Author Topic: When will the loons start to claim that Chang’e 3 is a hoax?  (Read 15408 times)

Online Zakalwe

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When will the loons start to claim that Chang’e 3 is a hoax?
« on: October 17, 2013, 05:29:38 AM »
http://www.space.com/23202-china-moon-rover-december-launch.html

Finally, it looks like someone else is going to soft land on the Moon. I wonder when the woo-woo brigade will start to call "HOAX"?
"The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.' " - Isaac Asimov

Offline ka9q

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Re: When will the loons start to claim that Chang’e 3 is a hoax?
« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2013, 05:33:28 AM »
Pretty soon, I bet. The obvious resemblance to the Apollo LM will certainly not go unnoticed.

Online Zakalwe

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Re: When will the loons start to claim that Chang’e 3 is a hoax?
« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2013, 06:15:00 AM »
It's obviously a fake...it's made of tinfoil!

 ::)
"The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.' " - Isaac Asimov

Offline Daggerstab

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Re: When will the loons start to claim that Chang’e 3 is a hoax?
« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2013, 07:51:36 AM »
Given previous experience, before it even leaves the ground. Depending on the particular CTs to which particular conspiracists subscribe, charges of "the data will be faked" may will appear as soon as they become aware of it. Expect it to become more widespread if skeptics start using it to debunk Apollo stuff.

Offline Tedward

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Re: When will the loons start to claim that Chang’e 3 is a hoax?
« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2013, 12:42:02 PM »
Everyone knows that without the right documents, it cannot get through the Van Allen belts.

Offline theteacher

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Re: When will the loons start to claim that Chang’e 3 is a hoax?
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2013, 02:46:08 PM »
Everyone knows that without the right documents, it cannot get through the Van Allen belts.
;D

Offline Noldi400

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Re: When will the loons start to claim that Chang’e 3 is a hoax?
« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2013, 01:25:36 AM »
I'm just wondering... have any of the HB crowd ever come up with a design of what a lunar lander should look like?  Most of them still seem to be stuck on the old von Braun giant surface-to-surface rocket.

I don't think I've ever seen any of them attempt it, but it sure would be fun picking it apart. Of course, any flaws we pointed out would be taken as evidence that lunar landings are obviously impossible.
"The sane understand that human beings are incapable of sustaining conspiracies on a grand scale, because some of our most defining qualities as a species are... a tendency to panic, and an inability to keep our mouths shut." - Dean Koontz

Online Zakalwe

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Re: When will the loons start to claim that Chang’e 3 is a hoax?
« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2013, 04:09:40 AM »
I'm just wondering... have any of the HB crowd ever come up with a design of what a lunar lander should look like?  Most of them still seem to be stuck on the old von Braun giant surface-to-surface rocket.

I don't think I've ever seen any of them attempt it, but it sure would be fun picking it apart. Of course, any flaws we pointed out would be taken as evidence that lunar landings are obviously impossible.

I doubt it. The modus operandi for the majority of HBs that I've come across is to try and pick holes in the evidence (normally based on supposition and errors). They never offer an alternative, probably because to do so would require solid knowledge. If they had solid knowledge, then they'd be able to debunk their own hoax hypothesis.
The exception to this was Patrick Tekeli. Yes he was wildly off the mark, but he appeared to have read and digested a lot of the archives.
"The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.' " - Isaac Asimov

Offline twik

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Re: When will the loons start to claim that Chang’e 3 is a hoax?
« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2013, 09:56:51 AM »
I'll give Patrick credit for actually doing original work, rather magnificent in its own unique weirdness. Also, he was willing to try to defend it. Much more invigorating to debate than the typical "it was HOACKS, see this youtube video proves it" seagull poster.

It seems that the CT community has now "matured" (so to speak) into accepting the "Everything's a Hoax" theory. Absolutely *nothing* is as it seems, and this can be assumed without even looking at the evidence first. We are all living in our own Truman Show.

Offline ka9q

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Re: When will the loons start to claim that Chang’e 3 is a hoax?
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2013, 05:03:37 PM »
I'm just wondering... have any of the HB crowd ever come up with a design of what a lunar lander should look like?
Without any infrastructure it's really hard to come up with anything that doesn't look a lot like the Apollo LM (or the Russian LK).

I have thought a bit about how a lander would look if we pursued the goal of reusing it for more than one landing. It could only have a single stage, and it would have to be refueled on the lunar surface, in lunar orbit, or in both places.

I've long thought that our emphasis on reusable launchers was misplaced, though I think SpaceX has as good a chance of anybody of finally making that idea economically practical. Much of the cost of an Apollo mission came from throwing away a perfectly good LM after each landing just because the tanks were empty. We need to figure out how to refuel these spacecraft with propellants made somewhere other than the bottom of the earth's gravity well.

Online Zakalwe

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Re: When will the loons start to claim that Chang’e 3 is a hoax?
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2013, 02:36:40 AM »
I've long thought that our emphasis on reusable launchers was misplaced, though I think SpaceX has as good a chance of anybody of finally making that idea economically practical. Much of the cost of an Apollo mission came from throwing away a perfectly good LM after each landing just because the tanks were empty. We need to figure out how to refuel these spacecraft with propellants made somewhere other than the bottom of the earth's gravity well.

The engine bell had an ablative surface instead of being actively cooled by the fuel. So the engine would need to be changed, as well as allowing refuelling. And there's the rub...doing all of that increased the weight, which increases the fuel load needed to get it off the ground in the first place. Which means that you need a bigger booster....
Expensive as it was, it was probably cheaper to implement a "throw-away" policy. Certainly to hit Kennedy's timescale the designers had no other choice. It had to be as simple and as light as possible otherwise they'd never have done in within the decade.
Fast. Cheap. Safe. Pick any two, but you can't have all three. A fast, cheap program won't be safe. A safe, cheap program won't be cheap. And so on.
"The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.' " - Isaac Asimov

Offline ka9q

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Re: When will the loons start to claim that Chang’e 3 is a hoax?
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2013, 03:12:23 AM »
So the engine would need to be changed, as well as allowing refuelling.
Well...yes, though a different engine design could be used.

And the batteries would have to be recharged (or, more likely, solar panels added) and the O2 and water tanks refilled, etc, etc.
Quote
Expensive as it was, it was probably cheaper to implement a "throw-away" policy. Certainly to hit Kennedy's timescale the designers had no other choice. It had to be as simple and as light as possible otherwise they'd never have done in within the decade.
Oh, no question. But that design philosophy had already become a problem even before the Apollo program was over, considering the work required to modify the LM to support the 3-day stays of the J-missions.

Offline Bob B.

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Re: When will the loons start to claim that Chang’e 3 is a hoax?
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2013, 09:56:05 AM »
If we were to have a reusable LM, I see no reason it's initial launch would have to be part of a crewed mission.  Launching it separately would remove some of the weight restrictions and allow for a bigger and more capable LM to be built.  And the cost of the extra launch would be offset by the reusability factor.

Online Zakalwe

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Re: When will the loons start to claim that Chang’e 3 is a hoax?
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2013, 11:55:53 AM »
Well, they've successfully landed on the Moon, and congratulations to the Chinese space effort.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-25356603


I shall now sit back and wait for the loons to declare it a fake. I wonder will Vincent McConnell pop up again? He seemed to have a particular flea up his ass about the Chinese efforts...
"The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.' " - Isaac Asimov

Offline Chew

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Re: When will the loons start to claim that Chang’e 3 is a hoax?
« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2013, 12:07:35 AM »
I've already seen one "there are no stars" comment.