations are closer to walking distance from the downtown attractions, obviously by intent.  I wouldn't advise walking around the Central stsation area of town during the lesser traveled hours.  Best to get on the local commuter trains straight away.

Fun fact:  The city block adjacent to where the new station now stands was once the site of Salt Lake City's entirely legal brothel.  Fed up with the shady houses of ill repute that dotted the western half of the city, the city fathers proposed that all such activity -- if it could not be abolished altogether -- be moved and confined to a place near "the tracks," that it be safely and prudently operated, and that the indulgence of the police and judiciary would be granted so long as good conduct in all other respects be observed.  They enticed Belle London, a madame notorious in Ogden, the city to the north of us, to move to Salt Lake and run the operation with the city's blessing.  Her dubious mission has been immortalized by "London Belle," a new pub on the portion of Main Street that was historically nicknamed Whiskey.  Yes, you could most certainly get a drink in Salt Lake City during its frontier days.  The early Mormons did not drink themselves, but had no religious qualms about providing excellent beers, wines, and spirits to others.

Thanks for that. All interesting stuff. I turned in to my roomette approaching Provo and having been on the train since Chicago slept like a log until we approached Winnemucca. Incidentally, on that train in the dining car (or possibly the observation car) I met the first real person I've encountered who believed in the hollow Earth theory. I couldn't think of anything to say.
Title: Re: Divided by a common language...
Post by: JayUtah on June 13, 2020, 09:07:30 PM
Sleeping through Provo is the best decision you could have made.  But as you go from the Salt Lake Valley to Utah Valley, just before the constriction between the two, and you know where to look up on the hillside to your left, you can see our assembly facility just below the motorway.
Title: Re: Divided by a common language...
Post by: Peter B on June 13, 2020, 09:56:12 PM
I think the most egregious example I've witnessed of the separation among English speakers happened on a trip to the Caribbean islands.  A member of our party from Minnesota (essentially identical to a Candian accent) was talking to native Cayman Islander about the differences in their respective dialects.  It was hard to imagine they were speaking the same basic language.

Oh, I dunno.

I have a friend through hobby interests who's from Aberdeen and now resident in Australia. I don't know whether he plays up his accent for my benefit or if he inflicts it on everyone, but I'm doing well if I can understand one word in four. It takes a lot of careful listening, and the fact that we're usually talking about hobby-related stuff, to work out what he's just said.

Likewise, two of my work colleagues are from overseas - India and Thailand - and for both of them English is their second language. On top of that, both of them talk quietly. When I first started working with them careful listening was necessary.
Title: Re: Divided by a common language...
Post by: Obviousman on June 14, 2020, 07:01:49 PM
It reminds me of back in the days when I was flying and first joined 817 SQN at HMAS Albatross. One of the air traffic controllers had the thickest - but still understandable - Scottish accent I had ever heard on the airwaves.

Shortly after joining the squadron and hearing this guy, I went to look him up in the Wardroom. I spoke to some people and they said 'That's him over there' and pointed to someone - a slight, young, coloured man! I introduced myself and he was indeed the air trafficer. He was known locally as 'The Black Scotsman' and relished the moniker.

Just shows how an accent can bias our preconceived notions.
Title: Re: Divided by a common language...
Post by: Peter B on June 14, 2020, 07:16:02 PM
Now that reminds me of a guy who worked in a team near me many years ago. Had about the most impenetrable Scottish accent you could imagine. Then someone mentioned they'd spoken to his father, saying his accent was much softer and more Australian. Apparently most of Dougie's accent was just for show.
Title: Re: Divided by a common language...
Post by: molesworth on June 18, 2020, 04:02:17 PM
Now that reminds me of a guy who worked in a team near me many years ago. Had about the most impenetrable Scottish accent you could imagine. Then someone mentioned they'd spoken to his father, saying his accent was much softer and more Australian. Apparently most of Dougie's accent was just for show.
Oh, there are Scottish accents, and then there are Scottish accents  ;D

Above and beyond the standard Glaswegian or West Highland strains that are well known around the world, if you head far up to the North-East you encounter the mysteries of "Doric" and "Mearns", which even other Scots often have trouble with.

(I, of course, have almost no accent...  ;) )
Title: Re: Divided by a common language...
Post by: jfb on June 19, 2020, 12:43:46 PM
Oh, that's right.  I looked that up once and forgot it.  I have a hard time distinguishing a Yorkshire accent from a Lancashire accent.

I lived in Yorkshire for a few years and I could definitely tell the difference between them, but now I've been back down south for a while they seem to have merged together again. Would a Bostonian be able to differentiate a Texan from a Tennessean?

