Author Topic: Response from Dr. Odenwald regarding VAB electron energy  (Read 8165 times)

Offline Bob B.

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Response from Dr. Odenwald regarding VAB electron energy
« on: October 22, 2014, 04:49:07 PM »
I got an almost immediate response back from Dr. Odenwald after sending an email to his corrected address.  Here is what he said:

Quote from: Dr. Sten Odenwald
Dear Mr. Braeunig,
 
These pages are over 14 years old, and will be taken down very soon because there is no longer anyone around to maintain them.
 
It is unfortunate that the errors you cite made their way onto these pages. The physics of the outer VAB are well understood in terms of their energy distributions for the electrons and proton components.  The Apollo missions did indeed traverse the outer edge of the VAB in the azimuthal direction, in other words at a large enough angle to the equatorial plane that they avoided most of the radiation exposure. I don't think we disagree on that point, but the writing could have explained this a bit better.
 
Removing these pages and the IMAGE/POETRY website should cure the immediate problem.
 
Thanks again for bringing this to my attention!
 
 
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
Dr. Sten Odenwald
Director of STEM Resource Development
National Institute of Aerospace
Hampton, VA
and
Heliophysics Division
Code 672.4
Goddard Spaceflight Center
Greenbelt, MD


Dr. Odenwald clearly acknowledges the errors in the NASA web site and agrees with my corrections.  Since he references my letter, it is necessary to see what I wrote to fully understand the context of Dr. Odenwald's comments.

Quote from: Robert A. Braeunig
Dear Dr. Odenwald,
 
I am writing to you about a couple NASA public outreach articles that you apparently authored.
 
http://image.gsfc.nasa.gov/poetry/tour/AAvan.html
and
http://image.gsfc.nasa.gov/poetry/tour/vanallen.html
 
I hope to obtain a correction for what I believe to be an error.  In the description for the “high-energy electron belt” it is stated that the electrons “carry between 10 to 100 million volts of energy, or average.”  Clearly the correct unit for particle energy is electrons-volts, but that error is not my primary concern.  I am principally interested in the energy range, i.e. 10-100 MeV.  No other source that I’ve found cites energies in that range.  For instance, the AE-8 radiation belt model gives integral fluxes from ≥0.1 MeV to ≥7 MeV.  Based on my research, I believe the correct energy range for the outer electron belts is about 0.1 to 10 MeV (and 0.1 to 5 MeV for the inner belt).  I can find no substantiation for the 100 MeV number.
 
There are a couple reasons that this issue is of concern to me.  First, the incorrect information has begun to spread to other web sites, such as following:
 
http://www.maarble.eu/outreach/index.php/basic-information  (see section titled “Radiation Belts and Trapped Particles”)
 
Second, the exaggerated energy range has begun to be seized upon by conspiracy theorists.  You and I both know that the moon landing hoax theories are ridiculous, but it doesn’t help our argument to have incorrect data appearing on a NASA web site.  If you can confirm to me in writing that the 10-100 MeV range is incorrect, it would help to bring to an end the ongoing debate.  It would be doubly beneficial if the NASA web page could be corrected (if you have the power to make that happen).
 
One other thing that I’d like to comment on is the following sentence from your article, “Apollo astronauts, however, were forced to traverse the most intense regions of the Belts in their journey to the Moon.”   Please note that the inclined orbits used by Apollo allowed them to bypass the most intense regions, instead passing through the less dangerous outer edges of the belts.  The following is an article I’ve written that specifically addresses this topic.
 
http://www.braeunig.us/apollo/apollo11-TLI.htm
 
Thank you for your time and consideration.  I hope to hear from you so we can set the record straight on this issue.
 
Sincerely,
 
Robert A. Braeunig

Offline ka9q

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Re: Response from Dr. Odenwald regarding VAB electron energy
« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2014, 05:02:25 PM »
Obviously, someone "got" to Dr. Odenwald, and now he's belatedly a "team player"...

Or that's what we'll soon hear. Sigh.


Offline JayUtah

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Re: Response from Dr. Odenwald regarding VAB electron energy
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2014, 05:30:27 PM »
I think it's great that these various authorities are paying attention to errata on web sites, but heavens-to-Cthulhu, I wish we didn't have to bother them.

When I fact-checked Jarrah's NOAA contact, the guy was noticeably annoyed.  Not just at Jarrah, but also at me.  The undertone I got was, "Oh great, what have I been dragged into now?"  When I asked him if he was aware of what Jarrah had done with his statements, he pretty much said he didn't want anything to do with it.  And I don't blame him.  Contrary to the egotistical beliefs of conspiracy theorists, most real scientists etc. don't sit around thinking of the various cockamamie ways their work can be taken out of context, or of what "damage control" will need to be done.  Conspiracy theorists fly so far under most of these guys' radar; it's almost insulting to talk to them about it even if it's to set the record straight.  Defending real science against woo is not necessarily what got these guys interested in their professions anyway.

