Author Topic: The Trump Presidency  (Read 399671 times)

Offline Peter B

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1695 on: November 23, 2020, 11:20:40 PM »
And now I'm wondering what this Sidney Powell person is going to come up with that's going to make Georgia howl (thank you General Sherman).

Over at UM someone has provided links to articles suggesting that Tucker Carlson and Rush Limbaugh are skeptical of her...

Offline Zakalwe

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1696 on: November 24, 2020, 01:27:32 AM »
The pundits are saying that Trump will leave but never admit he was beaten. Looking at his track record, I think the pundits are correct. He'll continually claim he was robbed.

Meh. Whatever.
His fragile little-man ego won't cope, but he'll be gone.

And now I'm wondering what this Sidney Powell person is going to come up with that's going to make Georgia howl (thank you General Sherman).

Over at UM someone has provided links to articles suggesting that Tucker Carlson and Rush Limbaugh are skeptical of her...
Looks like her crazy conspiracy theory involving the Canadian-owned Dominion voting system, Hugo Chavez (dead for the last 7 years) and the Trump-backing Republican Brian Kemp was too crazy even for Trump. She's been fired.....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-us-2020-55040756
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Offline molesworth

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1697 on: November 24, 2020, 05:12:36 AM »
Someone on another forum linked to the live stream of Georgia's certification meeting last night, and I watched some of it out of interest.  The statements from various poll watchers and officials was quite eye-opening, with person after person describing nonsensical attempts by Republican watchers to interfere with and slow down the counting process.  I know it's part of the process to ensure fairness and prevent fraud, but to politicise it in this way is shocking.

I'd hope that stricter rules about what is and isn't acceptable are introduced, otherwise I can imagine vote counting to be severely impacted in future elections.
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Offline Zakalwe

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1698 on: November 24, 2020, 06:29:16 AM »
Someone on another forum linked to the live stream of Georgia's certification meeting last night, and I watched some of it out of interest.  The statements from various poll watchers and officials was quite eye-opening, with person after person describing nonsensical attempts by Republican watchers to interfere with and slow down the counting process.  I know it's part of the process to ensure fairness and prevent fraud, but to politicise it in this way is shocking.

I'd hope that stricter rules about what is and isn't acceptable are introduced, otherwise I can imagine vote counting to be severely impacted in future elections.

That's been Trump's playbook from day one. Accuse others of doing what he has been doing in plain view. Trump accuses the Democratic party of stealing the election whilst he is busy trying to steal the election.
"The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.' " - Isaac Asimov

Offline gillianren

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1699 on: November 24, 2020, 11:14:28 AM »
And your vote only counts if you vote for them, it seems.
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Offline JayUtah

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1700 on: November 24, 2020, 01:35:23 PM »
Meh. Whatever.
His fragile little-man ego won't cope, but he'll be gone.

Gone from any real power, yes.  But I'm sure he'll work as hard as he possibly can to make sure attention is focused on him as much as possible during the Biden presidency.  While Fox News may have dropped him, there will be plenty of talk radio willing to host the former President and give him a platform to continue claiming loudly that some shadowy Democrat conspiracy deprived him of a second term, and that all those loyal patriots out there should keep fighting for the Republic.

What does scare me, however, is that former Presidents continue to receive top secret briefings until they die.  The idea is that the former President's experience during his administration will prove useful to some future President continuing to deal with the same issues.  But his knowledge has to be current in order for that plan to work.  We'll have an ex-President deeply in debt, continuing to be fed official state secrets, violating laws left and right with impunity, and desperate for continued relevance.  If Mother Nature doesn't continue ravaging his health, let's hope the State of New York is able to make good on the threat of criminal prosecution.  He needs to be more out of circulation than simply not being President anymore.

Quote
[Sidney Powell's] been fired.....

Hey, Donald J. Trump hires only "the best people."  In order to litigate in various state and federal courts, you need to hire attorneys who are admitted to the bar there, and who understand the state's procedural rules and the ground rules of each individual court.  But of course the Trump team sends in people like Powell and Giuliani to dictate the desired strategy to these local counselors.  And as those Trump operatives become increasing unhinged, no serious attorney wants to be associated with them.  So ultimately it comes down to a practical question.  If literally no one wants to work as local counsel for Trump For President anymore, then he literally can't accomplish the work to prosecute his case.  So he has no choice but to cut Powell loose, no matter how much he wants to play the QAnon card for theatrical effect.

