Author Topic: Rover Tracks and AS-47-6919  (Read 1319 times)

Offline BDL

  • Venus
  • **
  • Posts: 91
Rover Tracks and AS-47-6919
« on: December 18, 2020, 08:01:07 PM »
Hi, it's been a while since I've been here last. Recently some conspiracists on Twitter have used this site (http://www.geschichteinchronologie.com/atmosphaerenfahrt/mondfotos/mondauto04-apollo-16-ENGL-hall.html) as a reference in support of the conspiracy theory. Most of the latter portion of the page is just regarding shadows and is unconvincing, but I'm at a loss at explaining an apparently disappeared rover tracks or how some apparently don't align with the tires.

Additionally, a photo from Apollo 12 was also posited showing purportedly unexplainable reflections in the visor of the astronaut. I don't know how to attach photos right here in the text area so I'll just place it below in the attachment area. (The first file link doesn't work, sorry.)

The questions are:
 What are those 2 light beams in the reflection? Are they supposed to be the experiments right below him or are they supposed to be the other astronaut?
 If they're both the experiment directly below him then why isn't the astronaut in the visor reflection?
 If one of them is the astronaut then why doesn't one or more of the experiments show up in the visor?
 What is that loose white flap on the partly obscuring the upper-right part of the visor?
 What is that brown spot on the ground next to the astronaut (holding the camera)?
 What is that smaller brown spot next to the shadow of the other astronaut being photographed?
 Why isn't the astronaut's (who is the photographer) shadow visible in the visor?
 There's 2 balls of light in the visor, one big light (presumably the moon) but there's on in the middle of the visor that's somewhat smaller; what is it?

Thank you!
 
« Last Edit: December 18, 2020, 09:47:55 PM by BDL »
“One small step for [a] man, one giant leap for mankind.” - Neil Armstrong, 1969

Offline Halcyon Dayz, FCD

  • Earth
  • ***
  • Posts: 128
  • Contrarian's Contrarian
Re: Rover Tracks and AS-47-6919
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2020, 10:53:20 PM »
Let's start by looking at a better version:

AS12-47-6919

« Last Edit: December 18, 2020, 10:54:54 PM by Halcyon Dayz, FCD »
Hatred is a cancer upon the world.
It rots the mind and blackens the heart.

Offline BDL

  • Venus
  • **
  • Posts: 91
Re: Rover Tracks and AS-47-6919
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2020, 11:18:19 PM »
(By the way, in the last question I meant "presumably the sun")
“One small step for [a] man, one giant leap for mankind.” - Neil Armstrong, 1969

Offline gwiz

  • Mars
  • ***
  • Posts: 335
Re: Rover Tracks and AS-47-6919
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2020, 08:32:51 AM »
Here's my interpretation.

Main items reflected in the visor are the astronauts left arm and the camera attached to his chest.  Spherical reflectors exaggerate size of items close to them compared with distant items.

White thing upper right is a sunshade, slides up and down to shade view to side as required.

Brown spots are probably lit by reflections from gold foil into shadowed areas.

Astronaut and his shadow don't show up well in visor reflection because they are small and in much the same direction as the sun.  Sun reflection has flared to be much bigger than the actual sun disc.

Second bright spot might be sun glint on the upper part of the LM.
Multiple exclamation marks are a sure sign of a diseased mind - Terry Pratchett
...the ascent module ... took off like a rocket - Moon Man

Offline Jason Thompson

  • Uranus
  • ****
  • Posts: 1597
Re: Rover Tracks and AS-47-6919
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2020, 10:27:48 AM »
Hi, it's been a while since I've been here last. Recently some conspiracists on Twitter have used this site (http://www.geschichteinchronologie.com/atmosphaerenfahrt/mondfotos/mondauto04-apollo-16-ENGL-hall.html) as a reference in support of the conspiracy theory. Most of the latter portion of the page is just regarding shadows and is unconvincing, but I'm at a loss at explaining an apparently disappeared rover tracks or how some apparently don't align with the tires.

Things to keep in mind for the questions about rover tracks:

1: If the lighting angles are just right then the tracks will 'disappear' as the ridges will hide their own shadows (the same reason you don't see shadows on the lunar surface during a full Moon, even near the limb: the stadows are behind the things casting them).

2: Astronauts moving around the rover will scatter dust over the tracks and obscure them.

3: The rover was light enough in the lunar gravity that sometimes the astronauts would pick it up and reposition it, so tracks might not line up.

4: From a point of view of logic, and given all the possible reasons for 'anomalies', the rover was a fuctional wheeled vehicle, so even if it was faked why on earth would anyone do anything other than drive the thing around the set instead of, as would be required if their arguments have any merit, somehow lifting it onto a set with existing tracks and dropping it into position?

