Author Topic: The Trump Presidency  (Read 68742 times)

Offline MBDK

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #870 on: March 30, 2020, 12:18:35 AM »
How long before Trump boasts that they have more COVID-19 cases than anywhere else in the world?
How long before Pelosi is more reviled than Trump?
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Offline Obviousman

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #871 on: March 30, 2020, 02:54:43 AM »
How long before Trump boasts that they have more COVID-19 cases than anywhere else in the world?
How long before Pelosi is more reviled than Trump?
I don't get all the news over here. What is she doing?

Offline MBDK

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #872 on: March 30, 2020, 03:37:20 AM »
How long before Trump boasts that they have more COVID-19 cases than anywhere else in the world?
How long before Pelosi is more reviled than Trump?
I don't get all the news over here. What is she doing?
Apart from all the wasted time and money investigating Trump for Russian election collusion, and trying to impeach him on other grounds (when the whole WORLD knew it was useless), she held up the COVID-19 aid bill for Americans to force non-essential green deal and socialist riders onto it.  Recently, she accused Trump of killing Americans with his COVID-19 policies, despite the fact his early travel bans undoubtedly spared hundreds, if not thousands of lives, yet were criticized at the time by the Democrats. 

Here is an example, albeit from a conservative source (you wouldn't expect the liberal media to honestly condemn her vile rhetoric, would you?), of a response to her hateful discourse -
https://townhall.com/tipsheet/bronsonstocking/2020/03/29/graham-torches-pelosi-most-shameful-disgusting-statement-by-any-politician-in-modern-history-n2565939

Now, I know this topic is for Trump-bashing posts, but the absurdity of the lengths to which some people go, while abandoning their critical thinking abilities (if any) yet remaining silent on their own political representatives' failings, can be a real head-shaker.  I just like to point out that, if we decide to take unyielding sides in the current political environment here in the U.S., we are ALL residing in glass houses.
"It ain't what they call you, it's what you answer to." - W. C. Fields

"Laugh-a while you can, monkey-boy." - Lord John Whorfin

Offline gillianren

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #873 on: March 30, 2020, 11:18:34 AM »
Yeah, how dare she try to hold the President accountable to the rule of law?
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Offline gillianren

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #874 on: March 30, 2020, 11:19:08 AM »
Also, you do know that the Republican version of the bill basically would've been writing a blank check to Trump's hotels, right?
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Offline MBDK

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #875 on: March 30, 2020, 01:01:22 PM »
Also, you do know that the Republican version of the bill basically would've been writing a blank check to Trump's hotels, right?
An absurd projection of the original contents.
 
Now please re-read THIS carefully, as it is, and has been, my entire complaint:
"I just like to point out that, if we decide to take unyielding sides in the current political environment here in the U.S., we are ALL residing in glass houses."

Are you being blinded by the spider-webs in your structure?
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"Laugh-a while you can, monkey-boy." - Lord John Whorfin

Offline jfb

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #876 on: March 30, 2020, 03:43:09 PM »
I want everyone to know I'm doing my absolute best to behave.  I have not engaged in this particular discussion directly because I do not want to get banned, but I can't let this one slide.  It just may take a couple of days to show up as I may have to edit (and re-edit, and re-re-edit) some ... colorful ... expressions, although I won't guarantee a total family-friendly rant.  I'm accustomed to being more direct on other forums. 

How long before Trump boasts that they have more COVID-19 cases than anywhere else in the world?
How long before Pelosi is more reviled than Trump?
I don't get all the news over here. What is she doing?
Apart from all the wasted time and money investigating Trump for Russian election collusion,

The bulk of the Mueller investigation took place in 2017 and 2018, when the GOP held the House majority and Paul Ryan was speaker and Devin "Mooooo" Nunes was the chair of the HPSCI.  The Democrats were not in power when the decision was made to launch the investigation in the House, nor were they in power when the bulk of indictments were issued, nor were they in power when Manafort and Cohen were convicted for real crimes (fraud, campaign finance violations) above and beyond lying to investigators. 

Nothing was directly tied to Trump thanks to a coordinated obstruction effort between the WH and Republican Congressional leadership (such as allowing witnesses to simply refuse to answer subpoenas).  Nothing about that investigation shocked me more than discovering Jeff "Weed Whacker" Sessions had the most integrity in the entire goddamned administration.

