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Apollo Discussions => The Hoax Theory => Topic started by: skeptic_UK on August 25, 2014, 05:40:35 PM

Title: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: skeptic_UK on August 25, 2014, 05:40:35 PM
Hi there. I'm new to the forum so please bear with me.

I've always had a passing interest in the moon hoax and do believe it was faked myself. I'd love to read more on the subject though bar what websites have to offer.

Are there any decent books out there which cover the hoax, attempts to debunk the hoax theory or even fiction based on the moon hoax conspiracy.

Look forward to your replies!
Thanks!
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on August 25, 2014, 05:47:24 PM
You may have been misled slightly by the name of the site, which refers to its original owners.  The regular posters here all believe Apollo was real.

There are a number of books available claiming hoaxed Moon landings, but they are all abysmally researched and have absolutely no credibility among space scientists, historians, etc.

The first one was We Never Went to the Moon by Bill Kaysing.  He wrote it in attempt to embarrass the U.S. government over its treatment of Vietnam war veterans.

There is also NASA Mooned America by Ralph Rene.  As I said, abysmally researched.  Rene doesn't know much about space science.

The longest is Dark Moon by David Percy and Mary Bennett.  It covers claims of hoaxed Moon landings and just about every other controversial subject under the sun.

The only book available for debunking is Bad Astronomy by Phil Plait, but he confines his remarks to a single chapter.  This forum is a good resource, but I'll also recommend my web site http://www.clavius.org
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Glom on August 25, 2014, 06:13:17 PM
Hi there. I'm new to the forum so please bear with me.

I've always had a passing interest in the moon hoax and do believe it was faked myself. I'd love to read more on the subject though bar what websites have to offer.

Are there any decent books out there which cover the hoax, attempts to debunk the hoax theory or even fiction based on the moon hoax conspiracy.

Look forward to your replies!
Thanks!
Passing interest often goes together with mild hoax belief. It can be easy to get hoodwinked by the conspiracy theorists. It's only when you look at it in more depth that full scale of the absurdity becomes apparent.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Luke Pemberton on August 25, 2014, 06:15:36 PM
I've always had a passing interest in the moon hoax and do believe it was faked myself. I'd love to read more on the subject though bar what websites have to offer.

I haven't had the oppurtunity to engage in discussion with you, so I won't pass judgement based on your interest in the moon hoax. You are entitled to your view point and opinions, but I believe that the Apollo moon landings were real and they aren't based on opinions but fact.

You're entitled to look into the hoax as much as you want. Ralph Rene's 'NASA Mooned America' has already been suggested, if you Google 'NASA Mooned America PDF' you will find it on line for free. However, I would hate to see anyone part with their money for Ralph's book knowing that the money will line the pockets of a certain individual. Maybe you want to take a look at his website too and his alternative science theories. It gives you some idea of Ralph's caliber as a scientist. He can't be trusted with simple high school physics, let alone the complexities of space science.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on August 25, 2014, 06:43:21 PM
http://www.clavius.org/Rene-NASA-Mooned-America.pdf , if you must.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Luckmeister on August 25, 2014, 07:27:10 PM
Hi skeptic_UK. I suggest you study overviews of the breadth and complexity of the Apollo program. When you begin to grasp the enormity of data/evidence supporting the program success and realize the thousands of scientists, engineers, technicians and project management worldwide who would have had to be in on the hoax, it will be so apparent that the Moon landings actually happened that you won't have to bother scientifically validating everything they did there, although you might very well enjoy that process. It was a wonderful time of invention, innovation, challenge and, of course, raw courage for those who journeyed from Earth.

I worked on space boosters (Atlas and Titan, pre-Apollo) so I had direct experience with some of the important work preceding the first manned flights. It was a wonderful time.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: sts60 on August 25, 2014, 10:40:57 PM
Hi, skeptic_UK.  Welcome to the forum.

As mentioned, there's not much in the way of actual books debunking Apollo "hoax" claims.  At one point, NASA actually was going to pony up $15k towards a book written by engineer and author James Oberg, but it was ridiculed as a waste of money and scuttled.

If you'd like to learn about Project Apollo in context, and in detail, you could do worse than to peruse the wealth of material to be found at the NASA History Office (http://history.nasa.gov) and at the NASA Technical Reports Server (http://ntrs.nasa.gov).  There is enough material there to keep you occupied until, conservatively speaking, the end of time.  So feel free to ask for guidance on particular topics or themes in which you're interested.

Jay's Clavius site (http://www.clavius.org) and Bob's Rocket and Space Technology (http://http:www.braeunig.us) are two excellent and concise sources discussing Apollo hoax claims.   Other members here have produced other hoax-related materials, although I am rather deficient in remembering who's created what.  But please take a look and ask for help finding what you're interested in.  You may also want to peruse threads here and at this site's immediate precursor, the Proboards site (http://apollohoax.proboards.com), to get an idea of common hoax claims and rebuttals to same.

Personally, I think you'll find this a congenial site if you continue along the open and civil approach with which you began.  The AwE130 thread was a bit of train-wreck as frustration with AwE130's self-important dishonesty boiled over.  Anyway, nice to have you on board and looking forward to a fruitful discussion if you choose to participate.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: LunarOrbit on August 25, 2014, 11:04:14 PM
I'd skip the books about the hoax theory and instead go for the ones that stick to reality. There is drama, adventure, tragedy, comedy, and knowledge in the true story of Apollo. The truth about Apollo is far more interesting than the trashy hoax theory.

The first book I read about Apollo was Andrew Chaikin's "Man on the Moon", which I highly recommend.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: gillianren on August 25, 2014, 11:21:02 PM
Hi skeptic_UK. I suggest you study overviews of the breadth and complexity of the Apollo program. When you begin to grasp the enormity of data/evidence supporting the program success and realize the thousands of scientists, engineers, technicians and project management worldwide who would have had to be in on the hoax, it will be so apparent that the Moon landings actually happened that you won't have to bother scientifically validating everything they did there, although you might very well enjoy that process.

Nitpick--if it were actually a hoax, "enormity" would be the right word, as it indicates a great wrongdoing.  However, the issue with Apollo is its enormousness.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: smartcooky on August 26, 2014, 12:26:15 AM
If you really want to sit down and learn about the truth of the Apollo programme, and would like to be entertained at the same time, try to get a hold of the boxed set of  HBO's 12 part serial "From Earth to the Moon". Co-produced by Ron Howard and Brian Grazer (both Apollo 13), and Michael Bostick, and hosted by Tom Hanks (who played Commander Jim Lovell in Apollo 13).

It tells the story of the Apollo programme in docudrama format. Largely based on the Andrew Chaikin book mentioned by LunarOrbit earlier, this series is known for its accurate telling of the story of Apollo, and its outstanding special effects under visual director Ernest D. Farino.

Still available from Amazon,but shop around as you may be able to get it cheaper

http://www.amazon.com/From-Earth-Moon-Collectors-Edition/dp/0783114222
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: gillianren on August 26, 2014, 01:47:15 AM
My local library has it; you can always check yours.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Allan F on August 26, 2014, 01:52:56 AM
There's an excellent series about the technology on youtube - "Moon machines" - telling about the Spacesuit, the booster, the LM, the LRV, navigational systems and computer and many other things.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: raven on August 26, 2014, 02:17:15 AM
There's an excellent series about the technology on youtube - "Moon machines" - telling about the Spacesuit, the booster, the LM, the LRV, navigational systems and computer and many other things.
Indeed. The narrator is a little dry, but the stories of the people involved are highly engrossing nonetheless.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: onebigmonkey on August 26, 2014, 02:19:08 AM
You could have a good look at this one

http://www.moonhoaxdebunked.com/?m=1
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Luke Pemberton on August 26, 2014, 02:42:48 AM
http://www.clavius.org/Rene-NASA-Mooned-America.pdf , if you must.

Hi again skeptic_uk.   Ditto everything after this - Just don't be conned into buying 'NASA Mooned America' when your can read it for free.

As for Bill Kaysing's 'We Never Went to the Moon', this is what his publisher had to say about his manuscript after paying a small advance in exchange for the manuscript. The editor's comments:

I'm afraid we disavow it. You need to read it objectively and critically and perhaps ORGANIZE IT. As it is it wanders all over the landscape. Several interesting paragraphs but they don't hold together, link together. You've also wandered from third to first person. It needs a lot of work. You don't really have a manuscript here - seemed more like random notes about what you WOULD write about if you got around to it. What I mean, it reads like notes to the AUTHOR.

{Upper case are editor's original emphasis, bold added by me.}
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Bob B. on August 26, 2014, 03:15:34 AM
... even fiction based on the moon hoax conspiracy.

I think it is fair to say that anything purporting a hoax is fiction.  When you really study the facts about Apollo and put that up against the hodgepodge of arguments coming from the hoax theorists, there is really no comparison.  I think just familiarizing yourself with the history of Apollo is a good place to start.  I agree with those that have recommended the book Man on the Moon or the miniseries From the Earth to the Moon.  Both are very entertaining.  I think it is a big mistake to read the hoax literature first because (1) the authors don't know what they're talking about, and (2) they are masters of deceit and manipulation.  Reading their claptrap first may only cause confusion.  After you've familiarized yourself with the historical facts you can then go read the conspiracy theories.  If you're interested in reading more and have an aptitude for technology, studying the science and engineering of Apollo can keep you busy for years.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Zakalwe on August 26, 2014, 03:15:41 AM
I'd love to read more on the subject though bar what websites have to offer.
There's probably very few books from the perspective of a hoaxie because to write such a book would require research, organisation and dedication. Which, IMHO, a typical hoaxie lacks. After all, if they were any good at research then they'd quickly debunk themselves. You only have to look at the last couple of hoaxies that have been on here (AllanCW and Awe130) to get an insight into the mindset of a hoaxie.

If you want to learn about Apollo, then I'd recommend this as a first step:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Apollo-Flew-Springer-Praxis-Books-ebook/dp/B0019JGZ3W/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1409037120&sr=1-2&keywords=how+apollo+flew+to+the+moon


I've always had a passing interest in the moon hoax
I've met a few people with that view. Most of them haven't bothered to do any research either way and recite the usual old guff without any thought. You should realise that there was no hoax.

do believe it was faked myself.
Why?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Bob B. on August 26, 2014, 03:49:15 AM
If you want to read something right now about the history of the program, you can try the following:

http://www.braeunig.us/space/race.htm

This is a presentation that started work on a few years that was intended as a primer for those seeking an introduction to the subject.  Unfortunately I never finished so it abruptly ends part way through.  There's enough material there, however, for quick start.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: nomuse on August 26, 2014, 04:17:38 AM
Interesting question comes to mind, though...

What moon hoax writings are out there that were clearly meant as fiction?

I'm sure there must be a few science fiction yarns that include a hoaxed Apollo as part of the background. Although what comes to mind first are two different movies, each of which assumes the landings took place (just that more happened in addition).
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Bob B. on August 26, 2014, 04:27:34 AM
There was Capricorn One but that was Mars, not the Moon.  I don't know of any fictional story about a fake Moon landing.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: skeptic_UK on August 26, 2014, 04:51:23 AM
Thanks for all the replies. I'll go through them slowly to pick out the links.

I do love Capricorn one. While yes it is technically about Mars. It's clear what real life event ( ;D :P ) it was based on!
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Mag40 on August 26, 2014, 05:03:09 AM
Thanks for all the replies. I'll go through them slowly to pick out the links.

I do love Capricorn one. While yes it is technically about Mars. It's clear what real life event ( ;D :P ) it was based on!

No, it's not based on the Moon landings. Are you going to present any evidence or is this one of those opinion based threads where you don't care about the actual facts?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: smartcooky on August 26, 2014, 05:10:40 AM
Thanks for all the replies. I'll go through them slowly to pick out the links.

I do love Capricorn one. While yes it is technically about Mars. It's clear what real life event ( ;D :P ) it was based on!

Err, it was more likely the other way around; Apollo Hoax nutjobs based their looney ideas on premise of the Peter Hyams' film and novel. Hyams himself admits he got the story idea while working on Apollo broadcasts for CBS.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Kiwi on August 26, 2014, 05:29:49 AM
...Are you going to present any evidence or is this one of those opinion based threads where you don't care about the actual facts?

Skeptic_UK Please allow me to apologise to you for the distasteful and bad-mannered approach of the above poster, who doesn't appear to have read the thread properly, or is perhaps having an utterly miserable day and needs to take it out on someone else.

We don't all behave like that in this forum. In fact, you have had some perfectly civil and informative replies to your enquiry from some of our best-known, best-informed and toughest debunkers, as you will find out if you hang around and study what goes on here.  Many of us are here because of our admiration for what the Mercury-Gemini-Apollo missions accomplished, and it is a wonderful place to learn from experts in many fields. Plus, it is generally a much more civilised site than many on the "interweb".

However, please feel free to tell us what made you believe in the moonlanding "hoax" and do forgive some of the more aggressive or impolite members of ApolloHoax. Some of them have a hard job controlling themselves.

One hint, note that combination: Mercury-Gemini-Apollo. A major failing of many hoax-believers (HBs) is that they're ignorant of the first two, and seem to think that Apollo appeared out of nowhere after Kennedy's two best-known speeches about going to the moon.

Another major failing of some HBs is that they are ignorant.   :)

P.S.: I own two of the better-known hoax books, "NASA MOONED AMERICA!" By [Ralph] René and "DARK MOON -- Apollo and the Whistle-Blowers" by Bennett and Percy. Also, when I first heard of the "hoax" in the 1990s I read my first book on the subject, "Moongate: Suppressed Findings of the U.S. Space Program, The NASA-Military Cover-Up" by William L Brian II. These people seem to like long titles and EXCLAMATION MARKS.

So that's three books, but unfortunately I can't describe any of them as "good." Quite the contrary.

If you like I'll relate the details of some of my experiences with the books. For instance, because I was previously a professional photographer, I saw within minutes of looking at photos in Brian's book, that he knew little or nothing about photography, and figured that if he was equally inexpert about the neutral gravity point between the earth and the moon, his entire book was mostly nonsense.  It took me a few years to learn enough to know that that was indeed the case.

And by the way, I bought Bennett and Percy's book second hand, and René gave me his after I wrote to him about his first article in Nexus magazine. So I didn't feather their nests, which is how I like it.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Mag40 on August 26, 2014, 07:04:28 AM
Another major failing of some HBs is that they are ignorant.   :)

Should I apologise on your behalf for that comment?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Jason Thompson on August 26, 2014, 08:00:09 AM
No need. The statement of HBs being ignorant is factual, and calling someone ignorant is not an insult. Everyone is ignorant about some things. Your response was, however, rather harsh considering it was only the second time that person had posted.

HBs may turn out to be wilfully ignorant, rude, obnoxious, stubborn or whatever, and yes, some of them can be trying (just look at Awe130), but everyone who comes here deserves a fair hearing before being jumped on.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: RAF on August 26, 2014, 09:16:37 AM
The AwE130 thread was a bit of train-wreck as frustration with AwE130's self-important dishonesty boiled over.

I'm actually quite thankful for that thread. For one thing, it got me posting again after leaving CosmoBAUT for (I Hope) is the last time.

...yeah, I know....I've flounced before, but there is something different about this time. Heck, I haven't even logged in there since the 16th of July.

Back on topic...In the shadow of the Moon, and Magnificent Desolation: Walking on the Moon are 2 very fine video productions highlighted by the Apollo astronauts own descriptions of what it was like to actually be there.

I highly recommend both.

 
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Luke Pemberton on August 26, 2014, 09:18:23 AM
I do love Capricorn one. While yes it is technically about Mars. It's clear what real life event ( ;D :P ) it was based on!

That's a refreshing comment as some individuals on both sides of the debate believe Kaysing based his book on Capricorn 1. My understanding is that Kaysing wrote his book in 1974 and Capricorn 1 was 1977, so Kaysing had the original thought.

Regardless of which argument one supports, facts are facts and we must get those from the hoax believers side correct too. I don't know if Capricorn 1 is based on Kaysing's book, but if so then kudos to Kaysing for his role in a brilliant film.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Kiwi on August 26, 2014, 09:24:54 AM
Here's a review of Brian's book at Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/Moongate-Suppressed-Findings-Space-Program/dp/0941292002/ref=sr_1_fkmr1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1409058124&sr=1-1-fkmr1&keywords=Moongate+%22William+L+Brian%22

Moongate: Suppressed Findings of the U.S. Space Program, The NASA-Military Cover-Up by William Brian

Quote
Flawed and Error Filled
By  John R. Keller on February 6, 2006
Format: Paperback
 
On the back of this book, it states that "Although not considered an expert in the space sciences, he [the author William Brian] has the mathematical and conceptual skills to verify the cover-up from a scientific standpoint." While it true that all engineers should be able to solve simple algebraic equations, it is knowing when and how to apply these equations to the appropriate situations that is truly important. Unfortunately, the author fails on the later.

The thesis of this book is that the gravity of the Moon is not 1/6 the Earth's gravity, but that it is approximately two-third (64%) of Earth's gravity, even though numerous experiments and mathematical formulae, some centuries old, have proven otherwise. Of course, by using his "finding" the author goes down the path of farfetched and improbable ideas; such as NASA has anti-gravity drives, the moon has an atmosphere, and the usual hollow moon and UFOs conspiracies.

In light of the centuries of study, one is tempted to ask, "How did the author arrive at his conclusion?" In his book, he writes that NASA has stated the neutral point (the point where the Earth's gravity equals the moon) between the Earth and Moon is different than what has been published for centuries. Specifically, the neutral point is approximately 20,000 miles closer to the Earth, which in turn implies that the Moon's gravity is much greater. It is here that his lack of knowledge regarding space science fails him. In his analysis, he uses a simple one dimensional method to determine the neutral point. In other words, he draws a straight line between the Earth and the Moon and works a simple equation. In real spaceflight, the trip to the moon is much more complex. It requires not only using all three dimensions; it also requires factoring the effects of the movement of the Earth, moon and the spacecraft. In other words, he applied the wrong equation to the situation, so of course he is going to arrive at the wrong answer. Any college level book on orbital mechanics (the mathematics of space flight) shows how this problem is solved, and it is not a simple high-school algebra equation. He also attempts to prove his gravity argument using several other equations, but again he fails, because he does not know how to use them correctly.

When all is said and done, save your money and buy a good technical book on space flight or orbital mechanics and skip this one.

The part I have bolded shows how common it is for ignorance to defeat HBs. There are links to other reviews -- enthusiastic ones -- on the same page, which shows how easily laypeople are fooled. This stuff IS rocket science.

In case non-New Zealanders don't get that, the expression, "C'mon, it's not rocket science" is very common here, and used to point out that the subject being discussed isn't all that difficult, but rocket science is.

Bennett and Percy make the same mistake in their book.

I arrived at my own conclusion regarding Brian's claim by not using maths (my worst subject at school), but by getting a large sheet of paper, finding all sorts of figures about the speed of the moon's motion around the earth, the speed of an Apollo craft heading to the moon, the directions of their motions, and the timing of both, and doing a scale drawing. It was only in 2D and probably wasn't very accurate, but it was enough to convince me Brian was very wrong.

Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: RAF on August 26, 2014, 09:25:12 AM
...calling someone ignorant is not an insult.

"Willful ignorance" is an insult, and when I use that phrase, I mean it to be as insulting as possible.

But no, being ignorant is no crime, but remaining ignorant after being presented the facts, is.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Luke Pemberton on August 26, 2014, 09:50:06 AM
In his analysis, he uses a simple one dimensional method to determine the neutral point. In other words, he draws a straight line between the Earth and the Moon and works a simple equation. In real spaceflight, the trip to the moon is much more complex. It requires not only using all three dimensions; it also requires factoring the effects of the movement of the Earth, moon and the spacecraft.

But solving the problem in 1 dimension is perfectly adequate because one can solve the problem using Renetian Physics. You know, the physics which overturned Newton and Einstein.  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Allan F on August 26, 2014, 10:02:14 AM
"Willful ignorant" is only insulting if it isn't true. Otherwise, it's just descriptive.

Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Kiwi on August 26, 2014, 10:41:25 AM
...Renetian Physics...  ;D ;D ;D

Damnit, you've nearly encouraged me to drag out NASA Mooned America! to check out some of that particular branch of physics. And I say damnit because I really don't want to waste my time, but we do occasionally need something to divert us from life for a while.

And I feel a bit mean sniggering at Rene's writings now he has gone, because he was gracious in sending me his book and was actually polite about, and interested in, what I said regarding his claims in Nexus. I'll have to check, but he might have even conceded a point or two.

However, I must plead guilty to some manipulation, in that I used a particular photo of mine to illustrate a point he missed about lens flare in photography, and that photo is similar to ones that are found on page three of some UK newspapers. But the subject is shown in a tasteful silhouette, and it is, after all, the flare in the background that Rene was supposed to examine most.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on August 26, 2014, 11:12:30 AM
Thanks for all the replies. I'll go through them slowly to pick out the links.

I do love Capricorn one. While yes it is technically about Mars. It's clear what real life event ( ;D :P ) it was based on!

Actually according to its writer and director it was based more on Watergate than on Apollo.  But I supposed that depends on how you want to interpret "based on."  He draws the setting from Apollo, indeed, and extends it to a fictional Mars mission.  But the notion of a massive, high-level coverup he drew from Watergate.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on August 26, 2014, 11:17:40 AM
I arrived at my own conclusion regarding Brian's claim by not using maths (my worst subject at school), but by getting a large sheet of paper, finding all sorts of figures about the speed of the moon's motion around the earth, the speed of an Apollo craft heading to the moon, the directions of their motions, and the timing of both, and doing a scale drawing. It was only in 2D and probably wasn't very accurate, but it was enough to convince me Brian was very wrong.

The name for the math you're alluding to is orbital mechanics.  And Brian was so very, very wrong right out of the gate because he didn't even think to consider it as an orbital mechanics problem.  And every problem regarding motion in space -- especially between and among celestial bodies -- is an orbital mechanics problem.

Brian's approach really is as idiotic as taking your car to the mechanic because it won't start, and watching him rummage around in the trunk.

I'm American, so math is singular and the boot is the trunk.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Kiwi on August 26, 2014, 11:26:42 AM
In the shadow of the Moon, and Magnificent Desolation: Walking on the Moon are 2 very fine video productions highlighted by the Apollo astronauts own descriptions of what it was like to actually be there. I highly recommend both.

I haven't seen the second of those, but can also highly recommend "In the Shadow of the Moon."

The astronauts were all aged between 71 and 78, and I was quite impressed at their comments. I don't believe they could have done such a good job decades ago, because of their jobs and their training. I remember back in July and August 1969 the media commenting so often on how untalkative the Apollo 11 crew were, and my eyebrows shot up often when reporters regularly asked the tedious question, "How did it feel..."

