Author Topic: TOO MUCH EDUCATION  (Read 42643 times)

Offline sts60

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Re: TOO MUCH EDUCATION
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2012, 01:02:15 PM »
DAKDAK, I don't have time for a lengthy reply right now, but with reference to #8:
Quote from: DAKDAK
8.   YOU DON’T KNOW FOR SURE IF THE COMMAND MODULE WAS BIG ENOUGH OR IF THE ROCKETS, LIFE SUPPORT COMPUTER   SYSYTEM COMMUNICATIONS TECHNOLOGY SPACESUITS AND OTHER TOOLS NEEDED FOR A MANNED MISSION TO THE MOON WAS SUFFICIENT IN THE 1960’S ANY MORE THAN I DO!!
First, you are simply wrong.  I do this sort of thing for a living, and have for a couple of decades now.  I have worked on, tested, and operated real spacecraft, and have been all over the places where they are built and tested and launched, and I used to work for the guys who designed the Command Module.   

You, on the other hand - and I sincerely do not mean to give offense on my part - had trouble figuring out the volume of a cone.

Have you seriously considered that your "common sense" might simply be wrong?

Now, about that crack about "too much education":  I have an undergraduate degree in physics, and two masters' in engineering.  I want to know exactly why you think these things might be a handicap for someone like me, who actually works in this field.  Would it be somehow better if I was ignorant of the principles behind my work?

Quote from: DAKDAK
I hope and pray that I can convince just one other person on this earth that I am right!
Your chances are slim if you believe thing like the Moon actually shines by itself, rather than reflecting light from the Sun (and sunlight reflected from the Earth).  Because that is demonstrably and unambiguously wrong, as are most of the other things you have said on this forum.

But I will pray for you, because, well:
Quote from: Proverbs 16:18
Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.

and
Quote from: Augustine
Often a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other parts of the world, about the motions and orbits of the stars and even their sizes and distances,… and this knowledge he holds with certainty from reason and experience. It is thus offensive and disgraceful for an unbeliever to hear a Christian talk nonsense about such things, claiming that what he is saying is based in Scripture. We should do all that we can to avoid such an embarrassing situation, lest the unbeliever see only ignorance in the Christian and laugh to scorn.

Offline Not Myself

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Re: TOO MUCH EDUCATION
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2012, 01:17:32 PM »
I on the other hand dropped out of school in the 9Th grade and don't believe much of anything that  they teach in public school about space,books I have read about space or internet sites I have looked at about space.

Yes, I find quite a bit of what is posted at internet sites about space (and about many other things) to be total rubbish, and disbelieve much of it.

Common Sense tells me that the whole Apollo Story was completely made up to rob the American public of tax dollars and give us (the general public) a false sense of reality) sold to us by fancy TV lies and then reinforced by experts in the subject and I hope and pray that I can convince just one other person on this earth that I am right!

Well good luck with that, I expect there is a decent chance you will be able to convince one other person.  I'm pretty confident that I will not be that person, though.

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Offline JayUtah

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Re: TOO MUCH EDUCATION
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2012, 01:21:06 PM »
You are what is wrong with America.

I agree.  There is a growing anti-science movement in the United States, propounded chiefly by people apparently motivated by religious beliefs.  These people wrongly believe not only that they fairly represent their religion, but that they represent a fresh and rational basis for government.  They govern (or propose to do so) primarily on the basis of ancient superstition, and upon wrong-headed attribution of their beliefs (and the supposed uncontestability of them) to the doctors and deities of their religions, inventing things that those agents never said or never did.  They confuse their social engineering agenda with the tenets of their faith.

Fundamentalists make horrible scientists, and even worse Christians.  American Fundamentalist Christianity is only a very small, noisy, and irritating drop in the bucket of Christian belief.  And it has nothing to do with science or whether we landed on the Moon.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline JayUtah

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Re: TOO MUCH EDUCATION
« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2012, 01:31:17 PM »
Well good luck with that, I expect there is a decent chance you will be able to convince one other person.

Yahoo! Answers gets its share of Bible-thumping posters to the astronomy topics, so maybe DAKDAK should go there if he hasn't already been.  It's fun to watch them rail against "everlooshun" (which has nothing to do with astronomy, being a theory to explain speciation in complex biological organisms) and forget that the Big Bang theory in cosmology was actually proposed by a priest.  They wait until someone similarly "witnesses," awards him the 10 points for best answer, and then wait for the next orgy of self-congratulation.

I always dread the visit of my colleague's mother, who hails from Kansas and cannot pass up any opportunity to witness against the evil influences of "secular" science and its constant "war" against simple Bible truths.  Yeah, it's out there.  You don't have to travel very far to find people who truly believe mainstream science is a ruse concocted by Satan to tempt them away from faith in the Bible, and must be opposed with all zealous strength.  Praise Jeebus!  My colleague is a colleague of music, together with whom I provide music for a local Christian congregation (who appreciates traditional music and whose congregation includes many scientists and researchers from the nearby University of Utah).  It is possible to believe in both Jesus and protons, the Bible and gravity.  It only takes a common-sense approach to the Bible.  ;)
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline Not Myself

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Re: TOO MUCH EDUCATION
« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2012, 01:40:58 PM »
Yahoo! Answers gets its share of Bible-thumping posters to the astronomy topics, so maybe DAKDAK should go there if he hasn't already been.