Yes, Nancy and the rest of the House Democrats pushed for the investigation, which was warranted based on the intel gathered to that point.  Hell, "Russia, if you're listening" was a GIANT RED FLAG that should have caused the GOP to drop Trump like a lump of hot plutonium all by itself (and would have, not that long ago).  Once the Democrats took power they should have used Congress' inherent contempt power to frog-march witnesses to the Hill. 
 
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and trying to impeach him on other grounds (when the whole WORLD knew it was useless),


Impeachment isn't just about removing someone from office, although Trump should have been before things got this far

Trump withheld critical military aid from an ally against a shared geopolitical adversary in exchange for a political favor.  Not for an official policy position, not for a commitment to shared defense, not for one of a hundred other legitimate strings that we have tied to aid in the past, but for a political favor against a domestic rival.

There's a term known as "normalization of deviance" - the gradual acceptance of practices that were previously unacceptable.  As deviant behavior is repeated without catastrophic results, it slowly becomes the new norm.  The term comes up a lot in discussion of the Challenger disaster, and how NASA progressively let more and more previously unacceptable practices slide, until they needlessly killed 7 astronauts.  And then did it again a couple of decades later. 

Doing nothing accelerates that normalization.  By bringing up articles of impeachment, the Democrats were at least taking a stand to say that hey, this behavior is unacceptable, it has always been unacceptable, and it should be called out as such.

The fact that you think it was a waste of time means you are part of that normalization of deviance.  That you and so many others are just fine with a President using the resources of foreign governments (friendly or otherwise) to go after his domestic political rivals means that deviant behavior will become the new norm.  Which means you better keep your goddamned mouth shut when a Democrat starts doing it, because if you think it's acceptable for Trump, then it's just as acceptable for Biden. 

I mean, ask yourself honestly, would you have objected if Obama had used his power to pressure, say, the Saudis into announcing an investigation into Don Jr. or Eric for the purpose of embarrassing or discrediting their father?  For me, the answer is yes.  I would be genuinely surprised if your answer was no (if it is no, and you are cool with this regardless of who does it - we are so doomed). 

This is the horror of this (mal)administration.  So many lovely precedents are being set regarding the expansion of Executive power and behavior and the so-called party of small government is cheering it on loudly and enthusiastically, never considering for an instant that this same expansion of power can and will be used against them at the earliest opportunity. 

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she held up the COVID-19 aid bill for Americans to force non-essential green deal and socialist riders onto it.

The primary objections to the relief bill as it was written were that it gave Mnuchin sole discretion to disburse $500 bn (yes, Virginia, half a trillion dollars) with no oversight, no guarantees workers would be retained, no assurance that it wouldn't personally enrich the Trumps, etc. 

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  Recently, she accused Trump of killing Americans with his COVID-19 policies, despite the fact his early travel bans undoubtedly spared hundreds, if not thousands of lives, yet were criticized at the time by the Democrats. 

We have community spread in all 50 states.  We're still in the exponential part of the curve and nowhere near the inflection point.  We've hit over 155,000 confirmed cases, over 2800 deaths, and it isn't showing any signs of slowing down.  The travel bans did dick-all.  It's here.  It's entrenched.  It's not just killing the old and the sick.  The average rate of increase in deaths over the last 12 days is 1.3, based on the Worldometer numbers.  If that rate continues to hold (and I have no reason to doubt otherwise, people aren't practicing social distancing for shit), around 6000 people will be dead by the end of the week.  Beyond that things start to get ugly.  If that 1.3 rate holds for the entire month of April, then we could be looking at close to a million deaths.  While I think 1.3 will hold for the week, I doubt it will hold for the entire month.  If the average rate from here on out is, say, 1.15, then we're looking at "only" 225k dead by April 30. A drop to 1.1 will limit deaths to 54K.  But that only happens if a) people stay home, b) testing ramps up so we can more effectively target resources, and c) a viable treatment shows up in the next couple of weeks. 

There's still plenty of headroom in the S part of the SIR model.  50% of the US population lives in just 144 counties.  Over 150 million people are concentrated together in large, highly interconnected urban areas with lots of opportunities to infect each other.  With little to no testing, we have no idea who's sick, who's put other people at risk, or where new clusters are going to pop up. 