And further, the real world doesn't consider web sites necessarily the be-all and end-all of knowledge.  The real world still very much uses actual libraries and actual printed manuals, handbooks, and findings -- some of which are, for example, proprietary.  If someone says you have an error on your web site, the response is likely to be, "Eh, so what, no one should be relying on that anyway."  Yes, they'll be happy to receive the correction (free proofreading is not a bad thing), but the notion that there's some nefarious force changing information on the web is pretty laughable in a world where the web is still an emphemeral source.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline Luke Pemberton

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Re: Response from Dr. Odenwald regarding VAB electron energy
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2014, 09:16:12 PM »
Obviously, someone "got" to Dr. Odenwald, and now he's belatedly a "team player"...

Obviously.
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former - Albert Einstein.

I can calculate the motion of heavenly bodies, but not the madness of people – Sir Isaac Newton.

A polar orbit would also bypass the SAA - Tim Finch

Offline Luke Pemberton

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Re: Response from Dr. Odenwald regarding VAB electron energy
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2014, 10:12:01 PM »
Well done Bob, and thanks for taking the time and effort to bring this error to the attention of Dr. Odenwald. Clearly the undertone of Dr Odenwald's reply is that he does not doubt the authenticity of the Apollo missions.  I see that as end game for Jarrah who for years has been asked to confirm with those people he quotes whether they believe Apollo was a hoax. To think he accused you of intellectual cowardice too (YT thread). I believe that the phrase is straight from the horse's mouth.

The most recent research I have read on the subject was data gathered from the SREM unit on PROBA-1, and that research clearly illustrated that the electron energies that Jarrah has seized upon are clearly in error. Ironically the PROBA-1 research was brought to my attention when Adrian posted a link to the data on his old YouTube channel.

Stupid as...
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former - Albert Einstein.

I can calculate the motion of heavenly bodies, but not the madness of people – Sir Isaac Newton.

A polar orbit would also bypass the SAA - Tim Finch

Offline Luke Pemberton

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Re: Response from Dr. Odenwald regarding VAB electron energy
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2014, 10:26:44 PM »
I think it's great that these various authorities are paying attention to errata on web sites, but heavens-to-Cthulhu, I wish we didn't have to bother them.

Quite, and for many reasons.

Quote
Contrary to the egotistical beliefs of conspiracy theorists, most real scientists etc. don't sit around thinking of the various cockamamie ways their work can be taken out of context, or of what "damage control" will need to be done.

They're far too busy networking, collaborating, lecturing, running research departments, speaking at conferences, planning, completing research proposals, filling in expenses claims, mentoring, flying around the world, sitting in airport lounges, writing papers, reviewing papers... add to the list as you wish.

Quote
Defending real science against woo is not necessarily what got these guys interested in their professions anyway.

I can't imagine my old professor setting the record straight with conspiracy theorists.

Quote
...but the notion that there's some nefarious force changing information on the web is pretty laughable in a world where the web is still an emphemeral source.

Videos made in your mum's front room while sat in a wicker chair trying to look professorial are at the very bottom of the pile when I consider reference sources. I much preferred Physical Review B and Physical Review Letters.

I think it really is time for Jarrah to publish his work and have it reviewed. He'll go the same way as Ralph Rene though, there will be no response as his woo science won't register with real experts.
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former - Albert Einstein.

I can calculate the motion of heavenly bodies, but not the madness of people – Sir Isaac Newton.

A polar orbit would also bypass the SAA - Tim Finch

Offline Bob B.

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Re: Response from Dr. Odenwald regarding VAB electron energy
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2014, 11:09:51 PM »
Clearly the undertone of Dr Odenwald's reply is that he does not doubt the authenticity of the Apollo missions.

Indeed.  Dr. Odenwald even says so in the very same article that contains the 10-100 MeV error...

Quote
Apollo astronauts, however, were forced to traverse the most intense regions of the Belts in their journey to the Moon. Fortunately, the travel time was only about 30 minutes so their actual radiation exposures inside the Apollo space capsule were not much more than the total dose received by Space Shuttle astronauts.

This fact counters some popular speculations that the moon landings were a hoax because astronauts would have instantly died as they made the travel through the belts. In reality, they may have experienced minor radiation poisoning if they had been in their spacesuits on a spacewalk, but no spacewalk was ever scheduled for these very reasons. The shielding provided by the Apollo space capsule walls was more than enough to shield the astronauts from all but the most energetic, and rare, particles.


Offline AstroBrant

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Re: Response from Dr. Odenwald regarding VAB electron energy
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2014, 11:39:11 PM »
Nice work, Bob. Now we have a lovely pair of refutation bookends here to jam Wunder-Blunder's "radioactive anomaly" garbage between.
May your skies be clear and your thinking even clearer.
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Offline AstroBrant

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Re: Response from Dr. Odenwald regarding VAB electron energy
« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2014, 12:21:43 AM »
I think it's great that these various authorities are paying attention to errata on web sites, but heavens-to-Cthulhu, I wish we didn't have to bother them.

