Author Topic: Wonderful Photographs from Mars  (Read 85062 times)

Offline Glom

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Re: Wonderful Photographs from Mars
« Reply #150 on: September 27, 2012, 05:29:52 AM »
The thrust of a solid rocket can be controlled by the way the propellent is packed. That's probably not what anyone means by controllable though.

Offline ka9q

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Re: Wonderful Photographs from Mars
« Reply #151 on: September 27, 2012, 06:33:45 AM »
Yeah, that's controlling the thrust beforehand. The Shuttle SRBs had a "thrust bucket" during the max-Q region to minimize stresses. The main engines throttled back for the same reason. Watch any of the videos taken in the shuttle cockpit during launch and you'll hear the wind noise peak quite loudly during this period. Those forces are what destroyed Challenger.

There is a way to "terminate thrust" on a solid fuel rocket: you blow the nozzle off and/or slit the case lengthwise. The latter was done by the range safety officer some time after the Challenger stack came apart, as the SRBs were flying unguided and at least one was turning back toward land. Unfortunately this doesn't stop the propellant from burning, but at least it stops thrust.

Offline cjameshuff

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Re: Wonderful Photographs from Mars
« Reply #152 on: September 27, 2012, 11:45:09 AM »
Hybrids also don't mix the propellants as well as liquid engines, and share the problems solids have of the combustion chamber volume and surface area changing over time and problematic vibrations at large scales, while needing nearly as much plumbing as a real liquid engine. Liquid engines often use a single turbine to drive to drive the fuel and oxidizer pumps, and all you're getting rid of is the fuel pump. Reducing its size, really...you still need a tank of liquid fuel and fuel plumbing to run the oxidizer pump. Unless the engine's pressure fed, in which case you need a much heavier oxidizer tank.

Solids can be customized for a certain thrust profile, but doing so is rather complicated and has to be done when the fuel is being cast. They also aren't as simple as they seem.

Manufacturing the fuel grains takes a lot of work and testing to ensure the fuel is consistently mixed and cast without any flaws (with an interesting disposal issue for failed or expired fuel), and there are additional handling concerns: you have to ship big chunks of solid fuel around, and keep an inventory of different fuel castings if you need different burn profiles for different launches. The stuff does have a limited shelf-life, as well. The handling problem is made worse because the vehicle can't be fueled on the pad. The fuel grains have to be installed while the vehicle is being assembled, which leads to incidents like this.

Their poor performance also means an all-solid system has to use a large number of stages. 2 or 3 stages is about ideal for liquid rockets, all-solid launch systems are rarely less than 4 stages and I've never heard of one with just 2 stages.

The fact that they can't be shut down non-destructively is really a major issue...the most recent Falcon 9 launch would have been a loss-of-vehicle accident if it had been using a solid first stage, instead it shut down before liftoff on the first attempt and was launched a few days later.

Poor performance, inflexible, safety and reliability issues...it's not surprising that none of the CCDev candidates are using them (Liberty is out, fortunately). All-solid launch systems are limited in capability and expensive...the cost per kg to orbit of the Pegasus air-launched all-solid system was about twice that of the already-expensive Shuttle, making it the most expensive launch system on a kg to orbit basis, and not even being particularly affordable on a cost per launch basis (where tiny all-solid systems try to compete with liquids).

Solids are used in US and ESA systems as boosters, but Russian and Chinese systems seem to favor liquid fueled boosters. These give better performance and don't seem to be overly expensive, considering that the cheapest rides into orbit are those same Russian and Chinese rockets. The heaviest variants of the US Delta IV and Atlas V also use liquid boosters, though the latter hasn't actually been flown.

Offline sts60

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Re: Wonderful Photographs from Mars
« Reply #153 on: October 23, 2012, 01:33:20 PM »
I want them to succeed and show us something useful that we have not seen before. Surely the Curiosity is going to find something new.
While waiting for any reply since my rebuttal to Jockndoris' now month-old post, I thought it worthwhile to mention one of the several interesting new things that Curiosity has found.  There were unexpected increases in power generation from the RTG during the Martian evening.  It turns out that the likely explanation is that cooling air after nightfall causes a breeze to come down the mountain, providing extra cooling and temporarily increasing the Carnot efficiency of the thermoelectric conversion.  Neat stuff, and something not observed on previous planetary RTG missions (Vikings 1 and 2 landed in plains).