Had Trump listened to health experts and his own intelligence community, we'd have been ramping up testing in late December/early January, aggressively testing and tracking everyone entering the country from affected areas, and isolating and quarantining everyone who'd been exposed, and we could have kept the total number of cases in the dozens, maybe low hundreds, and it would be done. 

But thanks to his actions, his insistence on downplaying it as a hoax during the critical weeks it was gaining a toehold in the country, we're going to celebrate if we manage to keep the death toll to "only" 200,000 or so (best case scenario at this point), and we'll be in this mode for months

200,000 deaths is a failure.  An abject, wholly unacceptable, wholly avoidable failure.  And that failure will lie with the man who said, and I fucking quote, "No, I don't accept any responsibility". 

« Last Edit: March 30, 2020, 04:01:48 PM by jfb »

Offline MBDK

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #877 on: March 30, 2020, 05:40:55 PM »
I'm accustomed to being more direct on other forums. 
I personally have no problem with that.
Yes, Nancy and the rest of the House Democrats pushed for the investigation, which was warranted based on the intel gathered to that point.
Your opinion, as well as that of many others, but ultimately one that was unfounded regarding its stated purpose.  NONE of your highly touted convictions had any direct links to Trump/Russian collusion.  But it sure seems to make you feel good to bring such irrelevance up, anyway.
Hell, "Russia, if you're listening" was a GIANT RED FLAG that should have caused the GOP to drop Trump like a lump of hot plutonium all by itself (and would have, not that long ago).
They are not so easily fooled,as others.
Impeachment isn't just about removing someone from office, although Trump should have been before things got this far
Agree with former, not latter.  This impeachment was all political.  A wish for earlier impeachment is just your prejudicial wish.
Trump withheld critical military aid from an ally against a shared geopolitical adversary in exchange for a political favor.
Yawn...previously discussed, and again, comes down to conjecture.  No matter how many times you whine otherwise, it does NOT change that fact.
There's a term known as "normalization of deviance" - the gradual acceptance of practices that were previously unacceptable.
True.  BOTH sides do it.  YOU, too, by defending Pelosci's actions, among other things.
Which means you better keep your goddamned mouth shut when a Democrat starts doing it, because if you think it's acceptable for Trump, then it's just as acceptable for Biden.
 
See?
I mean, ask yourself honestly, would you have objected if Obama had used his power to pressure, say, the Saudis into announcing an investigation into Don Jr. or Eric for the purpose of embarrassing or discrediting their father?  For me, the answer is yes.
Yes, for those stated reasons.  To speculate Trump was trying doing to do the same thing for the same stated reasons is only that.
The primary objections to the relief bill as it was written were that it gave Mnuchin sole discretion to disburse $500 bn (yes, Virginia, half a trillion dollars) with no oversight, no guarantees workers would be retained, no assurance that it wouldn't personally enrich the Trumps, etc. 
Only partially true.  I suggest you revisit that statement after you do a little better research.  It still does not justify Pelosi's unrelated demands.
We have community spread in all 50 states...
I am familiar with the statistics and various projections.
Had Trump listened to health experts and his own intelligence community...
If done perfectly, you could be right, but this is hindsight looking at a time when much of what we now know either wasn't proven, or had not yet come to light. 
we're going to celebrate if we manage to keep the death toll to "only" 200,000 or so (best case scenario at this point), and we'll be in this mode for months.
A very pessimistic outlook, and not shared by many leading experts.  Dr. Fauci's current "worst case" scenario is 100,000.  Still, that does not take away from the tragedy of this disease.
"No, I don't accept any responsibility". 
Yep.  A sad indication of his dismal leadership skills.  Where is Harry S. Truman when you need him?
"It ain't what they call you, it's what you answer to." - W. C. Fields

"Laugh-a while you can, monkey-boy." - Lord John Whorfin

Offline gillianren

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #878 on: March 30, 2020, 06:25:36 PM »
Hmmm, who was it who didn't see the problem with firing a pandemic response team earlier?
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Offline LunarOrbit

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #879 on: March 30, 2020, 06:54:30 PM »
I want everyone to know I'm doing my absolute best to behave.

I appreciate the effort it has taken you in this case.

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200,000 deaths is a failure.  An abject, wholly unacceptable, wholly avoidable failure.  And that failure will lie with the man who said, and I fucking quote, "No, I don't accept any responsibility".

