Author Topic: Albedo - or how my mind wanders when I'm on deadline  (Read 2954 times)

Offline Sus_pilot

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Albedo - or how my mind wanders when I'm on deadline
« on: August 29, 2015, 05:12:46 PM »
I'm supposed to be finishing an article for my organization's newsletter, but I'm on deadline, so I'm thinking of everything but my article.  My long-suffering editor is used to such behavior, so I suspect that I get a special "Chairman's deadline" different from everyone else's.

Anyway, I got to thinking about HB's and how, even if we took them to the moon (Moon? - what's correct?) and showed them the landing sites,  the footprints, the equipment left behind, hell, even if we could find Alan Bean's self-timer, they'd still cry hoax. 

And somehow the thought of footprints got me to thinking about how, when we finally do settle and exploit the moon (something that was supposed to happen in my lifetime), we would have to preserve those first sites and footprints, at least the ones near the descent stages.  And that got me to thinking about the tangible proof, visible from Earth, that we've been there. 

Obviously, as Arthur C. Clarke pointed out in one of his stories, settlements would have the effect of putting stars where there could be none - lights between the horns of the crescent moon.  But what about the trampling of the dust by humans, and, more likely visible, equipment around those settlements?  Although no details would be visible, would the surface around those settlements be noticeably brighter or darker?  My own guess is that it would be brighter, based on nothing more than the famous wheel trail photograph from Apollo 14.  But then, it might be sun-angle dependent, if there's an effect at all, as I've taken lot's of pictures of snow trails being lighter or darker, depending on the how the light hits them.

Anyway, I'll turn this over to people lots more knowledgeable than me here.  I'm going back to mulling over how to make young flight instructors understand their professional responsibilities...

Offline bknight

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Re: Albedo - or how my mind wanders when I'm on deadline
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2015, 05:27:50 PM »
I'm supposed to be finishing an article for my organization's newsletter, but I'm on deadline, so I'm thinking of everything but my article.  My long-suffering editor is used to such behavior, so I suspect that I get a special "Chairman's deadline" different from everyone else's.

Anyway, I got to thinking about HB's and how, even if we took them to the moon (Moon? - what's correct?) and showed them the landing sites,  the footprints, the equipment left behind, hell, even if we could find Alan Bean's self-timer, they'd still cry hoax. 

And somehow the thought of footprints got me to thinking about how, when we finally do settle and exploit the moon (something that was supposed to happen in my lifetime), we would have to preserve those first sites and footprints, at least the ones near the descent stages.  And that got me to thinking about the tangible proof, visible from Earth, that we've been there. 

Obviously, as Arthur C. Clarke pointed out in one of his stories, settlements would have the effect of putting stars where there could be none - lights between the horns of the crescent moon.  But what about the trampling of the dust by humans, and, more likely visible, equipment around those settlements?  Although no details would be visible, would the surface around those settlements be noticeably brighter or darker?  My own guess is that it would be brighter, based on nothing more than the famous wheel trail photograph from Apollo 14.  But then, it might be sun-angle dependent, if there's an effect at all, as I've taken lot's of pictures of snow trails being lighter or darker, depending on the how the light hits them.

Anyway, I'll turn this over to people lots more knowledgeable than me here.  I'm going back to mulling over how to make young flight instructors understand their professional responsibilities...
I'm sure that those that didn't go would simply call the ones that went paid shills.
The Blunder used some LRO images that do indeed show a marked difference in recognition versus sunlight angle.
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
Eugene Cernan

Online mako88sb

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Re: Albedo - or how my mind wanders when I'm on deadline
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2015, 02:51:50 PM »
Yes, Hunchbacked is already on record that if anything man-made is found on the moon, you can be sure it wasn't placed there with 1960's technology. Others have also said that they've had 40+ years to stage things.