Offline ka9q

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Re: Wonderful Photographs from Mars
« Reply #154 on: October 23, 2012, 06:58:31 PM »
Neat stuff, and something not observed on previous planetary RTG missions (Vikings 1 and 2 landed in plains).
The Viking landers also had covers over their RTGs, so breezes would not provide much extra cooling. The Curiosity RTG cooling fins can be seen partly exposed; I presume heat is picked up from the sides of the RTG and circulated through loops to the rest of the rover to keep it warm.

I sent some questions to the Idaho lab that fabricated the Curiosity RTG and was pleased to get a quick response from the director. One of my questions was the temperature of the cooling fins and whether they were a burn hazard to the staff.  The answer was "200F" and "yes". That would be on earth, of course; I don't know about Mars. The lower ambient temperature would suggest lower radiator temperatures, but the thinner atmosphere means less convection and more dependence on radiation, and that would drive the temperature up. I had asked about the radiative properties of the paint on the fins, but he didn't know the answer to that one.



Offline ka9q

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Re: Wonderful Photographs from Mars
« Reply #155 on: October 23, 2012, 07:46:50 PM »
Hybrids also don't mix the propellants as well as liquid engines
Yesterday I got into a debate (more like an argument, of course) with a Youtube hoaxer about mixture ratios in rocket engines. He thought the "rich black smoke" from the Saturn first stage (where?) somehow proved NASA wasn't serious about making an efficient rocket engine.

I pointed out that every bipropellant liquid rocket engine I know runs rich to lower the temperature in the combustion chamber and to improve Isp by lowering the average molecular weight of the exhaust. Then I realized I didn't know the mixture ratios of hybrid rockets, or even how you might control it.

Looking through Rocket Propulsion Elements by Sutton & Biblarz I found that the mixture ratio of a hybrid varies with the oxidizer flow rate, richer at low flow and leaner at high flows. That makes sense, and I guess hybrids are harder to throttle than I thought.

This happens a lot, and it's the one reason I still argue with hoaxers. In the process of rebutting their nonsense I often learn something even though they never do.

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problematic vibrations at large scales

When I first got into high power rocketry a few years ago, APCP was in short supply because of the disasters at their production plants, so hybrid rockets were the rage. I noticed they had a very characteristic "throaty" sound, apparently because of significant combustion oscillations. I can think of several causes. The oxidizer tank is just above the combustion chamber with the N2O fed by both vapor pressure and acceleration. There could be a lag in getting the necessary heat of vaporization into the tank to maintain pressure. Increasing combustion chamber pressure could slow the oxidizer flow. And changes in acceleration could change the flow rate too (i.e., pogo).

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Unless the engine's pressure fed, in which case you need a much heavier oxidizer tank.
Right. Fine for (relatively) small hobby rockets, not so fine for space launch systems.

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with an interesting disposal issue for failed or expired fuel

What's the shelf life? Minuteman and Peacekeeper (sic) missiles are/were on standby for many years.

Can't it just be burned in small amounts in an incinerator? Assuming it hasn't already been cast into a huge grain...

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The fuel grains have to be installed while the vehicle is being assembled, which leads to incidents like this.
I've heard of at least one fatal accident with a solid rocket motor at a NASA facility, in the early 1960s I think. But given how many SRBs have been handled since without incident, apparently the proper safety precautions pay off. I can think of a few: protective covers on the nozzles, installing igniter pyros as late as possible, electromechanical safe & arm systems, grounding everything, and the obvious "no smoking" rule. What else?

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Their poor performance also means an all-solid system has to use a large number of stages. 2 or 3 stages is about ideal for liquid rockets, all-solid launch systems are rarely less than 4 stages and I've never heard of one with just 2 stages.
Yes. Scout was 4 stages. The Pegasus that largely replaced it is only 3, but the carrier aircraft could be considered a zeroth stage. There are several ground-launched versions of the Pegasus (the Minotaur) that add another solid stage.