Mike Collins summed up his side of it in his wonderfully humorous way in Carrying the Fire, pages 53-54:

Quote
Test pilots are taught to perceive, to remember, to record every impression in flight — so that later, on the ground, they can report, as fully and as precisely as possible, exactly what happened.  No one disputed this point, so that what happened during a space flight was discussed publicly at the post-flight press conference in as much detail as the press could stomach.  But, of course, that was not sufficient.  What they really wanted to know was: beyond all that technical crap, what did the crew feel?  How did it feel to ride a rocket, what thoughts were racing through your mind as you plummeted toward the sea with the parachutes not yet open?  How scared were you, anyway?  This is what Life paid to find out, and what others pried to find out without paying, and in truth, neither unearthed very much.  Life's little extra certainly wasn't worth the money.  I suppose this was  mainly because, as technical people, as test pilots whose bread and butter was the cold, dispassionate analysis of complicated facts, we were frankly embarrassed by the shifting focus.  It didn't seem right somehow for the press to have this morbid, unhealthy, persistent, prodding, probing pre-occupation with the frills, when the silly bastards didn't even understand how the machines operated or what they had accomplished.  It was like describing what Christian Barnard wore while performing the first heart transplant.  Furthermore, we weren't trained to emote, we were trained to repress emotions, lest they interfere with our very complicated, delicate, and one-chance-only duties.  If they wanted an emotional press conference, for Christ's sake, they should have put together an Apollo crew of a philosopher, a priest, and a poet — not three test pilots.  Of course, they wouldn't get them back to have the press conference, in all likelihood, because this trio would probably emote all the way back into the atmosphere and forget to push in the circuit breaker which enabled the parachutes to open.

Skeptic_UK, there's another excellent book. Not highly technical but very informative and entertaining. If you seek out reviews, you'll probably find claims that it's the best-written book by an Apollo astronaut:--

"Carrying The Fire — An Astronaut's Journeys", Michael Collins, Cooper Square Press, New York, 1974

More gems:
Quote
73   Armalcolite —
   Who would suspect that (FE2+,Mg)Ti2O5 would be discovered at Tranquility Base in 1969 and that this new mineral would be called "armalcolite," a name derived from the initial letters of Armstrong, Aldrin and Collins.

144   Peeing in space —
   Allow me to enter for the record the official, approved Gemini 7 procedure for going potty in space:
Operating Procedure
Chemical Urine Volume Measuring System (CUVMS)
Condom Receiver
1.  Uncoil collection/mixing bag from around selector valve.
2.  Place penis against receiver inlet check valve and roll latex receiver onto penis.
3.  Rotate selector valve knob (clockwise) to the "Urinate" position.
4.  Urinate.
5.  When urination is complete, turn selector valve knob to "Sample."
6.  Roll off latex receiver and remove penis.
7.  Obtain urine sample bag from stowage location.
8.  Mark sample bag tag with required identification.
9.  Place sample bag collar over selector valve sampler flange and turn collar 1/6 turn to stop position.
10.  Knead collection/mixing bag to thoroughly mix urine and tracer chemical.
11.  Rotate sample injector lever 90 degrees so that sample needle pierces sample bag rubber stopper.
12.  Squeeze collection/mixing bag to transfer approximately 75 cc. of tracered urine into the sample bag.
13.  Rotate the sample injector lever 90 degrees so as to retract the sample needle.
14.  Remove filled urine sample bag from selector valve.
15.  Stow filled urine sample bag.
16.  Attach the CUVMS to the spacecraft overboard dump line by means of the quick disconnect.
17.  Rotate selector valve knob to "Blow-Down" position.
18.  Operate spacecraft overboard dump system.
19.  Disconnect CUVMS from spacecraft overboard dump line at the quick disconnect.
20.  Wrap collection/mixing bag around selector valve and stow CUVMS.

214   The Van Allen Belt — Gemini 10 —
   But now we... are beginning a shallow, one-half orbit climb from 180 miles to 475, all because of the energy added to our orbit during that fourteen seconds.  The ground fusses at us for radiation meter readings and can't believe the tiny numbers we read to them.  At eight hours and nine minutes we have accumulated .04 rad; by 8:20 it's .18 rad; finally at 8:37, they accuse us of having the device turned off.  “We're wondering if your dosimeter is still snubbed.”  “No, it's not still snubbed.  It's reading .23 rad.”  “O.K.  It looks like the... rate is less by a factor of about ten, and there is no sweat down here on that.”  Good.  They are happy, we are happy, this unbelievable day is drawing to a close.

304   Parts and defects —
   ...my own feelings were more in keeping with those expressed in a speech by Jerry Lederer, NASA's safety chief, three days before the [Apollo 8] flight.  While the flight posed fewer unknowns than had Columbus's voyage, Jerry said, the mission would "involve risks of great magnitude and probably risks that have not been foreseen.  Apollo 8 has 5,600,000 parts and one and one half million systems, subsystems and assemblies.  Even if all functioned with 99.9 percent reliability, we could expect fifty-six hundred defects…"

310   Apollo 8 Genesis reading —
   The crew also celebrated Christmas by reading the Bible, each of the three taking a turn at the first chapter of Genesis.  It was impressive, I thought, a stroke of genius to relate their primordial setting to the origin of the earth, and to couch it in the beautiful seventeenth-century prose poetry of King James I's scholars.  Borman, Lovell, and Anders deserved to make it home for that reason alone, for having thought to bring the rest of us to their moon in humility and reverence.  It was a graceful touch.

383   Isaac Newton —
   I remember last December, during the flight of Apollo 8, my five-year-old son had one, and only one, specific question:  who was driving?  Was it his friend Mr Borman?  One night when it was quiet in Mission Control I relayed this concern of his to the spacecraft, and Bill Anders promptly replied that no, not Borman, but Isaac Newton was driving.  A truer or more concise description of flying between earth and moon is not possible.  The sun is pulling us, the earth is pulling us,  the moon is pulling us, just as Newton predicted they would.  Our path bends from its initial direction and velocity after TLI in response to these three magnets.

386-7   Gravity and eyes —
   The ground seems to enjoy the TV a lot, judging from the comments coming from Houston, and I guess it must be eerie for the layman to see us floating in all directions past the endless panels of switches.  I finally realize why Neil and Buzz have been looking strange to me.  It's their eyes!  With no gravity pulling down on the loose fatty tissue beneath their eyes, they look squinty and decidedly Oriental.  It makes Buzz look like a swollen-eyed allergic Oriental, and Neil like a wily, sly one.

393   Crater Kamp —
   We need to know as much about the surface as possible, including how far it is below us, and one way of improving this measurement is by pointing the sextant at one piece of real estate and measuring our angle to it as we whiz by.  I have picked a crater in the Foaming Sea (Mare Spumans) and have named it KAMP, in honor of my children and wife (Kate, Ann, Michael, Patricia).   

408   Neil's words — characteristic dignity —
   But one surprise at least is in store, and a very impressive one at that.  Houston comes on the air, not the slightest bit ruffled, and announces that the President of the United States would like to talk to Neil and Buzz.  "That would be an honor," says Neil, with characteristic dignity.  "Go ahead, Mr President.  This is Houston. Out," says Bruce McCandless, the CAPCOM, as if he instructed Presidents every day.

409   Peace and tranquillity —
   My God, I never though of all this bringing peace and tranquillity to anyone.  As far as I am concerned, this voyage is fraught with hazards for the three of us — and especially two of us — and that is about as far as I have gotten in my thinking.  Peace and tranquillity indeed...

410   Lava tubes —
   "How goes it anyway?"  "Roger, Columbia... the crew of Tranquility Base is back inside... everything went beautifully."  "Hallelujah!"  Well, that's a big one behind us:  no more worrying about crashing through into hidden lava tubes, or becoming exhausted, or the front door sticking open, or the little old ladies using weak glue, or any of that!  Whew!

411   850 computer strokes —
   Today is rendezvous day, and that means a multitude of things to keep me busy, with approximately 850 separate computer key strokes to be made, 850 chances for me to screw it up.

413   Apollo 10's "music" -
   There is a strange noise in my headset now, an eerie woo-woo sound.  Had I not been warned about it, it would have scared hell out of me.  Stafford's Apollo 10 crew had first heard it, during their practice rendezvous around the Moon.  Alone on the back side, they were more than a little surprised to hear a noise that John Young in the command module and Stafford in the LM each denied making.  They gingerly mentioned it in their debriefing sessions, but fortunately the radio technicians (rather than the UFO fans) had a ready explanation for it: it was interference between the LM's and command module's VHF radios.  We heard it yesterday when we turned our VHF radios on after separating the two vehicles, and Neil said that it "sounds like wind whipping around the trees."  It stopped as soon as the LM got on the ground, and started up again just a short time ago.  A strange noise in a strange place."

423-4   Phil Shaffer —
   Houston reports the instant at which we leave the lunar sphere of influence.  This means simply that despite the fact we are only thirty-four thousand nautical miles from the moon, and still 174,000 away from the earth, the earth's pull has become dominant, and the mathematical equations now recognize that fact.  "Mark," they say, "you're leaving the lunar sphere of influence, over."  "Roger," I reply.  "Is Phil Shaffer down there?"  He's the one who, on Apollo 8, somehow gave the press the idea that the spacecraft physically jumped at this point, and then had a hell of a time trying to unconvince them.  No, Shaffer's not on duty, but someone else is ("We've got a highly qualified team on in his stead").  "Roger, I wanted to hear him explain it again to the press conference... tell him the spacecraft gave a little jump as it went through..."  "Thanks a lot," says Houston sarcastically.  "Dave Reed is sort of burying his head in his arms right now."
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on August 26, 2014, 11:31:27 AM
The title of Dark Moon refers to its authors' claim that, according to their interpretation of the Apollo 13 timeline, had the ship continued uninjured it would have arrived at the Moon too soon, and that its landing site would have been in darkness.  This, they say, proves that Apollo 13 was planned from the start to be a staged failure.  What they don't realize is that upon arrival at the Moon, the Apollo spaceship nominally goes into a ten-revolution calibration orbit, at two hours per rev.  That's to allow ground controllers to observe the orbit and finely measure it, so that the descent maneuver can be planned.

That's only one of perhaps a hundred important elements of space science and engineering the books authors are completely ignorant about.  Neither one of them is a space scientist or engineer, and there is practically no end to the stuff they get wrong.

One of its authors, David Percy, is a photographer and purports to have proven by photographic analysis that the photographs can't have been taken on the Moon.  Unfortunately he has no skill or talent at photo analysis, and this should have been made apparent to him by the responses he got when he first published his claims in the Fortean Times.  Instead of reconsidering his approach, he seems to have been encouraged, and so wrote one of the longest, most meandering books on any fringe subject I've ever seen.  Plus he went on to make a four-hour video, excerpts from which can still be found on YouTube.  (He's the bearded, congenial English fellow).

I'm not speaking acerbically when I opine that the vast length of his material is meant to lull the reader and viewer into a stupor from which he finds it difficult to think critically.

Percy attempted to defend his photo analysis, but broke off sharply when an astute reader pointed out that his own photographs failed the "tests" Percy proposed had to apply to real photographs.  In other words, Percy simply makes up what he thinks is the science of photo analysis and interpretation, doesn't test his methods, and then runs away when reality intrudes.  In the meantime all the rest of his claims have been fact-checked and found to be sadly wanting.  Good luck getting Percy to discuss his work in public anymore.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: gillianren on August 26, 2014, 12:05:18 PM
Thanks for all the replies. I'll go through them slowly to pick out the links.

I do love Capricorn one. While yes it is technically about Mars. It's clear what real life event ( ;D :P ) it was based on!

Actually according to its writer and director it was based more on Watergate than on Apollo.  But I supposed that depends on how you want to interpret "based on."  He draws the setting from Apollo, indeed, and extends it to a fictional Mars mission.  But the notion of a massive, high-level coverup he drew from Watergate.

And it's worth noting that Watergate is part of why I found Capricorn One to be such an exceedingly silly movie.  (Among other things.)  One of the things Watergate proved is that a coverup of that scale couldn't work, because it would always get revealed.  Especially now that we know who Deep Throat was and why; he revealed what he did in part out of internal rivalry.  Petty jealousy can bring down a conspiracy a lot faster than investigative journalism.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on August 26, 2014, 12:19:15 PM
Petty jealousy can bring down a conspiracy a lot faster than investigative journalism.

I think that's why the Framers of the U.S. Constitution set up the checks and balances as they did.  They realized petty squabbles would act in mutual opposition to maintain an even keel, hence empowered the holders of office to act upon those natural human tendencies.  It's a comical image, but imagine people fighting over the steering wheel -- if they're all equally strong, the wheel doesn't turn.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Noldi400 on August 26, 2014, 12:35:22 PM
Oh, and skeptic_UK?  If you stumble across a film titled Dark Side Of The Moon, please understand that it is a "mocumentary" - an intentional satire of the moon hoax conspiracy.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on August 26, 2014, 12:45:39 PM
I think it is a big mistake to read the hoax literature first because (1) the authors don't know what they're talking about, and (2) they are masters of deceit and manipulation.

I really can't underscore this enough.

The only legitimate reason, in my opinion, to read the hoax books is so that you know what their claims actually are.  I'm happy to summarize them, of course, and my web site reproduces their claims in a pseudo-dialectic form.  But even the most hardened skeptic has to admit that hearing hoax claims via me would be second-hand sourcing.  Hence if you really want to wade into that cesspool of illogic and misinformation, there's at least one scholarly reason to do so.

But I have learned through a decade and a half's experience that Bob's brief summary is entirely correct.  Bob lists it second, but I promote it to first and foremost:  these authors are intentionally trying to deceive you.  You may ask how I know that.  A large fraction of that basis is an inference I strongly promote, and that is the number of times and ways in which I've caught them blatantly and unapologetically lying defies the explanation that they are simply misguided souls or simply have a different view.  A smaller, but considerably firmer fraction is that having risen to a position of note among the media, I have occasion to hear the inside machinations among them.  They do not believe their own hype.  To them this is a business of bilking the gullible.  Kaysing even admitted this on camera, a fact his followers seem singularly unaware of.

Now arguing motives is generally not the skeptic's chosen method.  We have to note the method here, because the question "Should I read this book?" has to be answered partly by understanding the reason why it exists.  Here we find the reasons claimed by their authors are not the reasons they believe among themselves.  Hence a motive to deceive bears on whether one should allow their words inside their heads.

So we do have to consider a more objective basis on which to judge the value of their work.  And that's stated most concisely as the abject ignorance among their authors of how space really works.  Among them, only Bill Kaysing ever had any involvement with engineering or science -- and that only as a librarian.  Percy has no training in photographic interpretation.  Rene called himself a self-trained physicist, but could demonstrate no skill at it.  Bart Sibrel is simply a disgruntled cameraman who has since gone on to other things.  None of these people can or could elaborate even the slightest correct fact of space engineering or space science, and it is upon their misconceptions that a case is laid out for unsuspecting lay readers and viewers.

Ultimately it can be said that they consider Apollo fake because they themselves can't figure out how it was done.  But their sin lies in hiding their ignorance, professing expertise to an audience ripe for hearing such controversial claims, and avoiding any meaningful test.  You will not learn anything about space by reading their books.  In fact, anything you take away from them is likely to be flat-out wrong.  You'd probably end up worse off trying to learn space science and history from those books.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: nomuse on August 26, 2014, 01:11:33 PM
In case non-New Zealanders don't get that, the expression, "C'mon, it's not rocket science" is very common here, and used to point out that the subject being discussed isn't all that difficult, but rocket science is.


That's my feeling about the hoax. It isn't rocket science. The real landings were, and understanding them properly is, but 98% of the hoax believer claims revolve around thinking shadows in a photograph should always run parallel in the plane of the picture.

And when you've gone through 98 ludicrous mistakes that can be demonstrated with kitchen table science, it doesn't seem necessary to properly solve the more technical claims in order to realize the hoaxies are full of hot air.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Andromeda on August 26, 2014, 01:13:42 PM
I recommend the Mythbusters episode on the hoax claims, it was excellent.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: nomuse on August 26, 2014, 01:19:10 PM
And Capricorn 1 is where Peter Hyams got his start. So does that mean we can blame Kaysing for Outland?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Noldi400 on August 26, 2014, 01:46:04 PM
The thing that struck me about Capricorn One - even as a layman space travel buff who, at the time, had barely even heard about moon hoax believers - was that it was just so damn stupid.  Going to Mars in what appeared to be an unmodified Apollo stack?  Landing on Mars - right through the atmosphere - in a Lunar Module? No radio chatter about news and sports scores (impossible to tape in advance), even while they were in reasonable radio range? No panoramas of the Mars landscape - just a single static shot of the LM? And on and on, ad nauseum.

I understand that the movie maker was focused on the conspiracy aspect, and that enjoying science fiction usually requires a certain suspension of disbelief, but the tonnage of disbelief was just too much for me to get off the ground. It was as if they thought that going to Mars was the same as going to the moon, just a little further away.  And Peter Hyams really had no excuse for not knowing better, or for thinking that his audience - a generation that had grown up with Mercury-Gemini-Apollo - wouldn't know better.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Luke Pemberton on August 26, 2014, 02:05:11 PM
In case non-New Zealanders don't get that, the expression, "C'mon, it's not rocket science" is very common here...

My sister when bemused during my incessant physics and chemistry discussions still makes me laugh with her perennial question, 'what do rocket scientists say then, because they can't say it's not rocket science?'

My reply, 'it's not brain surgery I suppose. I don't know, anyway... where was I?'  :P

That's my feeling about the hoax. It isn't rocket science. The real landings were, and understanding them properly is, but 98% of the hoax believer claims revolve around thinking shadows in a photograph should always run parallel in the plane of the picture.

The obfuscation they produce with their photographic 'evidence' only for their house of cards to fall apart with such a ridiculous claim bewilders me. They talk techno-babble about the use of reflectors to fill in non-illuminated surfaces and studio spotlighting producing the fall-off in the famous Aldrin photograph, and then they invoke non-parallel shadows.  ???

I've always thought 'you've gone this far to draw people in, aren't you taking it a little bit to far with the non-parallel shadows, that's just so obviously debunked?'

The layers of complexity built into the different strands of the theory are incredulous, and each strand falls apart with the slightest of examinations. It's like the three little pigs, there's a house made of straw. Once that one is blown down they congregate in the one they think is made of brick.

This invokes the question about the flimsy nature of the theory - how is it possible that other aspects of the theory which pertain to deeper knowledge hold up if the basics can be taken apart so easily?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Andromeda on August 26, 2014, 02:12:17 PM
I never understood the "non-parallel shadows mean multiple light sources!!!1!!11!" argument.  How do the HBs reconcile their believe in multiple light sources when each object has only a single shadow? I'm not being sarcastic, I genuinely don't get it.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Luke Pemberton on August 26, 2014, 02:16:13 PM
I never understood the "non-parallel shadows mean multiple light sources!!!1!!11!" argument.  How do the HBs reconcile their believe in multiple light sources when each object has only a single shadow? I'm not being sarcastic, I genuinely don't get it.

Despite all the evidence they are shown of floodlit stadia and shadows that are not parallel. No I don't get it either. You just want to scream 'Look, look at these pictures.'

It's the Underpants Gnomes again:

1.  Parallel shadows.
2.  ?
3.  It was hoaxed.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Andromeda on August 26, 2014, 02:17:17 PM
*belief

D'oh!
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: nomuse on August 26, 2014, 02:25:22 PM

The obfuscation they produce with their photographic 'evidence' only for their house of cards to fall apart with such a ridiculous claim bewilders me. They talk techno-babble about the use of reflectors to fill in non-illuminated surfaces and studio spotlighting producing the fall-off in the famous Aldrin photograph, and then they invoke non-parallel shadows.  ???

I've always thought 'you've gone this far to draw people in, aren't you taking it a little bit to far with the non-parallel shadows, that's just so obviously debunked?'


"Techno-babble" is an accurate description. Rocket scientists aren't the only people with specialized methods, tools, and terminology.

I love it just as much when the hoaxies go blithely along about marking set pieces on the painted surfaces, sticking stand lights around at random, and otherwise getting wrong pretty much everything about how films are actually made.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: raven on August 26, 2014, 02:35:29 PM
Maybe NASA didn't get Stanley Kubrick but Ed Wood. ;D
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Luke Pemberton on August 26, 2014, 02:36:38 PM
I love it just as much when the hoaxies go blithely along about marking set pieces on the painted surfaces, sticking stand lights around at random, and otherwise getting wrong pretty much everything about how films are actually made.

The Aldrin down the LM ladder and Aldrin in the crater photographs make me chuckle, as they go to great lengths to talk about reflectors to illuminate regions in shadow.

'Hang on, you do realise that Aldrin was climbing down a big shiny thing and was stood next to Armstrong who was dressed head to toe in what appears to be white?'
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on August 26, 2014, 02:42:22 PM
Maybe NASA didn't get Stanley Kubrick but Ed Wood. ;D

I so want to make a joke about angora space suits, but I fear offending someone.

John Glenn or Joanna Glenda?  Oh, man, this stuff just writes itself.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on August 26, 2014, 02:47:11 PM
'Hang on, you do realise that Aldrin was climbing down a big shiny thing and was stood next to Armstrong who was dressed head to toe in what appears to be white?'

The Beta cloth of the 1960s is about 80% reflective in the visible spectrum.  (In the 1980s they changed the way Beta cloth was made; it's a tad less reflective nowadays.)  The maximum surface area of an astronaut presented in any aspect is just under 2 square meters, or about the surface area of an off-the-shelf handheld photography reflector.  There really is no question what caused the fill light.  And all those brilliant hoax-claimant "photographers" can't figure it out.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: raven on August 26, 2014, 02:47:27 PM
I love it just as much when the hoaxies go blithely along about marking set pieces on the painted surfaces, sticking stand lights around at random, and otherwise getting wrong pretty much everything about how films are actually made.

The Aldrin down the LM ladder and Aldrin in the crater photographs make me chuckle, as they go to great lengths to talk about reflectors to illuminate regions in shadow.

'Hang on, you do realise that Aldrin was climbing down a big shiny thing and was stood next to Armstrong who was dressed head to tow in what appears to be white?'
That's part of why I think the Mythbuster's photo was significantly less lit than Apollo's, they didn't have a giant white and gold reflector standing literally behind the camera. It still busts the myth, as Percy claims it should be  "a silhouette" in a direct quote from 'Dark Moon', but their model astronaut is darker.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: darren r on August 26, 2014, 02:47:51 PM


I love it just as much when the hoaxies go blithely along about marking set pieces on the painted surfaces, sticking stand lights around at random, and otherwise getting wrong pretty much everything about how films are actually made.


The 'C' rock always makes me laugh. If NASA put letters on their set dressing rocks, does that mean they only had 26 of them? With the billions they were spending on the hoax, couldn't they afford a few more?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Luke Pemberton on August 26, 2014, 02:48:10 PM
There's a good article on Clavius that explores claims about the iconic Aldrin photo.

http://www.clavius.org/manmoon.html
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on August 26, 2014, 02:53:03 PM
I love it just as much when the hoaxies go blithely along about marking set pieces on the painted surfaces, sticking stand lights around at random, and otherwise getting wrong pretty much everything about how films are actually made.

Yes, I've often commented that these authors know as little about filmmaking as they do about space engineering.  "C is commonly used in Hollywood to mark the center of a set," was one claim from David Percy, who frankly should know better.  (He never did work in Hollywood, but he has been a video cameraman.)

A film set has no nominal center.  Film sets are meant to be lit and photographed in several different directions, depending on the story needs.  Stage sets, especially on proscenium stages, often refer to the stage centerline as a location reference, but you don't often need to "spike" (i.e., mark) its location, and there is no letter or other kind of annotation.  On drawings of sets there is a special symbol to identify the centerline -- an elided C and L.

