Author Topic: Question about Apollo CSM photographic mapping of the surface  (Read 2088 times)

Offline Allan F

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Question about Apollo CSM photographic mapping of the surface
« on: September 10, 2016, 01:47:17 PM »
How did they determine exactly where each photo was taken?
Well, it is like this: The truth doesn't need insults. Insults are the refuge of a darkened mind, a mind that refuses to open and see. Foul language can't outcompete knowledge. And knowledge is the result of education. Education is the result of the wish to know more, not less.

Offline Kiwi

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Re: Question about Apollo CSM photographic mapping of the surface
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2016, 06:11:26 AM »
Do you mean:-

1. Where exactly the CSM was whenever particular photos were taken
or
2. The exact positions of surface features in the photos
or
3. Both?

I can't help much with the details, but have you studied the many materials at the Apollo Lunar Surface Journals and Flight Journals for the relevant missions?
http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/alsj/frame.html
http://history.nasa.gov/afj/

For instance, the main ALSJ page for Apollo 15 lists both "A15 Lunar Photography NSSDC" and "Press Kit", which have details of the mapping and panoramic cameras. 

The Press Kits are one of the first places to go because they are written in fairly simple lay terms for the media, and then there are the scientific documents for more detailed information.

National Geographic Vol. 141, No. 2, February 1972, "To the Mountains of the Moon" by Kenneth F Weaver, pages 230-265, includes, in its Apollo 15 article, a few diagrams and descriptions of the mapping and panoramic cameras. For instance, on page 249:

Quote
The SIM's mapping camera shoots overlapping pictures (left, light squares), while a laser altimeter measures distance to the moon's surface (dashed red lines). Simultaneously a stellar camera photographs a star field to determine the attitude of the spacecraft.

Another camera takes panoramic exposures (dark area). By photographing the same 210-mile-wide swath from successive positions, a stereoscopic view is obtained.

There are more details on pages 250 and 251, including precision and accuracy of the cameras and laser altimeter.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2016, 07:03:32 AM by Kiwi »
Don't criticize what you can't understand. — Bob Dylan, “The Times They Are A-Changin'” (1963)
Some people think they are thinking when they are really rearranging their prejudices and superstitions. — Edward R. Murrow (1908–65)

Offline Allan F

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Re: Question about Apollo CSM photographic mapping of the surface
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2016, 11:32:50 AM »
Thank you for that. It was (1) I was looking for. As I read it, two cameras were in use - one pointed down, one pointed up. Some hoax believer I have been argueing with claims the up-camera pictures aren't on the net, and therefore don't exist. I asked him politely write to NASA and ask for the pictures. He claimed he did - and called too. We'll see.
Well, it is like this: The truth doesn't need insults. Insults are the refuge of a darkened mind, a mind that refuses to open and see. Foul language can't outcompete knowledge. And knowledge is the result of education. Education is the result of the wish to know more, not less.

Offline onebigmonkey

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Re: Question about Apollo CSM photographic mapping of the surface
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2016, 02:09:19 PM »
I've also hunted high and low for the stellar camera images, be nice if they turned up one day!


Offline sts60

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Re: Question about Apollo CSM photographic mapping of the surface
« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2016, 12:32:29 AM »
I started to look for the stellar mapping camera images, and the NSSDC sent me a couple of not very useful samples.  I've been meaning to go back and see what I can do to obtain the entire set with ancillary data.  I'll report what I find. 

Offline Glom

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Re: Question about Apollo CSM photographic mapping of the surface
« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2016, 04:31:52 AM »
They look at the meta data, which has a timestamp, right?

Offline Allan F

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Re: Question about Apollo CSM photographic mapping of the surface
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2016, 04:57:57 AM »
Metadata? On a FILM?
Well, it is like this: The truth doesn't need insults. Insults are the refuge of a darkened mind, a mind that refuses to open and see. Foul language can't outcompete knowledge. And knowledge is the result of education. Education is the result of the wish to know more, not less.

Offline onebigmonkey

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Re: Question about Apollo CSM photographic mapping of the surface
« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2016, 08:45:22 AM »
I started to look for the stellar mapping camera images, and the NSSDC sent me a couple of not very useful samples.  I've been meaning to go back and see what I can do to obtain the entire set with ancillary data.  I'll report what I find.

I'd be interested in seeing the samples - it would go well with one of my pages :)

Offline Kiwi

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Re: Question about Apollo CSM photographic mapping of the surface
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2016, 08:05:36 AM »
...As I read it, two cameras were in use - one pointed down, one pointed up.

No, three. See quote in reply 1.

1. Mapping camera pointing down.
2. Panoramic camera pointing down.
3. Stellar camera pointing at about 90 degrees to the other two (sideways).

I wouldn't be surprised if the stellar photos were never printed and released because they were specialist items used for navigation information following the mission in conjunction with info from the altimeter. They would probably have been taken on very high-speed film to be of any use and might only show the brightest stars.

Expecting to get hold of the results would be similar to expecting readouts from the altimeter.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2016, 08:25:53 AM by Kiwi »
Don't criticize what you can't understand. — Bob Dylan, “The Times They Are A-Changin'” (1963)
Some people think they are thinking when they are really rearranging their prejudices and superstitions. — Edward R. Murrow (1908–65)

Offline onebigmonkey

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Re: Question about Apollo CSM photographic mapping of the surface
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2016, 08:55:39 AM »
Some more technical detail in documents from here:

http://apollo.sese.asu.edu/SUPPORT_DATA/index.html

eg

http://apollo.sese.asu.edu/SUPPORT_DATA/AS15_SIMBAY_SUMMARY.pdf

http://apollo.sese.asu.edu/SUPPORT_DATA/Apollo16_APE_Data_Book.pdf

including this quote:

"The stellar film has fixed data recording including a square array of reseau crosses, four edge fiducials and the lens serial number. Auxiliary data, time and altitude are recorded in binary format at center of exposure time."

So yes, metadata ;)

Offline Allan F

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Re: Question about Apollo CSM photographic mapping of the surface
« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2016, 10:38:24 AM »
OK.
Well, it is like this: The truth doesn't need insults. Insults are the refuge of a darkened mind, a mind that refuses to open and see. Foul language can't outcompete knowledge. And knowledge is the result of education. Education is the result of the wish to know more, not less.