Even in large cities, legal communities are relatively small.  Everyone knows everyone else, at least at the firm level.  Every attorney knows all the judges and all the judges know all the attorneys.  Getting embroiled in something like nutjob conspiracy theories in the serious practice of law will taint their reputations, even if they previously didn't have much of one.  Nobody forgets that time you got laughed out of court after pitching a conspiracy theory with no evidence.  I'm sure there would be plenty of firms willing to litigate Trump's election challenges as long as they were able to develop the strategy.  But only the most desperate firms with nothing to lose, I think, would be willing to let themselves be led around by the likes of Powell and Giuliani.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline JayUtah

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1701 on: November 24, 2020, 02:30:41 PM »
That's been Trump's playbook from day one. Accuse others of doing what he has been doing in plain view. Trump accuses the Democratic party of stealing the election whilst he is busy trying to steal the election.

I'm worried it's going to continue to be the Republican playbook for as long as they can harness the power of ignorant madness that Pres. Trump has stirred up.  Once you've allowed something to become the New Normal, it's very hard to walk it back.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline gillianren

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1702 on: November 25, 2020, 10:23:56 AM »
Is it possible they won't continue to give him briefings?  It's a well-established fact that he doesn't pay attention to briefing now, and I can't see that anyone would be in need of his advice and experience.
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Offline JayUtah

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1703 on: November 25, 2020, 11:20:24 AM »
Is it possible they won't continue to give him briefings?  It's a well-established fact that he doesn't pay attention to briefing now, and I can't see that anyone would be in need of his advice and experience.

A not-insignificant portion of America still thinks he's the most brilliant and courageous man who ever lived.  It's hard to preach unity and then deliver a message so obviously divisive as saying his advice is categorically worthless.  And while Trump is President, digesting the daily briefings is an ongoing chore pertaining to a job he never really wanted and doesn't care to perrform.  But as soon as he's out of office, the briefing becomes something he's entitled to, but not getting because a Democrat administration says so.  That sets the precedent that a future Republican President can up and decide that Joe Biden isn't entitled to ex-Presidential briefings either.  That widens the political rift President-elect Biden says he wants to close.  And if you believe the premise of the policy -- that it's meant to derive strength from continuity of leadership across administrations -- then that strength is lost as soon as either party starts withholding it for political reasons.  I think it will sting a lot of Biden supporters to realize that in order to cement his call for unity, President Biden will have to conspicuously respect former President Trump as if he really wasn't a total embarrassment to the nation.

You could argue that Trump is, and has always been, a security risk and has a documented history of mishandling classified information.  And on those grounds you could deny him the briefings.  But that just goes back to a discretionary opinion to which political foes can attach all kinds of ulterior political motives.  A practical solution, iffy though it may be, is for state prosecutors to quickly transform Donald J. Trump into a convicted felon, whereupon he has to surrender his security clearance and is no longer eligible to receive classified information.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline jfb

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1704 on: November 25, 2020, 12:01:15 PM »
Is it possible they won't continue to give him briefings?  It's a well-established fact that he doesn't pay attention to briefing now, and I can't see that anyone would be in need of his advice and experience.

Per NPR:

Quote from: NPR
By tradition, sitting presidents offer occasional briefings to former presidents. It's considered good practice for all involved. For example, when a former president plans to travel abroad, a briefing can make sure he's up to speed and doesn't say anything that would be out of line with current administration policy.

Priess said he once delivered such a briefing to George H.W. Bush before he made a post-presidential trip to the Middle East.

But these briefings are a courtesy, not the law.

Former presidents get "Secret Service protection for the rest of their lives. They get money for a staff and an office. All of that is provided for in legislation," said Priess. "But that legislation does not say that the former president has a lifelong right to receive the President's Daily Brief or other top-secret materials that they received while they were president."