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The fact that they can't be shut down non-destructively is really a major issue...the most recent Falcon 9 launch would have been a loss-of-vehicle accident if it had been using a solid first stage, instead it shut down before liftoff on the first attempt and was launched a few days later.
To be fair, solids generally do start more reliably. Both can certainly fail during flight, though as we also saw with the recent Falcon 9 liquid failure mechanisms aren't necessarily as catastrophic as those of solids so it's easier to design in some redundancy.

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All-solid launch systems are limited in capability and expensive...the cost per kg to orbit of the Pegasus air-launched all-solid system was about twice that of the already-expensive Shuttle, making it the most expensive launch system on a kg to orbit basis, and not even being particularly affordable on a cost per launch basis (where tiny all-solid systems try to compete with liquids).
How much of Pegasus' high cost is due to being solid, and how much simply to its small size? People don't use it for low cost per kg, they use it to give their small satellite its own orbit instead of having to hitch a ride with a primary payload going somewhere close.

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Solids are used in US and ESA systems as boosters, but Russian and Chinese systems seem to favor liquid fueled boosters. These give better performance and don't seem to be overly expensive
The Ariane 4 also had liquid boosters as an option.

How are those Russian and Chinese boosters fueled? The Ariane used hypergols, so you don't have to load a whole bunch of cryogenic tanks shortly before launch. It seems likely that both Russia and China have less stringent environmental and safety regulations than either Europe or the US and that could make it cheaper for them to use hypergols.

Offline cjameshuff

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Re: Wonderful Photographs from Mars
« Reply #156 on: October 24, 2012, 07:49:55 AM »
What's the shelf life? Minuteman and Peacekeeper (sic) missiles are/were on standby for many years.

Depends on the sort of reliability you require, presumably. Ares 1-X was apparently a Shuttle SRB that was no longer usable on the Shuttle.


Can't it just be burned in small amounts in an incinerator? Assuming it hasn't already been cast into a huge grain...

Not sure what you mean. The stuff is cast as soon as it's made, it's the cast form that has a shelf life. Small grains are easier to dispose of than big ones, yes.


I've heard of at least one fatal accident with a solid rocket motor at a NASA facility, in the early 1960s I think. But given how many SRBs have been handled since without incident, apparently the proper safety precautions pay off. I can think of a few: protective covers on the nozzles, installing igniter pyros as late as possible, electromechanical safe & arm systems, grounding everything, and the obvious "no smoking" rule. What else?

Switching to liquid systems, so even an unforeseeable accident can't set the stuff off during shipping or assembly...
You can make accidents very unlikely, but it becomes more difficult and more costly as you scale up.


How much of Pegasus' high cost is due to being solid, and how much simply to its small size? People don't use it for low cost per kg, they use it to give their small satellite its own orbit instead of having to hitch a ride with a primary payload going somewhere close.

I don't have access to the details, but I suspect the operational costs of launching from an aircraft (transporting a large, heavy load of explosives to an airport, slinging them under a commercial aircraft, flying around carrying an orbital rocket ready to fly, etc) are significant, considering that the Minotaur I was evidently cheaper in cost/kg while having only slightly larger payload.


How are those Russian and Chinese boosters fueled? The Ariane used hypergols, so you don't have to load a whole bunch of cryogenic tanks shortly before launch. It seems likely that both Russia and China have less stringent environmental and safety regulations than either Europe or the US and that could make it cheaper for them to use hypergols.

Hypergolics...but solids may easily be worse environmentally, actually. They produce huge amounts of particulate and perchlorate pollution. Hydrazine and nitrogen tetroxide are unpleasant substances to encounter, but both are unstable substances that don't last long after release. Hydrazine is produced by some yeasts, fungi, and bacteria, and quickly gets broken down or metabolized by something. Nitrogen tetroxide reacts with water to form nitric acid, much like the nitrogen oxides produced by lightning...excessive concentrations can cause problems, but plants require that nitric acid as a nitrogen source.