Quote
Additionally, a photo from Apollo 12 was also posited showing purportedly unexplainable reflections in the visor of the astronaut. I don't know how to attach photos right here in the text area so I'll just place it below in the attachment area. (The first file link doesn't work, sorry.)

The questions are:
 What are those 2 light beams in the reflection? Are they supposed to be the experiments right below him or are they supposed to be the other astronaut?

They are the astronaut's arm and the camera attached to his chest.
 
Quote
What is that loose white flap on the partly obscuring the upper-right part of the visor?

It's part of the sunshade apparatus in the helmet. There were a number of such parts that could be slid up and down depending on where the astronaut was working and where the sun was in his view.

Quote
What is that brown spot on the ground next to the astronaut (holding the camera)?
 What is that smaller brown spot next to the shadow of the other astronaut being photographed?

I believe the answer to that can be found in the shadows behind the ribbon cables. If you look at them you will see they are all brown, just like the cables. This is because the cables were not opaque as they first appear but the wires were embedded in a brown transparent plastic, so sunlight actually passes through the ribbon cables and casts coloured shadows, because the light is effetively passing through a lighting filter so only that colour hits the ground behind the cable.

Quote
Why isn't the astronaut's (who is the photographer) shadow visible in the visor?

Because his reflection would appear just where the white sunshade flap is.

Quote
There's 2 balls of light in the visor, one big light (presumably the moon) but there's on in the middle of the visor that's somewhat smaller; what is it?

The sun and presumable a reflection off the LM. But again, address the logic of the conspiracy theory: why would anyone trying to fake a lunar scene lit only by the sun have any additional light source?
"There's this idea that everyone's opinion is equally valid. My arse! Bloke who was a professor of dentistry for forty years does NOT have a debate with some eejit who removes his teeth with string and a door!"  - Dara O'Briain

Offline bknight

  • Neptune
  • ****
  • Posts: 3019
Re: Rover Tracks and AS-47-6919
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2020, 10:43:50 AM »
Hi, it's been a while since I've been here last. Recently some conspiracists on Twitter have used this site (http://www.geschichteinchronologie.com/atmosphaerenfahrt/mondfotos/mondauto04-apollo-16-ENGL-hall.html) as a reference in support of the conspiracy theory. Most of the latter portion of the page is just regarding shadows and is unconvincing, but I'm at a loss at explaining an apparently disappeared rover tracks or how some apparently don't align with the tires.

Additionally, a photo from Apollo 12 was also posited showing purportedly unexplainable reflections in the visor of the astronaut. I don't know how to attach photos right here in the text area so I'll just place it below in the attachment area. (The first file link doesn't work, sorry.)

The questions are:
 What are those 2 light beams in the reflection? Are they supposed to be the experiments right below him or are they supposed to be the other astronaut?
What two light beams are you referring?
Quote

 If they're both the experiment directly below him then why isn't the astronaut in the visor reflection?
 If one of them is the astronaut then why doesn't one or more of the experiments show up in the visor?
 What is that loose white flap on the partly obscuring the upper-right part of the visor?

See gwiz descriptions[/quote]

 What is that brown spot on the ground next to the astronaut (holding the camera)?
 What is that smaller brown spot next to the shadow of the other astronaut being photographed?
[/quote]
I do see is a different color grey, obviously a different  terrain than surrounding areas.
Quote

 Why isn't the astronaut's (who is the photographer) shadow visible in the visor?
Due to the helmet's convex shape it isn't visible.  ETA I accept Jason's description, much better than mine.
Quote

 There's 2 balls of light in the visor, one big light (presumably the moon) but there's on in the middle of the visor that's somewhat smaller; what is it?

Doubtful the larger is the Moon, but the Sun.  The smaller, and here I'm guessing probably the LM.
Quote

Thank you!

Firstly FB is not the place to look for realistic explanations of anything.  The information smack of White's misapplication of any image description or taken from Aulis, another great place to obtain totally incorrect information regarding Apollo.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2020, 10:48:22 AM by bknight »
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
Eugene Cernan

Offline JayUtah

  • Neptune
  • ****
  • Posts: 3753
    • Clavius
Re: Rover Tracks and AS-47-6919
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2020, 01:14:55 PM »
What is that brown spot on the ground next to the astronaut (holding the camera)?

