Author Topic: Ever had an HB come around?  (Read 245 times)

Offline NthBrick

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Ever had an HB come around?
« on: November 07, 2019, 07:53:12 PM »
This might not be the right forum, but this isn't really a "hoax theory" or evidence claim so I decided to submit here.

Anyway, I was thinking about the past 2.5 years that I've been involved in the moon hoax/flat earth debunking scene. I can certainly say that I've learned a lot in the process, and have tried to communicate that information to hoax believers and flat earthers. The thing is, despite doing things like posting relatively long, involved responses to YouTube hoax videos and comments by believers, I wouldn't say I've really had any impact. Maybe cleared up a thing or two for the odd person who is genuinely asking a question, but hardcore hoax believers have proven absolutely impervious to evidence, even when you show them that bigger hoax promoters (e.g., flat earthers like Eric Dubay and Jeranism, and non-flatties like Bart Sibrel) have outright lied in their attempts to discredit NASA.

My question is just whether or not anyone's seen a reasonably hardcore HB's mind be swayed and eventually realize that they were wrong.

Offline Glom

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Re: Ever had an HB come around?
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2019, 08:01:39 PM »
I don't know how hardcore is hardcore, but there have been some. The creator of this very site for one.

Offline NthBrick

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Re: Ever had an HB come around?
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2019, 08:15:34 PM »
I don't know how hardcore is hardcore, but there have been some. The creator of this very site for one.
Thanks for reminding me of that. And if he's reads this, thanks for operating this site LO, it's been really helpful.

I guess someone's "hardcore-ness" is a hard thing to quantify. An attempt at a definition might involve "ignores anything that doesn't support an a priori conclusion that the moon landings were faked", i.e. that preserving the belief is paramount.

Offline LunarOrbit

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Re: Ever had an HB come around?
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2019, 08:33:39 PM »
I don't know how hardcore is hardcore, but there have been some. The creator of this very site for one.
Thanks for reminding me of that. And if he's reads this, thanks for operating this site LO, it's been really helpful.

You're welcome, I'm happy to provide this website. Just to be clear though, I'm not the creator of the site that Glom was referring to. I kind of inherited it after the original owner decided to leave. He was a hoax believer but he did come around before leaving. I've never doubted the Apollo landings happened.
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I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth.
I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
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Offline NthBrick

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Re: Ever had an HB come around?
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2019, 10:07:56 PM »
I don't know how hardcore is hardcore, but there have been some. The creator of this very site for one.
Thanks for reminding me of that. And if he's reads this, thanks for operating this site LO, it's been really helpful.

You're welcome, I'm happy to provide this website. Just to be clear though, I'm not the creator of the site that Glom was referring to. I kind of inherited it after the original owner decided to leave. He was a hoax believer but he did come around before leaving. I've never doubted the Apollo landings happened.
Ah, well today I learned. So the whole "ApolloHoax.net" thing was pro-hoax at one point?

Speaking of learning, it's been a bit funny since I got involved in all of this how many hoax claims are just recycled garbage that was hashed out here and on the previous board years ago (or Cosmoquest or any number of other forums). You've got whole new generations growing up and running into hoax claims without knowing how they've been well done-and-dusted.

Offline Jason Thompson

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Re: Ever had an HB come around?
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2019, 08:14:48 AM »
The thing is, despite doing things like posting relatively long, involved responses to YouTube hoax videos and comments by believers, I wouldn't say I've really had any impact.

I've been doing this for about 17 years now. My advice would be to reset your definition of 'impact'. If you set your sights on the goal of converting the hardcore conspiracy theorists you are bound to fail. Why? Because the vast majority of them have not come to their position by any rational misunderstanding of the evidence or logical processes used to draw a conclusion from a given set of information. As I pointed out on JR's thread, his inability to answer the question of what evidence led him to believe the landings were faked speaks volumes about his position. Specifically, that it was absolutely NOT the result of any reasoned analysis. If it were, he would have been able to immediately answer the question as asked instead of trying to divert the conversation to speculation of who might have been involved in faking it and why they might have done it (and let's not forget his entirely wilful misrepresentation of a piece of NASA evidence to make it appear to support his claim when in reality it did precisely the opposite). This is true for nearly all, in my experience. They are not concluding the landings were faked, they are starting from that premise. That's assuming they actually hold such a belief and are not simply trolling for attention and notoriety. You can't reason someone out of an unreasonable position, especially if, for whatever reason, that premise has become so central to their identity that letting it go would cause them to melt down entirely. And even if you did, if they had been so entrenched to begin with the realisation and embarrassment may lead them to simply go off quietly and never mention it again, because for some just admitting wrongness is too much to do.

