Author Topic: The Trump Presidency  (Read 419338 times)

Offline ineluki

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1740 on: December 04, 2020, 07:48:24 AM »
I expect a Twitter tantrum any time soon... :-)

More important, will Trump fire Barr and promote Giuliani?

Offline Obviousman

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1741 on: December 07, 2020, 05:42:49 PM »
It is starting...

Quote
The Chief Election Officer and Secretary of State for Michigan, Jocelyn Benson, has thanked the state's attorney general and local law enforcement for assisting after armed protesters gathered outside her family home on the weekend.

Michigan officials last month certified the state’s election results showing president-elect Joe Biden had won the state, but the group who rallied outside Benson's home held up placards that read "stop the steal" and chanted "bogus" electoral fraud claims.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-12-08/us-election-updates-trump-biden-rudy-giuliani-in-hospital-covid/12957436

I'm going to remain quite negative about this.

Offline JayUtah

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1742 on: December 08, 2020, 11:27:52 AM »
Yes, disapproval is warranted.  This isn't by any means the first time a protest has occurred outside the residence of a public official.  Over the summer some BLM protesters had a parade whose route went past the home of the state attorney general.  And we had some anti-maskers protest in front of a city official's house.

Why is it always the people who deny reality who stoop to such callous behavior?
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline Allan F

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1743 on: December 08, 2020, 04:35:37 PM »
Most likely, it's not about the cause, but just the people who just want to be in the way of things.
Well, it is like this: The truth doesn't need insults. Insults are the refuge of a darkened mind, a mind that refuses to open and see. Foul language can't outcompete knowledge. And knowledge is the result of education. Education is the result of the wish to know more, not less.

Offline JayUtah

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1744 on: December 08, 2020, 06:43:20 PM »
I agree.  They just want to "stick it" to someone and make their lives miserable on all counts, just because they have a grievance.

Rereading my previous post, it sounds like I was claiming BLM protesters were among those denying reality.  That was not what I meant.  The "protest" in question was a form of moving dance party that has become popular in our region.  From what I gather, it's an attempt to bring positivity into mainstream protest culture.  It was pointedly planned to pass the attorney general's house, for obvious reasons.  The protests in which a person's residence is specifically targeted and made the subject of negative demonstrations seem to be orchestrated mostly by conspiracy-theory types.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline Allan F

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1745 on: December 08, 2020, 10:30:32 PM »
Most people don't matter in the large picture, and this is a way to feel that they DO matter.
Well, it is like this: The truth doesn't need insults. Insults are the refuge of a darkened mind, a mind that refuses to open and see. Foul language can't outcompete knowledge. And knowledge is the result of education. Education is the result of the wish to know more, not less.

Online Peter B

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1746 on: December 09, 2020, 03:26:49 AM »
On a slightly different note, does anyone have any thoughts on the case Texas has brought before the Supreme Court?
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Offline molesworth

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1747 on: December 09, 2020, 03:31:20 AM »
On a slightly different note, does anyone have any thoughts on the case Texas has brought before the Supreme Court?
Is that the one the Supreme Court summarily dismissed in one scathing line?  ;D
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Offline raven

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1748 on: December 09, 2020, 03:41:52 AM »
On one hand, they should yeet this with extreme prejudice, but, the way the US Supreme Court is stacked right now, I wouldn't 100% discount the possibility of it going the other way.  If it goes through, it would be an absolute wrecking ball to American democracy. The fact Texas is even attempting it is a couple good swings.
I hope you are right, molesworth, I  hope you are right.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2020, 03:44:05 AM by raven »

Online Peter B

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1749 on: December 09, 2020, 05:00:36 AM »
On a slightly different note, does anyone have any thoughts on the case Texas has brought before the Supreme Court?
Is that the one the Supreme Court summarily dismissed in one scathing line?  ;D

No.

This one: https://www.supremecourt.gov/search.aspx?filename=/docket/docketfiles/html/public/22o155.html

I mean, as far as I can tell, it appears to rehash the same arguments used in cases dismissed at the state level.

And the statistical analysis on page 22 and following, from the Motion to Expedite Main Document, looks pretty skewy to me.

But then again, it's years since I studied or seriously used statistics... (ETA, Sagan had his billions, but Cicchetti has quadrillions)

So I'd appreciate some confirmation that if you build your legal arguments in the same way, they'll get knocked down in the same way.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2020, 05:02:59 AM by Peter B »
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Offline JayUtah

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1750 on: December 09, 2020, 10:41:27 AM »
The one-line dismissal is the rule in cases where certiorari is denied.  The Supreme Court's daily orders contain page after page of such single-line dismissals, since so many cases are referred to them.

The Texas case is different because here the parties are actual States.  The Attorney General of Texas is filing the suit in his official capacity on behalf of the State.  This is one of the few circumstances in which the U.S. Supreme Court has original jurisdiction:  when one State sues another.