Yes, just be aware that there is a range of Texas accents.  Deep East Redneck Texas has the more rounded accent you'll hear through the Deep South, while Central and West Texas are more like how Jay describes.

Dallas is its own animal, sitting somewhere in between. 

If you still have trouble, you may have to listen for idioms or regionalisms.  Ask if they drank Big Red as a kid, if they know what you're talking about then they're Texan. 
Title: Re: Divided by a common language...
Post by: Peter B on June 19, 2020, 09:26:26 PM
Some regionalisms can be interesting...

Back in the 1960s and 1970s the Holden car company (owned by General Motors) produced a muscle car called the Monaro. It was named for the region to the south of Canberra. Locals pronounce the region's name m*-NAIR-ro, while people around Australia call the car a m*-NAH-ro.

Likewise, a little way north-east of Canberra is a village called Tarago. This is also the name given to a range of Toyota vans sold in Australia. The village's name is pronounced TA-r*-go (almost as if you were saying 'tarry-go'), while the van is known to Australians as the t*-RAH-go.

Then there's the curious case of the shopping centre (and the sports ground) in Canberra known as Manuka. Kiwis will recognise the name but not the local pronunciation of MAH-n*-k*. Manuka as a tree or honey is pronounced m*-NOO-k*. Funnily enough, though, I understand the Maori pronunciation of the word is closer to the Canberra pronunciation. Go figure.
Title: Re: Divided by a common language...
Post by: gillianren on June 20, 2020, 12:55:45 PM
Ask if they drank Big Red as a kid, if they know what you're talking about then they're Texan. 

Or had a store with a good novelty soda selection.  Cactus Cooler is a bigger regional identifier for Californians; I've never seen it in a novelty soda section in Washington State.
Title: Re: Divided by a common language...
Post by: JayUtah on June 21, 2020, 11:03:16 AM
Yes, just be aware that there is a range of Texas accents.  Deep East Redneck Texas has the more rounded accent you'll hear through the Deep South, while Central and West Texas are more like how Jay describes.

Dallas is its own animal, sitting somewhere in between. 

If you still have trouble, you may have to listen for idioms or regionalisms.  Ask if they drank Big Red as a kid, if they know what you're talking about then they're Texan.

Indeed, it's hard for foreigners to appreciate just how very large (and diverse) Texas is.  Their tourism slogan used to be, "Texas:  It's like a whole other country."  Which is a dead giveaway that someone else wrote it, because many in Texas would say "nuther."  It's really the only state that's considered both a Southern state and a Western state.
Title: Re: Divided by a common language...
Post by: apollo16uvc on June 21, 2020, 12:37:32 PM
Title: Re: Divided by a common language...
Post by: jfb on June 22, 2020, 03:18:38 PM
Yes, just be aware that there is a range of Texas accents.  Deep East Redneck Texas has the more rounded accent you'll hear through the Deep South, while Central and West Texas are more like how Jay describes.

Dallas is its own animal, sitting somewhere in between. 

If you still have trouble, you may have to listen for idioms or regionalisms.  Ask if they drank Big Red as a kid, if they know what you're talking about then they're Texan.

Indeed, it's hard for foreigners to appreciate just how very large (and diverse) Texas is.  Their tourism slogan used to be, "Texas:  It's like a whole other country."  Which is a dead giveaway that someone else wrote it, because many in Texas would say "nuther."  It's really the only state that's considered both a Southern state and a Western state.

Not just foreigners.  I've met people from the Northeast who honestly thought you could drive from Dallas to South Padre, splash around in the ocean for a few hours, and drive back in time for dinner.  It's similar to the reaction I had when I first saw a map of Vermont and thought "wow, their counties are HUGE" before looking at the scale bar. 

One year we took a road trip to Yellowstone.  Two-thirds of the first day (Austin to Denver) was spent getting out of Texas, which brings us to our unofficial state anthem:

The Sun has ris
The Sun has set
And here I is
In Texas yet


On one end of the state you have the desert, at the other end you have swamps or massive pine forests, in the middle you have the Hill Country, on the caprock you have landscape best described as "80% sky", and then you have the coast, and all the different kinds of communities such landscape inspires. 
Title: Re: Divided by a common language...
Post by: Peter B on June 22, 2020, 10:07:51 PM
Yes, just be aware that there is a range of Texas accents.  Deep East Redneck Texas has the more rounded accent you'll hear through the Deep South, while Central and West Texas are more like how Jay describes.

Dallas is its own animal, sitting somewhere in between. 

