Author Topic: Notre Dame Cathedral fire  (Read 1210 times)

Offline apollo16uvc

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Re: Notre Dame Cathedral fire
« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2019, 03:49:49 PM »
Fire department of Paris has released video footage of its epic man on duty at the Notre Dame fire.

https://www.rd.nl/vandaag/buitenland/brandweer-parijs-geeft-beelden-vrij-van-blussen-notre-dame-1.1561713


Some status updates:


According to reports, firemen and people from the church have had enough time to remove many art treasures. Such as the crown of thorns and the tunic of Saint Louis

1 of the three rose windows has fallen down. The two remaining rose windows appear unharmed. Some of the minor glass windows have been destroyed, but the oldest and largest ones appear intact.

The organ appears intact.

The amount of water damage to the many paintings within the church is still unknown. The paintings are being moved to climate-controlled vaults to overview the damage.

It is uncertain how far the fire and water has damaged the structural integrity.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2019, 03:53:02 PM by apollo16uvc »
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Offline ka9q

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Re: Notre Dame Cathedral fire
« Reply #16 on: April 16, 2019, 08:11:51 PM »
I'm an atheist, but for me Notre Dame completely transcends religion. It's a hugely significant cultural and historical artifact that's extremely important to a lot of people, and it really hurt to see it burn. I've seen it from the outside several times but never went inside. It's an active church, and when I was there services were underway so I didn't want to just walk around snapping pictures. Now I'm sorry I never went in.

I had no idea there was so much wood in that roof structure. Hopefully it won't be rebuilt that way, or some future generation will have to watch it burn all over again. I'm not a structural or civil engineer, but it seems to me that steel could be used to support the roof, and it would be just as hidden as the wood that burned.

I was also surprised to learn that the roof was lead. I knew from our trips to Istanbul that lead is used to roof minarets in mosques, at least in that part of the world. I remember seeing large rolls of lead sheeting being used in a renovation and was surprised that would still be allowed today. I guess the same practice was followed for large Christian churches in Europe. I can only wonder where all that lead is right now. Quite a lot of it is probably in the river, with much more deposited as dust all over Paris downwind of the site.  I'm sure a suitable replacement material can be found that has the same appearance.

But rebuilding the structure is probably the easy part. It's all the stuff inside. At least much of it seems to have survived, especially the small artifacts that could be quickly removed. By all accounts that was a heroic effort. But there was probably a lot of smoke and water damage throughout the interior. Sigh. Terrible.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2019, 08:19:57 PM by ka9q »

Offline Peter B

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Re: Notre Dame Cathedral fire
« Reply #17 on: April 17, 2019, 07:31:45 AM »
I'm an atheist, but for me Notre Dame completely transcends religion. It's a hugely significant cultural and historical artifact that's extremely important to a lot of people, and it really hurt to see it burn.

Exactly. It's the same whether it's Notre Dame, Hagia Sophia or the Pantheon. Regardless of the reason for their beauty, we can all appreciate that beauty and regret its loss.

Quote
I had no idea there was so much wood in that roof structure. Hopefully it won't be rebuilt that way, or some future generation will have to watch it burn all over again. I'm not a structural or civil engineer, but it seems to me that steel could be used to support the roof, and it would be just as hidden as the wood that burned.

Agreed. I'd like to see it restored to how it was before the fire, even though I understand its current form has only existed since a "restoration" in the middle of the 19th century. To that extent what matters most is what people can see. (Which is what makes me roll my eyes about the Sydney Opera House, beautiful as it is: its construction was made more complex and expensive by the architect's insistence that the building's iconic sails had to be structural rather than cosmetic, a difference which is entirely invisible). If there comes a time in humanity's future when people don't care about the survival of the building, then by all means let it fall into ruin; but I think that's not likely to happen for a long time.

Quote
I was also surprised to learn that the roof was lead. I knew from our trips to Istanbul that lead is used to roof minarets in mosques, at least in that part of the world. I remember seeing large rolls of lead sheeting being used in a renovation and was surprised that would still be allowed today. I guess the same practice was followed for large Christian churches in Europe.

I understand that lead has been used for roofing since Roman times at least, which means it's likely to be common in old buildings across Europe, except for locations where slate is easily available.

Offline Peter B

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Re: Notre Dame Cathedral fire
« Reply #18 on: April 17, 2019, 07:47:17 AM »
An idiot friend-of-a-friend was arguing that it wasn't really a tragedy, because something something French imperialism.  The Algerian in the group disagreed and was consistently treated as just another white guy.  After he claimed that opposing Communism was racist because most Communist countries were African, Asian, or South American--and then insisting that the USSR had been culturally Asian--he got unfriended by the guy whose friend I am.

Ah yes, Notre Dame was built to celebrate Napoleon's victory over the Mexicans, at the Battle of Dien Bien Phu, in the Franco-Prussian War...  ::)

And that's what frustrates me about people who have a simplistic, jingoistic view of history as conflicts between supposedly monolithic cultures/faiths. The Christchurch killer is a gruesome example, with his arsenal covered with names of battles between "Crusaders" and Muslims.

