Author Topic: Bad Driving  (Read 250 times)

Offline BDL

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Bad Driving
« on: September 20, 2018, 10:18:24 PM »
I've recently been confronted with this photograph which as been proposed as evidence of a hoax. Of course, I know it's barely evidence of anything at all since driving inside the crater doesn't imply anything other than the fact that they drove inside a crater. But I'm not too sure how to answer, and I'm not sure why the astronauts drove inside the crater. I wonder - had anything been said about this picture anywhere? This accusation is originally from Aulis by Jack White, where he claims that either the astronauts were terrible drivers or this scene was deliberately made by "whistleblowers" to look suspicious. Obviously I'm not too concerned with the possibility of a conspiracy as there's a 0% of a hoax, but I'm rather curious as to why the astronauts had driven inside the crater and some HBs won't leave me alone without answering them.
Here's the photo:
http://www.aulis.com/jackimages/15bigpothole.jpg
“One small step for a man, one giant leap for mankind.” - Neil Armstrong, 1969

Offline Allan F

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Re: Bad Driving
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2018, 12:03:13 AM »
Probably to test the LRV. It was designed to be stable up to a sideways tilt of 45 degrees. And they were just inside the crater with one set of wheels. Not the whole vehicle.
Well, it is like this: The truth doesn't need insults. Insults are the refuge of a darkened mind, a mind that refuses to open and see. Foul language can't outcompete knowledge. And knowledge is the result of education. Education is the result of the wish to know more, not less.

Offline Obviousman

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Re: Bad Driving
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2018, 02:57:20 AM »
I addressed this years ago on the EF site; Aulis just trot out his claims again and again, ignoring anything that proves them wrong.

Offline onebigmonkey

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Re: Bad Driving
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2018, 04:21:30 AM »
As they were heading to station 2 they were driving uphill quite slowly and were more focused on the large rock they had spotted that they wanted to sample and photograph. The shadows make the crater look more dramatic than it is, and there is another image of it that makes it seem less severe

https://www.flickr.com/photos/projectapolloarchive/21880757528/in/album-72157659682073775/

A crater ahead of the rover is much bigger and they make a comment about it, but make absolutely no reference to the one they drove through. It's also worth noting that they have deliberately exaggerated the path it took, for example making it look as though it bounced over the ground on the other side of the crater, when what they've drawn through is astronaut footprints disturbing the dirt.

What the HBs need to do is demonstrate that this small hole was in some way impossible to drive through. They will not.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2018, 05:03:29 AM by onebigmonkey »

Offline onebigmonkey

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Re: Bad Driving
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2018, 08:26:16 AM »
I had a poke around on the LRO site and found a high resolution image of the station 2 area. A bit of processing reveals some rover tracks ending at a couple of likely looking small craters.



The circle highlights an area of discoloured ground that looks to correspond with the area they were trampling to sample the boulder.

Happy for anyone else to say that the location is somewhere else, but HBs again need to account for rover tracks and disturbed ground in the raw image.

Offline bknight

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Re: Bad Driving
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2018, 09:37:23 AM »
Again this is more of the same I don't understand; therefore it is fake BS.
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
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Offline Count Zero

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Re: Bad Driving
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2018, 10:03:53 AM »
They probably drove into the crater because they did not see it.  Looking at the shadow angle and the direction of the tracks, they approached the crater from directly up-sun.  Between the zero-phase angle for the sun and the retro-reflective nature of the lunar regolith (heiligenschein), I seriously doubt he had any idea the crater was there before he hit it.  It is entirely possible that he stopped right there because the jolt gave him a 'whoa, enough of that' moment.
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Offline BDL

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Re: Bad Driving
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2018, 12:00:25 PM »
Thanks for the answers and research, y’all.
I think the HBs’ alternative explanation has a flaw:
If you want to act as a whistleblower and expose some kind of conspiracy, then simply driving in craters is not going to expose anything. It’s just going to suggest that astronauts drove inside a crater. No ordinary person is going to look at this picture and actually believe it’s suspicious.

