Author Topic: Starship!  (Read 10364 times)

Offline Zakalwe

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Re: Starship!
« Reply #60 on: December 20, 2020, 01:02:42 PM »
Say what you like about Musk, but the dude gets things done.

Some things. Others never. The Hyperloop is an engineering nightmare that will never fly commercially. He should have been honest about it before selling it.


Can you please show where Musk sold Hyperloop? Here's a hint....the concept is explicitly open-source. Heck, the concept was first proposed in 1904 by Robert Goddard. How come no hate for him?

You would think that on a science-based forum people would make an effort to do a modicum of research before forming biased opinions, wouldn't you?

And apparently launching payloads to orbit and landing the first stages for reuse afterward is all about what a smooth talker you are, having nothing to do with physics. ::)

Musk frequently discusses low-level technological details of his projects, demonstrating a depth of knowledge that company executives rarely show interest in acquiring, but some people seem desperate to reduce him to a smooth-talking money man...which is comical if you've actually seen him speak publicly.

I don't get that either. Musk is a TERRIBLE public speaker. He's hesitant, stumbles over words and appears to hate talking in public. He's the very last person on the planet that I'd describe as a smooth-talker.  As for "Physics is certainly not where he shines".....he knew enough to get a degree in the subject at University.

It's a symptom of today's world...people just regurgitate whatever old nonsense that they've seen that aligns with their internal biases rather than doing a second of research. It's typical of the hoax-nutcases that this place semi-regularly debates. I find it a touch upsetting that people on "our side" of the debate follow the same pathway.

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Offline smartcooky

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Re: Starship!
« Reply #61 on: December 20, 2020, 01:21:58 PM »
Say what you like about Musk, but the dude gets things done.

Some things. Others never. The Hyperloop is an engineering nightmare that will never fly commercially. He should have been honest about it before selling it.


Can you please show where Musk sold Hyperloop? Here's a hint....the concept is explicitly open-source. Heck, the concept was first proposed in 1904 by Robert Goddard. How come no hate for him?

You would think that on a science-based forum people would make an effort to do a modicum of research before forming biased opinions, wouldn't you?

And apparently launching payloads to orbit and landing the first stages for reuse afterward is all about what a smooth talker you are, having nothing to do with physics. ::)

Musk frequently discusses low-level technological details of his projects, demonstrating a depth of knowledge that company executives rarely show interest in acquiring, but some people seem desperate to reduce him to a smooth-talking money man...which is comical if you've actually seen him speak publicly.

I don't get that either. Musk is a TERRIBLE public speaker. He's hesitant, stumbles over words and appears to hate talking in public. He's the very last person on the planet that I'd describe as a smooth-talker.  As for "Physics is certainly not where he shines".....he knew enough to get a degree in the subject at University.

It's a symptom of today's world...people just regurgitate whatever old nonsense that they've seen that aligns with their internal biases rather than doing a second of research. It's typical of the hoax-nutcases that this place semi-regularly debates. I find it a touch upsetting that people on "our side" of the debate follow the same pathway.


Indeed. You only have to watch his interviews with people Like Tim Dodd, Kara Swisher, Walt Mossberg and Satellite 2020 conference chair Jeffrey Hill to realise this is not just a well-briefed spokesman - this is  a man who actually understands the engineering and physics concepts behind everything he does.
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Offline JayUtah

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Re: Starship!
« Reply #62 on: December 20, 2020, 02:02:40 PM »
Consider the launch yesterday of SpaceX's second NRO payload.  Whatever you think of Musk, even to be able to bid on these contracts requires not only demonstrated reliability of the vehicle, but certain aspects about the company that have to meet very high standards.  This was important for SpaceX.  It's also important for the United States, since we need to have more than one company and more than one vehicle that can deliver these nationally critical payloads.
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Offline smartcooky

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Re: Starship!
« Reply #63 on: December 20, 2020, 02:21:26 PM »
The Hyperloop is an engineering nightmare that will never fly commercially.

... because the very idea of passengers traveling at hundreds of miles per hour in a metal tube is insane, and it would never work.

... Oh! Hang on!>

He should have been honest about it before selling it.

Wait? What? He didn't sell it because he never owned it. Its difficult to sell something that is Open Source.

Here's where Hyperloop is at as of last month.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BeyEbwguRls
« Last Edit: December 20, 2020, 02:34:43 PM by smartcooky »
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Offline 12oh2alarm

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Re: Starship!
« Reply #64 on: December 20, 2020, 04:45:56 PM »
... because the very idea of passengers traveling at hundreds of miles per hour in a metal tube is insane, and it would never work.

