Author Topic: URGENT - please save our friendship with Apollo science!  (Read 19701 times)

Offline Dababa

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URGENT - please save our friendship with Apollo science!
« on: December 14, 2012, 07:31:28 PM »
Hi all, my best friend and I are in urgent need of some hard Apollo science to save our friendship.
Over the past year he's become a fervent HB and it drives me crazy... I worry it's his gateway into UFOs, pseudoscience and all sorts of messy thinking. he has a biomedical science degree but has recently slipped into this vortex of uncritical thinking.
 
I need from you guys responses to two of his final hoax claims (the rest I've dealt with). I'm very sorry to put this burden on you guys, but it's getting serious!

Claim one: He's sure the Apollo flagpoles would have melted (and/or destroyed the flag) due to the acknowledge high temperatures of the lunar surface. Can someone please hit back hard with an explanation. I'm worried though, that if someone just says the poles were 'electrolytically plated', that won't be enough. He will laugh it off... i need a thorough, referenced rundown of the poles' composition and heat resistance etc.

Claim two: he's also sure the LM and EVA suits couldn't possibly be cooled sufficiently, given the surface temperature of the moon. Again, is there HARD DATA than can prove the LM and EVA could be cooled... to win this one we need an explanation of the systems' cooling capacities.

also, any information about heat transference in a vacuum would be useful to bolster the above two responses.

Again, I'm sorry to ask for this 'service' but it's all for a very good cause! Thank you very much in advance.

SAM.


Offline Grashtel

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Re: URGENT - please save our friendship with Apollo science!
« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2012, 09:33:11 PM »
Ask your friend who hot he thinks the Moon gets, and don't let him get away without giving an actual number rather than just "high" or admitting that he doesn't have one.

Based on a quick review of a few sources on the web the highest value for the maximum equatorial temperature on the Moon is only 116 centigrade, ie well below the melting point of anything that the flagpole is likely to be made out of (IIRC it was some variation of aluminium, which melts at ~660C) and because of the reflective exteriors of the suits and the LM they would never have gotten that hot even without active cooling.
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Offline DataCable

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Re: URGENT - please save our friendship with Apollo science!
« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2012, 09:41:12 PM »
Claim one: He's sure the Apollo flagpoles would have melted (and/or destroyed the flag) due to the acknowledge high temperatures of the lunar surface.
Point 1: How hot is he claiming the "acknowledged" high temperature is?  At what temperature would the flagpole have melted?

Point B: Why would the surface temperature affect the flag?  The flag wasn't on the surface.  (Well, the ones left too close to the LM when the ascent stage took off probably ended up there, but that's not important right now.)

Quote
Claim two: he's also sure the LM and EVA suits couldn't possibly be cooled sufficiently, given the surface temperature of the moon.
See point B above.  The issues with cooling the LM and suits don't have anything to do with the moon, but with rejecting internally-produced waste heat (from the astronauts and their equipment) to the outside vacuum.  These issues are essentially the same for spacecraft and EVA-suited astronauts in low Earth orbit, nowhere near contact with the moon.
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Offline ka9q

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Re: URGENT - please save our friendship with Apollo science!
« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2012, 09:41:47 PM »
Regarding thermal control of the LM and EMU (pressure suit + life support system):

Both used the same basic thermal design: heavy insulation against the extremes in ambient temperature and active rejection of metabolic and equipment heat by evaporating water into vacuum.

The cooling device was called a "sublimator" because that's what it actually did. A nickel plate had one set of channels for a closed coolant loop and another open through small pores to vacuum for the feedwater. When the water reached vacuum, part of it immediately vaporized carrying away enough heat to freeze the remainder and seal the pores, cooling the plate and the coolant. As waste heat sublimated the ice, more water came out and froze, automatically regulating the cooling water flow. Simple and effective, like much of Apollo.