What that view misses is how complex, how messy, history can be. The current Syrian Civil War is a classic example. But one example from history I like to pull out occasionally is the 1453 Ottoman Siege of Greek Constantinople - seemingly a classical example of the clash of faiths: the Ottoman army included thousands of Christians, particularly including Serbian miners who were employed to dig under the city's wall; and the Greek defenders included a refugee Ottoman prince and his retinue who ended up fighting to the death when the city fell.

Offline apollo16uvc

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Offline gillianren

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Re: Notre Dame Cathedral fire
« Reply #20 on: April 17, 2019, 10:30:14 AM »
A former teacher of mine who's also a musician was relieved to discover that the organ was not completely destroyed.

My Catholic friends are relieved to discover the relics have been saved.

My historian friends are relieved to discover that much of the fabric of the original cathedral has been spared.

My art historian friend is relieved to discover that most of the art, and two of the three rose windows, are safe.

Everyone I talk to, it seems, has something else to be happy about!
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Offline Northern Lurker

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Re: Notre Dame Cathedral fire
« Reply #21 on: April 17, 2019, 12:57:09 PM »
Too soon?

Lurky  :P

Offline twik

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Re: Notre Dame Cathedral fire
« Reply #22 on: April 17, 2019, 03:06:19 PM »
Aaaand, of course, Glenn Beck announces that "if the fire was started by Islamists, you'd never be told." In other words, proof of conspiracy is that there is no evidence for it.

Offline jfb

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Re: Notre Dame Cathedral fire
« Reply #23 on: April 17, 2019, 05:50:33 PM »
Aaaand, of course, Glenn Beck announces that "if the fire was started by Islamists, you'd never be told." In other words, proof of conspiracy is that there is no evidence for it.

The better part of that statement is that it's obviously those sneaky Mooslums that are responsible. 

Offline gillianren

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Re: Notre Dame Cathedral fire
« Reply #24 on: April 18, 2019, 11:36:11 AM »
There are already doctored photos floating around "proving" that Muslims did it.  In one of them, the "lone man in Muslim garb" turns out to be [checks] a firefighter.
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Offline gwiz

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Re: Notre Dame Cathedral fire
« Reply #25 on: April 19, 2019, 06:06:24 AM »
I understand that lead has been used for roofing since Roman times at least, which means it's likely to be common in old buildings across Europe, except for locations where slate is easily available.
Even here in Cornwall, not far from an enormous slate pit, there is plenty of lead used.   Both modern and ancient buildings have it to fit the awkward corners that are difficult with slate.  Our local old church has a mainly slate roof, but with lead for the flat roof on the tower and for the valleys between the roof sections.
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Offline molesworth

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Re: Notre Dame Cathedral fire
« Reply #26 on: April 19, 2019, 12:36:56 PM »
I'm very encouraged by reports of how much has survived.  I had the privilege of singing Mass in Notre-Dame in 1996.  Our conductor was very savvy.  We were given half an hour for private rehearsal, all the tourists having been shooed out.  He rehearsed for all of sixty seconds and then told us to go experience the cathedral without the press of the crowd.  It was sublime.  Notre-Dame de Paris is an icon of Western architecture.  It transcends all boundaries of history, politics, and religion.
Wow!  That must have been a great experience, and a chance to enjoy the majesty of the place without the usual babble.

Like others have mentioned, I'm an atheist, but creations like Notre Dame are beyond religion, philosophy, or even science, and show us what we can achieve, if we try.
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Offline Echnaton

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Re: Notre Dame Cathedral fire
« Reply #27 on: April 19, 2019, 04:05:27 PM »
It is a great building and I am saddened by the destruction, but the Cathedral in nearby Chartres was built at the same time and is a much more spectacular building. Being outside of Paris, it doesn't have as many cultural references, but it is very much worth a visit if you have an interest in medieval architecture. 
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Online JayUtah

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Re: Notre Dame Cathedral fire
« Reply #28 on: May 10, 2019, 01:56:28 PM »
A former teacher of mine who's also a musician was relieved to discover that the organ was not completely destroyed.

It's a very important instrument in the organ world, played by several famous organists-in-residence and important composers of French organ literature.  There are famous pieces in the literature that are essentially made to be played on that instrument specifically.  Having had the pleasure of hearing them so played, I agree with the sentiment.

My sister visited Paris later that week with her husband, but was unable to get onto the island to see the surviving structure.  I sent her to Ste.-Chapelle instead, which is every bit as breathtaking a church.
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Offline apollo16uvc

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Re: Notre Dame Cathedral fire
« Reply #29 on: May 10, 2019, 03:31:14 PM »
I do so much hope it is going to be restored to the state before the fire.
Dare I say, even with the originally designed spires on the two bell towers.

But I am afraid it is going to be made into a modern-art travesty. Today, nothing is sacred to architects.
I present a case for such fear in the following proposal:

https://edition.cnn.com/style/article/france-notre-dame-green-scli-intl/index.html
https://www.mixdexhq.com/experiential-design/foster-partners-creates-proposal-for-new-notre-dame-spire/

Vandalism of world heritage.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2019, 03:39:28 PM by apollo16uvc »
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