Yes, if the goal is to convert people, I'm not sure this is the most fertile field for recruits.

It's fun to watch them rail against "everlooshun" (which has nothing to do with astronomy, being a theory to explain speciation in complex biological organisms)

Yikes, I couldn't even tell what "everlooshun" was until reading the description!  Clearly, the whole "Too much education" idea has its adherents!

and forget that the Big Bang theory in cosmology was actually proposed by a priest.

If I am not much mistaken, the early pioneer of genetics was also a priest.

I always dread the visit of my colleague's mother, who hails from Kansas and cannot pass up any opportunity to witness against the evil influences of "secular" science and its constant "war" against simple Bible truths.  Yeah, it's out there.  You don't have to travel very far to find people who truly believe mainstream science is a ruse concocted by Satan to tempt them away from faith in the Bible, and must be opposed with all zealous strength.  Praise Jeebus!  My colleague is a colleague of music, together with whom I provide music for a local Christian congregation (who appreciates traditional music and whose congregation includes many scientists and researchers from the nearby University of Utah).  It is possible to believe in both Jesus and protons, the Bible and gravity.  It only takes a common-sense approach to the Bible.  ;)

Come to Asia, life is better here!  We have lots of Christians, but not the goofy sort.
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Offline Chew

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Re: TOO MUCH EDUCATION
« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2012, 01:45:42 PM »
I on the other hand dropped out of school in the 9Th grade

I dropped out in the 11th grade and have no formal education in science or engineering so according to your criterion my common sense is just as accurate as yours. My common sense tells me the Apollo project was not hoaxed.

Offline gillianren

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Re: TOO MUCH EDUCATION
« Reply #21 on: May 16, 2012, 01:56:33 PM »
I, too, was thinking of that Augustine quote.  I do quite often, usually after someone's attempt to convert me involves throwing out everything I've ever learned about science and history.  Sad, really; the Church I left has a lot of problems, but at least it has the good sense to accept the Bible as metaphor.

In all seriousness, though, what's wrong with learning things out of books?  As a historian (okay, a decidedly amateur one), I all but have to.  But the only problem comes if you assume that I'm just blindly accepting what's in the book as true--like, say, if I were taking the Bible literally!--instead of really thinking about what's there.  Comparing what various books say.  Applying a little understanding of human nature.  And so forth.  No, I'm going to stand up for book-learning, though of course practical knowledge is also important.
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Offline Laurel

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Re: TOO MUCH EDUCATION
« Reply #22 on: May 16, 2012, 01:57:02 PM »
It is possible to believe in both Jesus and protons, the Bible and gravity.
The people who were involved in Apollo are proof of this statement, I think. The Apollo 8 Christmas Eve broadcast with the Genesis reading, Buzz Aldrin's Communion on Apollo 11, Stuart Roosa listening to hymns during Apollo 14, Dave Scott leaving a Bible on the LRV, James Irwin and Charlie Duke getting involved with Christian ministry after their Apollo days, Gene Kranz mentioning in his book that he always said a prayer for the crew during the re-entry blackout... you get the idea.
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Offline theteacher

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Re: TOO MUCH EDUCATION
« Reply #23 on: May 16, 2012, 02:13:52 PM »

Offline Echnaton

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Re: TOO MUCH EDUCATION
« Reply #24 on: May 16, 2012, 02:18:15 PM »
If I am not much mistaken, the early pioneer of genetics was also a priest.

Gregor Mendel was a Catholic Friar whose education was to some degree influenced by the writings of Augustine of Hippo, because at a minimum, practically everything within Catholicism is heavily influenced by Augustine.  Fundamentalist reject Catholic teachings.  Some regard Catholics as something akin to "lost" Christians while others seem to feel Catholics are not Christians at all.  In my experience, even fundies that accept Catholics individually are still suspicions about the Catholic Church.
The sun shone, having no alternative, on the nothing new. —Samuel Beckett

Offline JayUtah

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Re: TOO MUCH EDUCATION
« Reply #25 on: May 16, 2012, 02:22:20 PM »
In all seriousness, though, what's wrong with learning things out of books?

Nothing.  My part of the United States was founded by Mormon settlers.  Despite their clear religious motives, one of the first things they did was set up schools and universities in which they taught the same things as you'd learn in the great universities of the East.  I was privileged to attend and teach at the university actually founded by Brigham Young (not the one merely named after him).  These conservative religious types were told to "seek learning from the best books," and otherwise not to fear secular education.

There is nothing in Christianity that forbids or discourages education.  That sentiment arises only out of the very narrow brand of American Fundamentalism, and only because their literal approach to religious belief is so soundly contradicted in many cases by observations in science that they have to lump it in with the Devil.  This spills over then into social and political circles, where education is interpreted as an attempt by social liberals to undermine the Fundamentalist's view (which is the social conservative's view) of the Good Life.