The insulation consisted of "thermal blankets" made of layers of aluminized Kapton or Mylar separated, in the pressure suit, by layers of Dacron fabric. The aluminum reflected radiated heat, and in a vacuum there was no air to conduct or convect heat. Essentially they formed multiple nested Thermos bottles so they were extremely effective.
 
« Last Edit: December 14, 2012, 09:43:34 PM by ka9q »

Offline ka9q

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Re: URGENT - please save our friendship with Apollo science!
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2012, 10:20:14 PM »
Point B: Why would the surface temperature affect the flag?  The flag wasn't on the surface.
The surface temperature is important, because it's radiatively coupled with the flag.

Objects in vacuum reach a radiative equilibrium with their surroundings, i.e., they absorb and radiate equal heat powers. If this is disturbed, it warms or cools until a balance is restored (this is what global warming is all about).

Something on the daytime lunar surface will absorb heat from two sources: the sun (primarily in the visible and near IR) and the lunar surface (primarily in the far IR, though there is also a little reflected sunlight). It radiates in all directions, including toward black sky that is essentially at absolute zero (the 3K Big Bang background, actually).

The equilibrium temperature of an object depends on all these environmental factors plus its surface optical properties, particularly the ratio of its "darkness" in visible/near IR (absorptivity) to its "darkness" in the far IR (emissivity). The absorptivity controls how much it absorbs from the sun and lunar albedo, and the emissivity controls how efficiently it radiates and how much it absorbs (despite the term "emissivity") from the hot lunar surface.

Offline Glom

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Re: URGENT - please save our friendship with Apollo science!
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2012, 04:51:20 AM »
I like that. HBism is a gateway drug.

Things to mention
It's stupid to talk about high temperature of a vacuum.
If a flagpole will melt, why not every other spacecraft sent there?
If you have indeed shot down in flames a minefield of other HB arguments, challenge him on his apparent psychological need to cling to this absurd conspiracy theory.
Point out this kind of thinking is the realm of crazy people. He probably thinks he's being really smart "challenging authority" like this. Don't let him be comfortable with that conceit.

Offline Echnaton

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Re: URGENT - please save our friendship with Apollo science!
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2012, 08:54:11 AM »
Welcome to the board Sam.

Frequently the best way to save a friendship is to agree not to talk about certain subjects.  Not talking about his conspiricism and engaging him in the areas of is life where he is rational may be the best solution for your desire to be a good friend.  You can't stop a journey into the labyrinth, but you can offer a dose of reason to help him in the fight and a thread to follow on the way back.
The sun shone, having no alternative, on the nothing new. —Samuel Beckett

Offline Trebor

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Re: URGENT - please save our friendship with Apollo science!
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2012, 12:40:51 PM »
It seems the recognised 'maximum' surface temperature on the moon is about 120 Celsius.
Which is not really going to melt any metal.

As for Nylon (which it seems the flags were made from?), the melting point depends on the type and is between 190 and 350 Celsius.
What the actual environment would do to them long term I have no idea.

« Last Edit: December 15, 2012, 12:55:03 PM by Trebor »

Offline AtomicDog

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Re: URGENT - please save our friendship with Apollo science!
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2012, 03:55:27 PM »
What would keep a spacesuit that cools effectively in earth orbit from cooling effectively on the moon?  I'm sure that the ISS with its white surfaces is a lot better reflector of heat than the lunar surface.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2012, 04:01:00 PM by AtomicDog »
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Offline ka9q

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Re: URGENT - please save our friendship with Apollo science!
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2012, 11:39:58 PM »
What would keep a spacesuit that cools effectively in earth orbit from cooling effectively on the moon?  I'm sure that the ISS with its white surfaces is a lot better reflector of heat than the lunar surface.
The answer is the hot lunar surface. As others have mentioned, it can get over 100 C at midday so it radiates quite a bit in the far infrared and heats other objects that appear dark at those wavelengths. The earth doesn't get nearly this hot so spacecraft in low earth orbit are in a much more benign thermal environment.

