Author Topic: Miracles vs. Science  (Read 10506 times)

Offline Jason Thompson

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Re: Miracles vs. Science
« Reply #45 on: May 30, 2019, 05:36:10 AM »
http://www.maronite-institute.org/MARI/JMS/july00/Testimony_Of_Ratmond_Nader.htm

hi. any scientific explanations on how the marks were formed?

thnx

Many possible explanations exist. However, the testimony of one man without witnesses that it was a miracle counts for nothing whatsoever in the quest for explanations. If I was feeling cynical I could point out that he is more than capable of putting a handprint on his arm himself, by squeezing hard with his other hand, or even by passing out awkwardly with his hand under his arm for a few hours.

Once again, LionKing, I will remind you that an inability to provide a precise and verifiable scientific explanation does not make 'miracles' any more valid an explanation.
"There's this idea that everyone's opinion is equally valid. My arse! Bloke who was a professor of dentistry for forty years does NOT have a debate with some eejit who removes his teeth with string and a door!"  - Dara O'Briain

Offline LionKing

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Re: Miracles vs. Science
« Reply #46 on: May 30, 2019, 06:59:23 AM »
http://www.maronite-institute.org/MARI/JMS/july00/Testimony_Of_Ratmond_Nader.htm

hi. any scientific explanations on how the marks were formed?

thnx

Many possible explanations exist. However, the testimony of one man without witnesses that it was a miracle counts for nothing whatsoever in the quest for explanations. If I was feeling cynical I could point out that he is more than capable of putting a handprint on his arm himself, by squeezing hard with his other hand, or even by passing out awkwardly with his hand under his arm for a few hours.

Once again, LionKing, I will remind you that an inability to provide a precise and verifiable scientific explanation does not make 'miracles' any more valid an explanation.

I listened to his Arabic narrative..he took off his shirt before .. so he was exposed.. but I am trying to find a perfect scientific explanation for similar stories ..

I don't think he is lying because his life changed completely . however, I think it is some hallucinatory case.. similar to those of stigmata and alien abductions..

but for instance, stigmata are connected to hysteria, alien abductions to sleep paralysis as I read.. could there be a "perfect" explanation for similar cases or a scientific name for this case? if you need to know more information, I can address if I heard from him.

edited to add: I am also searching for an explanation of the burn that would not hurt.. a physician saw it as they said and said it is a burn . To me, this is similar to aliens leaving implants, scars and burns, but how exactly can he not feel pain even after everything ended? does this have anything similar? There is involved also the Oz factor (not feeling time) that is similar to alien abductions, telepathy as well.. but alien abductions involve fear and bad sexual experiences .. this is different as it is euphoric..
« Last Edit: May 30, 2019, 07:07:03 AM by LionKing »
“When you go through a hard period,
When everything seems to oppose you,
... When you feel you cannot even bear one more minute,
NEVER GIVE UP!
Because it is the time and place that the course will divert!”
 Rumi

Offline Jason Thompson

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Re: Miracles vs. Science
« Reply #47 on: May 30, 2019, 02:09:25 PM »
I am trying to find a perfect scientific explanation for similar stories ..

You won't find a 'perfect' scientific explanation, because anything approaching that requires a lot of testing and work that simply is not possible. An unexplained mark on someone's arm and some anecdotes doesn't offer much to go on.

Quote
I don't think he is lying because his life changed completely

He wouldn't be the first who changed their life on the back of a lie. I'm not saying he is, but the subsequent life change can't be used as evidence he isn't either.

Quote
I am also searching for an explanation of the burn that would not hurt.

Who says it didn't hurt? The only person who can testify to that is the person who got the burn. There's no objective evidence it didn't hurt. He says after the event that it didn't. Again, no corroboration. However there are instances of people not feeling pain for various nervous or psychological reasons.

In short, you may not find a fully satisfactory scientific explanation, but that doesn't make miracles a valid one. Just as not being able to identify an object in the sky conlusively doesn't make it any more likely to be an alien spacecraft. I do, however, commend your efforts to find an explanation rather than swallowing it whole as a miracle.
"There's this idea that everyone's opinion is equally valid. My arse! Bloke who was a professor of dentistry for forty years does NOT have a debate with some eejit who removes his teeth with string and a door!"  - Dara O'Briain

Offline LionKing

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Re: Miracles vs. Science
« Reply #48 on: June 01, 2019, 05:05:36 AM »
I was thinking to do a comparison between him and similar cases. For instance, I found from my readings that a person exhibiting stigmata was found to be hysteric. The weeping statues or pictures in his home were done by his family who were manipulating him. In another case, there was hemiplegia of hysteric origin misdiagnosed so when the person was healed due to suggestion it was considered a miracle in Lourdes. Also, in Asclepian temples, there was an interesting phenomena called dream healing where a dream is solicited and people see Asclepius healing them in dreams and wake up healed.
Combine these three cases and you can solve one case here that was said to have hemiplegia,had a dream where the saint healed her,woke up with scars and got healed. You can at least doubt strongly, although you did not examine her, that she had hysteric hemiplegia and those weeping statues or pictures in her home are done by her family who are manipulating her same as that man I mentioned above..the dream also was solicited by prayer, and by fasting and pain similar to what takes place in different cultures.. so it is very similar to cases studied and examined ..

I was hoping someone with similar experiences with patients who are similar to this man's case could offer a plausible diagnosis from an expert point of view . There are many things to be looked at. One of them is that he was kneeling and woke up kneeling..as if frozen..
Another thing he felt  very warm in the midst of the cold night. Are there some physiological changes that are scientifically observed under such circumstances of hallucination that can offer a plausible diagnosis?. Is there some disease or case that can connect all of what he says ? I hope if experts are here and want to comment they do.
“When you go through a hard period,
When everything seems to oppose you,
... When you feel you cannot even bear one more minute,
NEVER GIVE UP!
Because it is the time and place that the course will divert!”
 Rumi

Offline LionKing

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Re: Miracles vs. Science
« Reply #49 on: June 27, 2019, 02:21:13 AM »
OK, after reading I think ecstatic epileptic seizure can be one explanation.  I read many similarities such as feeling wind, getting warm, auditory and visual hallucinations of saints, God, etc.. accompanied by ecstasy .. so maybe this is the most plausible explanation.
“When you go through a hard period,
When everything seems to oppose you,
... When you feel you cannot even bear one more minute,
NEVER GIVE UP!
Because it is the time and place that the course will divert!”
 Rumi