If you still have trouble, you may have to listen for idioms or regionalisms.  Ask if they drank Big Red as a kid, if they know what you're talking about then they're Texan.

Indeed, it's hard for foreigners to appreciate just how very large (and diverse) Texas is.  Their tourism slogan used to be, "Texas:  It's like a whole other country."  Which is a dead giveaway that someone else wrote it, because many in Texas would say "nuther."  It's really the only state that's considered both a Southern state and a Western state.

Not just foreigners.  I've met people from the Northeast who honestly thought you could drive from Dallas to South Padre, splash around in the ocean for a few hours, and drive back in time for dinner.  It's similar to the reaction I had when I first saw a map of Vermont and thought "wow, their counties are HUGE" before looking at the scale bar. 

One year we took a road trip to Yellowstone.  Two-thirds of the first day (Austin to Denver) was spent getting out of Texas, which brings us to our unofficial state anthem:

The Sun has ris
The Sun has set
And here I is
In Texas yet


On one end of the state you have the desert, at the other end you have swamps or massive pine forests, in the middle you have the Hill Country, on the caprock you have landscape best described as "80% sky", and then you have the coast, and all the different kinds of communities such landscape inspires.

You think Texas is big? I understand a lot of Americans don't realise Australia is nearly as big as the 48 states. Most Aussies have a story about American tourists underestimating the size of Australia, like the people staying in Sydney who mused out loud that they were planning to drive to Uluru (Ayers Rock) as a day trip.

Which I can tie together neatly with this little story, which I'm sure must be true...

Quote
A cattle station owner was having a drink at a pub in the Northern Territory. A Yank walked in and started bragging.

"I'm from Texas," he said, "where everything's big. Why, my spread is so big it takes me a week to ride around it on my horse."

The station owner nodded, "Yeah, I had a horse that slow once, but I shot it."
Title: Re: Divided by a common language...
Post by: molesworth on June 23, 2020, 05:55:08 AM
Quote
A cattle station owner was having a drink at a pub in the Northern Territory. A Yank walked in and started bragging.

"I'm from Texas," he said, "where everything's big. Why, my spread is so big it takes me a week to ride around it on my horse."

The station owner nodded, "Yeah, I had a horse that slow once, but I shot it."
Ah, the old ones are the best...  ;D

Reminds me of visiting Wyoming and Yellowstone for the eclipse in 2017.  Chatting to the girl working in a small diner, and commenting about how open and empty it was, she had a wonderful drawling response of "Yup! A whole lotta nuthin'."  We certainly encountered quite a few interesting accents on that trip.
Title: Re: Divided by a common language...
Post by: gillianren on June 23, 2020, 11:10:06 AM
People don't tend to realize the size of California.  It's the third-largest state in the US; it's almost 800 miles from Mexico to Oregon.  Another "and then you spend the whole day just getting out of one state" state, if you're driving north.  It's why the idea of a theme park in Anaheim that's California-themed never bothered me; for one thing, it's got sections about parts of California the tourists going to Disneyland aren't going to get to.
Title: Re: Divided by a common language...
Post by: smartcooky on June 23, 2020, 04:25:36 PM
I think the most egregious example I've witnessed of the separation among English speakers happened on a trip to the Caribbean islands.  A member of our party from Minnesota (essentially identical to a Candian accent) was talking to native Cayman Islander about the differences in their respective dialects.  It was hard to imagine they were speaking the same basic language.

This sort of thing doesn't just happen in the English language.

Many years ago, when I was a young boy (we were still living in England then) my family was on holiday in St. Malo in Brittany, France. We were holidaying with family friends from Wales (Tenby in Pembrokeshire). The friends spoke English but they were also Welsh-speaking.

One day, we were all sitting in one of those beautiful street cafes having a meal, and Tom, my Dad's friend, kept turning around to look at a group behind him. He thought they were speaking Welsh because he could understand what they were saying. He approached them and asked if they were Welsh, but they were actually locals, speaking the local dialect, Breton. Tom and Mary were easily able to have a conversation with them.
Title: Re: Divided by a common language...
Post by: JayUtah on July 07, 2020, 01:28:01 AM
Okay, now you have to tell me where in The Stand I can find you--for after this is over, because there is no way I'm going to watch it right now.

You asked for it.  A friend of mine found this link.



The scene starts at 3:48:57.  The location is the chapel attached to the local Catholic high school.  It's actually just a block or two away from a more famous high school:  East High.  East is the filming location for the infamous High School Musical series.  And the actual setting for High School Musical:  The Musical:  The Series.  That jumped the shark so effectively I think it's now in orbit.  But to be more relevant, Apollo astronaut Jim Irwin graduated from East High.  And yes, the tall guy in the scene is Stephen King himself.  The close-ups are props.  Most of the rest of us are just laying there very still.  The best part is that some of the other extras were actual students from the school, which has a very strong drama program.  They were tickled to "defile" their chapel.