This photo was taken from a position between the ALSEP central station and the passive seismometer, in the direction of where the other astronaut is preparing to deploy the magnetometer..  In other photographs we can see there is a rock sticking up between them.  The photographer has captured the shadow of the rock, but not the rock itself.  Also in the other ALSEP deployment photos we can see that a loop of flat Mylar-coated cable has fallen such that it reflects Kapton-colored (i.e., deep orange) light into the shadow.

The insulating/sheathing material for the flat ribbon cables is almost certainly Kapton.  It's used extensively in many industries, including electronics and aerospace, for its superior electrical insulation value and its resistance to high temperatures.  Its natural color is a yellow-orange in thin films, but tends to appear deep orange when many layers or a large thickness is used.

Here's one of my suppliers:  Kapton adhesive tape A variant of this with permanent adhesive is what was used to tape up the insulation blankets on the Lunar Module.

« Last Edit: December 19, 2020, 01:17:42 PM by JayUtah »
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline BDL

  • Venus
  • **
  • Posts: 91
Re: Rover Tracks and AS-47-6919
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2020, 02:54:11 PM »
Thank you for the answers everyone! I went to look at the photograph closer, is it possible that the brown spot next to the astronaut's shadow (the one being photographed) is caused by the transparent bag-looking thing? I don't know color theory or how light works with transparent objects so I could very well be wrong.
“One small step for [a] man, one giant leap for mankind.” - Neil Armstrong, 1969

Offline JayUtah

  • Neptune
  • ****
  • Posts: 3753
    • Clavius
Re: Rover Tracks and AS-47-6919
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2020, 04:42:28 PM »
Thank you for the answers everyone! I went to look at the photograph closer, is it possible that the brown spot next to the astronaut's shadow (the one being photographed) is caused by the transparent bag-looking thing? I don't know color theory or how light works with transparent objects so I could very well be wrong.

I'm glad you noticed that too.  I was also wondering.  AS12-46-6783 makes it pretty obvious that sunlight shining through the Teflon bag is what's casting the orange semi-shadow.  And yes, there's a spike in the Teflon FEP transmissivity curve in the 600 nm neighborhood, meaning it will preferentially transmit warmer colors.

Another thing to think about is the perennial debate over the color of the lunar surface and the color film development.  Some who have seen it close up say the surface sometimes takes on a warm, brownish hue.  There are are various reasons why this might happen, given the particular texture and composition of the surface.  And also, different films record color differently, and different development processes can affect the appearance of color.  Some of the orbital photography, especially the Earthrise photos, show the Moon as slightly warm in color.  Roll 37 from Apollo 11 and the 16-millimeter film also show this.  But all kinds of chemical and thermal effects can change colors on film too.

And, anomalously, there were places in the lunar highlands in the Taurus Littrow valley where the surface material actually was orange, but that's not in play in this photo.

The reason we want to think about actual surface color is to determine whether the degree of lighting or the exposure settings of the camera can change the apparent color of parts of the surface.  Even if we say that the transmission curve of some material is flat, we can wonder whether underexposed images of parts of the lunar surface will appear a different color.  If the exposure is set for fully sunlit surface, and it shows gray or white, the part of the surface that gets only partial light through some translucent material will be darker and may cause the camera film to respond differently at that light level.

But there's a way to test that hypothesis.  The penumbras of shadows -- of anything -- should exhibit the same effect if it  were just a matter of optics or photochemistry.  And if you amplify the saturation in the photos that show the effect allegedly from the bag, you see only a slight warmth, nothing close to the orange color.  So I'm sticking with the selective transmission of the material I'm pretty sure that bag was made out of.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline onebigmonkey

  • Saturn
  • ****
  • Posts: 1445
  • ALSJ Clown
    • Apollo Hoax Debunked
Re: Rover Tracks and AS-47-6919
« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2020, 03:02:36 PM »
The second bright spot in the visor is the LM.

This is a close up of the RAW scan from the march to the moon website

https://tothemoon.ser.asu.edu/gallery/Apollo/12/Hasselblad%20500EL%20Data%20Camera%2070%20mm#AS12-47-6919



I've brightened it up and reversed it so that the view matches this panorama taken by Conrad:

https://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a12/a12pan1165752.jpg

The photo in the OP was taken some distance to the left of the panorama location. A secondary glow below and to the right of the LM (as we look at it here) could be reflections from the leg, but could also be the S-band antenna.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2020, 03:20:54 PM by onebigmonkey »

Offline raven

  • Uranus
  • ****
  • Posts: 1619
Re: Rover Tracks and AS-47-6919
« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2020, 04:34:44 PM »
Well, the  visor wasn't the only layer. There was also the polycarbonate pressure helmet inside. It wasn't mirrored, but it WAS smooth plastic, which can also reflect light spots.