I have to believe these people know they don't really know what they're talking about.  If you make stuff up, you have to know you're doing it.  That speaks volumes for the apparent dishonesty.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Luke Pemberton on August 26, 2014, 03:05:54 PM
The 'C' rock always makes me laugh. If NASA put letters on their set dressing rocks, does that mean they only had 26 of them? With the billions they were spending on the hoax, couldn't they afford a few more?

I can't find the post, but HeadLikeARock and Glom pushed it hard with HBs that the photo taken directly before the C-rock photo has no C on the rock.

Again, I cannot find the post, but the C rock photo also appeared on the front of a magazine within weeks of the Apollo 16 landings. Again, no C was visible on the rock. I'm sure the magazine cover was posted when on the proboards.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: nomuse on August 26, 2014, 03:13:46 PM


I love it just as much when the hoaxies go blithely along about marking set pieces on the painted surfaces, sticking stand lights around at random, and otherwise getting wrong pretty much everything about how films are actually made.


The 'C' rock always makes me laugh. If NASA put letters on their set dressing rocks, does that mean they only had 26 of them? With the billions they were spending on the hoax, couldn't they afford a few more?

It also fails the consistency test.

The same people who point at the "C" rock also claim that things got moved randomly around from shot to shot (White and his inability to think in three dimensions is the star of this one). So if each set-up is random, why would you need to mark the props at all?

Wikipedia calls this "Kettle Logic."

Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Glom on August 26, 2014, 03:18:41 PM
You all have it wrong. The crosshairs argument is way sillier than the shadows.

I mean why would anyone trying to produce a convincing scene mock up a photo in the way conspiracists posit? Didn't David Percy actually say it was the work of whistleblowers? That's how incoherent the argument is. Conspiracists are themselves having to pile on the ridiculousness to rationalise their own ridiculousness.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: nomuse on August 26, 2014, 03:23:28 PM
True enough. I fall back on the shadows, or the no-stars, because they are the simplest errors to describe.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: raven on August 26, 2014, 03:53:21 PM
You all have it wrong. The crosshairs argument is way sillier than the shadows.

I mean why would anyone trying to produce a convincing scene mock up a photo in the way conspiracists posit? Didn't David Percy actually say it was the work of whistleblowers? That's how incoherent the argument is. Conspiracists are themselves having to pile on the ridiculousness to rationalise their own ridiculousness.
On a similar note, the 'lack' of crater. Surely they could have added one before putting the LM in place if one should be there.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on August 26, 2014, 03:54:20 PM
Wikipedia calls this "Kettle Logic."

This is often legitimately confusing because it's not always a fallacy.

Notably in legal arguments, one may advance several legal theories, some of which may be incompatible if taken conjuctively.  However, depending upon how the facts bear out at trial and how the judge wants to shape precedent, one may be selected for ruling and the others rendered moot.  Judges can only rule on theories presented to them, so this creates an artificial motive for lawyers to cover all the bases and present several theories.

In general argumentation, if the alternatives are presented as a disjunction there is no fallacy.  David Percy provided a good example.  He claimed in one case that artificial lighting had to have been used on some particular photograph because no other explanation sufficed.  A deluge of alternatives issued from his critics, none of which he had apparently considered.  Percy noted that some were incompatible and evaded an answer by noting that his critics "couldn't make up their minds."  But in fact the set of unconsidered alternatives was not presented as a conjunction of hypotheses all of which had to be true.  Percy's claim fails if even one of the alternatives is true.

Reasoning with scant data often requires us to set up multiple hypotheses that delineate how to reason one way or another depending on outcomes or uncertainties.  These help us plan investigations and also set up a framework for statistical reasoning.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Allan F on August 26, 2014, 04:15:49 PM
The 'C' rock always makes me laugh. If NASA put letters on their set dressing rocks, does that mean they only had 26 of them? With the billions they were spending on the hoax, couldn't they afford a few more?

I can't find the post, but HeadLikeARock and Glom pushed it hard with HBs that the photo taken directly before the C-rock photo has no C on the rock.

Again, I cannot find the post, but the C rock photo also appeared on the front of a magazine within weeks of the Apollo 16 landings. Again, no C was visible on the rock. I'm sure the magazine cover was posted when on the proboards.

This one? https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/13325730833/
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Luke Pemberton on August 26, 2014, 04:24:08 PM
This one? https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/13325730833/

Thanks, just found the link from a YouTube video. That's four times this week I've been beaten to the punch.





ETA: I've now posted 333 times. For those that know their cricket, I've levelled with Goochy on triple Nelson. OK, no one cares...
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: nomuse on August 26, 2014, 04:32:28 PM
Hrm.

I know a lot of hoax believers present in terms of "investigation" or "exploration." So you could excuse the multiple inconsistent ideas as being exploratory in nature.

The problem I have is when they are sorting out specific observations in support of a single thesis. The moment they move from "this shadow is inconsistent" to "this shadow also points towards stage lighting" (their word), they are implicitly constructing the much smaller set of single coherent patterns that include only those observations that match them.

Plus, they more often present in terms of a well-supported conclusion. Instead of saying "explore with me" they say "follow my impeccable chain of logic."



Heh. Thinking about process again. I've had plenty of times the problem you hint at; constructing a hypothesis too early. I come up with an explanation that fits three observations more-or-less, and proceed to tear down a piece of gear. And after working away with the circuit testers and so forth for a few hours, I finally realize there was a better explanation -- one that includes several observations I'd decided weren't important.

Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Mag40 on August 26, 2014, 04:42:54 PM
ETA: I've now posted 333 times. For those that know their cricket, I've levelled with Goochy on triple Nelson. OK, no one cares...

Just for you a triple nelson:

[ Invalid YouTube link ]t=91
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Luke Pemberton on August 26, 2014, 04:49:31 PM
[ Invalid YouTube link ]t=91

David Shepherd, sadly no longer with us.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Bob B. on August 26, 2014, 05:43:51 PM
For sheer sillyness, the lack of rover tracks is another good one.  So let's get this right, we have a wheeled vehicle capable of being driven into a position that is was supposed to be driven into.   But instead of driving it in into that position, we decide to hoist it into place with a crane.  Meanwhile it never occurs to anyone that by hoisting it we never produce the tire tracks that should have been there had we driven it.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Andromeda on August 26, 2014, 05:50:38 PM
Similarly with the so-called 'waving flag', Bob.

Imagine it - a very secret, large and expensive set (put together by experienced professional technicians with the money of the US Govt behind them) has a strong wind blowing across it and no-one at any point during the 'filming' ever says "uhhhhhh... someone is gonna notice that...".

It's ludicrous.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Zakalwe on August 26, 2014, 05:59:05 PM
For sheer sillyness, the lack of rover tracks is another good one.  So let's get this right, we have a wheeled vehicle capable of being driven into a position that is was supposed to be driven into.   But instead of driving it in into that position, we decide to hoist it into place with a crane.  Meanwhile it never occurs to anyone that by hoisting it we never produce the tire tracks that should have been there had we driven it.

Ralph Rene on the rover:
"Notice also that the Rover has left tracks that show an abrupt right angle turn. Have you ever seen any vehicle that could do that? It looks like stage hands lifted up the front and dragged the Rover around to the left just before this picture was taken. Only a two wheeled hand truck can leave such a track."
No Ralph----a vehicle that has rear-wheel or 4-wheel steering (such as the rover) can also leave a track like that.

It's the sheer lack of even the most basic of research that does it for me. OK, there might be a tiny, tiny argument that people like Rene didn't have access to the wealth of knowledge that we in out Internet-enabled modernity have. But that argument cannot hold water for anyone that blindly parrots that old claptrap today. I mean, why wouldn't you spend an afternoon on Wikipedia and just check this stuff out???
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Bob B. on August 26, 2014, 06:12:27 PM
It's the sheer lack of even the most basic of research that does it for me.

One word ... NASASCAM.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Jason Thompson on August 26, 2014, 06:15:27 PM
One word ... NASASCAM.

In a twisted way i loved that site, if only for the immortal line:

"FACT: Rumour has it..."
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: RAF on August 26, 2014, 06:18:20 PM
On a similar note, the 'lack' of crater. Surely they could have added one before putting the LM in place if one should be there.

Oh, it's much worse than that. One of the very first things Armstrong said as he stepped onto the surface was about (paraphrasing) the "surprising lack of a crater under the descent engine".

If the lack of a crater was such a big deal, wouldn't someone inform Neil not to mention this?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Zakalwe on August 26, 2014, 06:21:46 PM
One word ... NASASCAM.

In a twisted way i loved that site, if only for the immortal line:

"FACT: Rumour has it..."


FACT: The current Airfix plastic kit model of the Saturn V rocket, has no mention whatsoever on the box that Apollo went to the Moon, in fact the word "Moon" does not appear anywhere on the box. It merely states that the Saturn V launched the Apollo capsule into space, (low earth orbit, which is correct). Evidently Airfix realize that Apollo did not go to the Moon, otherwise there would be a reference to it somewhere on the box containing the model. As many would say "The truth is as plastic as the model".

Is it a wind-up site??? Surely, no-one can be that stupid????

(http://www.plognark.com/Art/Sketches/Blogsketches/2008/thestupiditburnsblack.jpg)
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: RAF on August 26, 2014, 06:23:18 PM
It's the sheer lack of even the most basic of research that does it for me.

..or the constant repeating of throughly debunked ideas....in particular, I'm thinking of the "no stars" argument.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Luke Pemberton on August 26, 2014, 06:24:40 PM
"FACT: Rumour has it..."

That has tickled me, if you could only see how much.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Luke Pemberton on August 26, 2014, 06:34:11 PM
For sheer sillyness, the lack of rover tracks is another good one.  So let's get this right, we have a wheeled vehicle capable of being driven into a position that is was supposed to be driven into.   But instead of driving it in into that position, we decide to hoist it into place with a crane.  Meanwhile it never occurs to anyone that by hoisting it we never produce the tire tracks that should have been there had we driven it.

And round and round it goes...




But that doesn't sound as good as the rover was hoisted there by a crane, which would have involved more people from an external crane company, and they would have been in on the conspiracy too, but that's not a problem as the project was well compartmentalised and there isn't a chance the crane company would have blown the whistle as they were paid by NASA using the NASA shill budget.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Sus_pilot on August 26, 2014, 06:37:00 PM
ETA: I've now posted 333 times. For those that know their cricket, I've levelled with Goochy on triple Nelson. OK, no one cares...

I gotta tell you, as a USAian, I find hoax theories more comprehensible than cricket rules...

ETA:  Luke, Tapatalk is truncating the right margin, so I can't seem to get the quote formatted corretcly.

Or edit "correctly". 
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Luke Pemberton on August 26, 2014, 06:39:04 PM
I gotta tell you, as a USAian, I find hoax theories more comprehensible than cricket rules laws...

Fixed that for you...  :P

It's straighforwards really, here's an explanation of Cricket:

You have two sides, one out in the field and one in. Each man that's in the side that's in goes out, and when he's out he comes in and the next man goes in until he's out. When they are all out, the side that's out comes in and the side that's been in goes out and tries to get those coming in, out.

Sometimes you get men still in and not out. When a man goes out to go in, the men who are out try to get him out, and when he is out he goes in and the next man in goes out and goes in.

There are two men called umpires who stay all out all the time and they decide when the men who are in are out. When both sides have been in and all the men have been out, and both sides have been out twice after all the men have been in, including those who are not out, that is the end of the game.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Zakalwe on August 26, 2014, 06:45:29 PM
It's straighforwards really, here's an explanation of Cricket:

You have two sides, one out in the field and one in. Each man that's in the side that's in goes out, and when he's out he comes in and the next man goes in until he's out. When they are all out, the side that's out comes in and the side that's been in goes out and tries to get those coming in, out.

Sometimes you get men still in and not out. When a man goes out to go in, the men who are out try to get him out, and when he is out he goes in and the next man in goes out and goes in.

There are two men called umpires who stay all out all the time and they decide when the men who are in are out. When both sides have been in and all the men have been out, and both sides have been out twice after all the men have been in, including those who are not out, that is the end of the game.


You sure that's not a MP sketch???
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Sus_pilot on August 26, 2014, 06:46:39 PM

I gotta tell you, as a USAian, I find hoax theories more comprehensible than cricket rules laws...

Fixed that for you...  :P

It's straighforwards really, here's an explanation of Cricket:

You have two sides, one out in the field and one in. Each man that's in the side that's in goes out, and when he's out he comes in and the next man goes in until he's out. When they are all out, the side that's out comes in and the side that's been in goes out and tries to get those coming in, out.

Sometimes you get men still in and not out. When a man goes out to go in, the men who are out try to get him out, and when he is out he goes in and the next man in goes out and goes in.

There are two men called umpires who stay all out all the time and they decide when the men who are in are out. When both sides have been in and all the men have been out, and both sides have been out twice after all the men have been in, including those who are not out, that is the end of the game.

The last time someone tried to explain it to me was while we were on vacation in the Caymans.  I immediately felt the need for a strong rum drink.  Sadly, I do now, but I have a flight student in 10 minutes, and the FAA frowns on that sort of thing.

Sigh... :)
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on August 26, 2014, 07:05:03 PM
Is it a wind-up site??? Surely, no-one can be that stupid????

Sam Colby can certainly act that stupid, but the jury has been out for some 15 years whether he really is that stupid.  He does a slightly better job of protecting his anonymity than AwE130, so it's hard to really track him across the web.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Chew on August 26, 2014, 09:58:36 PM
The one I can't forget no matter how hard I try is the 'hospital porter for truth' who said the footage of a LM rendezvousing with the CSM was obviously fake because the LM was moving to its right but it was "banked" to the left.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: frenat on August 26, 2014, 10:01:04 PM
I still like Jarrah's description of a polar orbit.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: nomuse on August 26, 2014, 10:02:06 PM
Or the alleged vacuum.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: gillianren on August 26, 2014, 10:40:27 PM
When my friends are discussing stupidity, "alleged vacuum" comes up a lot.  They like watching me splutter incoherently, it seems.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Luke Pemberton on August 27, 2014, 02:01:19 AM
I still like Jarrah's description of a polar orbit.

Oh, you've gone and done it now, and I was trying so hard not to go over old ground. The infamous '1.5 x 0.5 = 1.0 wiggle myself off the hook with circular logic get-out' is still my favourite.

'If I take the Apollo footage (Young's jump salute) and increase its speed to 150% (3/2 times) it looks like a man moving in Earth's gravity. I shall now render the sped up video. I now take my rendered video at 150% (3/2 times) and reduce it's playback speed to 67% (2/3 times speed) and it looks like the Apollo footage.' He plays slowed down rendered video next to original unaltered video.

So you've just shown that 3/2 x 2/3 = 1? Way to go  :o
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: nomuse on August 27, 2014, 02:23:43 AM
Sounds on a par with IDW's "10^5 = 1,000,000"
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: smartcooky on August 27, 2014, 04:01:47 AM
I still like Jarrah's description of a polar orbit.

Oh, you've gone and done it now, and I was trying so hard not to go over old ground. The infamous '1.5 x 0.5 = 1.0 wiggle myself of the hook with circular logic get-out' is still my favourite.

'If I take the Apollo footage (Young's jump salute) and increase it speed to 150% (3/2 times) it looks like a man moving in Earth's gravity. I shall now render the sped up video. I now take my rendered video at 150% (3/2 times) and reduce it's playback speed to 67% (2/3 times speed) and it looks like the Apollo footage.' He plays slowed down rendered video next to unaltered video.

So you've just shown that 3/2 x 2/3 = 1? Way to go  :o


Hang on; you mean he sped up the footage of a piece of lunar gravity video and claimed that it looked like Earth gravity video, then slowed down the SAME FOOTAGE and claimed that because it then looked like the original lunar gravity video, that this proved the lunar gravity video was Earth gravity video slowed down?

Oh boy, there is stupid, and there is stupid, but that takes stupid to a whole new level.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: nomuse on August 27, 2014, 04:32:07 AM
In my ranking of Wrong, somewhere past Fractally Wrong and even Not Even Wrong, and far beyond Trivially Wrong, is So Wrong it Became Right -- in some Looking-Glass, Bizarro world where the wrong thing is so wrong it starts to make some sort of twisted sense.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Luke Pemberton on August 27, 2014, 05:03:51 AM
Hang on; you mean he sped up the footage of a piece of lunar gravity video and claimed that it looked like Earth gravity video, then slowed down the SAME FOOTAGE and claimed that because it then looked like the original lunar gravity video, that this proved the lunar gravity video was Earth gravity video slowed down?

Yup. Then there's the infamous scattered rocks claim which implies that Earth's gravity is 216 times greater than the Moon's gravity (once your dissect the physics). That's a little more labourius to explain, but he worked out the size of rocks that are held up on the Moon and Earth by rocket exhaust gases. He then equated the weight of rocks to the upward fluid force, a problem that used the principles of Newton's 1st law. He then showed that the same gas pressure would support larger rocks on the Moon.

He then used this result and invoked Newtons 2nd law with no math, boldly making the claim that this meant bigger rocks with larger surface areas could be scattered further on the Moon for the same exhaust pressure, ergo there should of been a blast crater under the LM.

Assuming his model is correct, which it is not, he did not compare the same sized rocks in his second step. He jumped to a different part of physics without understanding the principles and context of his first set of calculations and fluffed it. It was also pointed out that if he wanted to use his model consistently he would have to use a higher gas pressure for an hypothetical Earth module, and this would yield a different result if he compared apples with apples and applied the correct physics to his model.

Then there was his failure to understand Galileo's experiment, you know, the one where two objects dropped from the same height in the absence of air resistance both hit the ground simultaneously. Except that he declared that this was not always the case. He went on to compare two objects hitting the ground from the same height. Except one had already been falling before the the second one was dropped. Let's go through that one with s = ut + 1/2 at2 shall we? Not much chance there.

The boot in the regolith simulant, the LEGO LM in a box, jumping around next to a flag, kicking dry and wet sand on a beach, the radiation calculations, the shrinking of Aldrin's boot print photo and superimposing it on the LRO images, his claims regarding the LLRs, the milk in the super market trolley. It's a collection of pseudo-bunk of burning stupid, all packaged up in whizzy graphics and skits which impress the gullible, it really is.

As I said on the AWE thread, I have the knowledge to debunk radiation, rocks, the LLR claims, some of the photographic evidence and the usual fodder offered up by the hoax crowd. It doesn't take a rocket scientist, most of the claims are debunked with a bit of high school science and some research. There are some aspects of hoax claims that require deep specialist knowledge, but most can be dealt with if you're willing to put in the leg work.

There are parts where I simply do not have the knowledge, but I will quite happily say I'm ignorant, but I won't replace ignorance with arrogance. Fattydash's claim of the Eagle lost on the surface, that took the likes of Jay, sts60, ka9q, Bob etc, I simply did not know where to start debunking that claim. However, once I read the rebuttal, the rendezvous of the CM and LM made perfect sense.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Luke Pemberton on August 27, 2014, 05:36:27 AM
I still like Jarrah's description of a polar orbit.

Didn't he wiggle away from that one too with some absurd claim that...

(http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100309031800/darkheresy/images/0/0c/Its_a_trap.jpg)
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Zakalwe on August 27, 2014, 05:39:53 AM
There are parts where I simply do not have the knowledge, but I will quite happily say I'm ignorant, but I won't replace ignorance with arrogance. Fattydash's claim of the Eagle lost on the surface, that took the likes of Jay, sts60, ka9q, Bob etc, I simply did not know where to start debunking that claim. However, once I read the rebuttal, the rendezvous of the CM and LM made perfect sense.

There is a tremendous arrogance in hoax believers of this type. It's an arrogance borne out of a lack of education, understanding and wonder. Its an arrogance borne out of the effects of the Dunning-Kruger effect- the illusion of superiority. As David Dunning said "If you’re incompetent, you can’t know you’re incompetent. .....the skills you need to produce a right answer are exactly the skills you need to recognize what a right answer is"

I think (and it's only my opinion) that most HBs differ slightly from this as they do know that their knowledge is limited. They know that others have done more, are smarter, have applied themselves harder, and because of this have grasped the hoax belief as a way of convincing themselves that they are, in some way, better. They display lots of the signs of having a superiority complex (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superiority_complex). That is why people like Awe130 and The Blunder from Down Under will never be convinced otherwise, no matter how many times they are shown to be talking bollocks. To admit so would be to face their own insecurity and lack of knowledge. Remember DakDak? He was a dumb as rocks and had a pride in failing at all levels of education. He nearly imploded when it was shown just how limited his understanding of the world was. But rather than face up to that and try and learn something he collapsed completely and buried his head in the sand.

IMHO, people that truly know stuff tend to be a lot more humble in their estimations of their abilities and our reservoir of knowledge. Because they know stuff they also know just how limited our understanding actually is.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Luke Pemberton on August 27, 2014, 05:53:19 AM
Oh boy, there is stupid, and there is stupid, but that takes stupid to a whole new level.

But wait kindly Sir, after pushing Percy's tired claim that the film was slowed down to half speed, he failed to understand that it was just not his math that had failed miserably, but the theory itself. Once the laughter had ceased and this significant point was explained, he turned on his haunches and with all the skill of a master groundsman moved the goalposts. He returned lily livered, and refusing to repudiate that the theory was as dead as a parrot after firing several 7.62 rounds into his metatarsals, he triumphantly declared:

'But the theory has always claimed that wires were used too, all I have done is shown that the film was slowed down to 67% speed and wires were used. The King is dead, long live the King.'

Go figure. I invoke the Underpants Gnomes once more.

1. Theory was wrong all along.
2. ?
3. New theory.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Luke Pemberton on August 27, 2014, 06:17:45 AM
IMHO, people that truly know stuff tend to be a lot more humble in their estimations of their abilities and our reservoir of knowledge. Because they know stuff they also know just how limited our understanding actually is.

Exactly true of my experience. When I first looked into the hoax with any sort of zeal I focused on the rocks and radiation as I knew that was the area where I was probably going to fair better. I felt that my experience gave me the skills and knowledge to become very well informed. I took about the task in my spare time and once I began researching I became deeply entrenched. This stems from my background (research scientist), I find one paper, and then I dig out the references and read those papers. I'll then read the references of the references until I have put all the strands together and feel that I have an informed view. I'll then try and understand the gaps in the record so I know the limits with the body of knowledge.

Believe me, there are numerous gaps in our understanding of solar and flare physics, yet I see the likes of the Blunder talk about the subject as though there are none. I have enough understanding that I know when he's making things up, I can identify topics that he scampers through with all the gusto of a city trader (hand waving) yet practitioners of those areas have still not resolved the science.

I'm now reading more about the rocketry involved and developing my orbital mechanics. I've been reading some interesting articles on the staging of the Saturn V, I was reading about pogo only yesterday, and am starting to scan Bob's site in preparation to have my head fried. None of this will ever make me an expert, it will make me a keen enthusiast. Jay explained it on the AWE130 thread, to him Apollo is not some fanciful idea in print, it's something very real, and the theorists don't understand this point. They think they know everything there is to know and more.