Offline sts60

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Re: Wonderful Photographs from Mars
« Reply #157 on: October 24, 2012, 03:47:06 PM »
ka9q wrote:

The Viking landers also had covers over their RTGs, so breezes would not provide much extra cooling. The Curiosity RTG cooling fins can be seen partly exposed; I presume heat is picked up from the sides of the RTG and circulated through loops to the rest of the rover to keep it warm.

You are correct; the MMRTG currently generates over 1900 watts of heat, some of which is converted into electrical power, and most of which is radiated by the housing and fins.  Some of this is picked up the by the curved plates flanking the generator and pumped to the rover.  (The tubes on the surface of the generator were only used in flight and pumped the heat to radiators on the cruise stage.)

I sent some questions to the Idaho lab that fabricated the Curiosity RTG

INL fueled, tested, stored, and shipped the MMRTG to the Cape, but it was built by Pratt & Whitney Rocketdyne (California) around thermoelectric modules fabricated by Teledyne (Maryland).  Los Alamos provided the fueled heat sources.  As you can well imagine, a host of subcontractors were involved, and not simply to spread the work but because some of it is fairly specialized.

and was pleased to get a quick response from the director. One of my questions was the temperature of the cooling fins and whether they were a burn hazard to the staff.  The answer was "200F" and "yes". That would be on earth, of course; I don't know about Mars.

The temperature at the base of the fins could get well in excess of 200 F in storage, depending on load conditions and whether forced air cooling was present.  On Mars, the surface temperatures are running over 300 F.

The lower ambient temperature would suggest lower radiator temperatures, but the thinner atmosphere means less convection and more dependence on radiation, and that would drive the temperature up.

Most of the cooling is radiative - less than a fifth is removed by convection and conduction through the mounting.  A few hundred watts is taken from that for the rover heating. 

(BTW, all the Mars rovers have used isotope heat, but Curiousity's three solar-powered predecessors all used tiny passive heaters - three on Sojourner, eight each on Spirit and Opportunity.  Also, the Viking landers also used waste heat from their SNAP-19 generators.)

I had asked about the radiative properties of the paint on the fins, but he didn't know the answer to that one.

I don't remember whether it was Aptek 2711 or AZ-2100; either one is roughly a/e about .2/.9. 

Offline ka9q

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Re: Wonderful Photographs from Mars
« Reply #158 on: October 24, 2012, 06:29:47 PM »
BTW, all the Mars rovers have used isotope heat, but Curiousity's three solar-powered predecessors all used tiny passive heaters - three on Sojourner, eight each on Spirit and Opportunity.  Also, the Viking landers also used waste heat from their SNAP-19 generators.
Yes, and I'm glad that wasn't more widely known or the people who protested Cassini would probably have gotten all riled up about the Mars missions too.

The seismometer deployed on the moon during Apollo 11 also had radioisotope heaters even though power came from solar panels. It didn't seem to help it survive the first lunar night, though.
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either one is roughly a/e about .2/.9.
That's almost as good as OSR (optical solar reflector).

I've been meaning to do a piece on heat transfer in vacuum, as so many Apollo hoax claims are based on a misunderstanding of this topic. (Well, to the extent that any of them are based on an actual misunderstanding as opposed to other, more complex reasons.)
 
« Last Edit: October 24, 2012, 06:36:47 PM by ka9q »

Offline raven

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Re: Wonderful Photographs from Mars
« Reply #159 on: October 24, 2012, 06:35:08 PM »
Lunokhod 1 & 2 also used radioactive sources for heating during the lunar night, and they did survive several lunar cycles.
Now, this probably sounds very ignorant, but why is it necessary? What is so bad about extreme cold for electronics? I know it can increase conductance and have an idea why it would harm chemical cells, but otherwise my knowledge is extremely limited.

Offline ka9q

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Re: Wonderful Photographs from Mars
« Reply #160 on: October 24, 2012, 06:42:50 PM »
What is so bad about extreme cold for electronics?
Good question. I think it mainly has to do with differential expansion and contraction breaking connections, including those inside components like integrated circuits.

