Author Topic: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots  (Read 427664 times)

Offline Andromeda

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Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #1125 on: July 18, 2012, 02:52:10 PM »
By the way, prof, were you hoping we'd all have forgotten this, posted by Lunar Orbit in post #1073 on this thread?

Profmunkin, you have until the end of the day Friday (June 15, 2012) to provide us with the answers to our questions. Who fired the shots that hit President Kennedy and Governor Connally, and what was the location of the assassin (or assassins)? Explain to us why your scenario makes more sense than Lee Harvey Oswald being the lone gunman.

If you do not provide these answers in the time I have allotted you will be permanently banned. I believe I have been extremely generous in allowing you to make over 400 posts despite what you did to the Proboards forum, but it's time for you to prove you're not just a troll.

Your convenient disappearance on that day, followed by your reappearance a month later was presumably in the hope that none of us would remember that you are still being held to this requirement to present the answers to those questions.

You're not fooling anyone. Put up, shut up, or get banned. Up to you.

I agree with this.

Frankly I am ASTOUNDED at your gall showing up here after what you did to the old forum.  I am shaking my head in disbelief as I type.  You have some ?!#!$* nerve.
"The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'" - Isaac Asimov.

Offline Chew

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Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #1126 on: July 18, 2012, 03:21:12 PM »
Dang. I guess it's too late to make a JFK assassination Bingo card for prof. Maybe for the next CT to visit?
CE399 couldn't make all those wounds in JFK and Connally and emerge barely deformed yet the CT ignores the simple fact it must have at least caused all the wounds to Connally. (Too long to fit?)
"Pristine Bullet" should be the center square.
Uses Ed Hoffman as a Grassy Knoll gunman eyewitness.
Uses Jean Hill as a Grassy Knoll gunman eyewitness.
Mauser found in TSBD.
Claims CE399 was planted on stretcher.
Face sheet or Death Certificate used to place JFK's neck wound while ignoring the Autopsy Report.
"Back and to the left."
Eyewitnesses used to claim back of the head blown out.
Greer with a handgun in the driver's seat.
Claims backyard photos were faked.
Claims Z-film was faked.
References any Jack White "photoanalysis".

Offline Donnie B.

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Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #1127 on: July 18, 2012, 04:41:25 PM »
Pretty good, if a bit verbose.

I might go with "Magic Bullet" in the center square, since that covers more ground and (IMO) is the more common concept.  Of course, pristine-ness is part of the magic.

Offline Chew

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Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #1128 on: July 18, 2012, 05:03:26 PM »
Pretty good, if a bit verbose.

I might go with "Magic Bullet" in the center square, since that covers more ground and (IMO) is the more common concept.  Of course, pristine-ness is part of the magic.

Good point.

Offline Echnaton

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Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #1129 on: July 18, 2012, 08:06:03 PM »
But couldn't the magic bullet also cover a shot from the grassy knoll that somehow dispersed into thin air. 
The sun shone, having no alternative, on the nothing new. —Samuel Beckett

Offline Donnie B.

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Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #1130 on: July 18, 2012, 09:42:15 PM »
In JFK conspiracy circles, the "magic bullet" refers specifically to the second shot from the TSBD, which caused injuries to JFK's neck and Connolly's chest, wrist, and thigh with minimal damage to the bullet, and ended up on a gurney at Parkland Hospital.  To the conspiracists that seems flatly impossible, so they sneeringly say it could only have happened by magic.

I have never heard the term used in any other context, including the one you suggest.  I suppose, though, that if the official story did include a shot from the GK that seemingly vanished, it would probably have received the same sarcastic appellation.

Offline ka9q

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Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #1131 on: July 18, 2012, 11:32:40 PM »
In JFK conspiracy circles, the "magic bullet" refers specifically to the second shot from the TSBD, which caused injuries to JFK's neck and Connolly's chest, wrist, and thigh with minimal damage to the bullet, and ended up on a gurney at Parkland Hospital.  To the conspiracists that seems flatly impossible, so they sneeringly say it could only have happened by magic.
A classic example of an appeal to personal incredulity. People (even Americans) think they know much more about guns and bullets than they really do. Many don't even know that military rifles like Oswald's fire a different kind of bullet than those normally used in civilian hunting. Military rifles fire full metal jacketed bullets while hunters usually use soft or hollow-point lead bullets. I strongly suspect that most of the CTs who think CE399 couldn't have done what it did and come out "pristine" don't realize a) CE399 is actually severely flattened and b) it took a lot of force to do that to a jacketed bullet.

Had JFK been shot in the back with the more familiar plain lead hunting bullet, the bullet would probably have fragmented on impact with soft tissue and released most of its energy. If any fragments emerged at all, they probably would not have severely injured JBC in the way he was hurt. And Oswald wouldn't have needed a third shot.

On the other hand, Oswald's rifle and ammunition could fire a bullet through 4 feet of solid pine and come out almost undamaged.

As gruesome as the JFK head shot was, it could have been worse. The Discovery Channel program "Inside the Target Car" demonstrated what would have happened had he been shot in the head with a conventional soft point lead .30-30 bullet from the grassy knoll. The target was a simulated human head, complete with simulated brain matter, made by an Australian company that produces them for military tests. They behave just like the real thing when hit with a bullet. The head just exploded. Nothing was left above the neck. While Oswald's bullet certainly did enough damage, it certainly didn't do that.



Offline Mr Gorsky

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Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #1132 on: July 19, 2012, 06:33:40 AM »
Aaaarrrgh!