... Oh! Hang on!>


Are you referring to airliners in the air? If so, please explain how that relates to pods in 500 miles long evacuated tubes.

Yes, the "hyperloop" idea is more than a 100 years old. And it's never been built for a reason: IT'S STUPID on so many levels. Commercial, security, safety to begin with.

As an answer to your video, here's an answer taking it apart.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrbstnzbhZA

And here's where Elon's stupidity and physics ineptitude is demonstrated. While the everyday astronaut makes a fool of himself as a fanboy at the same time. (I usually am fond of EA's clips, but BS must be called BS. That's how science works  :) We need to recalibrate our enthusiasm, when it goes overboard).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znv0TQsR5jk

I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is. I get 100 bucks a year while a, say, 500 km evacuated loop (with commercial passenger service) does not exist, and you get 100 a year from the year it does, until either of us meets our maker. Any takers? Happy to negotiate the specs.

I really wonder why in this particular forum, with a lot of smart cookies, Elon isn't seen more critical where he clearly is talking nonsense. I do realize his achievements, but this man is not infallible and has a knack for pulling wool over people's eyes. That needs to be called out.

Offline Zakalwe

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Re: Starship!
« Reply #65 on: December 20, 2020, 05:37:40 PM »
Again, where did Musk sell Hyperloop?
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Offline smartcooky

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Re: Starship!
« Reply #66 on: December 20, 2020, 10:52:09 PM »
... because the very idea of passengers traveling at hundreds of miles per hour in a metal tube is insane, and it would never work.

... Oh! Hang on!>


Are you referring to airliners in the air? If so, please explain how that relates to pods in 500 miles long evacuated tubes.

Yes, the "hyperloop" idea is more than a 100 years old. And it's never been built for a reason: IT'S STUPID on so many levels. Commercial, security, safety to begin with.

As an answer to your video, here's an answer taking it apart.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrbstnzbhZA

And here's where Elon's stupidity and physics ineptitude is demonstrated. While the everyday astronaut makes a fool of himself as a fanboy at the same time. (I usually am fond of EA's clips, but BS must be called BS. That's how science works  :) We need to recalibrate our enthusiasm, when it goes overboard).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znv0TQsR5jk

I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is. I get 100 bucks a year while a, say, 500 km evacuated loop (with commercial passenger service) does not exist, and you get 100 a year from the year it does, until either of us meets our maker. Any takers? Happy to negotiate the specs.

I really wonder why in this particular forum, with a lot of smart cookies, Elon isn't seen more critical where he clearly is talking nonsense. I do realize his achievements, but this man is not infallible and has a knack for pulling wool over people's eyes. That needs to be called out.

Videos by "thunderf00t".... all that needs saying really.

IIRC is one of the naysayers who declared landing boosters was impossible. When SpaceX succeeded, those videos suddenly disappeared.

I place no store in what this guy says.

And no, while I have a few vices - gambling is one I have spurned for over over 65 years

PS: You failed to address the comments about the alleged sale of hyperloop made by Zakalwe and I.

Care to try.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2020, 10:55:58 PM by smartcooky »
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Offline 12oh2alarm

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Re: Starship!
« Reply #67 on: December 21, 2020, 04:33:43 AM »
Again, where did Musk sell Hyperloop?

I was under the mistaken impression, Elon sold the test track to Branson. Mea maxima culpa.

Other than that, I stand by my criticism of Elon as 90 % snake oil salesman,  5 % bigmouth, 4 % deep pocket and 1 % realist.

Offline 12oh2alarm

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Re: Starship!
« Reply #68 on: December 21, 2020, 04:54:02 AM »
... because the very idea of passengers traveling at hundreds of miles per hour in a metal tube is insane, and it would never work.

... Oh! Hang on!>


Are you referring to airliners in the air? If so, please explain how that relates to pods in 500 miles long evacuated tubes.

Yes, the "hyperloop" idea is more than a 100 years old. And it's never been built for a reason: IT'S STUPID on so many levels. Commercial, security, safety to begin with.

