Author Topic: LM didn't have enough power.  (Read 1956 times)

Offline apollo16uvc

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LM didn't have enough power.
« on: February 03, 2019, 09:26:05 AM »
The following YT video  shows the LM did not have enough electrical power to be able to work as claimed. He talks about the LM configuration that would be used on Apollo 11



A few of the points:
The 65kW-h of power maximum would run out after only 16.25 hours, not the 35hour stay.

To transfer analog video on Earth for 60 miles, 3kW is required, the LM had a max usage of 4kW

There was not enough room for the batteries, batteries were too small.


Your thoughts?
« Last Edit: February 03, 2019, 10:27:01 AM by apollo16uvc »
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Offline bknight

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Re: LM didn't have enough power.
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2019, 11:00:26 AM »
ka9q will answer this video easily.  This was debunked in many ways as the producer doesn't know much about the power requirements.  For example the dividing the battery power by the max output resulting in 16 hours is sophomoric at best.  The continuous power usage is much lower than 4 KW. 
An answer to these stupid assertions can be found:
https://www.quora.com/How-much-power-was-required-to-transmit-a-video-signal-from-the-Moon-to-Earth-in-1969
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Offline Northern Lurker

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Re: LM didn't have enough power.
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2019, 11:24:52 AM »
I quickly skimmed the video. Two biggest arguments I spotted was the small size of LM batteries and transmitting power.

LM's batteries were of silver-zinc chemistry which has greater power density than regular lead-acid batteries. I'd guess the video maker's disbelief comes from conflict between sizes of common lead-acid batteries and actually used silver-zinc batteries of published amperage.

Another point of disbelief was expectation that since TV station's 34 kW transmitter had range of 60 miles, it is unbelievable that LM managed to transmit 300 000 miles on only 3 kW transmitter. The ignorant video maker doesn't seem to understand that the TV station's 60 mile maximum range comes from curvature of earth. Also he doesn't seem to comprehend the difference in required signal strength between regular tv-antenna and a huge radio telescope.

There more claims about LM's powers systems and power usage but I don't know enough about LM to address those.

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Offline Bryanpoprobson

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Re: LM didn't have enough power.
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2019, 12:35:43 PM »
Oh dear, shill stompers is one of expattatty’s acolytes, he trawls long debunked videos and then rehashes them. There is nothing to be gained by arguing on his channel. You will have insults thrown at you and no one there has the intellect to put a rational sentence togeather, let alone a constructive argument.
"Wise men speak because they have something to say!" "Fools speak, because they have to say something!" (Plato)

Offline bknight

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Re: LM didn't have enough power.
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2019, 03:39:44 PM »
Oh dear, shill stompers is one of expattatty’s acolytes, he trawls long debunked videos and then rehashes them. There is nothing to be gained by arguing on his channel. You will have insults thrown at you and no one there has the intellect to put a rational sentence togeather, let alone a constructive argument.

A sock or another mentally challenged associate?
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
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Offline Obviousman

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Re: LM didn't have enough power.
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2019, 04:01:29 PM »

Offline Von_Smith

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Re: LM didn't have enough power.
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2019, 08:24:06 AM »
ka9q will answer this video easily.  This was debunked in many ways as the producer doesn't know much about the power requirements.  For example the dividing the battery power by the max output resulting in 16 hours is sophomoric at best.  The continuous power usage is much lower than 4 KW. 
An answer to these stupid assertions can be found:
https://www.quora.com/How-much-power-was-required-to-transmit-a-video-signal-from-the-Moon-to-Earth-in-1969

I haven't watched the video.  Does he really use an argument that dumb?  That's a bit like saying that my flashlight couldn't have lasted a whole weekend camping trip because the battery would run out in just a few hours if I left it on.  If I'm understanding that correctly?

Offline bknight

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Re: LM didn't have enough power.
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2019, 08:41:02 AM »
ka9q will answer this video easily.  This was debunked in many ways as the producer doesn't know much about the power requirements.  For example the dividing the battery power by the max output resulting in 16 hours is sophomoric at best.  The continuous power usage is much lower than 4 KW. 
An answer to these stupid assertions can be found:
https://www.quora.com/How-much-power-was-required-to-transmit-a-video-signal-from-the-Moon-to-Earth-in-1969

I haven't watched the video.  Does he really use an argument that dumb?  That's a bit like saying that my flashlight couldn't have lasted a whole weekend camping trip because the battery would run out in just a few hours if I left it on.  If I'm understanding that correctly?

Yes he does; seems to me like 3-4 minutes into the video  I quite watching at that point an don't know what other dumb assertions were made.

ETA: in all fairness, I believe it was his contention that the video transmissions REQUIRE 4 KW(or more).  That is why I said ka9q would easily debunk it.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2019, 08:47:18 AM by bknight »
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Offline onebigmonkey

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Re: LM didn't have enough power.
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2019, 01:33:26 PM »

Another point of disbelief was expectation that since TV station's 34 kW transmitter had range of 60 miles, it is unbelievable that LM managed to transmit 300 000 miles on only 3 kW transmitter. The ignorant video maker doesn't seem to understand that the TV station's 60 mile maximum range comes from curvature of earth. Also he doesn't seem to comprehend the difference in required signal strength between regular tv-antenna and a huge radio telescope.

The thing that occurs to me here is that while the distance over which transmission occurs is much greater, the amount of actual stuff in the way of that transmission is actually much smaller.

Offline Grashtel

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Re: LM didn't have enough power.
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2019, 08:12:48 PM »

Another point of disbelief was expectation that since TV station's 34 kW transmitter had range of 60 miles, it is unbelievable that LM managed to transmit 300 000 miles on only 3 kW transmitter. The ignorant video maker doesn't seem to understand that the TV station's 60 mile maximum range comes from curvature of earth. Also he doesn't seem to comprehend the difference in required signal strength between regular tv-antenna and a huge radio telescope.

The thing that occurs to me here is that while the distance over which transmission occurs is much greater, the amount of actual stuff in the way of that transmission is actually much smaller.
And the transmission is tightly directional to a very high gain dish rather than omnidirectional to a simple antenna
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Offline ka9q

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Re: LM didn't have enough power.
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2019, 07:20:15 AM »
Yeah, I could give a fully detailed link budget, but I'll do it only if someone here is interested. The Youtube conspiracy crowd is far beyond help.

A link budget is a full spreadsheet-style accounting of the signal and noise levels at each point in a communications link. The bottom line is a received signal-to-noise ratio. If it's high enough for the modulation chosen, then the system will work; the link is said to be closed ("closed" like an electrical switch, not a valve in a pipe...) The signal calculations assume only geometry (especially the inverse square law) and conservation of energy. The noise calculations are based on thermodynamics, particularly an understanding of what Boltzmann's constant 'k' means, which in turn assumes a knowledge of statistics.

But the point is that all of this stuff is routinely verified every day, including by individuals such as radio hams who aren't experts in thermodynamics. And reality always rules.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2019, 07:21:50 AM by ka9q »

Offline Abaddon

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Re: LM didn't have enough power.
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2019, 02:15:48 PM »
Yeah, I could give a fully detailed link budget, but I'll do it only if someone here is interested. The Youtube conspiracy crowd is far beyond help.

A link budget is a full spreadsheet-style accounting of the signal and noise levels at each point in a communications link. The bottom line is a received signal-to-noise ratio. If it's high enough for the modulation chosen, then the system will work; the link is said to be closed ("closed" like an electrical switch, not a valve in a pipe...) The signal calculations assume only geometry (especially the inverse square law) and conservation of energy. The noise calculations are based on thermodynamics, particularly an understanding of what Boltzmann's constant 'k' means, which in turn assumes a knowledge of statistics.

But the point is that all of this stuff is routinely verified every day, including by individuals such as radio hams who aren't experts in thermodynamics. And reality always rules.

I have yours from years ago.

Offline bknight

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Re: LM didn't have enough power.
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2019, 02:38:39 PM »
Attach it to the YT video.
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Offline Abaddon

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Re: LM didn't have enough power.
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2019, 01:52:34 AM »
Not yet.

Offline Glom

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Re: LM didn't have enough power.
« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2019, 06:20:23 PM »
The omnis were only for voice, right? The TV had to go through the HGA?

On such topics, may I recommend the Technology Connections YT channel. Really interesting stuff about antique media technology. Useful basis for understanding how Apollo media tech differed.