Note to self ... don't read this thread when eating next time.
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The Pessimist: The glass is half empty
The Engineer: The glass is twice as big as it needs to be

Offline twik

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Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #1133 on: July 19, 2012, 08:23:13 AM »
ka9q, that's an interesting point, and one that I think tells against the conspiracy theory in more than one way. We must assume that the presumed conspirators would know how bullets work. If getting rid of JFK was imperative, why didn't they use ammunition that would be more likely to be immediately lethal? Not to mention, something that a civilian would be more likely to have on hand? Lots of hunters in Texas. Whereas the Marine-trained Oswald would naturally gravitate towards using a military weapon.

Offline Noldi400

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Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #1134 on: July 19, 2012, 10:51:36 AM »
My own incredulity comes into play when I hear this described as a "professional" or "military-style" ambush. It just seems so haphazard that I can't help but believe LHO got lucky in making the kill.

Not particularly lethal ammunition, an awkward angle, and (having semi-missed his first shot) anything could have happened - JFK could easily have fallen or been pulled down out of sight before the third shot.

Knowing that JFK was going to be spending a lot of the next year out campaigning, surely there would have been better opportunities for competent, well-backed assassins  along the way.
"The sane understand that human beings are incapable of sustaining conspiracies on a grand scale, because some of our most defining qualities as a species are... a tendency to panic, and an inability to keep our mouths shut." - Dean Koontz

Offline ka9q

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Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #1135 on: July 19, 2012, 08:37:20 PM »
ka9q, that's an interesting point, and one that I think tells against the conspiracy theory in more than one way. We must assume that the presumed conspirators would know how bullets work. If getting rid of JFK was imperative, why didn't they use ammunition that would be more likely to be immediately lethal? Not to mention, something that a civilian would be more likely to have on hand? Lots of hunters in Texas. Whereas the Marine-trained Oswald would naturally gravitate towards using a military weapon.
The Discovery Channel program made that exact point. If there was a second gunman, we don't know what weapon he used because no second weapon, spent shells or bullets were ever found. But it's reasonable to assume that if it were a well-organized conspiracy they'd pick an effective one. So to test the conspiracy claims they hired an expert marksman and let him choose an appropriate weapon and ammunition: a .30 Winchester hunting rifle with soft-point ammunition and a good scope. Then he showed that several supposed shooting locations didn't even have a clear shot of the target at the time. When they did simulate a shot from behind the picket fence on the grassy knoll, the results were totally different from what actually happened. That's the test where nothing was left of the target. It was obviously a much more capable weapon than the Carcano -- not that the Carcano wasn't sufficient.

They also tried a shot from the same location using Oswald's type of rifle. Instead of obliterating the target, the FMJ bullet passed completely through and out the left side of JFK's head -- and right through Jackie. Since Jackie was alive 31 years after the assassination, and since we know there was no damage to the left side of JFK's head, we can reasonably rule out that possibility too.

An interesting bit of trivia from the JFK case is that not long before the assassination, Oswald saw some of his co-workers bring in and show off several new hunting rifles. (After all, this was Texas.) Now if a well-organized conspiracy wanted to frame someone in that building, wouldn't it make sense to use a rifle just like one of those openly shown by those other workers? Better yet, wouldn't they have stolen one of those specific rifles, used it and then left it in the building?

Probably the most common attribute of conspiracy theorists is a complete unwillingness to follow the logical implications of their pet theories. Any real scientist spends very little time theorizing and almost all of his time seeing where they lead, and if they lead to contradictions or make predictions known to be false, the theories have to be modified or discarded.

PS. Did anyone else who saw that show get nervous when the shooter pointed his rifle at the actors in the limousine? I know he removed the bolt as a safety precaution, but as a kid I was so heavily conditioned to never point a weapon at anyone under any circumstances that it still bothers me to see it done on TV or in the movies. (The Brandon Lee tragedy didn't help.) If I were that shooter, or one of the producers, I would have gone further and physically handed the bolt to one of the actors.

« Last Edit: July 19, 2012, 09:15:09 PM by ka9q »

Offline Chew

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Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #1136 on: July 19, 2012, 08:56:47 PM »
Right. The "Mauser" myth falls into that "didn't follow through to the conclusion". So you frame your guy with a Carcano, shoot the President with a Mauser, then leave the Mauser in the building knowing full well it will be found???

Offline ka9q

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Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #1137 on: July 19, 2012, 09:09:15 PM »
Right. The "Mauser" myth falls into that "didn't follow through to the conclusion". So you frame your guy with a Carcano, shoot the President with a Mauser, then leave the Mauser in the building knowing full well it will be found???
This is another common element of conspiracy thinking: the conspirators are at once so extraordinarily competent that they pulled off "the crime of the century" (that's what it always is) and got away with it for years or decades, yet also so incompetent as to make dozens of simple mistakes that left absolute proof of their culpability for the conspiracists to find.

I suppose that you could resolve that paradox if you think of yourself as so brilliant that you could find mistakes even by conspirators as powerful and capable as those who killed JFK or faked Apollo...
 

Offline Donnie B.

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Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #1138 on: July 20, 2012, 04:19:07 PM »
I just had a weird thought.

Has anybody ever suggested that the target of the assassination wasn't Kennedy, but rather Oswald?  Because, you know, if so it was quite effective, in a roundabout way.


*ducks*

Offline Echnaton

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Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #1139 on: July 20, 2012, 05:19:21 PM »
*ducks*

That's a real quacker of a theory.
The sun shone, having no alternative, on the nothing new. —Samuel Beckett