Author Topic: The Trump Presidency  (Read 407676 times)

Offline JayUtah

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1140 on: August 04, 2020, 10:26:55 AM »
A good demagogue never lets something as insignificant as facts get in the way of their spiel and narrative.

Indeed, but what I find infuriating is that there are significant numbers of people who will continue to believe the narrative.  I can point to people who now believe that mail-in ballots are fraught with fraud, and who will defend that belief to the death simply because the demagogue said it.

My state is a Republican stronghold.  We've voted almost exclusively by mail for the past several election cycles.  I can't remember the last time I actually visited a polling place.  In the last general elected we had one instance of voter fraud.  Utah law allows for members of the Mormon church serving full-time missions outside the state to vote as absentees in Utah elections.  (The law is sensibly worded to extend this to all Utah residents similarly situated, without regard to religion, but its intent is clear.)  However, the ballot must be mailed to them directly.  Not all such residents made the appropriate arrangements, so they instructed their parents in Utah to complete the ballot on their behalf.  This is illegal, and it was detected.

Prior to the last primary election, a computer glitch caused a small number of ballots to be mailed to minors.  Utah law allows 17-year-olds to preregister to vote if they will have turned 18 prior to the general election for which the registration is to be considered valid.  The computer checked the date of the general election, but failed to check the date of the primary election.  The clerk's office caught the error and simply invalidated the ballots by a few keystrokes in the computer.

I realize this degree of electoral fidelity is common in more well-developed countries, but it is an example of what has been achieved in some parts of the U.S.  There is simply no truth to the claim that a U.S. election conducted by mail would be more susceptible to fraud than any other method, and Republicans know this.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline gillianren

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1141 on: August 04, 2020, 12:26:51 PM »
Our primary is today.  I was going over the Progressive Voters' Guide for our precinct, and one of the reasons they don't support our current Secretary of State for reelection is that she is a Republican who has for years presided over a vote-by-mail state and is not pointing out how vanishingly rare voter fraud is here.  Hell, if Democratic voter fraud were as common as all that, she wouldn't be in office, because goodness knows we'd have put a Democrat in her job if we were controlling offices that way.  But she won't publicly speak out about it, which they consider her responsibility.  I don't disagree.  It may not be her job, but I believe she's morally obligated.
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Offline Jeff Raven

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1142 on: August 04, 2020, 12:47:18 PM »

I realize this degree of electoral fidelity is common in more well-developed countries, but it is an example of what has been achieved in some parts of the U.S.  There is simply no truth to the claim that a U.S. election conducted by mail would be more susceptible to fraud than any other method, and Republicans know this.

But, but, dead people voting in Chicago!  But, but, Trump said it was a problem!   ::)

I've also seen people claiming that the reason there isn't more widespread voter fraud (even though it has never actually been an issue) is because of all of the efforts of Republicans, including the restrictive ID checks and registration laws. (Which any sane person knows have primarily been a way to disenfranchise minorities) They use a lack of the problem to prove that the problem needs to be addressed even further.  And people buy it.

Offline jfb

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1143 on: August 04, 2020, 02:54:40 PM »

I realize this degree of electoral fidelity is common in more well-developed countries, but it is an example of what has been achieved in some parts of the U.S.  There is simply no truth to the claim that a U.S. election conducted by mail would be more susceptible to fraud than any other method, and Republicans know this.

But, but, dead people voting in Chicago!  But, but, Trump said it was a problem!   ::)

I've also seen people claiming that the reason there isn't more widespread voter fraud (even though it has never actually been an issue) is because of all of the efforts of Republicans, including the restrictive ID checks and registration laws. (Which any sane person knows have primarily been a way to disenfranchise minorities) They use a lack of the problem to prove that the problem needs to be addressed even further.  And people buy it.

And I still want to know when election fraud or campaign fraud became voter fraud (rhetorical question, don't bother answering).  All past examples of election shenanigans were on the parts of election or campaign workers, not voters.  All those dead people didn't vote for LBJ by walking into a polling place with fake IDs. 

You're correct, "voter fraud" is an excuse to systematically disenfranchise specific groups of voters.  It's ballot box stuffing by other means. 

Offline LunarOrbit

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1144 on: August 04, 2020, 03:12:37 PM »
I'm more concerned about mail-in ballots that vote for Biden mysteriously disappearing or being declared invalid for some reason (eg. signatures not matching records precisely). Trump has a history of accusing the Democratic Party of crimes that he is guilty of himself.
It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth.
I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth.
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Offline raven

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1145 on: August 04, 2020, 05:52:41 PM »
A good demagogue never lets something as insignificant as facts get in the way of their spiel and narrative.