Device parameters, like the gain of a transistor amplifier, can vary with temperature. Unless there's enough design margin some circuits can stop working in the cold but come back to life when warmed back up. This is especially common with oscillators.

Some electrical components other than batteries also contain fluids. Electrolytic capacitors, for example. They're generally avoided in space applications because of general unreliability but I don't know if that's always possible.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2012, 06:47:03 PM by ka9q »

Offline ka9q

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Re: Wonderful Photographs from Mars
« Reply #161 on: October 24, 2012, 07:14:47 PM »
Not sure what you mean. The stuff is cast as soon as it's made, it's the cast form that has a shelf life. Small grains are easier to dispose of than big ones, yes.
Now I see the problem. I'm not sure how you'd safely cut up the grain in a large SRB. Somehow I can't envision a bunch of guys with hard hats and chain saws climbing inside.
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I don't have access to the details, but I suspect the operational costs of launching from an aircraft (transporting a large, heavy load of explosives to an airport, slinging them under a commercial aircraft, flying around carrying an orbital rocket ready to fly, etc) are significant, considering that the Minotaur I was evidently cheaper in cost/kg while having only slightly larger payload.
I was wondering about that exact comparison - Pegasus vs Minotaur - as it's about as direct a comparison as you could find. It goes without saying that air-launching a liquid fueled rocket is probably out of the question, and that's why Pegasus is all solid.

BTW, APCP is not an explosive. Tripoli and NAR, the two amateur rocketry societies, went to a lot of trouble to get a federal judge to overrule the BATFE's ruling on that exact issue.

Orbital Sciences certainly claims a lot of advantages to air launching, and some of them are undoubtedly valid. They can launch from almost anywhere, including the equator, without the azimuth limits or dogleg maneuvers imposed by range safety at a fixed launch site. The carrier aircraft doesn't contribute much of the orbital energy but it does allow the rocket to avoid climbing through the dense lower atmosphere and to begin its flight in a near horizontal attitude to reduce gravity losses. I don't know how much benefit the first stage gets from its wings, as lift always costs something in drag.

They don't use a commercial aircraft, they have their own L-1011 modified for the job, and they work out of existing space launch facilities like Vandenberg, KSC, Wallops Island and Kwajalein.
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Hypergolics...but solids may easily be worse environmentally, actually.
I've heard that. I think the main problem is the chlorine/chloride released at high altitude that may be an ozone destroyer. Certainly any solid exhaust particles that end up in stable orbits contribute to the space debris problem. I doubt this is the case for launch vehicles but it could certainly be true for apogee kick motors.
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Nitrogen tetroxide reacts with water to form nitric acid, much like the nitrogen oxides produced by lightning...excessive concentrations can cause problems, but plants require that nitric acid as a nitrogen source.
Nitric acid is a major component of acid rain, and nitrogen oxides (especially nitrogen dioxide, which is the same thing as nitrogen tetroxide) are major air pollutants.


Offline raven

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Re: Wonderful Photographs from Mars
« Reply #162 on: October 24, 2012, 07:40:21 PM »
Good question. I think it mainly has to do with differential expansion and contraction breaking connections, including those inside components like integrated circuits.

Device parameters, like the gain of a transistor amplifier, can vary with temperature. Unless there's enough design margin some circuits can stop working in the cold but come back to life when warmed back up. This is especially common with oscillators.

Some electrical components other than batteries also contain fluids. Electrolytic capacitors, for example. They're generally avoided in space applications because of general unreliability but I don't know if that's always possible.
Thanks! :) Derp, forgot about electrolytic capacitors. :o

Offline cjameshuff

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Re: Wonderful Photographs from Mars
« Reply #163 on: October 26, 2012, 01:55:19 PM »
I was wondering about that exact comparison - Pegasus vs Minotaur - as it's about as direct a comparison as you could find. It goes without saying that air-launching a liquid fueled rocket is probably out of the question, and that's why Pegasus is all solid.

Stratolaunch Systems is apparently going to try it with a scaled down 4 engine version of the Falcon 9. With  a bit under half the payload capacity of a full Falcon 9.