The Bill of Complaint is uncommonly long:  more than 150 pages.  When I skimmed it last night, I didn't see anything that hasn't already been brought in lower courts and rejected -- in some cases with scathing rebukes.

It attempts to invoke Bush v. Gore to create a "federal question," the magic circumstance that allows a U.S. court to take up what is essentially a state issue.  The Third Circuit rejected this, but the Supreme Court could always disagree.  It attempts to invoke the elements of the Constitution -- the Electors Clause, the Due Process Clause, and the Equal Protection Clause -- in its causes of action.  This has already been taken up by the circuit courts and argued with fairly unassailable logic.  None of them applies in the way the plaintiff here desires.  And it attempts to relitigate all the questions regarding the constitutionality of state laws as they apply to the respective state constitutions, questions that the state high courts have already ruled upon.  (Absent a federal question, those rulings are unreviewable in the Supreme Court.)

The statistical argument failed numerous times already, mostly because the testimony supporting it has never been taken by deposition, only by affidavit.  Affidavits are considered hearsay for purposes of evidence in court.  Testimony by deposition would allow voir dire into the methods used, which would almost certainly fail the Daubert test for admissibility as opinion testimony.

Where it's going to fail, however, is -- as usual -- in the deficiency of its pleading.  The Bill is dozens of pages of the same arguments that have failed to convince even the most sympathetic of lower courts.  I'm sure that's where the attorney general wishes attention most to be paid.  But the real problems here are technicalities such as laches.

The doctrine of laches says that you must begin to pursue a remedy in court upon knowledge of first injury.  You may not delay, or as the legal jargon goes:  "sleep on your rights."  This is especially true when delay would prejudice any court action against the defendant.  For example, if I discovered that someone was infringing on my patent, I cannot wait a year or two until they have amassed a pot of revenue as the fruits of their infringement, and then swoop to claim it as ill-gotten gain.  I had the duty to stake my claim before the defendant committed further resources.

Here, when the claim is that a law is unconstitutional on its face, the laches clock begins ticking as soon as the laws hit the books.  "First injury" for facial unconstitutionality occurs when the law is enacted, as opposed to as-applied unconstitutionality, which requires a body of facts in some case to adjudicate.  If Texas believed the laws of other states that regulated their balloting violated their state constitutions, and that this would injure Texas' rights in the Electoral College, they had a duty to begin action when the laws were enacted, not just after it became apparent that they would lose.  Texas had a duty to bring action before the defendant States used those laws to conduct elections.  The defense of latches is especially strong when suit is filed after the States certified their electoral votes.  Eleventh-hour tactics after intentional delays almost always fail on the grounds that the other party is thereby prejudiced.

And the prayer for relief is the same nonsense that no court yet has yet agreed is even remotely allowable under Article III.  Texas wants all the electoral votes from the defendant states to be invalidated.  No court has yet recognized that the appropriate remedy for balloting irregularity affecting one party is the categorical, irrevocable disenfranchisement of huge numbers of other voters who arguably cast their ballots lawfully, in good faith.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline JayUtah

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1751 on: December 09, 2020, 03:06:06 PM »
Another obstacle to the Texas suit might be the Safe Harbor law, 3 U.S.C. § 5.  This law provides that if a State has laws or procedures governing the contest of an election to federal office, and if exercising those has led to a resolution of the election and a certification of the slate of electors by Dec. 8 (yesterday), then the slate shall be considered conclusive.  I believe the defendant States have all done so.  This does not mean that a State must resolve its electors by this day.  But it could serve as a statutory basis to bar Texas claim on states that have complied.

The subtext, of course, is that the Texas attorney general has been under indictment since 2015 for securities fraud and is being newly investigated by the FBI on suspicion of additional crimes.  It is suggested he may be doing this as a favor to Pres. Trump in hopes of obtaining a pardon.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline Glom

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1752 on: December 09, 2020, 04:48:18 PM »
What's this about other states joining in on this Texan action?

Offline JayUtah

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1753 on: December 09, 2020, 06:26:43 PM »
What's this about other states joining in on this Texan action?

I don't see anything relevant on the docket.  Missouri has submitted an amicus brief, and Arizona has petitioned for leave to submit one.  Those are the only motions involving entire states.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline JayUtah

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1754 on: December 09, 2020, 08:20:02 PM »
So the amicus brief filed in the docket under the State of Missouri has actually been signed onto by a dozen or so other Republican-ruled states, including Utah.  This is probably where the rumor has come from that several other States have "joined" the lawsuit.  In fact several other states have signed a brief giving arguments why the Supreme Court should take the case.  Predictably, the President -- whose tweet seems to be what has created the confusion -- doesn't know the difference between joinder and simply filing a brief in support.  No State besides Texas is a plaintiff.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams