Author Topic: Double LM Shadows.  (Read 1407 times)

Offline Combat Wombat

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Double LM Shadows.
« on: August 25, 2019, 08:22:10 PM »
Greetings all, my first post, hope it's in the right section, admin please move if needed. I'm looking at the Apollo Lunar surface photos and noticed this https://www.flickr.com/photos/projectapolloarchive/albums/72157659051610141/with/21496703049/
Double LM shadows, I've seen them on all missions (except XIII of course) and these are the most prominent examples. Only seems to happen when in the LM cabin and affects the LM shadows and nothing else in the picture, man made or natural. They seem extremely mobile too, moving between shots. How does this happen? Thanks

Offline AtomicDog

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Re: Double LM Shadows.
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2019, 09:10:32 PM »
Greetings all, my first post, hope it's in the right section, admin please move if needed. I'm looking at the Apollo Lunar surface photos and noticed this https://www.flickr.com/photos/projectapolloarchive/albums/72157659051610141/with/21496703049/
Double LM shadows, I've seen them on all missions (except XIII of course) and these are the most prominent examples. Only seems to happen when in the LM cabin and affects the LM shadows and nothing else in the picture, man made or natural. They seem extremely mobile too, moving between shots. How does this happen? Thanks

The fact that it is happening only in the LM is a clue: the LM window is double paned - you are getting double reflections of the shadow.
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Offline onebigmonkey

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Re: Double LM Shadows.
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2019, 01:54:17 PM »
I asked this question some time ago. I can't remember the outcome but your post made me look at it again.

I don't recall seeing it in other missions, but it's very noticable on Apollo 14. Here's an example of part of an image from the magazine you link to, conpared with one taken at a different time that doesn't show the feature (AS14-66-9320):



I've adjusted the contrast on the mag 66 one but not the other.

What you can see is that not only is there a reflection of the LM shadow, but also some of the shadows of the small craters around it, offset to the same kind of degree as the shadow.

Offline Combat Wombat

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Re: Double LM Shadows.
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2019, 09:37:58 PM »
Hi, thanks for your feedback, sorry about the delay, been busy. Indeed the LM windows are double paned but don't you only see the double reflection effect from objects on the observation side? I've experienced dual sheet glass on many occasions, on buildings, marine vessels and aircraft but I've never seen anything like this. I've only ever seen clear, strong dual reflections from objects on my side of the glass, never from objects on the far side. If the LM windows possessed such properties then wouldn't that count as a serious design flaw? Imagine landing the thing cross-eyed! The other curious thing here is that it's only the LM shadow and some craters that are doubled, wouldn't the horizon, the many rocks and their shadows be duplicated also? Take a look at this DAC footage taken from Aldrin's (Armstrong's too, briefly) window post EVA, you can clearly see a double shadowed LM. At 0:31 the paler section is on the right by a noticeable margin, the camera pans to the right and rests on the flag then pans left and the paler LM shadow has moved to the left. At 0:41 there's a cut and the LM shadow has no obvious pale sections but at no time do I see any duplication of the thrusters, the horizon, the flag or the rocks below the flag for the duration of the footage in either window. The F stop appears to have been changed during the 0:41 break allowing more natural colours and a less bleached effect. The footage runs for some time, covers many angles through both windows but the double image effect only appears on the LM shadow. Thanks



Offline AtomicDog

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Re: Double LM Shadows.
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2019, 09:48:13 PM »
There's a double Earth at 1:49 in the video, during orbital earthrise. It's obviously an effect that happened at certain camera and lighting angles, and something that the astronauts quickly got used to.

There are other double reflections in the video during the rendezvous with the CSM, reflecting images from the inside of the cabin. Frankly, I don't see what's supposed to be so unusual.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2019, 09:55:10 PM by AtomicDog »
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Offline Zakalwe

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Re: Double LM Shadows.
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2019, 02:15:02 AM »
I've never seen anything like this.

Probably because you've never been in a LM, on the surface of an airless world? ;)
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Offline Abaddon

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Re: Double LM Shadows.
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2019, 07:31:19 AM »
I've never seen anything like this.

So what? Just because you have never seen it means it can't possibly be real?  Have you personally ever seen an electron? Are they not real?

And for the record, it is a trivial effect seen in double or triple glazed windows. And I have seen in many times. So what use is your incredulity to anyone, even you?

Offline Kiwi

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Re: Double LM Shadows.
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2019, 09:06:42 AM »
There's a double Earth at 1:49 in the video, during orbital earthrise. It's obviously an effect that happened at certain camera and lighting angles...

The clue is in the double Earth in the black sky below the actual Earth, along with the 0:41 view of the LM shadow with no doubling.

It's impossible to project darkness into a lit area, but we can project light into a dark area, so in the first view of the "doubled" shadow, we're actually seeing a portion of the lit ground superimposed over the dark area. Considering the large difference in brightness, it's no surprise to me that at certain angles the multi-paned window did a little reflecting. Furthermore, it might even be an in-camera effect only and not visible to the naked eye. Multi-coating of lenses to cut down internal reflections was in its infancy during the Apollo missions, and computerised design of lenses hadn't yet been invented.

Back in the 1970s when I first had my own professional darkroom there was a sign on the studio wall next to the darkroom door: "Shut the door or the dark will leak out." And to some visitors' surprise, the interior of the darkroom was painted white.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2019, 09:19:38 AM by Kiwi »
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Offline gillianren

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Re: Double LM Shadows.
« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2019, 10:10:19 AM »
I see a double Moon through my double-glazed windows all the time.
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Offline bknight

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Re: Double LM Shadows.
« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2019, 10:56:26 AM »
I've never seen anything like this.

So what? Just because you have never seen it means it can't possibly be real?  Have you personally ever seen an electron? Are they not real?

And for the record, it is a trivial effect seen in double or triple glazed windows. And I have seen in many times. So what use is your incredulity to anyone, even you?

Indeed, If I can't/don't understand something it must be fake.  And of course If I can't figure something out, then it must be fake.  Two logical fallacies one of which Combat Wombat displays.
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Offline AtomicDog

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Re: Double LM Shadows.
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2019, 12:35:53 PM »
Looking at the CSM approach again, there is a clear double reflection off of the metal foil of the CM. As the CSM rolls, you can clearly see the reflection move to match the orientation of the primary highlight. Indeed, just before the clip ends, you can see another, fainter reflection in the same orientation, joining the first.
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Offline Jason Thompson

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Re: Double LM Shadows.
« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2019, 03:10:27 PM »
Hi, thanks for your feedback, sorry about the delay, been busy. Indeed the LM windows are double paned but don't you only see the double reflection effect from objects on the observation side?

No. It depends primarily on the relative angles and the strength of illumination. You'll see the effect with whichever is the brighter. I've seen a double moon out of a double glazed window on many occasions, for example.

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If the LM windows possessed such properties then wouldn't that count as a serious design flaw?

No, it's a natural property of the material the window is made of. All glass panes do it to some degree. That's basic optics.

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Imagine landing the thing cross-eyed!

Why would this effect be even close to 'landing cross-eyed'? Even with the double image you can still tell which is the 'real' and which the reflection.

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The other curious thing here is that it's only the LM shadow and some craters that are doubled, wouldn't the horizon, the many rocks and their shadows be duplicated also?

Not necessarily. Given the relative wide angle of the camera lens I wouldn't expect the see the entire image duplicated in that way, just certain part of it depending on the relative angles of the optical axis and the window.

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The footage runs for some time, covers many angles through both windows but the double image effect only appears on the LM shadow.

So what do you think is more likely? That you have not fully grasped the optical effects in the imagery, or that somehow this common occurrence is proof of something dodgy and no-one picked it up before publishing the images and footage over the course of a bunch of missions covering a few years until you came along half a century later?
« Last Edit: September 02, 2019, 03:20:48 PM by Jason Thompson »
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Offline smartcooky

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Re: Double LM Shadows.
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2019, 03:44:01 AM »
Another thing to consider (if it hasn't already been mentioned) is, were the cameras fitted with polarizing filters or even ND or UV filters? If they were, then that could go some part of the way to explaining differing reflection levels in different parts of the image.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2019, 04:16:43 AM by smartcooky »
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Offline Combat Wombat

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Re: Double LM Shadows.
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2019, 08:18:51 PM »
Hello, long time no hear! Been fighting fires up northern NSW, Australia!

No. It depends primarily on the relative angles and the strength of illumination. You'll see the effect with whichever is the brighter. I've seen a double moon out of a double glazed window on many occasions, for example.

Yes, it depends on what is brighter, here's an example of double images through the double-paned glass of the LM. https://www.flickr.com/photos/projectapolloarchive/21495627468/in/album-72157658638144538/. You'll notice that the image occurs on the brightly lit objects; the horizon, the Earth and the sun's rays on the thrusters, note how darker LM components on the dark background aren't readily duplicated. If you look further in the album the image is contained in you'll see LM shadow images taken through the LM windows. To begin with they seem like single shadows, then it begins to double up and move in different directions but everything else remains single. Rocks,  other shadows, the flag and the horizon. In other images bright objects like ALSEPs and astronauts aren't duplicated. Finally, shadows aren't brightly lit, illuminating them destroys them.

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Combat Wombat said The other curious thing here is that it's only the LM shadow and some craters that are doubled, wouldn't the horizon, the many rocks and their shadows be duplicated also?

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Not necessarily. Given the relative wide angle of the camera lens I wouldn't expect the see the entire image duplicated in that way, just certain part of it depending on the relative angles of the optical axis and the window.

There are images where components of the LM shadow are duplicated but others nearby or adjacent are not. Seems like a very selective physical property and a poor quality camera to take all the way to the moon!!!!

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So what do you think is more likely? That you have not fully grasped the optical effects in the imagery, or that somehow this common occurrence is proof of something dodgy and no-one picked it up before publishing the images and footage over the course of a bunch of missions covering a few years until you came along half a century later?

It's not just me questioning this, I watched the landings as kid and became a NASA fanboy. Long story short, I became aware of the archive a few years ago but it was not until earlier this year that I began to look at it, the stabilized HD DAC footage and LROC images, not impressed. Seems that many of the Apollo images were not readily available until fairly recently and there's many to view, 1000s of them. If they were all available for analysis half a century ago the story could've been quite different. I've searched for explanations, NASA's Apollo Lunar Surface Journal calls these shadows 'dramatic washout'. The moon wiki calls it the 'Heiligenschein effect' https://the-moon.us/wiki/Retro-Reflection_phenomena. People on this forum and others call it an optical effect of the windows, lenses and lens filters but I've never seen any scientific description. I used to do silver halide photography back in the 80s, they look double lit and/or overlaid to me and were probably never meant to see the light of day. I'm surprised they weren't 'lost' like much of  NASA's archives and technologies. My silver halide and 35mm camera are long gone but time permitting I'll see if I can build analogues of LM components and see what transpires under natural and artificial light(s). Till then I'll just annotate some images from the archive and attach them.

Thanks, Combat Wombat

Offline JayUtah

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Re: Double LM Shadows.
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2019, 09:55:25 PM »
There are images where components of the LM shadow are duplicated but others nearby or adjacent are not.

Such as?

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Seems like a very selective physical property and a poor quality camera to take all the way to the moon!!!!

The quality of the camera has little to do with the optical behavior of the scene being photographed.  I have a very expensive set of cameras and lenses, and if I photograph through double glass I often get double images.  Are you sure you're a photographer?

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It's not just me questioning this...

Name three others who are questioning this precise thing.

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I watched the landings as kid and became a NASA fanboy.

Yeah, every hoax theorist says he was a fanboy and was dragged kicking and screaming to the opposite conclusion by the sheer weight of facts.  No, I don't buy it.

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Seems that many of the Apollo images were not readily available until fairly recently...

Nonsense.  They've been available from NASA's photo services contractor since shortly after the missions.  I have prints that date to the early 1970s in my collection.  All you had to do was supply the ID number and pay a fee.

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NASA's Apollo Lunar Surface Journal calls these shadows 'dramatic washout'.

No.

https://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a14/images14.html describes the image as "Down-Sun with the dramatic washout."  Nothing there says "washout" refers to the shadows.  Since the surface background is devoid of detail, and since that's the typical photographic meaning of "washout," I strongly dispute your interpretation.  You're reading things into the source material that aren't there.

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The moon wiki calls it the 'Heiligenschein effect' https://the-moon.us/wiki/Retro-Reflection_phenomena.

No, that doesn't refer to the shadows either.  You're simply mining quotes from pages that use these photographs to illustrate various phenomena and assuming they must be trying to explain the shadows.

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...but I've never seen any scientific description.

Why are those explanations non-scientific?  What in your mind would qualify as a "scientific description" of what's going on?  Does a reference to a commonly observed phenomenon in similar circumstances necessitate a "scientific" explanation?

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...they look double lit and/or overlaid to me...

No.  That doesn't account for the other effects that are clearly the result of interreflection.

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Till then I'll just annotate some images from the archive and attach them.

You're not very good at analyzing images.
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