Doing a quickie search at the Legal Information Institute at Cornell, I found the following:

Quote from: 32 CFR § 1905
(c) Former Presidents and Vice Presidents. Any former President or Vice President may submit a request for access to classified CIA information. Requests from former Presidents or Vice Presidents shall be in writing to the Coordinator and shall identify the records containing the classified information of interest. A former President or Vice President may also request approval for a research associate, but there is no entitlement to such enlargement of access and the decision in this regard shall be in the sole discretion of the Senior Agency Official

I've found several other sections in the Code of Federal Regulations that make it sound like former Presidents and Vice-Presidents may request access to classified information, but are not provided with it as a matter of course.  The request must be submitted in writing with assurance that the information will be safeguarded. 

This is based on a very cursory search, and IANAL nor do I play one on TV, so I'm very likely missing some important language somewhere. 

Based on my own experience in the military-industrial complex, I very strongly doubt that former Presidents and Vice-Presidents have ready access to sensitive information just as a matter of course, but that could be wrong. 

Offline JayUtah

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1705 on: November 25, 2020, 12:24:56 PM »
I've found several other sections in the Code of Federal Regulations that make it sound like former Presidents and Vice-Presidents may request access to classified information, but are not provided with it as a matter of course.  The request must be submitted in writing with assurance that the information will be safeguarded.

Thanks for looking up the details.  It's definitely comforting.  Obviously I don't know either what the briefings actually contain, but it seems there's no reason to presuppose it's classified.  I agree with your judgment stemming from your own experience.  If you take the basic need-to-know rule as a guide, I can't rule out that a former President would never need to know sensitive information in order to carry out his ex officio obligations.  But I'm pleased to hear that it's not likely part of the briefings in question.

Another way to approach this, given what the regulations actually say, would be to note that Donald J. Trump would probably prefer to rely upon his own "knowledge" and "expertise" when appearing in public as the former President.  And that embarrassing the United States or the current administration is not something he would worry about.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline Zakalwe

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1706 on: November 25, 2020, 12:26:59 PM »

Hey, Donald J. Trump hires only "the best people."  In order to litigate in various state and federal courts, you need to hire attorneys who are admitted to the bar there, and who understand the state's procedural rules and the ground rules of each individual court.  But of course the Trump team sends in people like Powell and Giuliani to dictate the desired strategy to these local counselors.  And as those Trump operatives become increasing unhinged, no serious attorney wants to be associated with them.  So ultimately it comes down to a practical question.  If literally no one wants to work as local counsel for Trump For President anymore, then he literally can't accomplish the work to prosecute his case.  So he has no choice but to cut Powell loose, no matter how much he wants to play the QAnon card for theatrical effect.

Even in large cities, legal communities are relatively small.  Everyone knows everyone else, at least at the firm level.  Every attorney knows all the judges and all the judges know all the attorneys.  Getting embroiled in something like nutjob conspiracy theories in the serious practice of law will taint their reputations, even if they previously didn't have much of one.  Nobody forgets that time you got laughed out of court after pitching a conspiracy theory with no evidence.  I'm sure there would be plenty of firms willing to litigate Trump's election challenges as long as they were able to develop the strategy.  But only the most desperate firms with nothing to lose, I think, would be willing to let themselves be led around by the likes of Powell and Giuliani.

Unless, of course, they are true believers in Trump and his schtick. They drunk the Kool Aid and they actually believe that they are good people doing good work. I think that this article puts it very well
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/11/why-wont-emily-murphy-just-do-her-job/617184/
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Offline LunarOrbit

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1707 on: November 25, 2020, 12:31:45 PM »
I've often thought they should give Donald Trump some false intel about something that Russia would be interested in and then wait to see if they act on it in some way.
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Offline Obviousman

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1708 on: November 25, 2020, 03:28:59 PM »
I've often thought they should give Donald Trump some false intel about something that Russia would be interested in and then wait to see if they act on it in some way.

A 'barium meal'? I'd love to see that.

Offline ineluki

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1709 on: November 26, 2020, 04:57:36 AM »
Another way to approach this, given what the regulations actually say, would be to note that Donald J. Trump would probably prefer to rely upon his own "knowledge" and "expertise" when appearing in public as the former President. 

Even leaving aside any scenarios of him selling the information, Trump being Trump would  probably request it just because he felt entitled to it and to be a nuisance to the new administration