What we're dealing with here is really a tricorn argument.  We have secular learning and expertise, out of which arises mainstream science and engineering, thence the Apollo missions.  We have religion, in this case American Fundamentalism in all its superstitious glory, eschewing even its traditional Christian roots.  And then we have common sense, which is not necessarily the enemy of science but is clearly the enemy of fundamentalist religious beliefs.  If one's belief comes from Fundamentalism, then common sense will certainly not save it from absurdity.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline JayUtah

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Re: TOO MUCH EDUCATION
« Reply #26 on: May 16, 2012, 02:26:20 PM »
Yes, if the goal is to convert people, I'm not sure this is the most fertile field for recruits.
Indeed, but "witnessing to the heathens" has value in that culture, like "counting coup."  They know they won't convert anyone, but activities that amount in their minds to facing up to the opposition give them brownie points.  When he goes back to his congregation this Sunday and tells them of his exploits here, he'll be praised for it.

Quote
Yikes, I couldn't even tell what "everlooshun" was until reading the description!
"Evolution" as pronounced in the accent of the American South, where Fundamentalism is most prevalent.

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Offline RAF

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Re: TOO MUCH EDUCATION
« Reply #27 on: May 16, 2012, 03:06:47 PM »
I am truly not trying to offend anybody, but just for fun...

No...you are offending every rational poster here...and NO, it's not "fun" listening to your ignorant lies re. the space program.


Quote
That's right I don't believe for one second in EVOLUTION.

Well, that's to be expected from a 9th grade dropout...ignorance....don't have a clue why you are "bragging" about it.

Offline Valis

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Re: TOO MUCH EDUCATION
« Reply #28 on: May 16, 2012, 03:44:45 PM »
I am truly not trying to offend anybody
And then you proceed to offend all of us who practice science as our profession.
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2.   YOU DON’T KNOW WHAT THE SURFACE OF THE MOON LOOKS LIKE.
Doesn't your telescope give you an idea?
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3.   YOU DON’T KNOW WHAT THE TEMPATURE OF THE MOON IS,OR IF THE MOON REFLECTS OR EMMITS LIGHT
Phases of the moon should get you going for the latter part, a bit of thermodynamics studies would help in the temperature determination
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4.   YOU HAVE NEVER MEASURED THE DISTANCE BETWEEN THE EARTH AND THE MOON.
You can do this yourself quite easily. All you need is a lunar eclipse and some geometry.
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5.   YOU HAVE NEVER MEASURED THE SPEED OF LIGHT
As you profess to having a telescope, use it to observe Jupiter's moons over the period of a year. That was how the first estimates of the speed of light were done, and with a little patience and careful observation, you can do it too.
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OR RETESTED ANY OF EINSTEINS “LAWS OF PHYSIC’S”OR NEWTONS “LAWS OF GRAVITY”
I'm a physicist. I've tested and taught how to test Newton's laws with pendulums, springs, and so on. I've also used and taught how to test Einstein's special relativity and photoelectric effect.

Science done by dogma fails. The basic tenet of science is to do your experiments, and not directly trust any source without verification. Your process is the opposite: You state how things must be, and either reject any data contradicting your preconceptions, or try to twist the data match them. You'll get nowhere that way, as has happened with creationism and intelligent design.

Offline BazBear

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Re: TOO MUCH EDUCATION
« Reply #29 on: May 16, 2012, 03:57:50 PM »
Has any one on this seemingly highly educated site ever thought that just maybe you have been educated so well that you might have forgotten about Common Sense. I am truly not trying to offend anybody, but just for fun pause your textbook rapid (canned) excellent replies to us or should I say my crazy stupid ignorant HOAX THEORIES and consider a few things.
..............................
I on the other hand dropped out of school in the 9Th grade and don't believe much of anything that  they teach in public school about space,books I have read about space or internet sites I have looked at about space. I am simply going by observations I have made with my own eyes or through a telescope on my roof and Common Sense.
Common Sense tells me that the whole Apollo Story was completely made up to rob the American public of tax dollars and give us (the general public) a false sense of reality) sold to us by fancy TV lies and then reinforced by experts in the subject and I hope and pray that I can convince just one other person on this earth that I am right!
You probably noticed that I said PRAY. That's right I don't believe for one second in EVOLUTION I do believe God created the Heavens and the Earth and the MOON!
So I guess you didn't come here to learn, and frankly I'm not surprised. If you want to try understand the world through the prism of what you call "common sense", and books written by superstitious men a couple of thousand years ago, have at it. It's your loss, not ours. But please don't use your arguments from ignorance to try to tell us that things that we know to be facts are bogus.

Some very smart and educated people (several with real world, hands on experience in relevant fields) have tried to help educate you and correct your misconceptions. Sadly, they've wasted their time. You've wasted your time as well, as no one here is going to buy your nonsense, no matter how long and loud you shout from atop your soapbox.
"It's true you know. In space, no one can hear you scream like a little girl." - Mark Watney, protagonist of The Martian by Andy Weir

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