When I fact-checked Jarrah's NOAA contact, the guy was noticeably annoyed.  Not just at Jarrah, but also at me.  The undertone I got was, "Oh great, what have I been dragged into now?"  When I asked him if he was aware of what Jarrah had done with his statements, he pretty much said he didn't want anything to do with it.  And I don't blame him.  Contrary to the egotistical beliefs of conspiracy theorists, most real scientists etc. don't sit around thinking of the various cockamamie ways their work can be taken out of context, or of what "damage control" will need to be done.  Conspiracy theorists fly so far under most of these guys' radar; it's almost insulting to talk to them about it even if it's to set the record straight.  Defending real science against woo is not necessarily what got these guys interested in their professions anyway.

And further, the real world doesn't consider web sites necessarily the be-all and end-all of knowledge.  The real world still very much uses actual libraries and actual printed manuals, handbooks, and findings -- some of which are, for example, proprietary.  If someone says you have an error on your web site, the response is likely to be, "Eh, so what, no one should be relying on that anyway."  Yes, they'll be happy to receive the correction (free proofreading is not a bad thing), but the notion that there's some nefarious force changing information on the web is pretty laughable in a world where the web is still an emphemeral source.

Jay, I can appreciate where they're coming from. For you and any of the rest of us who may find ourselves in a similar situation in the future, it might be good to solicit their support with something they care as much about as much as we do, regardless of their lofty milieu: education. While their work is intended for their own peers, they are certain to appreciate the possibility of it being quotemined and misrepresented by conspiracy theorists who pollute the Internet with it and, in turn, corrupt young minds. I would suggest making such inquiries on behalf of the next generation of potential academicians rather than just to discredit conspiracy theorists or generally "set the record straight".

It should also be mentioned that such quotemining is not as trivial or localized as they may at first perceive. They need to be made aware that this nonsense spreads among laymen on the Internet like a new infectious disease, and it can endure there for decades. Those laymen are often juveniles and most of the adults are probably parents. A scholar's attitude may be that the people who "matter" will understand. We need to encourage them to see how the sheer numbers of laymen who get the twisted misinformation matter, too. Good examples of highly respected scholars who recognize this in areas related to this topic are Carl Sagan, Brian Cox, and Neil Tyson.

Another area where science has been under attack for many years is creationism vs evolution. Stalwarts in that field who recognize the importance of what the layman hears are Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Stephen J. Gould, and again, Carl Sagan.

I'm reminded of the line from the movie, Gladiator, by Senator Gracchus, (portrayed by Derek Jacobi),
"I don't claim to be a man of the people, but I am a man for the people."

Our cloistered academic elite need to think more like that, sometimes.
May your skies be clear and your thinking even clearer.
(Youtube: astrobrant2)

Offline HeadLikeARock

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Re: Response from Dr. Odenwald regarding VAB electron energy
« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2014, 01:47:33 PM »
Received a reply back from Dr Odenwald (initially contacted him a couple of weeks before Bob did, using an email he obviously doesn't have regular access to).

Not much to add, other than to say:-

Quote
I didn't want to be 'nailed down' to a specific number because it was written for middle school students...not adults. I used' volt' rather than electron-volt to simplify the jargon.
 
I have since asked the website folks to take down this particular page on the IMAGE/POETRY site.


Offline Luke Pemberton

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Re: Response from Dr. Odenwald regarding VAB electron energy
« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2014, 03:08:24 PM »
Received a reply back from Dr Odenwald (initially contacted him a couple of weeks before Bob did, using an email he obviously doesn't have regular access to).

Not much to add, other than to say:-

Quote
I didn't want to be 'nailed down' to a specific number because it was written for middle school students...not adults. I used' volt' rather than electron-volt to simplify the jargon.
 
I have since asked the website folks to take down this particular page on the IMAGE/POETRY site.

Good work HLAR. My views on this are quite straightforward now. Jarrah should review the reviewed literature, just like any serious researcher would. Citing web pages is not credible in context of his assumed position. If he demands credibility then he should behave in a credible manner. He would find his answer straight away, and it won't be the one he is looking for.

He might like to ask all the authors he cites if they Apollo believe was hoaxed. He would find his answer straight away, and it won't be the one he is looking for.
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former - Albert Einstein.

I can calculate the motion of heavenly bodies, but not the madness of people – Sir Isaac Newton.

A polar orbit would also bypass the SAA - Tim Finch

Offline HeadLikeARock

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Re: Response from Dr. Odenwald regarding VAB electron energy
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2014, 04:39:18 PM »
Looks as if the page with the incorrect data has been taken down.

http://image.gsfc.nasa.gov/poetry/tour/AAvan.html

Offline AstroBrant

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Re: Response from Dr. Odenwald regarding VAB electron energy
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2014, 11:19:59 PM »
Looks as if the page with the incorrect data has been taken down.

http://image.gsfc.nasa.gov/poetry/tour/AAvan.html

Thanks for the update. Wunder Blunder will no doubt get his knickers in a twist over the removal of two erroneous sources he was so proud of having cherry-picked from the mountains of data which utterly contradict his position. But knowing his personality, he will try to get mileage out of playing the conspiracy/persecution card.
May your skies be clear and your thinking even clearer.
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