Author Topic: "Electron" Rocket makes New Zealand the 11th country to join the space club  (Read 1481 times)

Offline gwiz

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Re: "Electron" Rocket makes New Zealand the 11th country to join the space club
« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2018, 06:27:33 AM »
The rest of the world acknowledges that this is a NZ launch, and that we are the 11th country to launch satellites into orbit.
We'll have to see which country eventually registers it with the UN.  In the meantime, the Satellite Situation Report lists all objects from the launch, Electron stages included, as US apart from the Humanity Star payload.
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Offline Geordie

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Re: "Electron" Rocket makes New Zealand the 11th country to join the space club
« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2018, 02:49:19 PM »
However, Rocket Lab is a US company.  Von Braun and many of his team were German, but no-one claims that Explorer 1 was anything other than a US launch.  By the time they designed the Redstone, the Germans were all working for a US organisation.
But von Braun wasn't running a German subsidiary company, in postwar Germany, launching rockets from German soil.

No one is claiming an NZ launch and satellite deployment on the strength of some kiwis working in the US.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2018, 02:55:51 PM by Geordie »

Offline gwiz

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Re: "Electron" Rocket makes New Zealand the 11th country to join the space club
« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2018, 12:19:23 PM »
I'll refer you to the mission patch, the flag for the US, but no flag, only a fern for NZ.  First launch patch had similar symbols and the actual rocket also carried a US flag.
http://www.spaceflightinsider.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/MissionPatch.png
« Last Edit: February 20, 2018, 12:30:05 PM by gwiz »
Multiple exclamation marks are a sure sign of a diseased mind - Terry Pratchett
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Offline smartcooky

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Re: "Electron" Rocket makes New Zealand the 11th country to join the space club
« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2018, 02:15:42 PM »
I'll refer you to the mission patch, the flag for the US, but no flag, only a fern for NZ.  First launch patch had similar symbols and the actual rocket also carried a US flag.
http://www.spaceflightinsider.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/MissionPatch.png

If you knew anything at all about New Zealand (and you obviously do not) you would know that the Silver Fern IS the symbol of New Zealand, internationally recognised in all affairs except those of government. Trade, sport, retail and manufacturing all use the Silver Fern and only the Silver Fern. It is the officially registered trademark of NZ

http://www.fernmark.nzstory.govt.nz/silver-fern

You will not find the NZ flag on anything produced or made by private companies in New Zealand, except those involving the government, e.g. the military. I would have been astonished to see the New Zealand Flag on Electron as it is a private project, not a Government project (a NZ Flag would indicate it had something to do with the NZ Government)

And just to further rip the rug out from your mission patch argument I give you the SpaceX mission patch for Bulgariasat



The green, white and red of the Bulgarian Flag is prominent... must have been launched by Bulgaria, right?

Ooops... try again.


ETA: And just to address your "RocketLab is a USA company" meme

Intel, the great American Computer chip manufacturer, right? Bzzzt Wrong... based in The Republic Of Ireland.

Vauxhall, the Great British car manufacturer? No so fast... its a subsidiary of General Motors, an American Company, based in Detroit

Just because RocketLab is based in the USA does not mean that Electron is an American rocket or that the launch was American. The rocket was conceived, designed, manufactured, tested and launched in New Zealand, with New Zealand expertise, skill and engineering. It is a New Zealand Rocket by every measure that matters.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2018, 02:55:41 PM by smartcooky »
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Offline smartcooky

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Re: "Electron" Rocket makes New Zealand the 11th country to join the space club
« Reply #19 on: February 20, 2018, 09:42:09 PM »
While we are on the subject of mission patches, I note that you mention the original "Its a Test" patch from the first attempt to go to orbit. Interesting that you didn't link to it.

Well here it is



The "American Flag" you mention is a strange one indeed... the stars are white and the stripes are red (there are only three of them... I thought there were supposed to be 13, but I digress) are on a black background. I wonder why that is?

Further, in the centre of the patch is Rocket Lab's Logo; the same logo that is on the side of the Electron rocket



(also, note the Silver Fern at the top!)

Rocket Lab's logo is a stylized atom, the Earth is shown as the nucleus, with three electrons "in orbit". Note the country that is centred on the globe... can you guess which country that is?

« Last Edit: February 20, 2018, 10:18:15 PM by smartcooky »
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Offline DD Brock

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Re: "Electron" Rocket makes New Zealand the 11th country to join the space club
« Reply #20 on: February 21, 2018, 03:23:55 AM »
That's a cool mission patch!