Offline smartcooky

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Re: Albedo - or how my mind wanders when I'm on deadline
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2015, 03:41:38 PM »
Yes, Hunchbacked is already on record that if anything man-made is found on the moon, you can be sure it wasn't placed there with 1960's technology. Others have also said that they've had 40+ years to stage things.

To get to the moon with the weight of equipment they would have to take there to stage the landing sites. you need a bloody huge rocket, the size of a Saturn V.

Question: How do you launch several of those and keep it a secret?

Answer: You can't. Its not possible, less so the further after the 1960's you try.

► What you can assert without evidence, I can dismiss without evidence
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► Conspiracism is a shortcut to the illusion of erudition

Offline bknight

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Re: Albedo - or how my mind wanders when I'm on deadline
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2015, 04:51:58 PM »

To get to the moon with the weight of equipment they would have to take there to stage the landing sites. you need a bloody huge rocket, the size of a Saturn V.

Question: How do you launch several of those and keep it a secret?

Answer: You can't. Its not possible, less so the further after the 1960's you try.
Ah but what about stealth technology? Or our secret hidden Moon base still in operation?
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
Eugene Cernan

Offline Zakalwe

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Re: Albedo - or how my mind wanders when I'm on deadline
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2015, 02:09:11 AM »
Ah but what about stealth technology? Or our secret hidden Moon base still in operation?

Saturn V launches were visible from 500 miles away. Seismographs hundreds of miles away picked up the launch. Amateur astrophotographers in England imaged the LOX dumps from the third stage.  http://www.astr.ua.edu/keel/space/apollo.html

Pretty damn hard to hide such things.
"The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.' " - Isaac Asimov

Offline Sus_pilot

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Re: Albedo - or how my mind wanders when I'm on deadline
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2015, 02:45:50 AM »
All well and good. 

I'm still curious to everyone's opinion regarding the question as to if we had built a base by now, say one the size of Clavius in 2001, would that site be noticeably lighter or darker from Earth?

I just wish it had happened in my lifetime...

Offline bknight

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Re: Albedo - or how my mind wanders when I'm on deadline
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2015, 07:23:49 AM »


Saturn V launches were visible from 500 miles away. Seismographs hundreds of miles away picked up the launch. Amateur astrophotographers in England imaged the LOX dumps from the third stage.  http://www.astr.ua.edu/keel/space/apollo.html

Pretty damn hard to hide such things.
I should have put a roll eyes at the end of my comment to prevent any miscommunication. Really a pun was intended.
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
Eugene Cernan

Offline bknight

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Re: Albedo - or how my mind wanders when I'm on deadline
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2015, 07:28:26 AM »
All well and good. 

I'm still curious to everyone's opinion regarding the question as to if we had built a base by now, say one the size of Clavius in 2001, would that site be noticeably lighter or darker from Earth?

I just wish it had happened in my lifetime...
If the size were large enough then Hubble might be able to image it although I think the size is like 250 m, not sure of the exact size.  Lunar night may have enable a sensing of lighting if the lighting were intense enough and spread over a large enough area to be visible on Earth.
I too wish one would have been built in my lifetime, but the liberal faction led Congress/President crushed that idea in favor of more social programs.
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
Eugene Cernan

Offline darren r

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Re: Albedo - or how my mind wanders when I'm on deadline
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2015, 11:42:09 AM »
There was a guy commenting on this story http://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/aug/06/dark-side-of-the-moon-captured-by-nasa-satellite-16m-kilometres-from-earth#comments in the Guardian a few weeks ago who (repeatedly) claimed that the crater Jackson was actually a secret moon base. No amount of argument could persuade him that the long, straight, light-coloured lines emanating from it were simple impact ejecta - he was convinced that it was some kind of surface transport system, presumably similar to Moonbase Alpha's travel tubes in Space:1999. Even after the existence of very similar features on the near side, such as Tycho, was pointed out to him, he still couldn't see it.
" I went to the God D**n Moon!" Byng Gordon, 8th man on the Moon.