I agree, 100%. And you reminded me of this commercial that President Trump doesn't want people to see for some reason...

It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth.
I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth.
I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
- Neil Armstrong (1930-2012)

Offline LunarOrbit

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #880 on: March 30, 2020, 07:10:32 PM »
For MBDK:

It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth.
I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth.
I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
- Neil Armstrong (1930-2012)

Offline LunarOrbit

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #881 on: March 30, 2020, 10:03:02 PM »
I wasn't going to bother responding to this, but I might as well.

Apart from all the wasted time and money investigating Trump for Russian election collusion,

How on Earth is protecting national security a waste of time or money? If there was even the slightest possibility that Trump was being influenced by Putin it needed to be investigated. This is for your own good. Why don't you get that? Trump isn't royalty, he isn't a god, he isn't above the law, and he can be replaced with someone better. Why do people still protect and defend him? Throw him to the curb.

There were (and still are) concerns about Trump's loyalty, and his susceptibility to foreign influence. It would be foolish to not investigate him. Investigations aren't done only when all of the facts are known. You get the facts from the investigation. You don't ignore a serious threat to the country just because you don't know the outcome of the investigation ahead of time.

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and trying to impeach him on other grounds (when the whole WORLD knew it was useless)

As someone who inhabits this world, I'll say that I don't think it was useless at all.

Sure, it didn't get Trump removed from office, but it exposed pretty much every Republican in Congress as corrupt. It showed that they were more concerned about staying in Trump's good books than they were in doing the right thing. It showed that they were willing to ignore his corruption to protect their re-election chances. It showed that the checks & balances that are supposed to protect the citizens of the United States from a dictatorship are powerless.

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Recently, she accused Trump of killing Americans with his COVID-19 policies, despite the fact his early travel bans undoubtedly spared hundreds, if not thousands of lives, yet were criticized at the time by the Democrats.

Remember when you said you weren't here to defend Trump? Ha!

I didn't criticize Trump for banning travel from China. I criticized him for completely dropping the ball from that point on. I criticized him for trying to keep the number of infected people artificially low (by keeping people on cruise ships, or by not testing people) so that it wouldn't look bad for him. I criticized him for calling it hoax for two months when he could have been doing more to prepare for the oncoming pandemic. I criticized him for making this about him by vindictively punishing states who didn't praise him enough.

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Here is an example, albeit from a conservative source...

I'm sure it will be totally unbiased then...  ::)

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Now, I know this topic is for Trump-bashing posts, but the absurdity of the lengths to which some people go, while abandoning their critical thinking abilities (if any) yet remaining silent on their own political representatives' failings, can be a real head-shaker.

You are going to absurd lengths to polish the Trump turd. His ineptitude is going to cost many Americans their lives in the next weeks or months, and your lack of critical thinking skills has blinded you to that. And that hypocrisy is why I finally gave up on you. You are incapable of seeing the same behaviour that you criticize us for in yourself.
It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth.
I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth.
I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
- Neil Armstrong (1930-2012)

Offline gillianren

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #882 on: March 31, 2020, 11:52:39 AM »
I'm pretty sure literally everyone in this entire thread has been willing to acknowledge failings in their own leaders except the guy who wasn't going to defend Trump.  I and a lot of my friends are quite possibly going to be in a serious ethical bind come November--I believe only the Democratic nominee has a chance of genuinely beating Trump, and I believe there are credible accusations against Joe Biden--but that doesn't change what Trump is doing.
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Offline Bryanpoprobson

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #883 on: April 02, 2020, 02:26:09 AM »
President Donald Trump on Sunday suggested that nurses and doctors in New York, the area in the U.S. hardest-hit thus far by the coronavirus outbreak, are stealing and selling facemasks and other protective gear meant to keep them safe as they handle an unprecedented influx of patients sick with the disease spreading across the country.

"Where are the masks going, are they going out the backdoor?" Trump said, implying that healthcare workers were smuggling personal proteective equipment (PPE) out of hospitals for resale on the black market.

"There's something going on. I don't think it's hoarding. I think it's maybe worse than hoarding," the president added, telling the assembled reporters to look into it.

Really? He is mentally unstable, surely?
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Offline Obviousman

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #884 on: April 02, 2020, 04:52:04 AM »
I don't know about that but - IMHO - he is un-presidential and not fit to lead a country.