Offline gwiz

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Re: "Electron" Rocket makes New Zealand the 11th country to join the space club
« Reply #21 on: February 21, 2018, 09:01:53 AM »
The "American Flag" you mention is a strange one indeed...
Nothing strange about the US flag on the tail of the rocket: https://www.rocketlabusa.com/assets/Uploads/Rocket-Lab-Still-Testing-launch-21-January-2018.jpg

Do NZ merchant ships use a fern or a national flag?

SpaceX may have put the Bulgarian flag on the patch, but the actual rocket carried a US flag and a Bulgariasat company logo.

And from someone who should know:
Rocket Lab, like Beck himself, did originate in New Zealand. Only after the Electron program began did it become a U.S. company with a New Zealand subsidiary.

“We had secured significant Silicon Valley capital, and it doesn’t make sense to build value like that in a New Zealand company,” Beck explained. “And the launch vehicle is a U.S. launch vehicle, so there’s a lot of legal reasons why we need to be a U.S. company as well.”
http://www.spaceflightinsider.com/missions/commercial/rocket-lab-electron-rutherford-peter-beck-started-first-place/
« Last Edit: February 21, 2018, 09:19:49 AM by gwiz »
Multiple exclamation marks are a sure sign of a diseased mind - Terry Pratchett
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Offline Geordie

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Re: "Electron" Rocket makes New Zealand the 11th country to join the space club
« Reply #22 on: February 21, 2018, 02:21:29 PM »
Further, in the centre of the patch is Rocket Lab's Logo; the same logo that is on the side of the Electron rocket.
You forgot to mention that the background is All Black.

Offline smartcooky

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Re: "Electron" Rocket makes New Zealand the 11th country to join the space club
« Reply #23 on: February 21, 2018, 02:44:54 PM »
Nothing strange about the US flag on the tail of the rocket: https://www.rocketlabusa.com/assets/Uploads/Rocket-Lab-Still-Testing-launch-21-January-2018.jpg

So what? Its tiny and sits at the very bottom of the the rocket. It represents American involvement. There is a Silver Fern flag in the same place on the other side of the rocket.

Do NZ merchant ships use a fern or a national flag?

Yes they do... They also fly the "red duster" (the NZ Red Ensign). That is a requirement of International Marine Law. A flag is meant to be identified easily at sea. The problem with the use of black on a flag is it gets really difficult to discern in a dimly lit area where a flag begins and ends. The dark blue of the NZ flag also present that problem which is why the red and white ensigns are used. However, NZ Merchant ships DO fly silver fern flags as well

SpaceX may have put the Bulgarian flag on the patch, but the actual rocket carried a US flag and a Bulgariasat company logo.

You insisted that the flag on the mission patch denotes the country that launched itt.. Now you insist that it doesn't. Its the old switcheroo, a technique right out of the CT playbook. Please make up your mind.

Quote
And from someone who should know:
Rocket Lab, like Beck himself, did originate in New Zealand. Only after the Electron program began did it become a U.S. company with a New Zealand subsidiary.

And that subsidiary means that its partly a NZ Company, in exactly the same way that Vauxhall is a British car maker, a subsidiary of General Motors, an American car maker; in exactly the same way that Holden is an Australian car maker, a subsidiary of General Motors, an American car maker; in the same way that Intel, an American manufacturer of computer IC's is actually based in the Republic of Ireland.

This launch least partly a NZ launch, and that is sufficient to make NZ the 11th country to launch an orbital class rocket, like it or lump it.

Quote
“We had secured significant Silicon Valley capital, and it doesn’t make sense to build value like that in a New Zealand company,” Beck explained. “And the launch vehicle is a U.S. launch vehicle, so there’s a lot of legal reasons why we need to be a U.S. company as well.”
http://www.spaceflightinsider.com/missions/commercial/rocket-lab-electron-rutherford-peter-beck-started-first-place/

All very interesting, and all meaningless. Vauxhall had HUGE financial input from Detroit, as did Holden. It doesn't make the Vauxhall Corsa, Astra, Mokka, Insignia, Zafira or Crossland, or the Holden Commodore, Calais or Monaro American cars.

General Electric and Motorola... two iconic American Brands, right... BZZZT Wrong. They are wholly owned by Chinese investors, yet no-one claims that the over 33,000 GE Engines in Civilian and Military aircraft such as the Boeing 787, 777,  are Chinese. No-one claims that the range of domestic and commercial products that these companies sell are Chinese.

International investment is the commercial reality that all companies face, especially ones in countries as small as this one. None of what you have argued makes any difference to the fact the world recognises this as a New Zealand launch.

Finally, I really don't understand why you need to be such a contrarian. For some reason, the very idea that a small country like mine has achieved this seems to really chap your arse. Perhaps its because the British government pulled the plug on your efforts. Who knows?