As an answer to your video, here's an answer taking it apart.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrbstnzbhZA

And here's where Elon's stupidity and physics ineptitude is demonstrated. While the everyday astronaut makes a fool of himself as a fanboy at the same time. (I usually am fond of EA's clips, but BS must be called BS. That's how science works  :) We need to recalibrate our enthusiasm, when it goes overboard).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znv0TQsR5jk

I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is. I get 100 bucks a year while a, say, 500 km evacuated loop (with commercial passenger service) does not exist, and you get 100 a year from the year it does, until either of us meets our maker. Any takers? Happy to negotiate the specs.

I really wonder why in this particular forum, with a lot of smart cookies, Elon isn't seen more critical where he clearly is talking nonsense. I do realize his achievements, but this man is not infallible and has a knack for pulling wool over people's eyes. That needs to be called out.

Videos by "thunderf00t".... all that needs saying really.They sat in Virgi

IIRC is one of the naysayers who declared landing boosters was impossible. When SpaceX succeeded, those videos suddenly disappeared.

I place no store in what this guy says.

And no, while I have a few vices - gambling is one I have spurned for over over 65 years

PS: You failed to address the comments about the alleged sale of hyperloop made by Zakalwe and I.

Care to try.

See my answer to Zakalwe.

Smartcookie, I really like you but I am deeply disappointed by your non-answer. Really, "he's a naysayer, I place no store in what this guy says." is your argument? What if I called you an Elon fanboy? Jay would pick us both apart for fallacies, and rightfully so.

Thunderfoot has a grasp of both engineering and physics (I'm merely a physicist). He provides back-of-the-envelope calculations which he uses to support his points. That's more than the average fan boy does or can even understand (not directed at you, I like you, space era brother). He buys expensive equipment to demonstrate in experiments (empirically, WHAT A CONCEPT!) what it takes to use cold gas thrusters for car levitation. Musk should go with his tail between his legs. That was one of many moments he let the 90% snake oil salesman out. If you feel otherwise, please argue (preferably with maths and physics), why you believe, flying cars can and should be built with cold gas thrusters to move a little bit around.

Offline Zakalwe

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Re: Starship!
« Reply #69 on: December 21, 2020, 06:33:01 AM »
... because the very idea of passengers traveling at hundreds of miles per hour in a metal tube is insane, and it would never work.

... Oh! Hang on!>


Are you referring to airliners in the air? If so, please explain how that relates to pods in 500 miles long evacuated tubes.

Yes, the "hyperloop" idea is more than a 100 years old. And it's never been built for a reason: IT'S STUPID on so many levels. Commercial, security, safety to begin with.

As an answer to your video, here's an answer taking it apart.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrbstnzbhZA

And here's where Elon's stupidity and physics ineptitude is demonstrated. While the everyday astronaut makes a fool of himself as a fanboy at the same time. (I usually am fond of EA's clips, but BS must be called BS. That's how science works  :) We need to recalibrate our enthusiasm, when it goes overboard).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znv0TQsR5jk

I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is. I get 100 bucks a year while a, say, 500 km evacuated loop (with commercial passenger service) does not exist, and you get 100 a year from the year it does, until either of us meets our maker. Any takers? Happy to negotiate the specs.

I really wonder why in this particular forum, with a lot of smart cookies, Elon isn't seen more critical where he clearly is talking nonsense. I do realize his achievements, but this man is not infallible and has a knack for pulling wool over people's eyes. That needs to be called out.

I do love it when smart people do not realise they are being trolled by someone who is an expert at Twitter trolling. Thunderfoot is a smart guy but he's got many blindspots, electric cars being one. He's also a guy that loves the sound of his own voice and can never be accused of using ten words when 500 will do the same job. His rant is based on a Musk tweet where the word "maybe" is used. Forgive me, but I'm not going to listen to 35 minutes of Thunderfoot's nonsense.A smart guy needs to be a touch smarter here.

As for him being infallible? Tu Quoque

Again, where did Musk sell Hyperloop?

I was under the mistaken impression, Elon sold the test track to Branson. Mea maxima culpa.

Other than that, I stand by my criticism of Elon as 90 % snake oil salesman,  5 % bigmouth, 4 % deep pocket and 1 % realist.

Apology accepted. Branson's organisation is one of a number of firms who are experimenting with the Hyperloop concept. Will it work? Who knows? The concept of loading people into a pressurised aluminium cylinder at transporting then at 10,000 metres is also dangerous, difficult and would have been considered madness a little over 100 years ago, and yet here we are doing it.