I'd rather be humble thanks.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Mag40 on August 27, 2014, 06:39:25 AM
I still like Jarrah's description of a polar orbit.

Didn't he wiggle away from that one too with some absurd claim that...

IIRC, this is what went down:

Firstly, he said the Apollo command and service module was placed in 'orbit' around the polar area kind of like a latitude line. This demonstrated an alarming lack of knowledge in orbital mechanics or what such a route entailed. The fuel use alone to maintain such a path would be enormous.

Secondly, the reasoning behind such a claim was by means of showing how NASA could have hidden the Apollo crafts from prying eyes. I suppose he thinks Arctic astronomers don't exist or wouldn't count.

Next, when everybody began laughing at his claims, he said it was a ruse by him to show how the ground track actually taken by Apollo was not possible. This is possibly the worst of the blunders. A genuine orbit taken 30 degrees inclined to the equatorial line was misinterpreted by him to mean (guessing his 'logic' here) on a path a few degrees above the tropic of Cancer or Capricorn.

This to him meant Apollo crafts would be unable to bypass the outer areas of the Van Halen Belts™, or something or other.
There are brainfarts and then there is stupid.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: sts60 on August 27, 2014, 09:21:11 AM
Secondly, the reasoning behind such a claim was by means of showing how NASA could have hidden the Apollo crafts from prying eyes. I suppose he thinks Arctic astronomers don't exist or wouldn't count.
It's worse than that.  Literally anybody in the Northern Hemisphere, and depending on the "latitude" of the orbit, parts of the Southern, could have seen them.  "Hey!  What's that bright thing buzzing around Polaris?!"
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: RAF on August 27, 2014, 09:30:34 AM
In my ranking of Wrong, somewhere past Fractally Wrong and even Not Even Wrong, and far beyond Trivially Wrong, is So Wrong it Became Right -- in some Looking-Glass, Bizarro world where the wrong thing is so wrong it starts to make some sort of twisted sense.

I am reminded of an old Asimov science essay...The Relativity of Wrong (http://hermiene.net/essays-trans/relativity_of_wrong.html).

Hard to believe he's been gone for over 20 years...I miss his wisdom.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: RAF on August 27, 2014, 09:39:47 AM
IIRC, this is what went down:

Firstly, he said the Apollo command and service module was placed in 'orbit' around the polar area kind of like a latitude line. This demonstrated an alarming lack of knowledge in orbital mechanics or what such a route entailed. The fuel use alone to maintain such a path would be enormous.

Is this type of orbit even possible?...or is it just a question of power. Wouldn't such a craft have to be under constant thrust to maintain such an orbit?

Safe to say that JW doesn't understand why we launch spacecraft in an eastward direction.



Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Allan F on August 27, 2014, 09:55:00 AM
IIRC, this is what went down:

Firstly, he said the Apollo command and service module was placed in 'orbit' around the polar area kind of like a latitude line. This demonstrated an alarming lack of knowledge in orbital mechanics or what such a route entailed. The fuel use alone to maintain such a path would be enormous.

Is this type of orbit even possible?...or is it just a question of power. Wouldn't such a craft have to be under constant thrust to maintain such an orbit?

Safe to say that JW doesn't understand why we launch spacecraft in an eastward direction.

Constant power needed, yes - directed at a right angle to the desired orbit. As soon as the engine is turned off, it'll resume a normal orbit, swinging north and south across the equator.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Bob B. on August 27, 2014, 11:03:05 AM
Is this type of orbit even possible?...or is it just a question of power. Wouldn't such a craft have to be under constant thrust to maintain such an orbit?

A spacecraft orbits around the center of mass of the primary (the body that it is orbiting).  To orbit in a manner described by Jarrah would require constant thrust, so much so that it is prohibitive.  In every practical sense such an orbit is impossible.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on August 27, 2014, 11:20:28 AM
Or in other words, every unaccelerated orbit exists in a plane, and that plane must include the center-of-gravity point of the primary object it orbits.  All orbits around Earth must be in a plane that passes through Earth's center.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Bob B. on August 27, 2014, 11:22:44 AM
'If I take the Apollo footage (Young's jump salute) and increase its speed to 150% (3/2 times) it looks like a man moving in Earth's gravity.

That claim by itself boggles my mind.  If people think it looks like movement in Earth gravity, then they should set up a camera and film themselves replicating those exact movements.  Just try to hop 3 or 4 feet with as little 'push off' as we see from the astronauts.  If people would just open their eyes, get off their butts and perform a simple experiment, they'd learn something.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Luke Pemberton on August 27, 2014, 11:36:43 AM
Just try to hop 3 or 4 feet with as little 'push off' as we see from the astronauts.

After he fluffed the maths and moved the numbers from Percy's 50% to 67%, a 3-4 feet jump is covered by having wires to pull him upwards. Of course this contradicts other claims that we didn't see the astronauts jump high, so they must have been in Earth's g.

Of course, you know, I know and we all know that it's just utter bunk with no evidence. You just need to have a leap of faith (deliberate pun) to go from duff maths to proving the the film was slowed by some arbitrary factor (67%) and wires were also included.

Explain the SHM of the SEQ bay pendulum then. I do believe that the motion is consistent with 1/6g.


ETA: Bob and I had the same numbers of posts before I posted this. What a coincidence... OK, no one cares.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Zakalwe on August 27, 2014, 11:52:13 AM
You just need to have a leap of faith (deliberate pun) to go from duff maths to proving the the film was slowed by some arbitrary factor (67%) and wires were also included.

And there's the essential failing in 99.99999% of the guff that HB spout. They seem to think that just because they imagine that something is possible then it follows that is how it happened.
I regularly imagine what I would do if I won the Lottery. History shows though that it has not happened!

ETA: Bob and I had the same numbers of posts before I posted this. What a coincidence... OK, no one cares.
Don't be like that! Here, have any cuddly toy off the middle shelf...  ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: RAF on August 27, 2014, 12:04:33 PM
Or in other words, every unaccelerated orbit exists in a plane, and that plane must include the center-of-gravity point of the primary object it orbits.  All orbits around Earth must be in a plane that passes through Earth's center.

Thanks...that's the way I've always understood it. It certainly makes the polar orbit claim pretty dopey.

edit....didn't actually mean to single out Jay's post...my thanks also to Bob B. and Allan F. for their posts. :)
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: frenat on August 27, 2014, 12:05:17 PM
You just need to have a leap of faith (deliberate pun) to go from duff maths to proving the the film was slowed by some arbitrary factor (67%) and wires were also included.

And there's the essential failing in 99.99999% of the guff that HB spout. They seem to think that just because they imagine that something is possible then it follows that is how it happened.
I regularly imagine what I would do if I won the Lottery. History shows though that it has not happened!


That reminds me of Cosmored/DavidC where he claims that if there is a plausible alternative explanation then you can't use it as proof of anything.  Of course "plausible" to him means he thought of it.  And it doesn't matter if there isn't a shred of evidence for this alternative explanation.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on August 27, 2014, 12:10:10 PM
It's just creative attempts to shift the burden of proof.  You have to show not only that a conspiracy was unlikey, or that by the observable evidence there wasn't one, but also that a conspiracy was flat-out impossible, even by purely speculative means.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Luke Pemberton on August 27, 2014, 12:11:18 PM
That reminds me of Cosmored/DavidC where he claims that if there is a plausible alternative explanation then you can't use it as proof of anything.

Is he/was he the serial spammer. I'm not a member of any others forums, bit I do lurk occasionally. I think he's been posting in ATS recently? When challenged to produce a radiation analysis (much like awe was) he said that 'you cannot use the radiation data as it is not trustworthy.'

It was then asked, 'what data do you base your argument on then Cosmored?'

This was met with a wall of silence.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: nomuse on August 27, 2014, 12:13:30 PM
In my ranking of Wrong, somewhere past Fractally Wrong and even Not Even Wrong, and far beyond Trivially Wrong, is So Wrong it Became Right -- in some Looking-Glass, Bizarro world where the wrong thing is so wrong it starts to make some sort of twisted sense.

I am reminded of an old Asimov science essay...The Relativity of Wrong (http://hermiene.net/essays-trans/relativity_of_wrong.html).

Hard to believe he's been gone for over 20 years...I miss his wisdom.

I love that essay and post links to it all the time.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Andromeda on August 27, 2014, 12:33:27 PM
'If I take the Apollo footage (Young's jump salute) and increase its speed to 150% (3/2 times) it looks like a man moving in Earth's gravity.

That claim by itself boggles my mind.  If people think it looks like movement in Earth gravity, then they should set up a camera and film themselves replicating those exact movements.  Just try to hop 3 or 4 feet with as little 'push off' as we see from the astronauts.  If people would just open their eyes, get off their butts and perform a simple experiment, they'd learn something.

Like they did on Mythbusters - they did it in Earth gravity on wires and then in equivalent of lunar gravity on the vomit comet.  I really enjoyed that one.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: RAF on August 27, 2014, 12:44:36 PM
I love that essay and post links to it all the time.

Yeah, I must have linked to it at least 3 times over the years. Personally, I own about hmmm...85 to 90% of his science essay books...I wish his family would release all of them to the internet, but I understand there is money to be made.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Allan F on August 27, 2014, 12:45:04 PM
edit....didn't actually mean to single out Jay's post...my thanks also to Bob B. and Allan F. for their posts. :)

Well, it should be possible to calculate the needed thrust as a function of vehicle mass and the latitude (can't remember what's latitude or longtitude - bear over with me if I'm wrong) required.

In an equatorial orbit, the thrust should be zero, in a "polar Jarrah orbit" the thrust should be equal to the gravity exerted on the craft.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Luke Pemberton on August 27, 2014, 12:45:11 PM
I am reminded of an old Asimov science essay...The Relativity of Wrong (http://hermiene.net/essays-trans/relativity_of_wrong.html).

That's an interesting article, and helps me frame the conspiracy theorists mindset. When reading through I thought about the Moon and its atmosphere. I've seen ka9q use the Moon's atmosphere as an example.

Conventional wisdom tells us that the Moon has no atmosphere but it does, as reported by this NASA article (http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/LADEE/news/lunar-atmosphere.html#.U_4FffldVFs). It is a niche area of science and not relevant when we talk about the vacuum of space and astronauts, so for all intents and purposes we omit this information and yield to a model that fits our everyday needs. Consequently, the idea that the Moon has no atmosphere pervades common language, much like 'close the door you'll let the cold in' or 'heat rises.' When we talk about science in a colloquial sense, we omit the detail or speak with misconceptions, but everyone understands our meaning.

The conspiracy theorist armed with a little knowledge seizes upon words. A good example is Jarrah and the Clavius article (http://www.clavius.org/envrocks.html) about moon rocks:

Geologists say lunar rocks aren't any different from the basalts found in earth's oceans. Clearly NASA just recovered seabed basalts and passed them off as lunar rocks.

It's not true that geologists don't see a major difference between earth seabed basalts and lunar rocks. Lunar rocks are anhydrous -- they contain no water and there is no evidence of the presence of water in their formation. This is not true of seabed basalts. Seabed basalts are simply the earth mineral that most closely resembles lunar rock.


(reproduced without the kind permission of the author)

Of course, with recent data confirming the presence of water on the Moon, Jay is a big poopy-face liar once more. Aside from where the main sources of water are found (at the poles and in the shadows of craters) and where Apollo landed (equatorial regions in direct sunlight), the main point is the presence of water in their formation. I take this to read that the rocks were not formed in the presence of vast quantities of water, and therefore do not contain the quantity of secondary minerals associated with rocks formed on Earth where water is abundant.

Again, my interpretation of Clavius  is that Jay has taken a vast subject (Lunar geology) and explained it in one paragraph. The conclusion is correct without the needing to faithfully reproduce the supporting data and niche science. In the mind of a conspiracist Jay is covering up the lie. In the mind of a rational thinker, Jay is trying to convey the main point.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: gwiz on August 27, 2014, 12:46:14 PM

Again, I cannot find the post, but the C rock photo also appeared on the front of a magazine within weeks of the Apollo 16 landings. Again, no C was visible on the rock. I'm sure the magazine cover was posted when on the proboards.
It's here:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/13325730833/

Edit: I see I was beaten to it, should have read more of the thread.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Chew on August 27, 2014, 12:50:12 PM
Is this type of orbit even possible?...or is it just a question of power. Wouldn't such a craft have to be under constant thrust to maintain such an orbit?

On a metabunk thread about Malaysia flight 17 one poster was certain the shoot down was seen by US spy satellites because the US would certainly have "parked" spy satellites over the area to monitor the unrest in the Ukraine.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Luke Pemberton on August 27, 2014, 01:08:03 PM
On a metabunk thread about Malaysia flight 17 one poster was certain the shoot down was seen by US spy satellites because the US would certainly have "parked" spy satellites over the area to monitor the unrest in the Ukraine.

They just use air brakes.  ;D
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Zakalwe on August 27, 2014, 01:35:54 PM
They just use air brakes.  ;D

A big anchor and a very long chain?  :o
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Glom on August 27, 2014, 01:48:29 PM



And there's the essential failing in 99.99999% of the guff that HB spout. They seem to think that just because they imagine that something is possible then it follows that is how it happened.
I regularly imagine what I would do if I won the Lottery. History shows though that it has not happened!

That's just fine. I imagine 6 lunar landings between 1969 and 1972 are possible therefore they happened.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: smartcooky on August 27, 2014, 03:53:17 PM
Is this type of orbit even possible?...or is it just a question of power. Wouldn't such a craft have to be under constant thrust to maintain such an orbit?

A spacecraft orbits around the center of mass of the primary (the body that it is orbiting).  To orbit in a manner described by Jarrah would require constant thrust, so much so that it is prohibitive.  In every practical sense such an orbit is impossible.

.. in fact, I'm not even sure such a path can even be classed as an orbit, by definition

"an orbit is the gravitationally curved path of an object around a point in space"

Even though gravity will cause some of the curvature, surely the bulk of it would be caused by the thrust applied?


Speaking of orbits, and slightly off topic, I watched a fascinating programme on "BBC Knowledge" last night called "The Truth about Voyager". It had a detailed explanation of how the "Grand Tour" concept came about for the Voyager missions to the outer planets, including the solving of the "three body problem" using a computer the size of a large room. It also had the most elegant description of how the gravitational slingshot works, including a something that hadn't previously occurred to me; its the speed through space of the planet being approached that is the key factor in the acceleration of the spacecraft as it is literally flung in its new direction. It was a truly interesting programme that goes right back the the 1960s to the very birth of the concept.   
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: smartcooky on August 27, 2014, 03:57:53 PM

Again, I cannot find the post, but the C rock photo also appeared on the front of a magazine within weeks of the Apollo 16 landings. Again, no C was visible on the rock. I'm sure the magazine cover was posted when on the proboards.
It's here:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/13325730833/

Edit: I see I was beaten to it, should have read more of the thread.

Sheesh... AW&ST for a dollar a copy!!!
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Chew on August 27, 2014, 04:24:20 PM
It also had the most elegant description of how the gravitational slingshot works...

This article at the Planetary Society helped me wrap my mind around it a lot better: http://www.planetary.org/blogs/guest-blogs/2013/20130926-gravity-assist.html

The Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_slingshot) is pretty good too.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Luke Pemberton on August 27, 2014, 04:30:36 PM
It also had the most elegant description of how the gravitational slingshot works...

This article at the Planetary Society helped me wrap my mind around it a lot better: http://www.planetary.org/blogs/guest-blogs/2013/20130926-gravity-assist.html

The Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_slingshot) is pretty good too.

Interesting links. Have you ever looked at the Phet physics simulation (https://phet.colorado.edu/sims/my-solar-system/my-solar-system_en.html) of various orbits? I quite like the visual impact.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Chew on August 27, 2014, 04:35:10 PM
Yes! I have provided that link many times to people making grand claims but who obviously didn't understand celestial mechanics.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on August 27, 2014, 05:02:09 PM
...impact.

No pun intended.

Reminds me of the Kuiper object plotting some people were doing with supercomputers.  N-body gravitation, where n is around 800.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Luke Pemberton on August 27, 2014, 05:18:51 PM
...impact.
No pun intended.

Not that time. Well spotted.

Quote
Reminds me of the Kuiper object plotting some people were doing with supercomputers.  N-body gravitation, where n is around 800.

Three bodies is bloody hard enough, but n -> 800, I can understand why you needed a supercomputer. You've mentioned the Kuiper object problem before, why were they being plotted (If you can't explain, I understand)? Is it related to the New Horizons project?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on August 27, 2014, 05:39:58 PM
...why were they being plotted (If you can't explain, I understand)? Is it related to the New Horizons project?

No, it's not related to New Horizons.  Some university was investigating various models of the Kuiper belt formation.  I can't explain in detail because I wasn't that intimately involved.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Bob B. on August 27, 2014, 06:54:35 PM
Well, it should be possible to calculate the needed thrust as a function of vehicle mass and the latitude (can't remember what's latitude or longtitude - bear over with me if I'm wrong) required.

In an equatorial orbit, the thrust should be zero, in a "polar Jarrah orbit" the thrust should be equal to the gravity exerted on the craft.

I decided to put pencil to paper and came up with some crazy numbers.  I assumed we're going to "orbit" about the artic circle.  To get there I figure we'd launch into a normal orbit with an inclination of 66.5 degrees.  When arriving at the northernmost part of our orbit we'd be over the artic circle.  We'd then burn our engine to keep us circling over the latitude of 66.5o N.  I assumed we'd retain our original speed, thus allowing us to return to the original orbit just be shutting off the engine.  I assumed an orbital radius of 6,600 km (an altitude of about 230 km).

Any object moving in a curved path has a centripetal acceleration that points in toward the center of curvature.  For a body in a orbit around Earth, that acceleration is provided by gravity and is directed toward the center of Earth.  For our initial orbit, the centripetal acceleration is about 9.15 m/s2.  This is less than the surface value of 9.8 m/s2 because we're further away.  The velocity of our spacecraft is 7,771 m/s.

To constantly orbit above the artic circle we must follow a curve of much smaller radius, which is 6600*cos(66.5) = 2,632 km.  The centripetal acceleration needed to maintain this curved path is calculated using the equation v2/r.  Since we're maintaining our initial velocity, the required centripetal acceleration is 77712/2632000 = 22.95 m/s2.  The center of curvature, toward which the acceleration is directed, is located at the intersection of Earth's polar axis with the plane containing the artic circle.

The acceleration that our engine must provide to maintain this orbit is the difference between the acceleration vector of the "Jarrah orbit" and the acceleration vector of gravity.  Note the use of the word vector.  We must subtract one vector from the other, thus we must account for both magnitude and direction.  We calculate the required acceleration as follows:

SQRT[ (22.95 - 9.15*cos(66.5))2 + (0 - 9.15*sin(66.5))2 ] = 21.05 m/s2

That's 2.15 g that must be continuously applied to maintain the Jarrah orbit.  The Apollo SPS engine produced only about 0.3 to 0.8 g, depending on the mass of fuel remaining.  It could also only burn for about 10 minutes before the fuel was gone.

(ETA)  Let's say we placed a rocket stage on the artic circle fueled with LOX and LH2.  The best mass ratio we could expect from this would be about 10.  Given this configuration we'd get a delta-V of about 10,000 m/s.  Providing an acceleration of 21.05 m/s2, we'd last about 8 minutes before going kaput.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Allan F on August 27, 2014, 08:26:22 PM
Brilliant - just shows how little the hoaxers know and WANT to know.

And the total dV you have calculated is inside one order of magnitude of the total dV of the Saturn V launching an Apollo mission into LEO - and the burn time is also close. So you'd need a fully fueled Saturn V for roughly each 10-minute part of a Jarrah Orbit (TM).

edit: Total dV is 30% from a fully fuelled Saturn V stack - which burned for 11 ½ minute before TLI.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Bob B. on August 27, 2014, 09:18:02 PM
Damn, I just noticed that I kept spelling arctic as artic.  I hate that I did that and it's too late to edit.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: smartcooky on August 27, 2014, 09:44:30 PM
What happens when the vehicle in the "Jarrah" orbit runs out of fuel? Does it carry on in an earth-centric orbit at the inclination (in the direction) it happened to be going in when the fuel ran out?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on August 27, 2014, 10:15:43 PM
What happens when the vehicle in the "Jarrah" orbit runs out of fuel? Does it carry on in an earth-centric orbit at the inclination (in the direction) it happened to be going in when the fuel ran out?

Altitude, direction, and velocity at cutoff determine what orbit follows.  Generally if you're describing a constant-latitude, constant altitude orbit, it seems to me you'll go into a circular orbit at that altitude with an inclination equivalent to your latitude and the ascended antinode aligned with the longitude at cutoff.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: smartcooky on August 27, 2014, 11:21:26 PM
What happens when the vehicle in the "Jarrah" orbit runs out of fuel? Does it carry on in an earth-centric orbit at the inclination (in the direction) it happened to be going in when the fuel ran out?

Altitude, direction, and velocity at cutoff determine what orbit follows.  Generally if you're describing a constant-latitude, constant altitude orbit, it seems to me you'll go into a circular orbit at that altitude with an inclination equivalent to your latitude and the ascended antinode aligned with the longitude at cutoff.

OK, so I'm just trying to get my head around what that means.

If you were to draw a circle, centred on the centre of the earth, that intersected the vehicle in the "Jarrah" orbit at the point at which it ran out of fuel with the tangents of the circle and the "Jarrah" orbit coinciding exactly, then the circle will be the new orbit. True?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on August 27, 2014, 11:34:56 PM
OK, so I'm just trying to get my head around what that means.

If you were to draw a circle, centred on the centre of the earth, that intersected the vehicle in the "Jarrah" orbit at the point at which it ran out of fuel with the tangents of the circle and the "Jarrah" orbit coinciding exactly, then the circle will be the new orbit. True?

True.  The eccentricity of the orbit would depend on the velocity along the big, Earth-centered circle.  But you have the important concept.  I need to go back and read Bob's post again to make sure we're both thinking of the same velocity vectors.  But one of the great concepts of orbital mechanics is that your state vector at engine cutoff uniquely and instantly defines your orbit.

Bob is paying very close attention to force vectors -- and he needs to so that his ship stays flying in its highly unnatural orbit.  But at cutoff only the velocity vector and the ship's position matter.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: smartcooky on August 28, 2014, 12:02:10 AM
OK, so I'm just trying to get my head around what that means.

If you were to draw a circle, centred on the centre of the earth, that intersected the vehicle in the "Jarrah" orbit at the point at which it ran out of fuel with the tangents of the circle and the "Jarrah" orbit coinciding exactly, then the circle will be the new orbit. True?

True.  The eccentricity of the orbit would depend on the velocity along the big, Earth-centered circle.  But you have the important concept.  I need to go back and read Bob's post again to make sure we're both thinking of the same velocity vectors.  But one of the great concepts of orbital mechanics is that your state vector at engine cutoff uniquely and instantly defines your orbit.

Bob is paying very close attention to force vectors -- and he needs to so that his ship stays flying in its highly unnatural orbit.  But at cutoff only the velocity vector and the ship's position matter.

Thanks jay
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Bob B. on August 28, 2014, 12:13:28 AM
The way that I constructed my scenario, when the fuel runs out the spacecraft will return to the original orbit with a radius of 6,600 km and an inclination of 66.5 degrees, however the ascending and descending nodes will have changed.