So...rocket built by someone else (loss of the vertical integration that's helping SpaceX keep costs down), the largest aircraft ever built, custom made for the job by another company (Scaled), integration of a what's basically a launch pad for a decent sized rocket into an aircraft (apparently done by yet another company, not Scaled or SpaceX), with loading/topping off of LOX, aerial ignition and release in horizontal flight (I have to assume they're sacrificing the hold-down capability), who knows what contingency plans for a launch failure (drain the fuel in flight? Dump it? Drop the whole thing somewhere? Attempt to land while carrying hundreds of tons of LOX and RP-1?)...

You can probably guess I'm not too optimistic about this.


BTW, APCP is not an explosive. Tripoli and NAR, the two amateur rocketry societies, went to a lot of trouble to get a federal judge to overrule the BATFE's ruling on that exact issue.

Solid rockets are quite capable of exploding, however. When a mistake in handling can lead to this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:2003_Alcântara_VLS_accident.jpg

...whether the fuel is formally classified as an explosive or not doesn't matter much. An in-flight accident prior to launch could bring the whole plane down, send uncontrolled solid motors flying in random directions, or just drop motors from high altitude, with eventual impact causing casing, grain, and nozzle damage simultaneous with possible ignition by friction, static discharge, sparking metal, or simple rapid compression.


Orbital Sciences certainly claims a lot of advantages to air launching, and some of them are undoubtedly valid. They can launch from almost anywhere, including the equator, without the azimuth limits or dogleg maneuvers imposed by range safety at a fixed launch site. The carrier aircraft doesn't contribute much of the orbital energy but it does allow the rocket to avoid climbing through the dense lower atmosphere and to begin its flight in a near horizontal attitude to reduce gravity losses. I don't know how much benefit the first stage gets from its wings, as lift always costs something in drag.

Flight starts out horizontal but with essentially zero vertical velocity...it must swing back to upward flight for a bit. It does reduce the time spent burning upward, which is helpful for small rockets for which atmospheric and gravity drag are a major penalty, but the initially horizontal attitude isn't a benefit.


They don't use a commercial aircraft, they have their own L-1011 modified for the job, and they work out of existing space launch facilities like Vandenberg, KSC, Wallops Island and Kwajalein.

Okay, I should have said a private aircraft. And yeah, the claimed benefit of being able to operate out of any airport hasn't materialized. Despite the claims of some air-launch fans, you do still require specialized equipment and facilities.


Nitric acid is a major component of acid rain, and nitrogen oxides (especially nitrogen dioxide, which is the same thing as nitrogen tetroxide) are major air pollutants.

Again, in excessive concentrations, it's otherwise just a side branch of the nitrogen cycle. Major releases are something you really want to avoid no matter what the environmental effects are...it's not friendly stuff. It could become an issue with really high launch rates, particularly if the area is prone to stratification and photochemical smogs. In areas where occasional minor releases are quickly mixed and diluted, however, it's just fertilizer. Russia may be a bit sloppy with these propellants due to looser environmental regulations, but the major problem is handling.

Solids: any perchlorate that isn't decomposed also contaminates the ground and water near the launch area. Open burning of fuel for disposal releases more due to less complete combustion. IIRC, Cape Canaveral is fairly contaminated...though a good part of the contamination is apparently attributed to failures. And the perchlorate that does decompose ends up producing hydrochloric acid, which also contributes to acid rain but does not do anything particularly beneficial.

Offline ka9q

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Re: Wonderful Photographs from Mars
« Reply #164 on: October 26, 2012, 02:35:15 PM »
Stratolaunch Systems is apparently going to try it with a scaled down 4 engine version of the Falcon 9. With  a bit under half the payload capacity of a full Falcon 9.
I did not know that. And I'm skeptical too. It'll be interesting.
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Solid rockets are quite capable of exploding, however. When a mistake in handling can lead to this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:2003_Alcântara_VLS_accident.jpg
Solid rocket propellant is extremely flammable and potentially dangerous as hell, but it still doesn't  detonate. That's very different.

I still won't store it in my house even if I can do so legally.

« Last Edit: October 26, 2012, 02:37:10 PM by ka9q »