90% snake oil salesman?
    The first privately funded, liquid-fueled rocket (Falcon 1) to reach orbit (28 September 2008)
    The first privately funded company to successfully launch (by Falcon 9), orbit and recover a spacecraft (Dragon) (9 December 2010)
    The first private company to send a spacecraft (Dragon) to the International Space Station (25 May 2012)
    The first private company to send a satellite into geosynchronous orbit (SES-8, 3 December 2013)
    The first private company to send a probe beyond Earth orbit (Deep Space Climate Observatory, 11 February 2015)
    The first landing of a first stage orbital capable rocket (Falcon 9, Flight 20) (22 December 2015 1:39 UTC)[60]
    The first water landing of a first stage orbital capable rocket (Falcon 9) (8 April 2016 20:53 UTC)
    The development of the most powerful operational rocket as of 2020 (Falcon Heavy, first flight 6 February 2018)
    The first private company to send humans into orbit (Crew Dragon Demo-2, 30 May 2020)

Not bad for a snakeoil salesman. And that's only the achievements of one of his companies. Again, you are letting your hatred of a man who you have never and will never meet blind you to what he has achieved. That's not a great look at all.


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Offline 12oh2alarm

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Re: Starship!
« Reply #70 on: December 21, 2020, 08:47:05 AM »

90% snake oil salesman?
    The first privately funded, liquid-fueled rocket (Falcon 1) to reach orbit (28 September 2008)
    The first privately funded company to successfully launch (by Falcon 9), orbit and recover a spacecraft (Dragon) (9 December 2010)
    The first private company to send a spacecraft (Dragon) to the International Space Station (25 May 2012)
    The first private company to send a satellite into geosynchronous orbit (SES-8, 3 December 2013)
    The first private company to send a probe beyond Earth orbit (Deep Space Climate Observatory, 11 February 2015)
    The first landing of a first stage orbital capable rocket (Falcon 9, Flight 20) (22 December 2015 1:39 UTC)[60]
    The first water landing of a first stage orbital capable rocket (Falcon 9) (8 April 2016 20:53 UTC)
    The development of the most powerful operational rocket as of 2020 (Falcon Heavy, first flight 6 February 2018)
    The first private company to send humans into orbit (Crew Dragon Demo-2, 30 May 2020)

Not bad for a snakeoil salesman. And that's only the achievements of one of his companies. Again, you are letting your hatred of a man who you have never and will never meet blind you to what he has achieved. That's not a great look at all.

I don't hate the man and I have given Musk credit in this forum for his achievements (but you do know he's not the first to successfully land rockets upright?). For the new type of rocketry, "He's da man". Electric cars, yay, power to him.

That doesn't mean all of his big dreams will come true. And talking cold gas thrusters for flying cars is, I repeat (how do I say this politely?) complete and utter excrement. If you disagree, please address energy requirements, delta-v achievable, weight, safety issues.
If the man is so intelligent and honest, why does he talk publicly about it?

Guys, being critical of claims is one of the hallmark of science and engineering (as is using numbers!). One of the best tests a new idea in science is to ask your peers to come up with any and all arguments they can to shoot it down. If the idea stands that test, it may be one to explore further. Some of Musks utterings don't pass this test at all as the video shows.

I hear you guys making all sorts of excuses why you don't want to engage in Thunderfoot's video contents instead of attacking the arguments he brings forward against cold gas thrusters for flying cars. Let me add another non-technical one: regulation. You think authorities would allow flying cars to contain 1000 psi pressure vessels? Hell no! That's acting like some of the moon landing deniers here we love to take apart: rejecting arguments because you can't be bothered or you don't like the person. Do you call that a great look? You can do better than that.

I'm as much an technology enthusiast as many on this forum. But I am aware there is a cemetry of dead technological ideas. Some still-born, some connected to life-support for a few years before they die. Hyperloop is in a vegetative coma, if you ask me  :D Apart from a few laughably down-scaled technology demonstrations sold as "full scale", it is my belief the hyperloop is asphyxiating already. And cold gas thruster for Teslas (maybe even flying cars as such) are already dead and smelling. The emperor has no clothes here! I would so love to see Wernher rip Elon apart on this.

Offline Zakalwe

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Re: Starship!
« Reply #71 on: December 21, 2020, 10:28:45 AM »

I don't hate the man and I have given Musk credit in this forum for his achievements (but you do know he's not the first to successfully land rockets upright?). For the new type of rocketry, "He's da man". Electric cars, yay, power to him.

You might not, but you're doing a pretty good impression of someone who does (see below).