I think if you wanted an actual “suspicious” scene you’d want something like broken physics. Or small unexplained objects in the background. Or anything at all. Not a simple driven inside a small crater.
“One small step for a man, one giant leap for mankind.” - Neil Armstrong, 1969

Offline BDL

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Re: Bad Driving
« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2018, 12:32:29 AM »
I went digging around on the Internet and it seems that Evan Burton, whom I believe to be a photographer, has been able to debunk this a while ago. In fact, he debunks all of Jack White’s claims.
Here: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/5911-jack-whites-aulis-apollo-hoax-investigation-a-rebuttal/?page=7

In page 7 which I linked above Evan Burton addresses Jack White’s moonbuggy claims in detail.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2018, 12:38:07 AM by BDL »
“One small step for a man, one giant leap for mankind.” - Neil Armstrong, 1969

Offline bknight

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Re: Bad Driving
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2018, 10:21:16 AM »
I went digging around on the Internet and it seems that Evan Burton, whom I believe to be a photographer, has been able to debunk this a while ago. In fact, he debunks all of Jack White’s claims.
Here: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/5911-jack-whites-aulis-apollo-hoax-investigation-a-rebuttal/?page=7

In page 7 which I linked above Evan Burton addresses Jack White’s moonbuggy claims in detail.

Evan debunked a lot of the HB's beliefs in the EF.  It was fun reading the threads, but some were resurrected as there was a server crash that had to pieced together from other posters history.
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
Eugene Cernan

Offline Obviousman

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Re: Bad Driving
« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2018, 06:07:12 PM »
I went digging around on the Internet and it seems that Evan Burton, whom I believe to be a photographer, has been able to debunk this a while ago. In fact, he debunks all of Jack White’s claims.
Here: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/5911-jack-whites-aulis-apollo-hoax-investigation-a-rebuttal/?page=7

In page 7 which I linked above Evan Burton addresses Jack White’s moonbuggy claims in detail.

Not a photographer. Ex-Navy and now a Defence Contractor.

The photographer who occasionally popped up was Craig Lamson; he was a professional IIRC. I just knew how to research Jack's claims and show how wrong they were.

Offline Obviousman

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Re: Bad Driving
« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2018, 06:08:58 PM »
I went digging around on the Internet and it seems that Evan Burton, whom I believe to be a photographer, has been able to debunk this a while ago. In fact, he debunks all of Jack White’s claims.
Here: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/5911-jack-whites-aulis-apollo-hoax-investigation-a-rebuttal/?page=7

In page 7 which I linked above Evan Burton addresses Jack White’s moonbuggy claims in detail.

Evan debunked a lot of the HB's beliefs in the EF.  It was fun reading the threads, but some were resurrected as there was a server crash that had to pieced together from other posters history.

I still have most - if not all - of the original images used (if they are missing from the posts). Luckily the text got through, 'cause I wouldn't want to have to do that all over again.

Offline bknight

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Re: Bad Driving
« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2018, 07:39:44 PM »
I went digging around on the Internet and it seems that Evan Burton, whom I believe to be a photographer, has been able to debunk this a while ago. In fact, he debunks all of Jack White’s claims.
Here: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/5911-jack-whites-aulis-apollo-hoax-investigation-a-rebuttal/?page=7

In page 7 which I linked above Evan Burton addresses Jack White’s moonbuggy claims in detail.

Evan debunked a lot of the HB's beliefs in the EF.  It was fun reading the threads, but some were resurrected as there was a server crash that had to pieced together from other posters history.

I still have most - if not all - of the original images used (if they are missing from the posts). Luckily the text got through, 'cause I wouldn't want to have to do that all over again.

Not just JW, but the debate with Fetzer (et al)
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
Eugene Cernan