Note that when the spacecraft reaches the northernmost part of its original orbit, it is traveling at 7,771 m/s in a due east heading of 90 degrees.  In the Jarrah orbit I'm constantly maintaining that velocity and heading (and using an excessive amount of propulsion to due so).  When the fuel runs out, the spacecraft is still traveling due east at 7,771 m/s, so the resulting orbit has the same radius and inclination as the original.  However, since the spacecraft completed a partial 'orbit' around the arctic circle before the fuel ran out, the longitude of the northernmost point has changed, therefore the nodes have shifted eastward.

I purposely did not change the velocity when reaching the arctic circle so the result at engine cutoff would be as described above.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on August 28, 2014, 12:26:30 AM
The way that I constructed my scenario, when the fuel runs out the spacecraft will return to the original orbit with a radius of 6,600 km and an inclination of 66.5 degrees, however the ascending and descending nodes will have changed.

That's what I meant by the ascended antinode most likely being at the (arbitrary) point where the engine cuts out.

In orbital mechanics, a "node" is where the orbital path crosses some reference plane.  For Earth orbits, the reference plane is Earth's equator.  The ascending node -- the point at which it crosses from below the equator to above it -- is one of the classic orbital elements (the half-dozen numbers that can describe any orbit).  The antinodes are, consequently, the high and low points of the orbital inclination.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on August 28, 2014, 12:27:59 AM
skeptic_UK, we've ventured far afield from your original question.  Are you getting all the help you expected?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Bob B. on August 28, 2014, 12:32:57 AM
The antinodes are...

I'm not sure I've ever seen that term before.  Surprising considering how much I've read on the subject.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on August 28, 2014, 12:42:22 AM
Nodes are more interesting because they have interesting first derivatives.  Hence they are more useful in the mathematical conceptualization.  Antinodes have boring first derivatives in and, if necessary, can be trivially derived from nodes.  But from the informal perspective they are a little more descriptive and helpful.

If you can imagine the ground track that you see on NASA TV and other sources, the nodes are where the ground track crosses the equator and the antinodes are the high and low points of the sinusoidal path.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Jockndoris on August 28, 2014, 04:09:38 AM
You obviously don’t know that there is a book published just recently in the UK called  Haunted by Neil Armstrong by Neil Burns.   Google should find it for you.
It claims that the astronaut played golf in Honolulu near Pearl Harbour on the very day he was supposed to be on the Moon in 1969!   It’s not available in the USA so I don’t think you could get a copy.  If it’s true of course it might be the proof everybody has been waiting for.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: johnbutcher on August 28, 2014, 02:21:47 PM


If you can imagine the ground track that you see on NASA TV and other sources, the nodes are where the ground track crosses the equator and the antinodes are the high and low points of the sinusoidal path.
[/quote]

Ahh! thank you now i can visualise what you and bob are talking about. excellent image.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: skeptic_UK on August 31, 2014, 09:17:12 AM
skeptic_UK, we've ventured far afield from your original question.  Are you getting all the help you expected?

I've enjoyed reading the posts actually! Found some good links I will check out!
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: skeptic_UK on August 31, 2014, 09:18:08 AM
You obviously don’t know that there is a book published just recently in the UK called  Haunted by Neil Armstrong by Neil Burns.   Google should find it for you.
It claims that the astronaut played golf in Honolulu near Pearl Harbour on the very day he was supposed to be on the Moon in 1969!   It’s not available in the USA so I don’t think you could get a copy.  If it’s true of course it might be the proof everybody has been waiting for.

Sounds interesting! Will look it up. Thanks.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Tedward on August 31, 2014, 09:22:51 AM
Actually, he was around my house having a cup of tea and a biscuit, Jaffa Cake I think, the tea was Darjeeling with a slice of lemon, we were watching the landing on TV. Just not got around to writing a book about it.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: raven on August 31, 2014, 09:32:41 AM
Actually, he was around my house having a cup of tea and a biscuit, Jaffa Cake I think, the tea was Darjeeling with a slice of lemon, we were watching the landing on TV. Just not got around to writing a book about it.
Please, everyone knows Armstrong takes his tea like Picard. ;)
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: darren r on August 31, 2014, 10:33:05 AM
You obviously don’t know that there is a book published just recently in the UK called  Haunted by Neil Armstrong by Neil Burns.   Google should find it for you.
It claims that the astronaut played golf in Honolulu near Pearl Harbour on the very day he was supposed to be on the Moon in 1969!   It’s not available in the USA so I don’t think you could get a copy.  If it’s true of course it might be the proof everybody has been waiting for.

You should probably mention that you are its publishers. Anyway, I've read the synopsis and it's the ramblings of a fantasist.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Bob B. on August 31, 2014, 11:41:15 AM
It claims...

Anything can be claimed; doesn't mean a thing.  All that matters is what can be proved.

If it’s true...

That's the $64,000 question.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Luke Pemberton on August 31, 2014, 12:19:36 PM
Actually, he was around my house having a cup of tea and a biscuit, Jaffa Cake I think, the tea was Darjeeling with a slice of lemon, we were watching the landing on TV. Just not got around to writing a book about it.

Liar, liar, he was with me playing bridge and I was on the surface of Mars at the time. The UK had a covert space programme and we landed there first, about 10 minutes before the Eagle. We had a nice cup of tea on the Martian surface. I helped him and Buzz fix the switch that was broken in the LM. I used a piece of bubble gum, a rusty nail and an old paper clip. I took the elastic from my space underpants too.

Where do these people surface from? Really, if there was the slightest credibility in the story, the press would be all over it like a rash. Watergate anyone?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on August 31, 2014, 12:20:14 PM
You should probably mention that you are its publishers. Anyway, I've read the synopsis and it's the ramblings of a fantasist.

When the publisher's synopsis contains the sentences, "However, when Neil Armstrong died in 2012, lots of memories started flooding back [to the author]," and "Read how the author met Neil Armstrong's ghost several times and how he recalled with complete freedom the secrets behind the greatest military hoax of all times," you know you're about to be swindled.

Yes, since you're not apparently making your book generally available, Jockndoris, please fill us in on whether the it's intended to be factual.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: raven on August 31, 2014, 12:26:48 PM
It would be a little silly, to put it mildly. Why even let them out of whatever facility they would have been doing the filming in and risk being spotted? As astronauts (and they were astronauts, each Apollo 11 astronaut was a LEO veteran from Gemini), it's not like they weren't used to being confined.  Besides, if they were on the ground, how did they film the scenes of extended weightlessness in the film and video? No, even as a hoax claim, the whole idea fails under the mildest scrutiny.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on August 31, 2014, 12:27:39 PM
That's the $64,000 question.

Since it appears his evidence is the author's conversations with the ghost of Neil Armstrong, I'm keeping my money.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Allan F on August 31, 2014, 12:30:51 PM
How do you verify the identity of a ghost? It could be some other ghost impersonating imghostonating the ghost of Armstrong.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: raven on August 31, 2014, 12:41:36 PM
How do you verify the identity of a ghost? It could be some other ghost impersonating imghostonating the ghost of Armstrong.
Objection! A ghost is still a person, just deceased. ;)
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Allan F on August 31, 2014, 12:44:18 PM
How do you verify the identity of a ghost? It could be some other ghost impersonating imghostonating the ghost of Armstrong.
Objection! A ghost is still a person, just deceased. ;)

I would like you to point me to an article in a reputable scientific publication which can substantiate that -  :P
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Andromeda on August 31, 2014, 01:00:30 PM
How do you verify the identity of a ghost? It could be some other ghost impersonating imghostonating the ghost of Armstrong.
Objection! A ghost is still a person, just deceased. ;)

I would like you to point me to an article in a reputable scientific publication which can substantiate that -  :P

Will a YouTube link do?  ;)
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Allan F on August 31, 2014, 01:06:41 PM
Quote
reputable scientific publication

I think that's a "no".
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: LunarOrbit on August 31, 2014, 01:52:55 PM
Since it appears his evidence is the author's conversations with the ghost of Neil Armstrong...

Does Neil Armstrong's ghost get a cut of the book sales? We all know how careful he was about people using his fame for profit.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: raven on August 31, 2014, 02:10:16 PM
How do you verify the identity of a ghost? It could be some other ghost impersonating imghostonating the ghost of Armstrong.
Objection! A ghost is still a person, just deceased. ;)

I would like you to point me to an article in a reputable scientific publication which can substantiate that -  :P
It's an ethical question, not a scientific one. Assuming ghosts exist that is, a rather large assumption, I admit.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Tedward on August 31, 2014, 03:16:11 PM
How do you verify the identity of a ghost? It could be some other ghost impersonating imghostonating the ghost of Armstrong.

You ask it. You say "whoooooooooooo are you......"
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: dwight on August 31, 2014, 03:21:36 PM
Man oh man, the quality of hoaxers has seriously taken a dive. If they were flying a plane they'd have the instruments calling out "LANDING GEAR" and "DON'T SINK" as they would so dangerously close to the ground!
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: smartcooky on August 31, 2014, 03:22:33 PM
Liar, liar, he was with me playing bridge and I was on the surface of Mars at the time. The UK had a covert space programme and we landed there first, about 10 minutes before the Eagle. We had a nice cup of tea on the Martian surface. I helped him and Buzz fix the switch that was broken in the LM. I used a piece of bubble gum, a rusty nail and an old paper clip. I took the elastic from my space underpants too.


Luke, have you ever seen "Alternative Three"



I have met conspiritards who think this was for real; they don't realise this is a mocumentary.

Oh, the stupid!!!




(NOTE: Last edit to correct wrong link)
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Luke Pemberton on August 31, 2014, 04:26:11 PM
Oh, the stupid!!!

I'm not sure there is much to debate any more. I believe the moon hoax has exhaled it's last breath and is no more. It is not what it was, that is for sure. It has a fringe following and it's certainly not the 'movement' that the Blunder refers to. I don't see angry crowds demanding to know where billions of dollars were squandered.

Most people are eeking out a living in these austere times, and they are certainly not worried about the hoax theory. The politic in the UK focuses on our stance on Europe and immigration, the Scotland debate, and the state of our NHS and education system. People are deciding whether to vote for UKIP or ditch Liberal for Labour. These are the real issues that matter to people. I don't see people in coffee shops or bars discussing Apollo. Even to be on the side of Apollo is deemed a bit odd at times. I've  discussed the moon hoax with people, and the subject is usually met with 'does it really matter? Apollo really landed man on the Moon, why are you even bother talking about a lunatic fringe element.'

I've even discussed Apollo with no conspiratorial context. People aren't interested as a rule. If the HBs can't see this, then they must be deluded or financialy/emotionally invested in the theory.

Being on community radio, making a YT video or making a nuisance of yourself in public readily demonstrates the mentality of those that are still heavily invested in the theory. It's just an absurd oddity in life.

I'm sure we'll have others such as awe arrive here, but they're so rare now. When they come they are worth challenging so we can point to their lack of arguments.

Almost every major world event is surrounded by conspiracy because the snake oil salesmen can make a dirty buck or two. With the information age, conspiracy has become more accessible, it's become an industry, and where there is industry there is a competitive market for the product. Those that package their conspiracy well take the lion's share of the exposure - they ultimately profit.

I made a note of TV coverage during the 50th anniversary of JFK's assassination. There was barely a mention of the event, let alone the conspiracy theories. Maybe the TV schedulers avoided the theories out of respect for JFK. Given the popular nature of the JFK conspiracy, I thought more would have been made of it. Conspiracies come and go, and the moon hoax has gone.

9/11 put the last nail in the HBs product. Kaysing and Rene are gone, Fox made their special. It had some gravitas for a while, some people talked about it, and some people seized upon it for a profit making venture. It's now a faded product, all that's left is an absurd freak show that is wheeled out once in a while so we can mock it and poke it with a stick. The arguments have been debunked, it is no more.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: RAF on September 01, 2014, 08:46:32 AM
I've  discussed the moon hoax with people, and the subject is usually met with 'does it really matter? Apollo really landed man on the Moon, why are you even bother talking about a lunatic fringe element.'

That's the usual response I get. Personally, I have met exactly "one" person in the last decade who even brought up the Moon hoax....and I don't think that person really believes Apollo was faked...they just like the rise they get out of me when they mention it.

Like others have posted, if the Moon hoax isn't dead, it's certainly on it's last legs.




Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Peter B on September 01, 2014, 09:46:14 AM
The thing that struck me about Capricorn One - even as a layman space travel buff who, at the time, had barely even heard about moon hoax believers - was that it was just so damn stupid.  Going to Mars in what appeared to be an unmodified Apollo stack?  Landing on Mars - right through the atmosphere - in a Lunar Module?

Those issues didn't bother me with the movie, although they were certainly incongruous. The point was that the Saturn V was playing the role of "Big Honking Mars Rocket" and the LM was playing the role of "Mars Lander", in much the same way the actors were playing characters.

Quote
No radio chatter about news and sports scores (impossible to tape in advance), even while they were in reasonable radio range? No panoramas of the Mars landscape - just a single static shot of the LM? And on and on, ad nauseum.

These were more significant issues, but still not the main reason the movie fails for me.

Quote
I understand that the movie maker was focused on the conspiracy aspect, and that enjoying science fiction usually requires a certain suspension of disbelief, but the tonnage of disbelief was just too much for me to get off the ground. It was as if they thought that going to Mars was the same as going to the moon, just a little further away.  And Peter Hyams really had no excuse for not knowing better, or for thinking that his audience - a generation that had grown up with Mercury-Gemini-Apollo - wouldn't know better.

Maybe so.

For me the movie falls apart because the conspiracy itself is implausible.

For one example, the reporter hero decides to visit his NASA Mission Control mate, only to find a strange woman living in the apartment (The Powers That Be have disposed of him for asking awkward questions). With a pile of rent statements conveniently available it seems the woman's been living there for years, and the reporter retreats, baffled. But this was an apartment complex. Why didn't he ask a few of the neighbours in the apartment complex what had happened to his mate?

He then goes back to his car, which was parked in the street. However as he drives off he finds it's been sabotaged; the accelerator is jammed on while the ignition won't turn off and the brakes don't work. Fortunately the saboteurs left him a working steering wheel and horn, so he's able to warn other drivers as he speeds around the city and eventually safely crashes into water. Even so, that's a pretty impressive sequence of things to sabotage in a car in the couple of minutes the reporter is in the apartment, with apparently none of the neighbours noticing anything being done to the car. And anyway, wouldn't it have been easier to just blow up the car or stage a mugging-gone-wrong?

Finally, the intrepid reporter heads out to a deserted Western town which one of the astronauts had visited before the mission. There he's shot at twice by a gunman working for TPTB, but both shots miss. The reporter runs back to his car and drives off. Two shots? And they both miss? If TPTB wanted him dead (as the earlier sabotage and their actions towards the astronauts suggested) why didn't the gunman fire a few more shots, or chase after the reporter?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 01, 2014, 02:08:09 PM
The point was that the Saturn V was playing the role of "Big Honking Mars Rocket" and the LM was playing the role of "Mars Lander", in much the same way the actors were playing characters.

Indeed, but what strange casting.  Even as a youngster I knew you couldn't send an Apollo stack to Mars.  I knew the Saturn V didn't have the payload-to-orbit capacity, I knew the CSM couldn't carry enough expendables, and I knew the LM was no good for an atmospheric landing.

There were reasons.  Hyams wanted every aspect of the film except for the plot to be as utterly unremakrable as possible, and for him that meant showing real space hardware.  It was gamble that worked for some people but not for others.  The actor-playing-a-role explanation is as good an urge as any to just pretend it's uber-realistic space hardware.

Quote
For me the movie falls apart because the conspiracy itself is implausible.

It's not hard to see why conspiracy theorists hold this movie up as an example of realism on that point -- their own theories are full of exactly the same nonsense and plot holes.  They can't see the plot holes in Capricorn One probably for the same reason they can't evaluate the objective credibility of their own theories.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Jockndoris on September 01, 2014, 02:21:25 PM
You should probably mention that you are its publishers. Anyway, I've read the synopsis and it's the ramblings of a fantasist.

When the publisher's synopsis contains the sentences, "However, when Neil Armstrong died in 2012, lots of memories started flooding back [to the author]," and "Read how the author met Neil Armstrong's ghost several times and how he recalled with complete freedom the secrets behind the greatest military hoax of all times," you know you're about to be swindled.

Yes, since you're not apparently making your book generally available, Jockndoris, please fill us in on whether the it's intended to be factual.
Of course the book is based on fact.  As I state on the back of the book 
‘These stories are absolutely true-exactly as I recall them.’
Just to make absolutely sure I flew 21 hours to Honolulu in November 2013.
I checked at the Navy Marine Golf Club near Pearl Harbor that I had played golf with Neil Armstrong on 21 July 1969.  They gave me a great welcome and were able to confirm that we won the competition on that day. All the details are in the book which is available on our website   www.jockndoris.co.uk  where you can order a copy to be sent airmail.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 01, 2014, 02:38:36 PM
Of course the book is based on fact.

So you're prepared to prove that the ghost of Neil Armstrong visited its author.

Quote
‘These stories are absolutely true-exactly as I recall them.’

And your memory is infallible?  And you claim to talk to ghosts?
 
Quote
Just to make absolutely sure I flew 21 hours to Honolulu in November 2013. I checked at the Navy Marine Golf Club near Pearl Harbor that I had played golf with Neil Armstrong on 21 July 1969.  They gave me a great welcome and were able to confirm that we won the competition on that day.

Please list here the name of the person at the golf club to whom you spoke and who, according to you, confirmed that the astronaut Neil Armstrong played golf there with you on that date.  I will be verifying your story.

Quote
All the details are in the book which is available on our website   www.jockndoris.co.uk  where you can order a copy to be sent airmail.

I'm not paying for your book, but feel free to send me a complimentary review copy.

If you're going to shill your commercial products here, you had better pretend to give details when asked, and give them here.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 01, 2014, 02:47:38 PM
Quote
Haunted by Neil Armstrong (ISBN: 978-0-9535748-3-4) is 64 pages long costs £9.95 and should be of interest to anyone who thinks the Moon Landings might have been a Hoax. It shows that on 21 July 1969 the day that Neil Armstrong was supposed to be landing on the Moon he was in fact playing golf with the author at the Navy Marine course in Honolulu near Pearl Harbor. The entry in the visitors book showing they won the competition states so. Recommended for all including the sceptics.

The Full Story (ISBN: 97809535748-4-1) carries on where Haunted left off to give a full 96 pages at a cost of £11.95. It tells of visits to the astronauts training grounds including underground Caves. The author was given full rein to his imagination and recalls with complete freedom a meeting with Ellison Onizuka. Meet Neil Armstrong's ghost in 2013 and hear how the Moon Landings were really done !! and what he thinks we should do now to really get into Space.

From your website, JocknDoris.  Do you honestly think anyone is going to read these summaries and believe that your writings are intended as anything except a fictional send-up?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Allan F on September 01, 2014, 03:19:20 PM
You should probably mention that you are its publishers. Anyway, I've read the synopsis and it's the ramblings of a fantasist.

When the publisher's synopsis contains the sentences, "However, when Neil Armstrong died in 2012, lots of memories started flooding back [to the author]," and "Read how the author met Neil Armstrong's ghost several times and how he recalled with complete freedom the secrets behind the greatest military hoax of all times," you know you're about to be swindled.

Yes, since you're not apparently making your book generally available, Jockndoris, please fill us in on whether the it's intended to be factual.
Of course the book is based on fact.  As I state on the back of the book 
‘These stories are absolutely true-exactly as I recall them.’
Just to make absolutely sure I flew 21 hours to Honolulu in November 2013.
I checked at the Navy Marine Golf Club near Pearl Harbor that I had played golf with Neil Armstrong on 21 July 1969.  They gave me a great welcome and were able to confirm that we won the competition on that day. All the details are in the book which is available on our website   www.jockndoris.co.uk  where you can order a copy to be sent airmail.

William? Is that you?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: frenat on September 01, 2014, 03:24:31 PM
Quote
Haunted by Neil Armstrong (ISBN: 978-0-9535748-3-4) is 64 pages long costs £9.95 and should be of interest to anyone who thinks the Moon Landings might have been a Hoax. It shows that on 21 July 1969 the day that Neil Armstrong was supposed to be landing on the Moon he was in fact playing golf with the author at the Navy Marine course in Honolulu near Pearl Harbor. The entry in the visitors book showing they won the competition states so. Recommended for all including the sceptics.

The Full Story (ISBN: 97809535748-4-1) carries on where Haunted left off to give a full 96 pages at a cost of £11.95. It tells of visits to the astronauts training grounds including underground Caves. The author was given full rein to his imagination and recalls with complete freedom a meeting with Ellison Onizuka. Meet Neil Armstrong's ghost in 2013 and hear how the Moon Landings were really done !! and what he thinks we should do now to really get into Space.

From your website, JocknDoris.  Do you honestly think anyone is going to read these summaries and believe that your writings are intended as anything except a fictional send-up?
Sounds like a bad fan-fiction.
Ignoring for a second that NONE of the hoax evidence stands up to scrutiny, we're supposed to believe that in the middle of the hoax, NASA just let Neil travel to Hawaii, play in what looks like a publicized golf tournament, and sign the visitor's log with his real name?  And that nobody happened to notice?  And that the log from 50+ years ago even still exists?
 ::)
Yeah, sounds like bad fan-fiction.  At least it has as much credibility and consistency as all the rest of the hoax crap.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: RAF on September 01, 2014, 03:48:12 PM
Of course the book is based on fact.

Oh brother...another one...

edit to add...ya know what?...I really wish that ghosts were real, so that Neil could haunt the crap out of this joker for LYING about his greatest accomplishment.

Haunt him to the point of insanity. Brruuuhahahahaha...

Wow, I'm feeling particularly evil today...must be the heat. :)
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: onebigmonkey on September 01, 2014, 04:04:18 PM
This bit:

Quote
on 21 July 1969 the day that Neil Armstrong was supposed to be landing on the Moon he was in fact playing golf with the author at the Navy Marine course in Honolulu near Pearl Harbor.

is not true.

I'm not sure if I can put it any more simply, Neil.

http://www.ukuva.co.uk/author.htm

Give my love to the cats.


Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: smartcooky on September 01, 2014, 04:05:16 PM
Of course the book is based on fact.  As I state on the back of the book 
‘These stories are absolutely true-exactly as I recall them.’

I have no trouble believing that, because I know that delusional people really do believe that what happens to them while they are experiencing a delusion, is real.

Just to make absolutely sure I flew 21 hours to Honolulu in November 2013.
I checked at the Navy Marine Golf Club near Pearl Harbor that I had played golf with Neil Armstrong on 21 July 1969.  They gave me a great welcome and were able to confirm that we won the competition on that day. All the details are in the book which is available on our website   www.jockndoris.co.uk  where you can order a copy to be sent airmail.

I have also met Neal Armstrong (note the spelling of the first name) when I was attached to Hickam AFB for an electronic equipment course back in the late 1970's. that is Senior Master Sergeant Neal Armstrong. He was often teased about his name.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 01, 2014, 04:06:15 PM
Sounds like a bad fan-fiction.