I stand by my criticism of Elon as 90 % snake oil salesman,  5 % bigmouth, 4 % deep pocket and 1 % realist.


but you do know he's not the first to successfully land rockets upright?

Yes, thank you. However they were all low altitude test pieces  No-one to date has autonomously landed an orbital class booster other than SpaceX. And certainly no-one has developed that technology into a commercially viable proposition.
Probably the closest at the moment is Blue Origin, but the pinnacle of their achievements is just getting above the Karman line in a straight up-and-down. Doing it with an orbital class booster involves dealing with a magnitude or two more of energy. I'd estimate they they are at last 5 years, if not a decade, behind SpaceX



That doesn't mean all of his big dreams will come true.

No-one is claiming that they will.

And talking cold gas thrusters for flying cars is, I repeat (how do I say this politely?) complete and utter excrement. If you disagree, please address energy requirements, delta-v achievable, weight, safety issues.
If the man is so intelligent and honest, why does he talk publicly about it?

Like I said, its amusing to see smart people getting all het up when they are either being trolled or when they don't realise that people can shoot the breeze. At worst, you're cherry-picking like a conspiracy theorist and using a few words to try an discredit someone's achievements or character. A classic ad-hominem.


I hear you guys making all sorts of excuses why you don't want to engage in Thunderfoot's video contents instead of attacking the arguments he brings forward against cold gas thrusters for flying cars.

Thunderfoot got himself all puffed up about something someone said on Twitter? There's more important things to debate than that. AFAIK, the original cold-gas thruster piece was Musk's idea to accelerate the car from a standing start (after all, when you're building a two-seater hypercar that will do 0-60 in under two seconds, carries a 1,000 kWh battery and a top speed well in excess of 200MPH what else can you add to make it even more extreme). Personally I think that the idea of making it fly using cold-gas thrusters is nonsense, but it is exactly the sort of shooting-the-breeze nonsense that I would engage in if I was one of the richest men on the planet and had ideas busting out of my ass.
Like I said, you and Thunderfoot are reading way too much into idle chit-chat. It reminds me of hoax nuts who take what written on von Brauns gravestone and use that as evidence of a Moon landing conspiracy.

Hyperloop is in a vegetative coma, if you ask me  :D

I personally don't think that it will happen anytime soon. The basic science is sound, but I can't see it happening anytime soon (mind you, there were plenty of serious people in NASA laughing when SpaceX first talked about landing orbital class boosters). I have it in the same area as space elevators and skyhooks with the provisio that we can actually have the materials science to make smaller runs of Hyperloop. 



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Offline cjameshuff

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Re: Starship!
« Reply #72 on: December 21, 2020, 02:01:06 PM »
I don't hate the man

Suuure, you spend so much effort spreading baseless FUD about him for purely non-hateful reasons. Jealousy, envy? Or purely pragmatic financial gain, perhaps?

Snake oil makes a poor rocket propellant. Your characterization of Musk based on some cherry-picked comments and a completely fabricated story about Hyperloop is wildly at odds with his actual achievements and says more about your own motivations.

Offline cjameshuff

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Re: Starship!
« Reply #73 on: December 21, 2020, 02:17:54 PM »
I personally don't think that it will happen anytime soon. The basic science is sound, but I can't see it happening anytime soon (mind you, there were plenty of serious people in NASA laughing when SpaceX first talked about landing orbital class boosters). I have it in the same area as space elevators and skyhooks with the provisio that we can actually have the materials science to make smaller runs of Hyperloop.

Naysayers focus a lot on the evacuated tubes when the real advantages of the Hyperloop concept were decentralization of the endpoints, routing in a three-dimensional network instead of a two-dimensional grid to reduce congestion issues, and dividing traffic into smaller "packets" to reduce wait times. None of these are particularly controversial. I think Musk will have a harder time disrupting the tunnel boring industry to the degree that he's managed with electric cars, space launch, and satellite internet, but The Boring Company doesn't seem to have trouble getting started on some projects using concepts shared with Hyperloop.

Offline smartcooky

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Re: Starship!
« Reply #74 on: December 21, 2020, 02:39:48 PM »
Smartcookie, I really like you but I am deeply disappointed by your non-answer. Really, "he's a naysayer, I place no store in what this guy says." is your argument? What if I called you an Elon fanboy? Jay would pick us both apart for fallacies, and rightfully so.

Call me what you like, I don't care - I have a hide of a rhinoceros when it comes to name-calling in the internet.
 
