Author Topic: Miracles vs. Science  (Read 9017 times)

Offline LionKing

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“When you go through a hard period,
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Offline BDL

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Re: Miracles vs. Science
« Reply #31 on: September 12, 2018, 07:38:51 PM »
https://jamesbishopblog.com/2017/02/10/doctors-confirm-womans-miracle-healing-from-irreversible-blindness-after-attending-church/

If you have any comments on this please post.
Do they have the medical records that prove she was blind?
As far as I know, there is only the mere claim that God restored her eyesight.
The evidence, unfortunately, seems to be nonexistent.

I think this would become pretty widespread news and doctors, biologists, researchers, etc. would be testing her to find out what really happened. Especially since, if they did find out what caused this, it might be the cure for this “irreversible blindness”.

And why can this not be classified as chance?
After all, millions of people pray for something to happen or for something to be healed but it just never happens. So why now would God pick some random lady over the homeless, the sick, the dying, the lost, and the broken? Rationally, if it turns out she wasn’t lying about her blindness, then you can presume that it was up to chance.

There is nothing in the universe that is unexplainable with science. The Christian Apologetics site that this was posted on seems to disagree with medical science, and instead goes for a theological explanation. I don’t think an actual doctor is going to say “there is no medical explanation” as the article suggests happened.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2018, 08:42:46 PM by BDL »
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Offline LionKing

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Re: Miracles vs. Science
« Reply #32 on: September 13, 2018, 01:31:31 AM »
Watch on youtube "Dafne  Gutierrez healed through intercession St. Sharbel chruch" where the doctor following her say they can't explain.
“When you go through a hard period,
When everything seems to oppose you,
... When you feel you cannot even bear one more minute,
NEVER GIVE UP!
Because it is the time and place that the course will divert!”
 Rumi

Offline BDL

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Re: Miracles vs. Science
« Reply #33 on: September 13, 2018, 07:45:50 AM »
Watch on youtube "Dafne  Gutierrez healed through intercession St. Sharbel chruch" where the doctor following her say they can't explain.
I did, but there’s not much there.
Here’s some possible explanations:
1. She lied to the doctors about the symptoms and they just took her word for it. Intercranial Hypertension is diagnosed solely by symptoms (as far as I know) so there isn’t really any physical examination you can do.
2. Positive reaction to carbonic anhydrase inhibitors potentially caused by decrease in overall stress and proper dosing of medication
3. She didn’t lie to the doctors (technically) but she accidentally misinformed the doctors, or the doctors made a mistake and misdiagnosed her.

I don’t think there’s really enough investigation on this case, but it’s irrational for any medical professional to stop with the biological examinations and just pin this on magic.

Everything in the universe is explainable with science. Whether or not people can find that explanation.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2018, 07:57:59 AM by BDL »
“One small step for [a] man, one giant leap for mankind.” - Neil Armstrong, 1969

Offline BDL

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Re: Miracles vs. Science
« Reply #34 on: September 13, 2018, 08:04:11 AM »
I need more information and scientists need to actually do some more testing.

I don’t accept magic as a plausible explanation for anything.
“One small step for [a] man, one giant leap for mankind.” - Neil Armstrong, 1969

Offline LionKing

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Re: Miracles vs. Science
« Reply #35 on: September 13, 2018, 03:47:54 PM »
Well, I wonder why it did not occur to the physicians who reviewed her medical records what you are saying. However, if anyone knows of books or materials that investigate thoroughly similar cases, especially those who have visions after which they are cured, I would be interested to read.
“When you go through a hard period,
When everything seems to oppose you,
... When you feel you cannot even bear one more minute,
NEVER GIVE UP!
Because it is the time and place that the course will divert!”
 Rumi

Offline BDL

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Re: Miracles vs. Science
« Reply #36 on: September 13, 2018, 07:30:53 PM »
Yes, I’m unsure why there aren’t more people investigating her claims.
I would guess that most of them don’t really care for it.
“One small step for [a] man, one giant leap for mankind.” - Neil Armstrong, 1969

Offline jfb

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Re: Miracles vs. Science
« Reply #37 on: January 10, 2019, 12:45:30 PM »
https://jamesbishopblog.com/2017/02/10/doctors-confirm-womans-miracle-healing-from-irreversible-blindness-after-attending-church/

If you have any comments on this please post.