On this forum, we are ALL space enthusiasts (at least, I hope we are, otherwise, why are we even here?). Another country getting into space should be an achievement that is celebrated by all of us. We should have been celebrating innovations  such as 3D printed engines, and battery powered electric turbopumps; both firsts in an orbital class rocket. Instead, the thread has been derailed by a killjoy into a pointless argument about who launched the rocket. If I had known that I would need to defend our achievement against a contrarian who seems to have a burr up his backside about something, I would not have bothered even mentioning the launch in the first place.

I shall have to be very, very careful in future what I post here... and that saddens me.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2018, 02:57:48 PM by smartcooky »
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Offline smartcooky

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Re: "Electron" Rocket makes New Zealand the 11th country to join the space club
« Reply #24 on: February 21, 2018, 02:52:14 PM »
Further, in the centre of the patch is Rocket Lab's Logo; the same logo that is on the side of the Electron rocket.
You forgot to mention that the background is All Black.

And the Rocket, well the first one was, the second one was black and white
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Offline gwiz

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Re: "Electron" Rocket makes New Zealand the 11th country to join the space club
« Reply #25 on: February 22, 2018, 12:58:52 PM »
You insisted that the flag on the mission patch denotes the country that launched itt.. Now you insist that it doesn't. Its the old switcheroo, a technique right out of the CT playbook. Please make up your mind.
I first mentioned the flags on the patch and the actual rocket in the same post above.  I didn't switch from patch to rocket after you gave a counter-example.  However, I would think that what's on the actual rocket is what counts the most.

I'm sorry you feel as you do, I'm not trying to be difficult nor do I discount the technical achievements of Rocket Lab.  It just seems to me that there is evidence - the flag on the rocket, the Satellite Situation Report and Beck's own statement - that not everyone considers the nationality as clearly defined as you do.

As I said above we'll have to see which country eventually registers this launch with the UN to have a definitive answer.  Can we agree to wait?
« Last Edit: February 22, 2018, 01:01:23 PM by gwiz »
Multiple exclamation marks are a sure sign of a diseased mind - Terry Pratchett
...the ascent module ... took off like a rocket - Moon Man

Offline smartcooky

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Re: "Electron" Rocket makes New Zealand the 11th country to join the space club
« Reply #26 on: February 22, 2018, 02:27:20 PM »
As I said above we'll have to see which country eventually registers this launch with the UN to have a definitive answer

That's not definitive. UNOOSA registers the satellites that make orbit, not the launch vehicle. Thats why you have countries like

Norway (NorSat-2 launched from Baikonur Cosmodrome)
Pakistan (BADR-1 launched from Jiuquan Satellite Launch Center)
Canada (Nimiq-5 launched  from Baikonur Cosmodrome)
Mongolia (NUMSat-1 launched from Baikonur Cosmodrome)

listed in their registry

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Offline gwiz

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Re: "Electron" Rocket makes New Zealand the 11th country to join the space club
« Reply #27 on: February 23, 2018, 12:29:28 PM »
The USA includes its rocket stages in its registrations.
Multiple exclamation marks are a sure sign of a diseased mind - Terry Pratchett
...the ascent module ... took off like a rocket - Moon Man

Offline smartcooky

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Re: "Electron" Rocket makes New Zealand the 11th country to join the space club
« Reply #28 on: February 23, 2018, 06:52:08 PM »
The USA includes its rocket stages in its registrations.

Only those that go into orbit, or will remain in orbit for some period of time. De-orbited stages are not registered. SpaceX  de-orbits second stages (once the payload is deployed) so as not to add to the problem of space junk. Rocket Lab also did this in "Still Testing", and they destroyed the whole rocket on "Its a Test" so as not to have it go into orbit.
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Offline gwiz

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Re: "Electron" Rocket makes New Zealand the 11th country to join the space club
« Reply #29 on: February 24, 2018, 06:19:24 AM »
Only those that go into orbit, or will remain in orbit for some period of time. De-orbited stages are not registered. SpaceX  de-orbits second stages (once the payload is deployed) so as not to add to the problem of space junk. Rocket Lab also did this in "Still Testing", and they destroyed the whole rocket on "Its a Test" so as not to have it go into orbit.
Both the second and third stages from "Still Testing" are still in orbit.  They destroyed "It's a Test" because they lost telemetry and couldn't confirm it was still on track, it was planned to go into orbit with a Humanity Star satellite.
Multiple exclamation marks are a sure sign of a diseased mind - Terry Pratchett
...the ascent module ... took off like a rocket - Moon Man