The impact of our work is harder to measure because it is less obvious, but I offer myself as an example of it. I saw the Fox special. I bought Percy's book and video. I consumed the content avidly and it raised questions in my mind about the authenticity of the landings. The idea of a conspiracy was fun and exciting. I got online and looked around for more. I found this place, I found what was then the Bad Astronomy forum, I found the excellent and informative Clavius. And they gave me information, they addressed the logical fallacies, the inconsistencies and the outright lies and prompted me to look at other publications, to find the Apollo Lunar Surface Journal, and the excellent DVD sets from Spacecraft Films. And, while I was not ill-equipped to begin with in terms of knowledge and reason, I learned. And I realised how wrong the conspiracy theories were. I turned away from the conspiracy theories because of people like you and the others here, but because I hadn't made a huge fuss about it or got into heated arguments first I would slip under the radar of anyone trying to measure impact in terms of converting HBs.

In short, don't be disheartened. The loudest voices will never be converted. The quieter ones may. And those who are just discovering it need the reasoned responses and the logical takedowns of the vocal minority HBs to counter the otherwise initially convincing rubbish spouted by them.
"There's this idea that everyone's opinion is equally valid. My arse! Bloke who was a professor of dentistry for forty years does NOT have a debate with some eejit who removes his teeth with string and a door!"  - Dara O'Briain

Offline bknight

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Re: Ever had an HB come around?
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2019, 10:27:37 AM »
The thing is, despite doing things like posting relatively long, involved responses to YouTube hoax videos and comments by believers, I wouldn't say I've really had any impact.

I've been doing this for about 17 years now. My advice would be to reset your definition of 'impact'. If you set your sights on the goal of converting the hardcore conspiracy theorists you are bound to fail. Why? Because the vast majority of them have not come to their position by any rational misunderstanding of the evidence or logical processes used to draw a conclusion from a given set of information. As I pointed out on JR's thread, his inability to answer the question of what evidence led him to believe the landings were faked speaks volumes about his position. Specifically, that it was absolutely NOT the result of any reasoned analysis. If it were, he would have been able to immediately answer the question as asked instead of trying to divert the conversation to speculation of who might have been involved in faking it and why they might have done it (and let's not forget his entirely wilful misrepresentation of a piece of NASA evidence to make it appear to support his claim when in reality it did precisely the opposite). This is true for nearly all, in my experience. They are not concluding the landings were faked, they are starting from that premise. That's assuming they actually hold such a belief and are not simply trolling for attention and notoriety. You can't reason someone out of an unreasonable position, especially if, for whatever reason, that premise has become so central to their identity that letting it go would cause them to melt down entirely. And even if you did, if they had been so entrenched to begin with the realisation and embarrassment may lead them to simply go off quietly and never mention it again, because for some just admitting wrongness is too much to do.

The impact of our work is harder to measure because it is less obvious, but I offer myself as an example of it. I saw the Fox special. I bought Percy's book and video. I consumed the content avidly and it raised questions in my mind about the authenticity of the landings. The idea of a conspiracy was fun and exciting. I got online and looked around for more. I found this place, I found what was then the Bad Astronomy forum, I found the excellent and informative Clavius. And they gave me information, they addressed the logical fallacies, the inconsistencies and the outright lies and prompted me to look at other publications, to find the Apollo Lunar Surface Journal, and the excellent DVD sets from Spacecraft Films. And, while I was not ill-equipped to begin with in terms of knowledge and reason, I learned. And I realised how wrong the conspiracy theories were. I turned away from the conspiracy theories because of people like you and the others here, but because I hadn't made a huge fuss about it or got into heated arguments first I would slip under the radar of anyone trying to measure impact in terms of converting HBs.

In short, don't be disheartened. The loudest voices will never be converted. The quieter ones may. And those who are just discovering it need the reasoned responses and the logical takedowns of the vocal minority HBs to counter the otherwise initially convincing rubbish spouted by them.

Very concise reasons as to why those HB's can't formulate their beliefs other than fantasy world narrative.  I wonder what Jay might add?
« Last Edit: November 08, 2019, 12:04:22 PM by bknight »
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Offline gillianren

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Re: Ever had an HB come around?
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2019, 10:58:50 AM »
I've never personally convinced an HB, but I have convinced one or two people about other conspiracies.  One friend was a JFK conspiracist until he realized that the person he knew who knew the most about the conspiracy angle was . . . me.  And I remained steadfast that Lee Harvey Oswald had, in all likelihood, acted alone.  (Note that the main reason I rule out Oswald's personally acting with someone who, say, gave him money for the gun or whatever while he did all the work was that Lee was a jerk who pretty much had no friends, but I maintain that's not completely invalid to consider!)  Another friend leaned toward 9/11 conspiracism, and I pointed out that jet fuel didn't have to melt steel beams and got her to really look into her assumptions there.

A point I'd make to the conspiracists, though, is that their ideas aren't as universal as they think they are.  I have a friend whose JFK conspiracism seems to come from a strong admiration of Oliver Stone (an essay of his is in a published book about Stone, and he wrote the essay before the book was compiled), and pretty much the entire rest of our film group thinks his conspiracism is funny.  It's the group in-joke about him--because no one else believes it.  And this is literally hundreds of people who disagree with him who are selected for other reasons.  It's not like people here who disagree with you; it's a bunch of film nerds.
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Offline NthBrick

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Re: Ever had an HB come around?
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2019, 09:13:00 AM »
The thing is, despite doing things like posting relatively long, involved responses to YouTube hoax videos and comments by believers, I wouldn't say I've really had any impact.