Yes, emphasis on bad.  His other stories are in the ghost-visitation genre -- historical fiction.  Sticking to that would have been a good idea.  Here, however, he's muddied the genre with cloak-and-dagger.

I see from his posting history here that he has zero track record of producing evidence when asked, so I don't expect him to be forthcoming with the name of the golf-course employee who helped him.  Of course I can call them up -- their number is public.  But as today is a U.S. holiday popular with golfers, and as of this writing they will have just opened for the morning, I won't call them today.  But I fully expect them to say they haven't the faintest idea what this author is talking about.  And then I predict he'll either run away, or have some predictably lame excuse, such as protecting this or that, or maintaining the party line.

Nothing wrong with the historical fiction genre, as long as you put down that it's fiction.  There's a paragraph prefacing James Michener's Space that explains what he intends to be fictional and what he intends to be factual.  However, this poor author has claimed it to be fact, which is the worst thing you can do if you're a historical fiction writer.  There are enough people who care about the integrity of the historical record that they don't want your ten-quid fantasy mucking it all up.

But then when you go and pollute one genre with an incompatible one, you're just asking for it.  The "ghost of Neil Armstrong" bit is clearly fantastical and clearly plays into the kind of fiction this author likes to write.  But that alone could have worked.  People would know it was meant as fiction.  But when you combine it with allegations of fact such as a golf tournament and hoaxed missions, you've got one foot on the boat and the other still on the dock.  Not a very tenuous position.

The golf-tournament claim is patently absurd.  No one trying to perpetrate a multi-billion-dollar hoax is going to do something so obviously unwise as to appear conspicuously in public and leave paper records of it.  My guess is this author has cooked up a claim that seems just plausible enough to convince a few people to part with a few quid over it.  But he sure won't help us verify it.  And he knows none of his readers will.

If he's gonna stick to the claim that it's a true story, then the ghost-of-Armstrong bit goes right out.  You can't prove claims of fact by appealing to the supernatural.

But if the claim is that the Moon landings were faked, then that has a body of evidence associated with it that has nothing to do with whether Armstrong was playing golf in Hawaii on some given day.  That's a claim that can be defended without referring to Armstrong at all.

In another thread he bragged about having a couple thousand hits to his site.  (At least we know he's clocking hits as a result of his shilling.)  My site gets many tens of thousands of hits per month.  I can work a few SEO and keyword magic tricks to make sure my site comes up on a search for his books.  Imagine what his sales will look like when someone can click on my review and read that I contacted the golf course in question and discovered that they don't know what he's talking about.  Imagine when that likely outcome becomes a sentence in the Amazon reviews I publish.

So the evidence had better be forthcoming, and quickly.  I note that he's under moderation, which means he has only a very few posts to convince us here he's not a shill or a troll.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 01, 2014, 04:11:42 PM
I have also met Neal Armstrong (note the spelling of the first name) when I was attached to Hickam AFB for an electronic equipment course back in the late 1970's. that is Senior Master Sergeant Neal Armstrong. He was often teased about his name.

If only he hadn't upped the ante...

Quote
"In fact he played with all Three Men in Honolulu and won first prize at Navy Marine Golf Club - its in their visitors book" (emphasis added)

http://www.jockndoris.co.uk/haunted_by_neil_armstrong.php

I figured we might find some Neil Armstrong in the guest book from 1969, but odds on it being the astronaut are slim.  He's claiming the visitor's book at the golf course will show us not only Armstrong the astronaut's name, but also those of Aldrin and Collins.  What the log book is going to have to show in order to verify this author's claims is now highly improbable.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Zakalwe on September 01, 2014, 04:28:51 PM

Of course the book is based on fact.  As I state on the back of the book 
‘These stories are absolutely true-exactly as I recall them.’

Blimey.

And here I was thinking that Chartered Accountants were reputed to be some of the most boring people on the planet. Not only have you played golf with Neil Armstrong, but you have also dallied with Mary Queen of Scots, met Sir Walter Scott AND cured arthritis! All this from a "respected 57 year old Chartered Accountant who's word is never questioned" Well, it's being questioned here!

May I respectfully say that Sir is madder than a box of frogs and fruitier than a fruit cake.  ::) ::) ::)
 
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: gillianren on September 01, 2014, 05:08:56 PM
$16.50, one assumes plus shipping, for a glorified pamphlet?  Who would pay that?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Zakalwe on September 01, 2014, 05:13:23 PM
$16.50, one assumes plus shipping, for a glorified pamphlet?  Who would pay that?

Only those mad enough to believe that ghosts exist and that they seek out Chartered Accountants to converse with.

Though, judging by the reviews, at least 50% of those think that it's bunkum too....
http://www.amazon.co.uk/product-reviews/0953574814/ref=cm_cr_dp_hist_one?ie=UTF8&filterBy=addOneStar&showViewpoints=0

"Consistently throughout the book, you found it really hard to believe a word he was saying!"
No s**t, Sherlock....  ::)
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 01, 2014, 05:35:25 PM
Indeed, I wouldn't mind a chartered accountant who writes historical fiction or supernatural fiction in his spare time.  A chartered accountant who invoked his professional reputation to support claims of the supernatural as fact would definitely make me look elsewhere for a chartered accountant.

Even leaving aside supernatural claims, a chartered accountant who misrepresented or withheld important information behind public claims, or who challenged technical accomplishments without a suitable background, or any of the other similar shenanigans would not give me confidence that he could defend his business practices on my account in court or under investigation.

I very much doubt his word.  And unless he clarifies his claims and provides evidence, I will very publicly doubt his word.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Bob B. on September 01, 2014, 05:49:53 PM
I checked at the Navy Marine Golf Club near Pearl Harbor that I had played golf with Neil Armstrong on 21 July 1969.
All this from a "respected 57 year old Chartered Accountant who's word is never questioned"

So was Burns 12 years old when he had this alleged golf outing with Armstrong in 1969?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 01, 2014, 05:59:39 PM
The claim of being 57 years old refers not to the Armstrong book but to one of his other "I talk to ghosts" books, that one published in 1999.  I presume the age refers to the time of that writing.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: smartcooky on September 01, 2014, 06:09:26 PM
Another thing where I can call BS on Mr Burns is that golf course (if it is the one I am thinking of near Pearl/Hickam).

Firstly, its just a private course, operated by Navy Golf. It is not a "Golf Club" as such.

Secondly, I was there in 1979 (I looked it up in my service record; I was on an AN/APN510 Doppler GSDA Radar course where I learned the vagaries of the CDP1802 microprocessor). You had to be an active US serviceman to be allowed to play the course. Guests were not permitted. I wasn't allowed to play the course without making a special application because I wasn't a US serviceman. I'm not sure whether this is still true, but it certainly was then and I would expect it would have been in 1969.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 01, 2014, 06:13:09 PM
You had to be an active US serviceman to be allowed to play the course. Guests were not permitted.

The author Neil Burns is definitely not a U.S. serviceman.  Famously, Neil Armstrong was not an active U.S. serviceman either in 1969.  He was a civilian astronaut at the time.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Tedward on September 02, 2014, 04:35:13 AM
He was having a cup of tea around my house I tell you. All other claims are false. It was a cup of english breakfast tea with chocolate digestives. No one can prove me wrong cos I said so.

Edit. Or was it hobnobs?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Mag40 on September 02, 2014, 05:12:00 AM
He was having a cup of tea around my house I tell you. All other claims are false. It was a cup of english breakfast tea with chocolate digestives. No one can prove me wrong cos I said so.

Edit. Or was it hobnobs?

No way could it have been hobnobs, they weren't invented until 1985. If you aren't even sure what biscuits you ate, maybe you are mistaken about which astronaut it was?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Jockndoris on September 02, 2014, 05:59:21 AM
Of course the book is based on fact.

So you're prepared to prove that the ghost of Neil Armstrong visited its author.

Quote
‘These stories are absolutely true-exactly as I recall them.’

And your memory is infallible?  And you claim to talk to ghosts?
 
Quote
Just to make absolutely sure I flew 21 hours to Honolulu in November 2013. I checked at the Navy Marine Golf Club near Pearl Harbor that I had played golf with Neil Armstrong on 21 July 1969.  They gave me a great welcome and were able to confirm that we won the competition on that day.

Please list here the name of the person at the golf club to whom you spoke and who, according to you, confirmed that the astronaut Neil Armstrong played golf there with you on that date.  I will be verifying your story.

Quote
All the details are in the book which is available on our website   www.jockndoris.co.uk  where you can order a copy to be sent airmail.

I'm not paying for your book, but feel free to send me a complimentary review copy.

If you're going to shill your commercial products here, you had better pretend to give details when asked, and give them here.
I would be happy to send you a complimentary copy if you give me a suitable snailmail address
As before I will respond to all the points made given time - here are few replies
When I wrote my first book in 1999 I was 57 years old and so was 27 years old when I played with Neil Armstrong.
All points are covered in the book
The Navy Marine Club is a military club making it all the more plausible that the astronauts played there in 1969

Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Tedward on September 02, 2014, 06:28:53 AM
He was having a cup of tea around my house I tell you. All other claims are false. It was a cup of english breakfast tea with chocolate digestives. No one can prove me wrong cos I said so.

Edit. Or was it hobnobs?

No way could it have been hobnobs, they weren't invented until 1985. If you aren't even sure what biscuits you ate, maybe you are mistaken about which astronaut it was?

Nope. It is clear in my mind, I remember as if it were yesterday. It was Rich tea. Definitely Neil Armstrong, he had a traffolyte name tag and I had a photograph, looking for it now.


Off topic, anyone have a good book on photoshop and adding famous persons?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: ineluki on September 02, 2014, 07:37:18 AM
$16.50, one assumes plus shipping, for a glorified pamphlet?  Who would pay that?

turbonium, ove, flendanharvest, awe, heiwa...
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Jason Thompson on September 02, 2014, 09:14:23 AM
As before I will respond to all the points made given time

You've had time. Plenty of it.

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All points are covered in the book

And since you raised them here you discuss them here. You don't get to bring them up and then tell us we all have to buy your book to discuss the subject with you.

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The Navy Marine Club is a military club making it all the more plausible that the astronauts played there in 1969

Leaving aside the fact that Armstrong was not in the military at the time of his service with NASA, that does not make it more plausible that an astronaut whose name and face was all over the world's media as being in flight to the Moon on July 20th 1969 would be out and about casually playing golf in front of however many spectators, nor that none of these people actually said anything at the time or in the intervening decades about the obvious problem with reconciling his presence on the golf course and his appearance on TV as part of the Apollo 11 crew. If this event did happen, it would have been news then and there, not restricted to one self-published book decades later.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: RAF on September 02, 2014, 09:35:24 AM
The Navy Marine Club is a military club making it all the more plausible that the astronauts played there in 1969.

For military astronauts, BUT ARMSTRONG WAS A CIVILIAN.

Sorry to "shout", but this is a FACT you MUST acknowledge BEFORE we can proceed further with this discussion.

Do you understand?

Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: RAF on September 02, 2014, 09:43:54 AM
I would be happy to send you a complimentary copy if you give me a suitable snailmail address

If you had wrote it as a work of fiction, I would perhaps be interested.

Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 02, 2014, 10:30:44 AM
I would be happy to send you a complimentary copy if you give me a suitable snailmail address

In your private message box.

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As before I will respond to all the points made given time

If you have time to shill your paid products here for free, you have time to read the list of outstanding questions put to you over the course of the past day and answer them in turn in a single message, which should have been this one.

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All points are covered in the book

I asked specifically for the name of the person to whom you spoke at the Hawaii golf course.  I expect not to have to wait for the delivery of the book to discover that name.

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The Navy Marine Club is a military club making it all the more plausible that the astronauts played there in 1969

No.  Neil Armstrong was a civilian.  In fact it was one of Armstrong's most notable qualities, and likely why NASA chose him to command the first landing mission -- i.e., so that it would not look to the rest of the world like a military conquest.  In all your pretended conversations with Mr. Armstrong, it seems he didn't see fit to mention that very important, very well-known fact.  Or rather, you did very slipshod research in preparing to write your fiction.  You likely just assumed all the astronauts were military men.

Also, you have yet to explain how you -- a British subject -- was somehow able to play at a golf course that admits only active-duty United States military men without exception.  Again, very poor research on your part.  From someone like you who claims an impeccable reputation upon his word, these blatant falsehoods and evasions seem quite alarming.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: darren r on September 02, 2014, 01:12:29 PM
I'm puzzled as to how Neil Armstrong could have been playing golf that day anyway. Wasn't he visiting strip clubs in Las Vegas at the time? Either that or he was on his way to the Moon. It all gets so confusing. Who to believe, who to believe....
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Jockndoris on September 02, 2014, 02:06:33 PM
Of course the book is based on fact.

So you're prepared to prove that the ghost of Neil Armstrong visited its author.

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‘These stories are absolutely true-exactly as I recall them.’

And your memory is infallible?  And you claim to talk to ghosts?
 
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Just to make absolutely sure I flew 21 hours to Honolulu in November 2013. I checked at the Navy Marine Golf Club near Pearl Harbor that I had played golf with Neil Armstrong on 21 July 1969.  They gave me a great welcome and were able to confirm that we won the competition on that day.

Please list here the name of the person at the golf club to whom you spoke and who, according to you, confirmed that the astronaut Neil Armstrong played golf there with you on that date.  I will be verifying your story.

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All the details are in the book which is available on our website   www.jockndoris.co.uk  where you can order a copy to be sent airmail.

I'm not paying for your book, but feel free to send me a complimentary review copy.

If you're going to shill your commercial products here, you had better pretend to give details when asked, and give them here.
I would be happy to send you a complimentary copy if you give me a suitable snailmail address
As before I will respond to all the points made given time - here are few replies
When I wrote my first book in 1999 I was 57 years old and so was 27 years old when I played with Neil Armstrong.
All points are covered in the book
The Navy Marine Club is a military club making it all the more plausible that the astronauts played there in 1969


Thank you for sending us a snailmail address. We will get a complimentary copy of the Book Haunted by Neil Armstrong by Neil Burns in the post tomorrow morning first thing. I hope you enjoy reading it and look forward to your comments. Best wishes Jockndoris
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Jockndoris on September 02, 2014, 02:26:35 PM
The Navy Marine Club is a military club making it all the more plausible that the astronauts played there in 1969.

For military astronauts, BUT ARMSTRONG WAS A CIVILIAN.

Sorry to "shout", but this is a FACT you MUST acknowledge BEFORE we can proceed further with this discussion.

Do you understand?

Why do you think he was a civilian?   Neil Armstrong was a Naval Aviator with the rank of Commander and subject to military disciplines all his life.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: beedarko on September 02, 2014, 05:54:59 PM
$16.50, one assumes plus shipping, for a glorified pamphlet?  Who would pay that?

Well, he does admit to having a sense of humor.

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He has a great sense of humour which he says is just as well in todays topsy turvy world.

http://www.ukuva.co.uk/author.htm
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 02, 2014, 07:28:35 PM
Well, he does admit to having a sense of humor.

The chartered accountant tells people he has a sense of humor.  That's like Freddy Krueger telling people he's good with kids.

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"He has a great sense of humour which he says is just as well in todays topsy turvy world."

I tend to think that supposedly respectable professional men who take people's money in exchange for outrageous claims they won't prove are a big part of what makes it topsy turvy.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: carpediem on September 02, 2014, 07:57:10 PM
The Navy Marine Club is a military club making it all the more plausible that the astronauts played there in 1969.

For military astronauts, BUT ARMSTRONG WAS A CIVILIAN.

Sorry to "shout", but this is a FACT you MUST acknowledge BEFORE we can proceed further with this discussion.

Do you understand?
Why do you think he was a civilian?   Neil Armstrong was a Naval Aviator with the rank of Commander and subject to military disciplines all his life.


Armstrong left the Navy at age 22 on August 23, 1952, and became a Lieutenant, Junior Grade, in the U.S. Naval Reserve. He remained in the reserve for eight years, then resigned his commission on October 21, 1960 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_Armstrong)
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: raven on September 02, 2014, 08:16:03 PM
My grandfather was a chartered accountant, and he actually did have a good sense of humour.
One joke he was well known for was that the reason he became an accountant was because he 'liked figures', while gesturing the outline of a female form.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: frenat on September 02, 2014, 08:33:11 PM
The Navy Marine Club is a military club making it all the more plausible that the astronauts played there in 1969.

For military astronauts, BUT ARMSTRONG WAS A CIVILIAN.

Sorry to "shout", but this is a FACT you MUST acknowledge BEFORE we can proceed further with this discussion.

Do you understand?
Why do you think he was a civilian?   Neil Armstrong was a Naval Aviator with the rank of Commander and subject to military disciplines all his life.


Armstrong left the Navy at age 22 on August 23, 1952, and became a Lieutenant, Junior Grade, in the U.S. Naval Reserve. He remained in the reserve for eight years, then resigned his commission on October 21, 1960 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_Armstrong)

For those who are not aware, that is not enough time to qualify for retirement so he would have had to surrender his ID card when he resigned his commission.  Even if he still had it for some reason it would have been expired.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: RAF on September 02, 2014, 09:50:56 PM
Why do you think he was a civilian?   Neil Armstrong was a Naval Aviator with the rank of Commander and subject to military disciplines all his life.

So to answer my question, you do not understand that Armstrong was a civilian during his astronaut career.

Is this correct?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 02, 2014, 10:11:10 PM
Why do you think he was a civilian?   Neil Armstrong was a Naval Aviator with the rank of Commander and subject to military disciplines all his life.

No, that's sometimes how it works in the United Kingdom, but that's expressly not how it works in the United States.  Once an officer leaves the service -- as Armstrong did long before joining NASA -- he is no longer entitled to the privileges afforded active-duty servicemen.

It was a big deal that Armstrong flew the X-15 as a civilian.  It was a big deal that he came to NASA as a civilian already wearing astronaut wings.  It was a big deal that the commander of the first Apollo landing mission was not a military officer, but rather an aviator who had distinguished himself as a test pilot as a civilian.

For someone who claims to have spoken to the ghost of Neil Armstrong, you seem to have this concept of his career that would be arrived at by a British subject who only did a little bit of research and really did not delve into the details, and assumed he knew how military service worked in the U.S.  I hope you realize that I'm an internationally recognized historian of the Apollo project as well as a professional aerospace engineer.  I will expose you.

And you still need to explain how you got to golf at a course reserved for active-duty U.S. military personnel, that does not allow guests.  I'm a U.S. citizen and an erstwhile defense contractor, and even I don't get to golf there.  So please explain this.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 02, 2014, 10:13:19 PM
My grandfather was a chartered accountant, and he actually did have a good sense of humour.

I take back the stereotype then.  I'll repent by subjecting myself to all the Arthur Puty sketches.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: smartcooky on September 02, 2014, 10:31:52 PM
And you still need to explain how you got to golf at a course reserved for active-duty U.S. military personnel, that does not allow guests.  I'm a U.S. citizen and an erstwhile defense contractor, and even I don't get to golf there.  So please explain this.


...and just to confirm the accuracy of what we are saying about this golf course...

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/98915197/ApolloHoax/NMGC.png)

I know that these restrictions were strictly observed in 1979 when I was there, so I would expect that to be at least the case 10 years earlier.

I cannot speak for what actually happens now.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: BazBear on September 02, 2014, 11:36:40 PM
You should probably mention that you are its publishers. Anyway, I've read the synopsis and it's the ramblings of a fantasist.

When the publisher's synopsis contains the sentences, "However, when Neil Armstrong died in 2012, lots of memories started flooding back [to the author]," and "Read how the author met Neil Armstrong's ghost several times and how he recalled with complete freedom the secrets behind the greatest military hoax of all times," you know you're about to be swindled.

Yes, since you're not apparently making your book generally available, Jockndoris, please fill us in on whether the it's intended to be factual.
Of course the book is based on fact.  As I state on the back of the book 
‘These stories are absolutely true-exactly as I recall them.’
Just to make absolutely sure I flew 21 hours to Honolulu in November 2013.
I checked at the Navy Marine Golf Club near Pearl Harbor that I had played golf with Neil Armstrong on 21 July 1969.  They gave me a great welcome and were able to confirm that we won the competition on that day. All the details are in the book which is available on our website   www.jockndoris.co.uk  where you can order a copy to be sent airmail.
You either have a bad memory.... or you're a liar. I'm leaning towards the later just a weeeeeee bit.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: BazBear on September 02, 2014, 11:39:35 PM
You should probably mention that you are its publishers. Anyway, I've read the synopsis and it's the ramblings of a fantasist.

When the publisher's synopsis contains the sentences, "However, when Neil Armstrong died in 2012, lots of memories started flooding back [to the author]," and "Read how the author met Neil Armstrong's ghost several times and how he recalled with complete freedom the secrets behind the greatest military hoax of all times," you know you're about to be swindled.

Yes, since you're not apparently making your book generally available, Jockndoris, please fill us in on whether the it's intended to be factual.
Of course the book is based on fact.  As I state on the back of the book 
‘These stories are absolutely true-exactly as I recall them.’
Just to make absolutely sure I flew 21 hours to Honolulu in November 2013.
I checked at the Navy Marine Golf Club near Pearl Harbor that I had played golf with Neil Armstrong on 21 July 1969.  They gave me a great welcome and were able to confirm that we won the competition on that day. All the details are in the book which is available on our website   www.jockndoris.co.uk  where you can order a copy to be sent airmail.
This has to be a Poe, right????????
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: LunarOrbit on September 02, 2014, 11:55:52 PM
Jockndoris,

If your book was being promoted as a work of fiction I'd have no problem with it. Everyone should have a hobby, and I certainly wouldn't discourage you from writing if you enjoy it. But come on! You don't really expect us to believe this is a true story, do you? Promoting this story as a fact... well, I do have a problem with that.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Noldi400 on September 03, 2014, 09:34:58 AM
For someone who claims to have spoken to the ghost of Neil Armstrong, you seem to have this concept of his career that would be arrived at by a British subject who only did a little bit of research and really did not delve into the details, and assumed he knew how military service worked in the U.S.  I hope you realize that I'm an internationally recognized historian of the Apollo project as well as a professional aerospace engineer.  I will expose you.

I personally think that if he met the ghost of an Apollo astronaut, it was Pete Conrad in disguise - that sounds like exactly the line of BS Pete would lay on someone.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Jockndoris on September 03, 2014, 09:51:39 AM
And you still need to explain how you got to golf at a course reserved for active-duty U.S. military personnel, that does not allow guests.  I'm a U.S. citizen and an erstwhile defense contractor, and even I don't get to golf there.  So please explain this.
I have been twice to the Navy Marine Golf Club which is well known for its policy of only allowing people in if they are “military”.  I was told that each time I phoned the club to see if I would be welcome there.  It is a somewhat swish club way above the norm with a good course which had not changed much in 40 years, except the pine trees round the last green were somewhat taller as they were now 100 feet or more in height.

The first time I went there was in 1969 and  I was the invited guest of three “military” men who were well known members of the club . They  particularly wanted me to play with them as their partner because they had found out that I played off a low handicap. They had to sign me into a visitors book before I would be allowed to play.  In the event the four of us won the competition.