Indeed, but what I find infuriating is that there are significant numbers of people who will continue to believe the narrative.  I can point to people who now believe that mail-in ballots are fraught with fraud, and who will defend that belief to the death simply because the demagogue said it.
Quite so. The basic demagogue narrative is irritatingly simple: take one group, remind them of what they don't have, and blame another, disenfranchised minority group why they don't have it.
It's sickeningly effective.

Offline Peter B

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1146 on: August 04, 2020, 06:49:57 PM »

I realize this degree of electoral fidelity is common in more well-developed countries, but it is an example of what has been achieved in some parts of the U.S.  There is simply no truth to the claim that a U.S. election conducted by mail would be more susceptible to fraud than any other method, and Republicans know this.

But, but, dead people voting in Chicago!  But, but, Trump said it was a problem!   ::)

I've also seen people claiming that the reason there isn't more widespread voter fraud (even though it has never actually been an issue) is because of all of the efforts of Republicans, including the restrictive ID checks and registration laws. (Which any sane person knows have primarily been a way to disenfranchise minorities) They use a lack of the problem to prove that the problem needs to be addressed even further.  And people buy it.

Ah, the old conspiracy theorist standby: if there's evidence of a problem then there's a problem. But if there's no evidence of a problem that means the evidence has been suppressed. Heads I win, tails you lose.

Offline Obviousman

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1147 on: August 04, 2020, 07:02:21 PM »
You know, there is something else I didn't consider which may play into this whole scenario: China.

Now, full disclosure: I don't like how the PRC disregards any international laws or conventions whenever those rules are inconvenient to them. I think China needs to play by the rules, or be contained.

Anyway.... what's takes people's attention away from domestic politics? An overseas conflict. If the US went into a (limited, regional) war with China, there would be some unifying effect for the US people, and it WILL distract them.

Normally this would be a CT scenario but this IS Trump we are talking about, and he has shown a shocking disregard for the health & well-being of US citizens if it conflicts with his political agenda.

Offline raven

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1148 on: August 04, 2020, 07:50:10 PM »
Hell's bells, his personal agenda, anything that lines his or his cronies pocketbooks.

Offline gillianren

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1149 on: August 05, 2020, 11:58:11 AM »
Hot take: I don't think Trump, personally, has political agendas.  It's all personal to him.  It crosses into political when he needs it to get what he wants.
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Offline LunarOrbit

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1150 on: August 05, 2020, 02:15:57 PM »
Hot take: I don't think Trump, personally, has political agendas.  It's all personal to him.  It crosses into political when he needs it to get what he wants.

I agree, although I'm sure he has Evangelicals, the NRA, etc. whispering in his ear and convincing him to do things he wouldn't otherwise care about.
It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth.
I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth.
I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
- Neil Armstrong (1930-2012)

Offline gillianren

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1151 on: August 06, 2020, 10:43:18 AM »
I agree, although I'm sure he has Evangelicals, the NRA, etc. whispering in his ear and convincing him to do things he wouldn't otherwise care about.

Oh, definitely, and they get him to do it by flattering his ego and doing things he wants done.
"This sounds like a job for Bipolar Bear . . . but I just can't seem to get out of bed!"

"Conspiracy theories are an irresistible labour-saving device in the face of complexity."  --Henry Louis Gates

Offline Ranb

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1152 on: August 07, 2020, 10:29:28 PM »
I agree, although I'm sure he has Evangelicals, the NRA, etc. whispering in his ear and convincing him to do things he wouldn't otherwise care about.
What do you think the NRA is whispering?
 
Ban the bump stocks.
Take the guns 1st, due process 2nd.
Keep silencers regulated.
We don't need CCW reciprocity.
Don't reverse the Hughes Amendment.
Keep restricting gun imports.

Offline Obviousman

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1153 on: August 08, 2020, 12:12:47 AM »
Putting aside what type of weapons are legal to sell & own, why is there such opposition to a national firearms database?

Offline Ranb

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1154 on: August 08, 2020, 10:12:08 AM »
In the USA, all types of small arms are legal to own.  There are strings attached with some of them though

Part of the reason is that when the government decides to make a gun contraband, it is easier for them to find the newly minted criminals who own them.  Some people don't like that. 

There is already a database for various NFA firearms.  It could be expanded to cover all firearms and some politicians have suggested that we do.