That same property (appearing dark in the far IR) is necessary to reject heat to deep space so radiators on or near the moon must be shielded from directly seeing the lunar surface. Although the ALSEPs were designed to do this, on Apollo 15 they ran hotter than expected because they saw the lunar mountains surrounding the site.

This extreme range in ambient temperature is why the Apollo suits were designed to maximally insulate their wearers, which in turned required active cooling to reject metabolic and equipment heat. Water evaporation was fine for a short lunar stay, especially as they were all gone by local solar noon, but it's obvious that any long-term lunar explorers will need cooling that doesn't squander something as precious as water on the  moon.

« Last Edit: December 15, 2012, 11:43:19 PM by ka9q »

Offline Not Myself

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Re: URGENT - please save our friendship with Apollo science!
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2012, 11:59:04 PM »
It seems the recognised 'maximum' surface temperature on the moon is about 120 Celsius.
Which is not really going to melt any metal.

Yea, they probably didn't make it out of mercury  ;D

If a flagpole will melt, why not every other spacecraft sent there?

I don't know that I'd go with that one, I think it might have the opposite effect from the one you're hoping :(
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Offline ka9q

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Re: URGENT - please save our friendship with Apollo science!
« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2012, 12:27:09 AM »
It seems the recognised 'maximum' surface temperature on the moon is about 120 Celsius.
Which is not really going to melt any metal.

Yea, they probably didn't make it out of mercury  ;D
Or gallium, potassium, sodium, rubidium or caesium.

Offline Count Zero

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Re: URGENT - please save our friendship with Apollo science!
« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2012, 01:07:46 AM »
Let's talk about the "temperature on the moon". That phrase has led to a lot of confusion. You have no doubt heard that the temperature on the Moon varies from -250F up to 250F. I live in Texas, and in the summertime, the temperature gets up over 100F, so standing on the Moon must be like standing in an oven, right?

No.

If, on a hot summer day here in Texas, I walk out on the sidewalk barefoot, it's hot enough to cause pain. If I step onto the asphalt street, I will blister my feet. Why? 100F is less than two degrees above normal body temperature. The solid pavement is hotter than the transparent air because it absorbs more radiant energy from the sunlight. The light-colored concrete sidewalk may heat-up to 120-140F. The darker asphalt may get up to 180F or more.

When we ask, "what is the temperature outside?" we are asking about the ambient temperature of the air. On the Moon, there is no air, so when we ask about the temperature there, we are asking about the temperature of a specific object on the surface; a patch of dirt, a rock, a camera or an astronaut's spacesuit (and specifying whether it is the side facing towards or away from the Sun). Note that this varies: In my above example, the sidewalk was ~130F, but the asphalt was 180+ F. When a textbook says that it gets up to 250F on the Moon, it is referring to the surface of a black, solid object with its face perpendicular to the Sun at local noon.

The actual lunar surface is not black: It's about the same shade as asphalt (not the fresh-laid black stuff, but rather the dark/medium grey color it fades to after a few years). It heats up to roughly 200F. Mind you, the Moon is the same average distance from the Sun as the Earth. All things being equal, lunar regolith and asphalt should reach the same temperature. However, the asphalt is cooled somewhat because the air in contact with the pavement conducts away some of the heat (we can see it doing this: it causes the shimmering effect when we look across a hot parking lot). Also, daylight only last ~12 hours on Earth, but it's 14 days from sunrise to sunset on the Moon.

I said before that the pavement here in Texas can get up to ~180F. However, on a summer day I can go outside and walk on it barefoot with no discomfort. How? It's simple: I do it at 8:00am, before it gets anywhere near that hot. The Apollo astronauts did the same thing: They landed when the rising sun was only ~10 degrees above the horizon and the surface temperature was ~30F. When they left three days later (on the longest missions), the sun was still only half-way up the sky, and the surface temperature was a bit over 100F (yes, NASA did have the technology to make insulated shoes in the 1960s ).