The second time was when I returned in November 2013.  I was shown round by David Chin the club professional who was most interested in my story of playing there 40 odd years ago. He showed me the history of the club and there are photograph in the book of both David Chin and I and of the History of the club which is set out.  All you have to do to see those, is to order the book or ask me nicely to send you a copy the same way I have sent one to JayUtah.
  Jockndoris


...and just to confirm the accuracy of what we are saying about this golf course...

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/98915197/ApolloHoax/NMGC.png)

I know that these restrictions were strictly observed in 1979 when I was there, so I would expect that to be at least the case 10 years earlier.

I cannot speak for what actually happens now.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Jockndoris on September 03, 2014, 10:16:36 AM
Why do you think he was a civilian?   Neil Armstrong was a Naval Aviator with the rank of Commander and subject to military disciplines all his life.

No, that's sometimes how it works in the United Kingdom, but that's expressly not how it works in the United States.  Once an officer leaves the service -- as Armstrong did long before joining NASA -- he is no longer entitled to the privileges afforded active-duty servicemen.

It was a big deal that Armstrong flew the X-15 as a civilian.  It was a big deal that he came to NASA as a civilian already wearing astronaut wings.  It was a big deal that the commander of the first Apollo landing mission was not a military officer, but rather an aviator who had distinguished himself as a test pilot as a civilian.

For someone who claims to have spoken to the ghost of Neil Armstrong, you seem to have this concept of his career that would be arrived at by a British subject who only did a little bit of research and really did not delve into the details, and assumed he knew how military service worked in the U.S.  I hope you realize that I'm an internationally recognized historian of the Apollo project as well as a professional aerospace engineer.  I will expose you.

And you still need to explain how you got to golf at a course reserved for active-duty U.S. military personnel, that does not allow guests.  I'm a U.S. citizen and an erstwhile defense contractor, and even I don't get to golf there.  So please explain this.
I have been twice to the Navy Marine Golf Club which is well known for its policy of only allowing people in if they are “military”.  I was told that each time I phoned the club to see if I would be welcome there.  It is a somewhat swish club way above the norm with a good course which had not changed much in 40 years, except the pine trees round the last green were somewhat taller as they were now 100 feet or more in height.

The first time I went there was in 1969 and  I was the invited guest of three “military” men who were well known members of the club . They  particularly wanted me to play with them as their partner because they had found out that I played off a low handicap. They had to sign me into a visitors book before I would be allowed to play.  In the event the four of us won the competition.

The second time was when I returned in November 2013.  I was shown round by David Chin the club professional who was most interested in my story of playing there 40 odd years ago. He showed me the history of the club and there are photograph in the book of both David Chin and I and of the History of the club which is set out.  All you have to do to see those, is to order the book or ask me nicely to send you a copy the same way I have sent one to JayUtah.
I hope this explains to you both that I was a honoured guest at the club  Jockndoris
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: twik on September 03, 2014, 10:38:39 AM
Now, we mustn't be too harsh.

I, for one, would be fascinated to hear how the author, a British civilian, got invited to an American military-only golf course. What special requirements did you have to meet, what hoops did you have to go through?

I'd be less fascinated in the details of a conspiracy where the participants were running around in public during the few days it was essential that they not be seen on Earth. This is the definition of Idiot Plot.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Echnaton on September 03, 2014, 12:02:57 PM
I can easily believe that if any astronaut showed up at that golf course on his own or as a guest of an active military member, some officer or another would have granted an exception with any further guests in the party.   Such was the star power of astronauts at the time.  But that is all speculation. 

However the actual event is potentially a matter of record, and until the claimant provides as evidence something other that his fanciful, ghost communing, imagination there is no reason to believe it happened. Especially since Armstrong was known to be elsewhere.  Much less the matter of the very recognizable Armstrong not being where the whole world thought he was, and no one making mention of it.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: twik on September 03, 2014, 12:54:10 PM
I can easily believe that if any astronaut showed up at that golf course on his own or as a guest of an active military member, some officer or another would have granted an exception with any further guests in the party.   Such was the star power of astronauts at the time.  But that is all speculation. 

Oh, they might have gotten in. But it would not have been by showing up and saying, "Hi, I'm with an astronaut". I once had to get onto a U.S. military base, despite being a Canadian citizen. It's doable, but there was a lot to it. I don't think that the U.S. military was so star struck that anyone accompanying Armstong wouldn't have had to be vetted carefully, and get a lot of people signing off. I'd like to hear Jock explain just what paperwork it took.

And this brings up the question, just how quickly would Armstrong's star power have faded in their eyes if he were golfing when he was supposed to be going to the Moon?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 03, 2014, 01:32:44 PM
I would accept Armstrong showing up to the golf course and someone making an exception for him, given the star power.  However, the problem is still a very public appearance and an alleged written record while he was supposed to be on the Moon.  Star power works both ways.  Armstrong won't get in incognito, and he can't escape widespread publicity for being somewhere other than where he claimed.  "Moon-Bound Armstrong Seen at Hawaii Golf Course" would be a huge headline.

But I can't accept that a mid-20s British accountant is going to get into a U.S. military-only golf course.  I need lots and lots and lots of verifiable proof in order to accept that.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: twik on September 03, 2014, 02:12:31 PM
That's why I'd like Jock to explain exactly how it was done. It would be intriguing, I think, to compare it to the experiences of others who have had to get approval from the military for various purposes.

But in any case, as others have pointed out, it's totally ridiculous that, at the time when he should have been on the Moon, Armstrong was casually going out for golf games with visiting Brits, signing in under his own name. At least most conspiracy theorists credit the hypothetical conspirators with some intelligence. But "keep the fake astronauts holed up somewhere no one will see them" seems to be a pretty obvious point of any successful conspiracy.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: carpediem on September 03, 2014, 02:41:08 PM
But I can't accept that a mid-20s British accountant is going to get into a U.S. military-only golf course.  I need lots and lots and lots of verifiable proof in order to accept that.

I'm guessing the 'three military men' who invited him to play turn out to be Armstrong, Aldrin and Collins just to double down on the stupid.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Echnaton on September 03, 2014, 02:43:55 PM
At least most conspiracy theorists credit the hypothetical conspirators with some intelligence.

But Jockndoris communes with ghosts, so the extent of his reliance on the imagination, as opposed to reality, to support his notions is pretty open ended.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 03, 2014, 03:52:43 PM
I'm guessing the 'three military men' who invited him to play turn out to be Armstrong, Aldrin and Collins just to double down on the stupid.

"Hey, Buzz and Mike, I know we're supposed to be on the Moon right now, but let's go find some random Englishman to play golf with and talk our way into a private golf course where everyone will immediately recognize us.  Oh, be sure to sign your real name in the guest book."
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: smartcooky on September 03, 2014, 03:55:57 PM
"Hey, Buzz and Mike, I know we're supposed to be on the Moon right now, but let's go find some random Englishman to play golf with and talk our way into a private golf course where everyone will immediately recognize us.  Oh, be sure to sign your real name in the guest book."

Yep. Some HB assertions are so totally laden with stupid that they don't even merit the time to discuss them, so instead we use them for entertainment, and take the piss! 
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: skeptic_UK on September 03, 2014, 06:07:19 PM
Hey sorry for not replying for a while. I was kind of scared to be frank haha.
 
Some great posts and some not so great. Why is there so much anger around?!

Anyway. I've definitely loved reading some of the links and have ordered some books. For me, it doesn't really matter if Jocks book is fact or fiction, just that it covers a topic I love to read about, so I've ordered a copy from his website. I hope it is good, if anything it was fun watching people get so worked up about it!

I'll gladly give a mini review once I've got it and had chance to read it, might be a while though. Thanks guys.

Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: RAF on September 03, 2014, 06:54:41 PM
Why is there so much anger around?!

Why are you not angry that people would lie about the Apollo Moon missions?

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... it doesn't really matter if Jocks book is fact or fiction, just that it covers a topic I love to read about...

So you don't care if it's lies or not?

Mighty "forgiving" of ya...
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Allan F on September 03, 2014, 07:25:23 PM
Why is there so much anger around?!


People tend to be less civil when somebody starts claiming strange things on their favourite subject. Especialy when they cannot support it with factual information - and are openly telling big fat lies. Most people here have a foundation in science and engineering - knowledgebased people - which does not mesh well with ghosts.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Bob B. on September 03, 2014, 07:33:51 PM
I've definitely loved reading some of the links and have ordered some books.

If I may ask, what web sites have you read and what books have you ordered?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: smartcooky on September 03, 2014, 08:05:56 PM
... if anything it was fun watching people get so worked up about it!

Getting worked up? No

Having a few laughs at the level of stupid? Definitely!

A sure sign that users here are becoming amused by the stupid is that we start making MPFC references.


Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 03, 2014, 09:24:53 PM
Why is there so much anger around?!

I'm not sure what you're interpreting as anger.  Most of us are accustomed to the evasive, lackluster maneuvers some conspiracy theorists take when their claims are questions.  We've discovered through experience that a pointed, no-nonsense approach to the debate is most effective in dealing with that sort of bluster.  Don't mistake it for rudeness or emotion.

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For me, it doesn't really matter if Jocks book is fact or fiction...

It does to me.  I like my history to be true, not made up.  If the blurbs are to believed, the book claims Armstrong's ghost revealed to the author that the Moon landings were a "military hoax."  If that is true, then the author is calling nearly half a million intelligent, skilled people liars.  And charging people money to read about him doing it.  Exploring a fictional "alternate history" narrative is often very entertaining.  Accusing people of committing fraud on a wide scale and attesting to it as fact -- on no better evidence (at this point) than some claim of supernatural visitation -- is an entirely different thing altogether.  Do you think there should be no consequences for that behavior?

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...it was fun watching people get so worked up about it!

The workup derives not from the material itself, but from his claim that it is factual despite several glaring reasons why it isn't likely to be true.  As several have said, if he would honestly label his writing as fiction he would not provoke criticism.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 03, 2014, 10:08:42 PM
Having a few laughs at the level of stupid? Definitely!

Very much so.  On the one hand I'm committed to maintaining the integrity of the historical record that pertains to my profession.  On the other hand, it's entirely amusing to watch a grown man from a respectable walk of life behave as if he's barking mad.

Quote
A sure sign that users here are becoming amused by the stupid is that we start making MPFC references.

"Vocational guidance counselor .... vocational guidance counselor ... "
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: onebigmonkey on September 04, 2014, 12:14:22 AM
For me it's not so much the spinning of a yarn by Mr Burns that is annoying - many great works of fiction have a nail of history on which to hand their thread.

What's annoying is the get out clause.

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All these stories are true exactly as he recalls them.

That phrase is a double edged one. It can be interpreted as meaning either "every word I say is true", or as "I believe every word i say", and it's a very convenient line to use if it turns out that you believed incorrectly. This strikes me as a very devious way of extracting money from people.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 04, 2014, 12:17:11 AM
This strikes me as a very devious way of extracting money from people.

...while avoiding legal liability.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: gillianren on September 04, 2014, 12:31:13 AM
And frankly, if the examples we have here are indicative of his writing skills, his pamphlet is a waste of money on several levels unless he has a damn fine copy editor.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: beedarko on September 04, 2014, 12:34:19 AM
And frankly, if the examples we have here are indicative of his writing skills, his pamphlet is a waste of money on several levels unless he has a damn fine copy editor.

Shouldn't it be "damned fine"?

Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Tedward on September 04, 2014, 02:11:42 AM
Hey sorry for not replying for a while. I was kind of scared to be frank haha.
 
Some great posts and some not so great. Why is there so much anger around?!

Anyway. I've definitely loved reading some of the links and have ordered some books. For me, it doesn't really matter if Jocks book is fact or fiction, just that it covers a topic I love to read about, so I've ordered a copy from his website. I hope it is good, if anything it was fun watching people get so worked up about it!

I'll gladly give a mini review once I've got it and had chance to read it, might be a while though. Thanks guys.

Are you going to read any proper material on the subject or have you restricted yourself to the other stuff? I think this is important.

There are a few good reads on the NASA web site. They are free, and that have actual real facts in them you can check up, not made up junk.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Kiwi on September 04, 2014, 04:28:39 AM
For me, it doesn't really matter if Jocks book is fact or fiction...

It does to me.  I like my history to be true, not made up.  If the blurbs are to believed, the book claims Armstrong's ghost revealed to the author that the Moon landings were a "military hoax."  If that is true, then the author is calling nearly half a million intelligent, skilled people liars.  And charging people money to read about him doing it.  Exploring a fictional "alternate history" narrative is often very entertaining.  Accusing people of committing fraud on a wide scale and attesting to it as fact -- on no better evidence (at this point) than some claim of supernatural visitation -- is an entirely different thing altogether.  Do you think there should be no consequences for that behavior?

I came across the following quote for the first time yesterday, in my local newspaper, and particularly liked how, to me, it applies to Apollo. Perhaps it also applies to Jockndoris's book.


Quote
Any doctrine that will not bear investigation is not a fit tenant for the mind of an honest man.
Robert G Ingersoll, American lawyer and politician (1833-1899)


Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: ineluki on September 04, 2014, 07:51:09 AM
Why is there so much anger around?!

If you are not bothered by being told really stupid bold lies and thought for a stupid fool who swallows even completely retarded scenarios, then you won't understand...
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: gillianren on September 04, 2014, 11:24:08 AM
And frankly, if the examples we have here are indicative of his writing skills, his pamphlet is a waste of money on several levels unless he has a damn fine copy editor.

Shouldn't it be "damned fine"?



It's an idiom; it can go either way.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: twik on September 04, 2014, 11:44:30 AM
Why is there so much anger around?!


This is a strangely common complaint among conspiracists. I think it really translates to "Why are you so vehemently denying that things are the way I wish to believe they are? Why can't you just let me believe what I want, and persuade the rest of the world that this is true, without getting any of that nasty old reality and evidence in my way?"

Even if the moon hoax idea didn't smear real, live people as liars and cheats, denying the realities of the world can lead to serious consequences. People who swallow the idea that the aerospace community is a bunch of lying scoundrels will often, say, have less problem swallowing the next idea, that the medical community promotes vaccines even if they are harmful, because hey, science and industry are evil, and that's what they do.

If you're going to stand up and say, "I believe stars are living phosphorescent creatures who swim in a dark sea over our heads," don't complain about "anger" when people try to explain to you how that just can't be true.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: raven on September 04, 2014, 02:24:36 PM
Let's say someone, without evidence and even making up stuff, said the accomplishments of you and/or your friends and relations were out right lies, that you had defrauded the public of vast amounts of money, and even committed murder to conceal your actions. All this without a shred of evidence worthy of the name.
Worse, they are profiting from this  by selling media of these preposterous claims
Wouldn't you be a little peeved at this miscarriage of justice?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: sts60 on September 04, 2014, 02:26:58 PM
I'm not angry.  I admit to being baffled that Jockndoris would expect that such a frankly cockamamie claim merits any attention whatsoever, other than perhaps a roll of the eyes.   Whether or not the golf course accepts civilian guests under any circumstances is utterly beside the point.  Neil Armstrong was observed to be on the Moon that day.  The idea that one of the most famous men in human history would be casually and openly playing golf with some random civilian on a military course when he was supposed to be on another planetary body is just... stupid.   It doesn't need debunking; it's not even interesting as a funny story. 

Edited to add: I have worked with Apollo engineers.  If I was going to get offended on their behalf by someone libeling their efforts, such as Jockndoris is attempting to do, it would take something more than such silly crackpottery.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Echnaton on September 04, 2014, 07:12:50 PM
I get the feeling that Jockndoris is just one of these guys that likes to pull peoples legs and does his coup counting by selling the pamphlets he calles books.  Simply stirring the pot seems to be a second choice option since it at least keeps him from complete obscurity as a noaccount accountant. Assuming that claim is true. I mean really, communing with ghosts?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Zakalwe on September 05, 2014, 02:45:16 AM
I get the feeling that Jockndoris is just one of these guys that likes to pull peoples legs and does his coup counting by selling the pamphlets he calles books.  Simply stirring the pot seems to be a second choice option since it at least keeps him from complete obscurity as a noaccount accountant. Assuming that claim is true. I mean really, communing with ghosts?

And there's the rub. Forget about arguing about if a civvie could get into a golf club or not. This specimen claims to speak to ghosts and can cure arthritis with gooseberry leaves. That puts him firmly in the "point at and laugh" club. He's either a badge-carrying member of the Woo-Woo brigade or a charlatan intent on milking as much money from the gullible as he can. The accountant version of Derek Acorah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derek_Acorah), if you will


Some great posts and some not so great. Why is there so much anger around?!
I don't see any anger, though I freely acknowledge that a forum is a difficult place to display and interpret the emotions of the poster. You've got to remember that this place isn't the be-all and end-all of the contributors. Most of the heavy-weights in here are busy with their careers, and to be frank, answering most of the bunkum that the typical hoaxie puts up will probably take seconds. In contrast, your typical hoaxie will have spent hours absorbing all sorts of claptrap and will become emotionally invested in their belief-system. Mainly, IMHO, because the majority of them have bugger all else to do. These are the ones that tend to get angry quite quickly and normally resort to throwing their own body-waste about quite quickly.
You only have to look at the Awe130 thread to see how quickly Adrian van Wereeld Awe130 descended into panic and spittle-flecked fury.

Anyhoo, you might have over-looked this one, but I wonder of you'd like to answer this question?

do believe it was faked myself.
Why?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Jockndoris on September 13, 2014, 12:43:06 PM
Of course the book is based on fact.

So you're prepared to prove that the ghost of Neil Armstrong visited its author.

Quote
‘These stories are absolutely true-exactly as I recall them.’

And your memory is infallible?  And you claim to talk to ghosts?
 
Quote
Just to make absolutely sure I flew 21 hours to Honolulu in November 2013. I checked at the Navy Marine Golf Club near Pearl Harbor that I had played golf with Neil Armstrong on 21 July 1969.  They gave me a great welcome and were able to confirm that we won the competition on that day.

Please list here the name of the person at the golf club to whom you spoke and who, according to you, confirmed that the astronaut Neil Armstrong played golf there with you on that date.  I will be verifying your story.

Quote
All the details are in the book which is available on our website   www.jockndoris.co.uk  where you can order a copy to be sent airmail.

I'm not paying for your book, but feel free to send me a complimentary review copy.

If you're going to shill your commercial products here, you had better pretend to give details when asked, and give them here.
I would be happy to send you a complimentary copy if you give me a suitable snailmail address
As before I will respond to all the points made given time - here are few replies
When I wrote my first book in 1999 I was 57 years old and so was 27 years old when I played with Neil Armstrong.
All points are covered in the book
The Navy Marine Club is a military club making it all the more plausible that the astronauts played there in 1969


Thank you for sending us a snailmail address. We will get a complimentary copy of the Book Haunted by Neil Armstrong by Neil Burns in the post tomorrow morning first thing. I hope you enjoy reading it and look forward to your comments. Best wishes Jockndoris


JayUtah
I trust you have now received the complimentary copy of Haunted by Neil Armstrong  which we sent to you and have had enough time to read it. We all look forward to hearing what you thought of it. 
Jockndoris

Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Echnaton on September 13, 2014, 01:59:22 PM
With bated breath
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: beedarko on September 13, 2014, 05:18:09 PM
JayUtah
I trust you have now received the complimentary copy of Haunted by Neil Armstrong  which we sent to you and have had enough time to read it.

Have you factored in the extra time required for laugh breaks?

Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: sts60 on September 13, 2014, 06:18:26 PM
Jockndoris, to reiterate my earlier post, I still don't understand his you can expect that such a frankly cockamamie claim merits any attention whatsoever, other than perhaps a roll of the eyes.    Neil Armstrong was observed to be on the Moon that day.  The idea that one of the most famous men in human history would be casually and openly playing golf with some random civilian on a military course when he was supposed to be on another planetary body is just... stupid.   Do you actually expect anyone with any familiarity with the Apollo program to take this seriously?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 13, 2014, 09:53:17 PM
I trust you have now received the complimentary copy...

No, not yet received.

Independent of whether it appears in the book, I repeat that I require the name of the person to whom you spoke at the golf course, who allegedly confirmed to you that you played golf with Neil Armstrong the astronaut, on the day he was supposedly on the Moon.

Please supply that name at your earliest convenience.  I shall be calling the golf course to confirm it.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Zakalwe on September 14, 2014, 05:21:53 AM

I trust you have now received the complimentary copy of Haunted by Neil Armstrong  which we sent to you and have had enough time to read it. We all look forward to hearing what you thought of it. 
Jockndoris


Is it printed on nice soft three-ply tissue paper?  ::)
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: onebigmonkey on September 14, 2014, 06:10:40 AM

Please supply that name at your earliest convenience.  I shall be calling the golf course to confirm it.

A photo of the visitor's book would also be good.

On another note, I have recently received some very nice books on Apollo in the form of the Apollo 15 PSR and Apollo 10 Photography Analysis report. They are much more fun than any work of fiction.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Jockndoris on September 14, 2014, 07:05:18 AM
I trust you have now received the complimentary copy...

No, not yet received.

The Complimentary Copy was posted on September 4th Airmail with a Customs Note attached – it should be there very soon.  If any of the other members want their complimentary copy please send me a snailmail address – I want you all to read it !!  Jockndoris

Independent of whether it appears in the book, I repeat that I require the name of the person to whom you spoke at the golf course, who allegedly confirmed to you that you played golf with Neil Armstrong the astronaut, on the day he was supposedly on the Moon.

Please supply that name at your earliest convenience.  I shall be calling the golf course to confirm it.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Jockndoris on September 14, 2014, 07:06:28 AM
With bated breath
  The Complimentary Copy was posted on September 4th Airmail with a Customs Note attached – it should be there very soon.  If any of the other members want their complimentary copy please send me a snailmail address – I want you all to read it !!  Jockndoris
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Jockndoris on September 14, 2014, 07:11:01 AM

I trust you have now received the complimentary copy of Haunted by Neil Armstrong  which we sent to you and have had enough time to read it. We all look forward to hearing what you thought of it. 
Jockndoris


Is it printed on nice soft three-ply tissue paper?  ::) 

Much nicer to have a proper copy with color photos of the Navy Marine club and their club professional!!  The Complimentary Copy was posted to JayUtah on September 4th Airmail with a Customs Note attached – it should be there by now  please send me your  snailmail address – I want you all to read it !!  Jockndoris
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Nowhere Man on September 14, 2014, 09:15:30 AM
Please learn how to use the quote tags correctly.  Your response should be after the closing [/quote].

Fred
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Zakalwe on September 14, 2014, 10:30:30 AM
Much nicer to have a proper copy with color photos of the Navy Marine club and their club professional!!  The Complimentary Copy was posted to JayUtah on September 4th Airmail with a Customs Note attached – it should be there by now  please send me your  snailmail address – I want you all to read it !!  Jockndoris[/b]


Thanks for the kind offer to send me your pamphlet, but on this occasion I will decline your offer. I really don't have the time or inclination to spend reading kook books about communing with ghosts.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: gillianren on September 14, 2014, 11:29:46 AM
Thanks for the kind offer to send me your pamphlet, but on this occasion I will decline your offer. I really don't have the time or inclination to spend reading kook books about communing with ghosts.

Quite.  I, for one, am in the middle of doing real research (about a different topic, admittedly) right now.  I want the book I publish to be worth reading, you see.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Echnaton on September 14, 2014, 03:22:52 PM
Thanks for the kind offer to send me your pamphlet, but on this occasion I will decline your offer. I really don't have the time or inclination to spend reading kook books about communing with ghosts.