Sorry, late to this particular party.

First comment - The sourcing in this article is somewhat suspect.  I'm curious to know what institution(s) Dr. Borik is associated with, if any. 

Second comment - Dr. Borik's statement is that "pressure in the brain is so high that often times it strangulates the optic nerve".  Not always, but often.  It's possible that in this particular case, the pressure on the nerve was severe enough to affect vision, but not so severe as to cause permanent damage. 

Third comment - It's also possible that the actual cause of Gutierrez' blindness was misdiagnosed.  Doctors do make mistakes sometimes. 

If the contention is that Gutierrez' optic nerve spontaneously regenerated from dead or damaged tissue, then Dr. Borik should be writing up papers for the major medical journals, as that's something that just doesn't happen.  So I'm inclined to believe that this is a case where either the cause was misdiagnosed, or this was a rare case where the hypertension didn't result in permanent damage. 

Offline bobdude11

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Re: Miracles vs. Science
« Reply #38 on: January 11, 2019, 01:01:32 PM »
Yes Cat I said there is spontaneous remission, what I am discussing is the vision and operation reported by not only her but many other people. But I think it is not our, or my capability now to investigate it .. it will need close investigation..

-or- is it possible she never had it in the first place (misdiagnosed) and the physician, to protect him/her self, is simply using this as a 'miraculous no more cancer' diagnosis?
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Online Echnaton

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Re: Miracles vs. Science
« Reply #39 on: January 11, 2019, 03:33:47 PM »
One of Dunnings laws of investigating the paranormal is to see if the event actually happened.  A miracle reported reported on a theological blog from a far off country is a pretty good candidate for being skeptical that the event actually occurred. Add the predisposition of the woman to look to religious explanations for natural events, inferred from her shrine to the Virgin Mary, and there is even more reason to be skeptical. 

The miracle needs to be shown to be true before one speculates on a natural cause.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2019, 03:37:32 PM by Echnaton »
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Offline jfb

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Re: Miracles vs. Science
« Reply #40 on: January 17, 2019, 11:47:37 AM »
A miracle reported reported on a theological blog from a far off country is a pretty good candidate for being skeptical that the event actually occurred.

I wouldn't characterize Arizona as a "far off country", at least not by geographical standards.

Offline Allan F

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Re: Miracles vs. Science
« Reply #41 on: January 18, 2019, 02:04:33 PM »
Well, it is like this: The truth doesn't need insults. Insults are the refuge of a darkened mind, a mind that refuses to open and see. Foul language can't outcompete knowledge. And knowledge is the result of education. Education is the result of the wish to know more, not less.

Online Echnaton

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Re: Miracles vs. Science
« Reply #42 on: January 18, 2019, 04:37:34 PM »
A miracle reported reported on a theological blog from a far off country is a pretty good candidate for being skeptical that the event actually occurred.



I wouldn't characterize Arizona as a "far off country", at least not by geographical standards.

The blog is from South Africa.  That is nearly antipodal to Arizona where the news report is from. And to me. It seems someone in South Africa would have no opportunity to do actual reporting on this for a blog.
The sun shone, having no alternative, on the nothing new. —Samuel Beckett

Offline gillianren

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Re: Miracles vs. Science
« Reply #43 on: January 19, 2019, 11:51:06 AM »
Yeah, that had been my thought.  If it were someone from New Mexico--or even New Jersey!--reporting on it, that would be one thing.  But it's clearly someone with no opportunity to have first-hand knowledge of the case.
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