(Allow me to state the blindingly obvious: The surface starts out cold because it has spent all night radiating its heat into space. As someone else already pointed out, when a surface is in the sun, it absorbs light based on its reflectivity (more reflective absorbs less energy) and its angle to the sun (a perpendicular angle to the light absorbs more than an oblique angle). When the same surface is shaded from the sun, it radiates heat as efficiently as it absorbs it - a black surface radiates faster than a light one.)

For astronauts, heat management is a crucial issue that requires careful engineering, whether they are on the Moon or in Earth orbit - Remember, they are at the same average distance from the Sun. In fact, the Earth is more reflective than the Moon, so astronauts & spacecraft in Earth orbit get more reflected energy than those on the Moon (even though the surface is much further away, there's a lot more area doing the reflecting). For spacecraft & spacesuits (which can be thought of as mini-spacecraft), the engineering solution is basically the same: Keep as much of the outside heat out and control the heat that's being generated on the inside to maintain comfortable levels.

Outside heat from direct & reflected sunlight is kept out by using a reflective outer layer, backed up by layers of insulation. When you look at the flimsy-looking outer covers of the Lunar Module, you're only seeing the reflective skin that covers the actual structural members and pressure vessels beneath. Interestingly, Middle Eastern nomads developed the same principle centuries ago: Those volumous white robes they wear serve the same function, and work better than shorts and a t-shirt to keep them cool in the desert.

Inside, heat is generated by electronics and by the astronauts themselves. On full-size spacecraft, most of the heat comes from electronics, and any excess goes to shielded radiators on the hull (on Apollo 13, when they lost power, they shut down the electronics and therefore their main heat source, which is why it got so cold). Men doing geology on the Moon, and building the International Space Station in orbit are basically doing heavy work for hours in an airtight rubber suit. Beneath the rubber, they wear something like long underwear that has a whole network of tubes. They pump water through the tubes to something called a porous-plate sublimator, which carries the heat away to space.

The smaller pieces of equipment on the Moon, such as cameras and experiment packages mainly relied on reflective outer casings. In these cases, keeping the dark lunar dust off of them was a major concern. On the EVA videos, you can hear some exasperation from the astronauts after the umpteenth request from Houston to dust-off the TV camera because it's overheating. Of course, the astronauts and the still cameras they carried were almost constantly turning this way and that, so individual surfaces spent as much time facing away from the Sun as towards it.

Hopefully this helps clear things up.
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Offline Noldi400

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Re: URGENT - please save our friendship with Apollo science!
« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2012, 05:06:19 AM »
Quote
They landed when the rising sun was only ~10 degrees above the horizon and the surface temperature was ~30F. When they left three days later (on the longest missions), the sun was still only half-way up the sky, and the surface temperature was a bit over 100F (yes, NASA did have the technology to make insulated shoes in the 1960s ).
And, just as a side note, on those longer missions some of the astronauts were beginning to have a problem with their hands getting hot as the sun got higher in the sky. (The LCG - Liquid Cooling Gament mentioned above - didn't cover their hands.
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Offline twik

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Re: URGENT - please save our friendship with Apollo science!
« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2012, 11:34:12 AM »
I fear this is going to turn into a debate like that with the celebrated Moon Man - "How hot is it on the Moon?" "Well, what do you mean by 'it'?" Poor MM never got the point of that question.

I agree that part of it can be solved by simply giving the estimated maximum temperature of the surface, and then comparing it to the melting point of aluminum. However, the concept that the temperature of the sunlit surface is NOT the temperature that things above the surface would be exposed to is more difficult. Count Zero's explanation has the best chance of getting through, I suspect, because it doesn't require expanding one's thoughts TOO far from the terrestrial norm. Make him think of the "maximum temperature on the moon" being measured by putting a thermometer directly on the surface, under the noontime sun. Have him think of the reduced temperature exposure of objects several feet above the surface, at dawn. It might get through to him.