I've been doing this for about 17 years now. My advice would be to reset your definition of 'impact'. If you set your sights on the goal of converting the hardcore conspiracy theorists you are bound to fail. Why? Because the vast majority of them have not come to their position by any rational misunderstanding of the evidence or logical processes used to draw a conclusion from a given set of information. As I pointed out on JR's thread, his inability to answer the question of what evidence led him to believe the landings were faked speaks volumes about his position. Specifically, that it was absolutely NOT the result of any reasoned analysis. If it were, he would have been able to immediately answer the question as asked instead of trying to divert the conversation to speculation of who might have been involved in faking it and why they might have done it (and let's not forget his entirely wilful misrepresentation of a piece of NASA evidence to make it appear to support his claim when in reality it did precisely the opposite). This is true for nearly all, in my experience. They are not concluding the landings were faked, they are starting from that premise. That's assuming they actually hold such a belief and are not simply trolling for attention and notoriety. You can't reason someone out of an unreasonable position, especially if, for whatever reason, that premise has become so central to their identity that letting it go would cause them to melt down entirely. And even if you did, if they had been so entrenched to begin with the realisation and embarrassment may lead them to simply go off quietly and never mention it again, because for some just admitting wrongness is too much to do.

The impact of our work is harder to measure because it is less obvious, but I offer myself as an example of it. I saw the Fox special. I bought Percy's book and video. I consumed the content avidly and it raised questions in my mind about the authenticity of the landings. The idea of a conspiracy was fun and exciting. I got online and looked around for more. I found this place, I found what was then the Bad Astronomy forum, I found the excellent and informative Clavius. And they gave me information, they addressed the logical fallacies, the inconsistencies and the outright lies and prompted me to look at other publications, to find the Apollo Lunar Surface Journal, and the excellent DVD sets from Spacecraft Films. And, while I was not ill-equipped to begin with in terms of knowledge and reason, I learned. And I realised how wrong the conspiracy theories were. I turned away from the conspiracy theories because of people like you and the others here, but because I hadn't made a huge fuss about it or got into heated arguments first I would slip under the radar of anyone trying to measure impact in terms of converting HBs.

In short, don't be disheartened. The loudest voices will never be converted. The quieter ones may. And those who are just discovering it need the reasoned responses and the logical takedowns of the vocal minority HBs to counter the otherwise initially convincing rubbish spouted by them.
Thanks for the well-informed take, Jason. Just for context, I brought up this topic because I semi-accidentally got into it with an HB on YouTube. All I'd done was correct his claim that the Apollo missions were faked because they were all shot on black-and-white film. Of course, only Apollo 11 was broadcast in black and white (to save bandwidth), and none of the missions were shot on film and then hauled back to Earth.

Anyway, long story short, he posted me with a link to Heiwa's website (with the apparent intention that I should read all of Bjorkman's deranged ramblings), ignored the initial corrections, and things have proceeded from there. Despite me explaining a number of things that Bjorkman gets wrong in just the first few paragraphs of one page and linking him over to the big thread here where Bjorkman makes a complete fool of himself, nothing has had an impact. He just continues to hopscotch around to different topics and has tried in brief to derail the subject to 9/11.

The guy is just too deep into maintaining the conspiracy narrative to critically examine his own claimed evidence, in my opinion.

Offline Bryanpoprobson

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Re: Ever had an HB come around?
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2019, 04:58:19 PM »
One of Jarrahs staunchest supporters was swayed by astrobrant2 some years back. I have persuaded a couple of people to change there minds. I have however found out my son in law is a staunch non believer, but my daughter and my wife have warned me off. (For now), 😎
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Offline NthBrick

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Re: Ever had an HB come around?
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2019, 10:51:12 PM »
One of Jarrahs staunchest supporters was swayed by astrobrant2 some years back. I have persuaded a couple of people to change there minds. I have however found out my son in law is a staunch non believer, but my daughter and my wife have warned me off. (For now), 😎
Sometimes, you've just gotta leave well enough alone.  ;D

It's a strange thing, sometimes it feels like I'm forced into the role of being an "Apollo evangelist" of some sort when the main aim is to set the record straight regarding questionable claims made by HBs. Heck, the facts regarding Apollo are there for anyone to check, some just don't for whatever reason.

Offline rocketman

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Re: Ever had an HB come around?
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2019, 09:43:37 AM »
One of Jarrahs staunchest supporters was swayed by astrobrant2 some years back. I have persuaded a couple of people to change there minds. I have however found out my son in law is a staunch non believer, but my daughter and my wife have warned me off. (For now), 😎

I've never met one IRL.  I thought these people only existed on the internet.