Thunderfoot has a grasp of both engineering and physics (I'm merely a physicist). He provides back-of-the-envelope calculations which he uses to support his points. That's more than the average fan boy does or can even understand (not directed at you, I like you, space era brother).

The only thing I see Thunderfoot using is mockery to support his claims, for example, using snippets of "The Simpsons", and excursions into misleading holiday resort ads to take the piss - I don't find that either funny or particularly erudite - its the sort of crap that flat earthers and moon hoax deniers do in their videos. If he wants his viewers to take him seriously, then he needs to cut out the smart alec crap he puts in his videos, and treat the subject matter seriously.

Unlike you, I am not at all impressed with his "grasp of both engineering and physics", for example he claims that the occupants of the pod would not be able to breath and would die because the tube is at vacuum...he clearly hasn't heard of "pressurization"..... Oh wait he has, and he tries (and fails) to explain that too. He claims that an aircraft is sealed up at sea level pressure and while flying at 40,000 feet, the occupants are breathing sea level pressure air. This is completely wrong! Aircraft are pressurized at a pressure ratio usually about 5:1 to 7:1. An aircraft flying at about 40,000 has a cabin altitude of between 6,000 and 8,000 feet, i.e. the occupants are breathing air at the same pressure that they would be standing on a 6,000 to 8,000 foot hill.

So, why don't they just pressurize aircraft at sea level? Because the differential pressures between the aircraft and the cabin interior would be too high, and that would cause the aircraft structure to have to be much stronger (and therefore heavier) to be able to cope with the higher pressure differentials, reducing the aircraft's performance. However, in the case of a hyperloop tube and pod, weight and mass are not as important. A pod could be built strong enough to be pressurized to sea level with a very low pressure inside the tube. Someone with any kind of grasp of engineering would know that - he clearly doesn't.

He buys expensive equipment to demonstrate in experiments (empirically, WHAT A CONCEPT!) what it takes to use cold gas thrusters for car levitation. Musk should go with his tail between his legs. That was one of many moments he let the 90% snake oil salesman out. If you feel otherwise, please argue (preferably with maths and physics), why you believe, flying cars can and should be built with cold gas thrusters to move a little bit around.

We weren't talking about flying cars.

The thing is, the history of engineering and physics is replete with people who have had their ideas called stupid, crazy, infeasible, physically impossible... and then, they actually do it and make it work.

Heavier that Air flying machines (The Wright Brothers)
Rockets to the Moon (Wernher von Braun)
Power distribution using Alternating Current (Nikola Tesla)
Electric Lights (Thomas Edison)
Bringing rocket boosters back from space and landing then vertically (Elon Musk)

The inventors of these these were all told that these things were impossibilities from a physics and engineering standpoint. They were mercilessly mocked for continuing to waste their time and effort trying.

Then there are people who were brilliant in their fields of science and engineering, who got some of the fundamental principles completely wrong.

Robert Goddard put the nozzles of his rockets at the top because, as brilliant as he was, he didn't understand The Pendulum Fallacy.

Fred Hoyle (an otherwise brilliant astronomer) held a belief in his "Steady State" theory of the universe, despite the fact that it violated a fundamental principle of physics, - that matter cannot be either created or destroyed.

Simon Newcomb, one of the greatest scientific minds of his time....."aerial flight is one of the great class of problems with which man can never cope....  even if a man flew he could not stop. Once he slackens his speed, down he begins to fall. Once he stops, he falls as a dead mass.". Of course, Newcomb, brilliant as he was, did not understand the concept of an airfoil.

Just because an idea might seem crazy, does not mean it should not be investigated, because you never know what might be learned from trying...

"Many hypotheses proposed by scientists as well as by non-scientists turn out to be wrong. But science is a self-correcting enterprise. To be accepted, all new ideas must survive rigorous standards of evidence. The worst aspect of the Velikovsky affair is not that his hypotheses were wrong or in contradiction to firmly established facts, but that some who called themselves scientists attempted to suppress Velikovsky’s work. Science is generated by and devoted to free inquiry: the idea that any hypothesis, no matter how strange, deserves to be considered on its merits. The suppression of uncomfortable ideas may be common in religion and politics, but it is not the path to knowledge; it has no place in the endeavor of science. We do not know in advance who will discover fundamental new insights."
- Carl Sagan, circa1980
► What you can assert without evidence, I can dismiss without evidence
► When you argue with idiots you risk being dragged down to their level and beaten with experience.
► Conspiracism is a shortcut to the illusion of erudition