And since I had to skim the whole six hours to find it, here are other points of interest.

00:11:26 Research Park, adjacent to the University of Utah campus.  Rockwell Collins has a building there.

00:14:33 The Newhouse Building, downtown Salt Lake.  It and the adjacent Boston Building were Utah's first skyscrapers.  My downtown data center is a five-minute walk from there.

00:18:24 The Empress Theater.  I was the lead scenic designer at this theater for about three years.  One of the shows I designed there was High School Musical.  And I actually got cast-off furnishings (hall lockers, etc.) from East High to dress the set.  Another show I designed there was Footloose, which was also shot in Utah.  At 00:18:30 you can see glimpses of the building next door, which is our scenery and property shop.  The cornice on the roof was destroyed by the earthquake earlier this year.  The sign at 00:18:37 is just across the street.  I reproduced it as part of the Footloose set.

01:37:26.  This is supposed to be Central Park in NYC.  It's actually a park in Salt Lake called Memory Grove.  It has a number of follies commemorating war dead.  Its at the mouth of City Creek Canyon, one of the Seven Canyons that line the east side of our valley.

01:44:38 North of Salt Lake City there are a number of petroleum refineries.  This whole sequence was shot at one of their tank farms.

02:20:10 This is supposed to be Oklahoma.  As the camera tilts up, however, we see a very famous Union Station in Ogden, Utah.

02:27:41 Not Vermont, but high-end apartments near Temple Square in SLC.

02:34:03 Vincent Drug is a cherished Utah pharmacy chain.  Another franchise location can be seen in The Sandlot, also filmed here.

03:15:45 The title says "Eastern Colorado," but the mountain in the background is Mt Timpanogos, one of the most recognizable peaks in Utah.

03:28:36 Salt Lake's famous Union Pacific station.  It has been superseded now by Salt Lake Central, a modern multi-modal station.  This station has now been incorporated into a downtown outdoor mall.  The shots of the interior that follow really are the station, really preserved in all its former glory.  Except that it's full of characteristic Utah scenes.  (It's supposed to be Boulder, Colorado's train station.)  The crane shot at 03:24:07 cuts to a fairly obvious shot of Brigham Young and the Mormon pioneers entering the valley.

Most of the residences portrayed as Boulder, Colorado are actually in Salt Lake -- many of them in my neighborhood.  03:48:22 is a good example.  These two houses are characteristic of a prolific architect who designed dozens of houses in my neighborhood.  Note the main roofline that slopes front to back, interrupted by a dormer.  A prime example is at 03:56:17.  Note the red-rock foundations.

04:03:17 This nondescript road is noteworthy only because if you go down the slope off the left side, you're in the Memory Grove park.  If the camera were to pan only slightly more to the left, you'd see the Utah State Capitol in all its glory.  This is a popular hiking and biking trail.

04:13:42 More of Memory Grove.  You can see one of the follies in the background.

04:27:10 The road up Little Cottonwood Canyon, one of the Seven Canyons.  This is somewhat accurately reported on the title as being in Utah.  It's a fun road to drive.  At high speed.  In a fast car.

Well, that about wraps it up.
Title: Re: Divided by a common language...
Post by: gillianren on July 07, 2020, 11:03:19 AM
Oh, believe me, I always recognize King.
Title: Re: Divided by a common language...
Post by: Peter B on July 10, 2020, 11:07:27 AM
Hey, a little question for those of the English persuasion, about the meaning of a word.

I was watching "The Dambusters" on DVD with my sons today.

As the attacking aircraft assemble at the first dam, the mission commander, Guy Gibson, calls out to the crews, "Hello all Cooler aircraft, I'm going to attack."

What was the meaning of "Cooler"? Was it a code word for the mission? RAF slang (if so, what for)? More general English slang (again, if so, what for)?

Thank you.
Title: Re: Divided by a common language...
Post by: Bryanpoprobson on July 10, 2020, 06:09:43 PM
I read the book of the dam busters raid when I was 14, I am now 6@, IIRC it was the code name for the aircraft cooler 1, cooler 2 etc. It was not the overall code name for the mission, that was Operation 'Chastise'.
Title: Re: Divided by a common language...
Post by: Obviousman on July 11, 2020, 07:54:47 PM
Correct. Cooler 1 was the first aircraft to strike, Cooler 2 the second, etc.