Apollo Discussions > The Hoax Theory

Doubting the power of the F-1

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Peter B:
Another Scott Manley video (starting up the F-1 engine) has brought out another conspiracy theorist. This one is expressing doubt that the thrust of the F-1 engines could be transmitted to the structure of the rocket through the engine gimbals. His view is that the 700+ tons of thrust pushing upwards from each engine on the gimbal structure would crush it. When asked what sort of engine thrust he could believe in, his reply was:


--- Quote --- I don't believe it can be as much as claimed in the case of the F1 engine.  I don't attest to know the design or characteristics of the other engines that you've mentioned, the only research I've done is specific to the Saturn V and F1 engine.

There are other design features of the Saturn V that lead me to believe it was not as powerful as is claimed.  Firstly if you look at some of the more detailed pictures of the construction of the Saturn V, in particular of the thrust structure at the base of the first stage, you will notice it is constructed of relativity thin unbraced aluminium sections.  This structure is responsible for carrying the entire weight of the complete craft both on the pad and during its violent initial lift off phase.  Now bear in mind the total weight of the Saturn V in launch configuration is around some 2,900 tons!

Also bear in mind at full throttle the combined thrust from the five F1 engines is about 3,750 tons!  In essence the thrust structure is bearing more force than would be exerted if holding the weigh of a fully loaded  Gearing class destroyer!  As mentioned the thrust structure is made of an aluminium alloy and weighs about twenty tons IIRC.  It would be some mean feat of engineering if such weight could be supported by such a lightweight fabrication don't you think?

Also should be mentioned, that load would not be distributed evenly across the entire base of the structure, but rather it would be focused to the five points where the engines attach via the gimbals.
--- End quote ---

I don't understand the engineering well enough, so I can't debunk his comments. Would anyone like to have a go? Thanks!

BertieSlack:

--- Quote from: Peter B on September 05, 2022, 06:02:31 AM ---I don't understand the engineering well enough, so I can't debunk his comments. Would anyone like to have a go? Thanks!

--- End quote ---

I don't know about structural engineering either, but it's worth making the point (already made by Jay on an earlier thread I think) that if the F-1 engines weren't as powerful as advertised then the rocket would've just sat on the pad going nowhere since the thrust-to-weight ratio of the rocket was barely bigger than 1:1 even with the advertised spec.
Also worth remembering (hoaxnuts seldom do) that the Saturn V put 80 tons of Skylab into an orbit twice as high as the Apollo parking orbit and it achieved this without a 3rd stage burn.

Zakalwe:
There is no case to debunk as the conspiracy nutjob is basing his case on what he thinks a structure should look like. It's classic Dunning Kruger and based on personal belief.
The proof that it worked is there in front of his eyes- the big-ass rocket lifted off (multiple times) and flew. These things are not in doubt, there are ample first-hand witness accounts as well as thousands of pieces of evidence from independent sources that verify that the rockets flew as designed. 

In basic terms, this individual does not believe his own eyes. Further, he clearly does not have the technical background to asses the strength of the, for example, thrust structure. His position is based on personal incredulity, nothing more. As he said "it would be some mean feat of engineering if such weight could be supported by such a lightweight fabrication- well, it was just that- a mean feat of engineering and one that he is clearly ill equipped to understand.

Finally, the sparse "research" that he has done is very self evident. He says "five points where the engines attach via the gimbals." The four outer engines were gimballed but the centre engine was fixed. it's a small point, but to anyone that knows the basics of the mighty Saturn V such a mistake shows how little the individual actually knows.

smartcooky:
This is a completely nonsense claim.

Even with relatively thin lightweight materials, an extremely strong structure can be custom built where the stress points and thrust vectors are known quantities. Even Mother Nature - Engineer can make things that are much stronger than they seem.

onebigmonkey:
"I don't believe..." is about it.

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