Agreed.  The absolute impossibility of this being a factual account make it of no interest to me. 
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 14, 2014, 11:50:53 PM
The Complimentary Copy...

You posted three times shilling your book.  Yet you have not provided me the key information I asked for.  Please give the name of the person to whom you spoke at the golf course.  Are you paying attention?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: ineluki on September 15, 2014, 09:00:31 AM
I still don't understand his you can expect that such a frankly cockamamie claim merits any attention whatsoever, other than perhaps a roll of the eyes. 

As we all probably know by now, if the supposed conspirators can choose between
- a way to handle things that's just incredible stupid within the scenario
- a way to handle things, that may still not work but at least on the surface makes sense
they will always take the former.



Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Jockndoris on September 15, 2014, 11:35:41 AM
Thanks for the kind offer to send me your pamphlet, but on this occasion I will decline your offer. I really don't have the time or inclination to spend reading kook books about communing with ghosts.

Agreed.  The absolute impossibility of this being a factual account make it of no interest to me.


You will never know what you are missing until you read the book. Jockndoris
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Jockndoris on September 15, 2014, 11:37:30 AM
Thanks for the kind offer to send me your pamphlet, but on this occasion I will decline your offer. I really don't have the time or inclination to spend reading kook books about communing with ghosts.

Agreed.  The absolute impossibility of this being a factual account make it of no interest to me.
You will never know what you are missing until you read the book. Jockndoris
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Jockndoris on September 15, 2014, 11:39:44 AM
The Complimentary Copy...

You posted three times shilling your book.  Yet you have not provided me the key information I asked for.  Please give the name of the person to whom you spoke at the golf course.  Are you paying attention?
The person you should phone is David Chin the Club Professional at Navy Marine Golf Club.  Phone number (808) 471-0142.  His picture appears with me on page 43 of the book and someone else has very kindly added details about the club to my post 211.  Make sure you claim to be “military” otherwise he probably won’t speak to you! Jockndoris
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 15, 2014, 11:48:08 AM
The person you should phone is David Chin the Club Professional at Navy Marine Golf Club.  Phone number (808) 471-0142.

Thank you.  I will phone him as soon as it is daytime in Hawaii.  Before I speak with him, please verify that this is the person you claim confirmed to you that you had played golf with the astronaut Neil Armstrong on the day he was supposed to be on the Moon.  I am not interested in the famous golfers with whom you have played.  I am interested only in a confirmation of the central claim of your book.

Quote
Make sure you claim to be “military” otherwise he probably won’t speak to you!

I have no intention of misrepresenting my identity or my purpose in calling.  Are you inventing reasons why this person will not speak with me or confirm the claims you allege about him?  Further, since you brought it up, we still require you to explain exactly how you -- as a non-military British subject -- to play golf at a U.S. military golf course.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: gillianren on September 15, 2014, 11:48:23 AM
You will never know what you are missing until you read the book.

Yes, I do.  I am missing lies.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 15, 2014, 12:13:52 PM
I've confirmed with my business agent that the book has not yet arrived.

I simply want to see what actual allegations of fact are presented in the book.  If the book is being presented as fact, I have the ability to determine what those allegations are and whether the book sufficiently supports them.  I don't consider claims of ghostly visitations to be either fact or substantiation of allegations of fact.  So those parts will receive little if any attention from me.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Echnaton on September 15, 2014, 12:14:41 PM
Thanks for the kind offer to send me your pamphlet, but on this occasion I will decline your offer. I really don't have the time or inclination to spend reading kook books about communing with ghosts.

Agreed.  The absolute impossibility of this being a factual account make it of no interest to me.


You will never know what you are missing until you read the book. Jockndoris


But I will have retained the time I would have otherwise spent reading it, for some useful purpose. That is surely enough compensation for the absence of knowledge about communing with Armstrong's ghost. 
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Echnaton on September 15, 2014, 12:20:24 PM
  Make sure you claim to be “military” otherwise he probably won’t speak to you! Jockndoris

Do you make a habit of suggesting that people lie to get what they want?  Is this suggestion based on your own way of acting?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 15, 2014, 01:15:26 PM
Do you make a habit of suggesting that people lie to get what they want?  Is this suggestion based on your own way of acting?

Keep in mind you're talking to a guy who has written and is selling a book claiming the ghost of Neil Armstrong came to him and confirmed that he was playing golf with him in Hawaii when he was supposed to be on the Moon.  Would an author making absurd claims of that magnitude have much compunction about lying about his identity over the telephone, or suggesting that others do likewise?

Mr. Chin is a PGA golfer.  That he is the professional-in-residence at a military golf course should not make him any less accessible to me than any other professional golfer.

It's a couple hours yet before the sun rises in Hawaii, so I have some time to think how best to parse our author's cryptic and disturbing statement.  Plus, I won't call until I confirm that the author claims Chin is who verified Neil Armstrong's previous identity.  The author didn't say, so I'm not going to just call up some random guy and ask about something that wasn't even alleged.

A picture of the author with Mr. Chin means nothing unless the picture itself contains detail that verifies something besides the fact that the author met Mr. Chin and had his picture taken with him.  I have dozens of pictures of me with famous people.  Those pictures don't prove any and all claims I might make about those famous people.  The contact information for Mr. Chin is easily Googled.  So it's pretty easy to parlay a picture posed with a celebrity and some quick Googling into the notion that someone could verify the author's story, but for some reason won't.

The author's puzzling suggestion that Mr. Chin might not want to talk to me seems more intended to prime me for the likelihood that Mr. Chin, as a nationally-ranked golfer and sports personality, might not want to bother talking to some researcher in Utah about a story that has practically nothing to do with golf, and involves simply one of many amateur golfers he likely encounters during the course of his profession.  Or priming for me for another likelihood that if I do get hold of him, he'll likely (correctly) state that he has no recollection of anything the author claims; our author will want to write that off as some kind of secret-keeping or stonewalling.

See, he has to cover all the bases.  He has to have a contingency for all possible outcomes of my conversations with David Chin, that somehow feed into his conspiracy theory.  The rub is that any information that would be privileged only for military ears is not going to be given to me simply by my claiming to be "military."  That's why -- once again -- this author's story continues to sound more like a bad mystery novella and less like reality.  At every turn he consistently gives us a comical caricature of how he thinks the U.S. military operates.  He wrongly likens it to the British military, he wrongly suggests he as a non-American civilian played at a military-only golf course, and now he's suggesting that I can cut through anticipated red tape on the phone simply by asserting verbally that I'm a U.S. serviceman.  Or conversely he's suggesting that unless I'm in the military I won't get access to the confirmation of the "secret" information ... that he gives out freely to anyone who asks.

But no, I have no intention of lying to get the information I need to test this author's conclusions.  And frankly the suggestion that I do so is dishonest, distasteful, and hopefully not an indication of how United Kingdom chartered accountants are wont to conduct business.  If Mr. Chin will speak only to military officers about this author's claims, I have a plethora of U.S. Navy officers I can ask to intermediate that discussion.

At present I still require from this author a clear statement of exactly what he expects Mr. Chin to confirm on his behalf.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 15, 2014, 05:06:23 PM
I've confirmed with my business agent that the book has not yet arrived.

My agent confirms it came with today's post.  I'll pick it up this evening.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Echnaton on September 15, 2014, 05:50:17 PM
Do you make a habit of suggesting that people lie to get what they want?  Is this suggestion based on your own way of acting?

Keep in mind you're talking to a guy who has written and is selling a book claiming the ghost of Neil Armstrong came to him and confirmed that he was playing golf with him in Hawaii when he was supposed to be on the Moon.  Would an author making absurd claims of that magnitude have much compunction about lying about his identity over the telephone, or suggesting that others do likewise?

Yes it was merely rhetorical, a question to point out the continued dishonesty.  One would of course never not expect honesty from a person who claims to commune with ghosts much less one who makes such a suggestion. 
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: dwight on September 15, 2014, 06:55:46 PM
And who dares claim that the hoax theorist movement has taken a turn for the worse?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 15, 2014, 09:08:47 PM
Summary Review of Haunted by Neil Armstrong

A quick thumb-through of Burns' book indicates absolutely no verification of his claims whatsoever.  While there are mentions of David Chin and the guest book, there is no indication whatsoever that anyone or anything at the golf club validated in any way -- or indeed even knew about -- his beliefs and claims in this book.  All the "validation" comes entirely from his assertion to have been accompanied on his second golf trip by the ghost of Neil Armstrong.

Pages 11-13 contain his recollection of a paper he claims to have written on travel to the Moon in pursuit of a physics degree.  He claims to have received high marks for it, but it is an abysmally ignorant expostulation that displays almost no correct understanding of space flight.

The bulk of the book is a shamelessly self-congratulatory travelogue of an extended golfing excursion to several countries, largely irrelevant to the Apollo 11 crew, space flight, or his specific hoax claims.  The writing style alternates between pompous and numbingly tedious.  (Gillianren, you do not want to pollute your brain with this.)

On page 37 he addresses the claim of being able to play a military-only course, which is to say he mentions that he has been challenged several times that his claim cannot be true.  He offers absolutely no explanation on that page, but later claims that "the three men" whom he assumed to be the Apollo 11 crew signed him in "as their guest," which Armstrong's ghost seems to accept as a given.  In other words, Burns just sidesteps the facts by appealing again to the supernatural.  He also makes the mistake on the same page of asserting the mysterious 1960s Neil (presumably Armstrong) as "a military man," even though at that time he was no such thing.  He also gets Armstrong's age wrong.

His alleged second visit to the Navy Marine Golf Course occupies only pages 42-45.  As promised, a picture appears on page 43 of a man in a three-piece suit with white hair and facial hair standing next to a man who resembles David Chin just inside the entrance to the clubhouse.  The rug clearly displays the course emblem.  Only one other photo appears in this chapter, of the club's historical timeline.  This is significant because in the text he claims to have gone onto the course and taken photos, but no such photos appear in the book.  In contrast, he includes several photos of the public course at Mauna Kea.  Why no photos of Navy Marine except just inside the club house?

Contrary to his insinuations here and elsewhere, Burns presents no verifiable evidence that he golfed at this course either in 1969 or in 2013.  He presents no verifiable evidence that David Chin or anyone else at the course verified, or was even told about, any of the controversial aspects of his story.  And most telling, the chapter reveals that he did not find his name in any visitor's book, or indeed even looked for a book or his name.  His explanation is that his encounter with the ghost of Armstrong trumped any previous desire he might have had to confirm his visit or the presence of the Apollo 11 crew in any sort of guest register.

Let me repeat that.

There is no evidence whatsoever presented in this book that the author confirmed either his previous golf game at the Navy Marine course or the alleged presence of the Apollo 11 crew.  None whatsoever.

Burns documents in excruciating detail irrelevant parts of his story, such as his boarding pass to Honolulu and his bag tag at Mauna Kea.  But he provides no documentation or detail on the key thesis, or even such claims as that his golf game at Mauna Kea was the prize for winning the alleged competition at the Navy Marine course.

Pages 53-56 elaborate Burns' allegations of what Armstrong's ghost told him about the claimed hoax, and purports to explain what they were doing in Hawaii and why.  Needless to say it is chock full of verifiable detail, almost all of which is provably wrong.  In short, the crew were supposed to splash down soon after takeoff in a different part of the ocean but missed their landing point and had to be smuggled back to civilization.  As to why they appeared in public and risked ruining the hoax, Burns simply asserts the best place to hide was in plain site.  The whole chapter is filled with internal inconsistencies and completely fabricated layman's suppositions about Apollo operations, all passed off as posthumous testimony from Armstrong.

Not content with trampling Neil Armstrong's grave with his golf spikes, Burns adds a chapter with Ellison Onizuka's ghost who somehow knew about Burns' college physics paper and validated parts of it.  Something about using springs to get to orbit.  (I wish I were kidding.)

I'll read it through completely tomorrow and start on the formal review, just in case this brief summary missed a detail.  But from my brief skim it appears this book is indeed every bit the egotistical travesty we feared it to be -- and much, much more.  If I were [Andrew] Neil Burns, I would honestly feel terribly ashamed for alleging such obvious nonsensical fabrication as fact.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: beedarko on September 15, 2014, 09:50:47 PM
If I were [Andrew] Neil Burns, I would honestly feel terribly ashamed for alleging such obvious nonsensical fabrication as fact.

British humour?

Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 15, 2014, 11:36:14 PM
If I were [Andrew] Neil Burns, I would honestly feel terribly ashamed for alleging such obvious nonsensical fabrication as fact.

British humour?

No, I typically get British humo(u)r.  This is just sick and sad.  We haven't even gotten to his claims of time travel.  I can see that portions of the book are meant to be taken as factual, aside from claims to the supernatural.  Other portions are alleged as facts disclosed by ghosts.  The latter are comically wrong.  They contradict well known facts, despite their "authoritative" source, and can't even stay consistent with themselves.

Whatever it claims to be, it is fiction -- and abysmally bad fiction:  poorly researched, meandering, pompous, and pointless.  I've seen Twilight fan fiction that reads better than this.  In order to discern what Burns (i.e., Jockndoris) wants to claim regarding Armstrong and Apollo, you have to wade through his insufferable biography -- endless self-praise for his prowess at golf and computer-based accounting.  And after you've stomached that egoist orgy, he announces that "Modesty" prevents him from disclosing the facts by which you can verify his biographical claims.

So I poured myself a drink -- Dubonnet and gin, in honor of HM Elizabeth Regina II -- and read the whole thing cover to cover.  It is the most tedious, ill-researched book of any kind I can remember reading in quite a while, and I've read Percy's book.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: dwight on September 15, 2014, 11:40:42 PM
Jay, may I recommend playing "Yakety Sax" whilst reading the tome? I think it will greatly assist in your immersive experience.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 16, 2014, 12:07:05 AM
Jay, may I recommend playing "Yakety Sax" whilst reading the tome? I think it will greatly assist in your immersive experience.

Nope, not working -- no scantily-clad ladies dancing about, and I'm out of gin.

I wish I could persuade Mr. Burns to draw the curtain aside, take a bow, and accept his bouquet (or is it "Bucket"?) with a flourish for his performance.  But no, the personal letter he tucked inside the front cover makes it pretty clear this isn't a joke.  In it he alludes to the physics thesis he wrote in 1963 detailing why a manned lunar mission was impossible, which is summarized early in the book.  And he praises himself on having the "courage" at the time to claim it was faked.

What a coincidence then, that a scant year after Armstrong passed away (thus rendering himself unable to defend his honor), this clown comes along and claims that two dead astronauts confirm his admitted pre-existing belief that the Moon landings were fake.  He doesn't even really try to explain the evidence.  He just asserts it's a hoax, that Ghost Armstrong told him that, and that it all somehow works out.  His explanation for the film and video, for example, is that Armstrong told him he was instructed to "hop about" so that, according to the fictional producer, it would "look realistic."  Good heavens, even the Blunder from Down Under at least tried to claim they fiddled with the video frame rates, etc.

We're in Sam Colby country, if you ask me.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: gillianren on September 16, 2014, 02:02:24 AM
You know, I wouldn't expect the astronauts themselves to know every detail of the hoax, but there are some they'd have to know, like why they were allowed to be anywhere anyone could see them when they were supposed to be on the Moon.  (I do not accept "hide in plain sight," because that's stupid.)  I don't claim to know the level the astronauts would have to know, but I can guarantee they'd know at least some details and would be able to explain them.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Tedward on September 16, 2014, 02:53:42 AM
As valid as my cup of tea claim then, I should write a book. It was Gunpowder Tea and the biscuits were Garibaldi and in case they were not around in 1969 I built a time machine and took a packet back.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Zakalwe on September 16, 2014, 03:04:44 AM
As valid as my cup of tea claim then, I should write a book. It was Gunpowder Tea and the biscuits were Garibaldi and in case they were not around in 1969 I built a time machine and took a packet back.

You had me up to the Garibaldi bit. Now if you said custard creams then I would be a believer......
 :D
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: smartcooky on September 16, 2014, 04:00:07 AM
You know, I wouldn't expect the astronauts themselves to know every detail of the hoax, but there are some they'd have to know, like why they were allowed to be anywhere anyone could see them when they were supposed to be on the Moon.  (I do not accept "hide in plain sight," because that's stupid.)  I don't claim to know the level the astronauts would have to know, but I can guarantee they'd know at least some details and would be able to explain them.

Nor do I.

Even in far away New Zealand, where we didn't see any live coverage at all of Apollo 11, Neil Armstrong and Edwin Aldrin were household names and were seen just about every night on the 6pm news in the last few weeks before launch. They would have been immediately recognised in public. This would surely have been even more the case in Hawaii, let alone at a golf course on a Naval Base.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Zakalwe on September 16, 2014, 04:32:42 AM
The claim in this pamphlet is so ridiculous that it reminds me of spam email tactics, where the spam is so bizarre or badly-constructed that only the most gullible would be drawn into it. This makes the success rate for the spammer much higher as he/she only interacts with the most gullible of targets. In effect, the most susceptible to spamming in society self-identifies by responding to the most ridiculous claims.

Microsoft did some research on this (http://research.microsoft.com/pubs/167719/WhyFromNigeria.pdf).
"Since gullibility is unobservable, the best strategy is to get those who possess this quality to self-identify. An email with tales of fabulous amounts of money and West African corruption will strike all but the most gullible as bizarre. It will be recognized and ignored by anyone who has been using the Internet long enough to have seen it several times. It will be figured out by anyone savvy enough to use a search engine and follow up on the auto-complete suggestions such as shown in Figure 8. It won’t be pursued by anyone who consults sensible family or fiends, or who reads any of the advice banks and money transfer agencies make available. Those who remain are the scammers ideal targets. They represent a tiny subset of the overall population." (emphasis mine)


Burns' claims are so ridiculously embedded in the land of Woo-Woo that in order to sell any of these books he would have to get it under the noses of the most gullible. I fear that he has picked the wrong demographic by posting on this forum.....
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: twik on September 16, 2014, 09:34:35 AM
Interesting that he has a picture of David Chin (presumably), but not anything dating back to the period in question. It's quite possible he could have gone to the course club house and met Mr. Chin (depending on how strict they are about military personnel). But that has absolutely nothing to do with him being there in 1969 with Armstrong.

May I entertain myself with the idea that Jock did, indeed, write a paper in the early 60's saying a moon landing was impossible, and his book is a flimsy attempt to justify that he was actually right?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 16, 2014, 10:48:17 AM
You know, I wouldn't expect the astronauts themselves to know every detail of the hoax...

Chapter 12 of the book, continuing into Chapter 13, is a monologue purporting to be Ghost Armstrong telling Burns something of how the hoax was done.  But the "ghost" can't make up its mind whether the crew knew even knew about it or not. In ch. 12 the story is that the crew had trained extensively for a fake splashdown and clandestine rescue, to be sequestered and then produced later for a staged splashdown.

But in ch. 13 the story is that the crew is taken to "Lot 151 in Nevada" so that "a Hollywood film crew" can film what the crew are told are training and publicity films.  Ghost Armstrong says he is shocked later to discover what those films were really used for.  The recollection of Burns' physics thesis is presented early in the book, ostensibly to suggest that by 1963 any competent physicist would have known that travel to the Moon would be impossible.  So we're left wondering how Armstrong (a fully qualified engineer, suborbital astronaut, and test pilot) wouldn't have also known this.  In the personal letter he added, he underscores that supposedly ubiquitous understanding and suggest he is one of the few to have the "courage" to voice his disbelief.

And you'd expect an astronaut to know something of space.  I've already mentioned Burns' disastrously erroneous physics thesis.  (He attributes the genesis of orbital mechanics to Arthur C. Clarke, for example.)  And you've seen in his threads here how utterly incapable Burns is of conversing knowledgeably about space science and engineering.  Predictably enough, Ghost Armstrong displays exactly the same brand of ignorance as Burns.  Where Burns gets orbital mechanics and spacecraft dynamics wrong, so does Ghost Armstrong.  A layman reader will likely take Burns' boasts of physics prowess (which, again, he is too "modest" to substantiate) at face value.  But as I wrote above, it displays almost no correct knowledge.

A strong underlying premise of the book is that Ghost Armstrong is substantially the way he was in life, circa 1960.  It has to be that way, else how could Burns recognize him in 2013?  But just as Burns puts all the wrong technical words into Ghost Armstrong's mouth, he puts a completely wrong character into his incorporeal entity.  It's one thing to claim to meet ghosts from the distant past and fill those fictional conversations with plausible texture and detail.  But when you do this to a recently deceased person who met and interacted with quite a lot of people, you have to be spot-on in your character research.  To those of us who knew Armstrong and have met and worked with real astronauts, Burn's Ghost Armstrong is a flimsy, one-dimension caricature of what a mediocre author might conceive an astronaut to be.  The real Armstrong bears as much resemblance to Burns' laughable one-off as Atticus Finch does to Daffy Duck.

Quote
[W]hy they were allowed to be anywhere anyone could see them when they were supposed to be on the Moon.  (I do not accept "hide in plain sight," because that's stupid.)

Burns offers no excuse.  He simply asserts it was the best way to hide, and even adds the damning detail that they should hide at the golf course where they frequently played.  Even worse, the bulk of the second and third pages of Ghost Armstrong's narrative of being rescued by local fishermen after landing off course is the obsession over not being seen or recognized and how imperative that was to the hoax's success.  But less than a page later he abandons that and has the crew frolicking all over Oahu.  Even worse, a "military man" comes from "the base" and, in full view of this civilian, reminds them that they have to get back.

Like I said, it's obviously fiction, and it's unbelievably bad fiction.  Even kids writing fan fiction grasp enough of the process to realize they have to create (or extend) believable characters and they have to pay attention to consistency of plot and accuracy of detail.  And when they add detail, it has to be well researched and reasonably credible.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 16, 2014, 12:04:53 PM
Interesting that he has a picture of David Chin (presumably), but not anything dating back to the period in question.

He presents no artifacts of any kind to substantiate that he played golf at Navy Marine Golf Course in 1969.  Burns claims to be an avid, expert golfer and a member of the Royal and Ancient.  Golfers are enthusiastic souvenir keepers, and Burns seems to be no exception.  If I travel from here in Utah to play at St. Andrews, you can bet I'll be keeping my scorecard.  Yet here is Neil Burns, the golfers' golfer, being invited to play unexpectedly in a competition at an exclusive Hawaii golf course, and even winning the competition.  Yet he didn't keep the scorecard, or anything else.

He alludes to artifacts that supposedly could be produced, but aren't.  The infamous visitor's book, into which the "three military men" signed him in as a guest, is mentioned a few times.  But Burns never sees it.  In fact, Burns never asks to see it.  Nor does he even ascertain that any such book exists.  He says Armstrong gave him some of his monogrammed golf balls, but he apparently cannot produce them today.  He says one of the crew paid for a new pair of golf shorts for him, charging it to his account.  Burns would later discover in his golf bag a scorecard from Mauna Kea signed by his three friends.  But he cannot produce this either.  Something like an authenticated set of signatures on an official course scorecard would not only substantiate Burns' story but also be worth something north of $5,000 on the autograph market.

The only substantiation he produces for visiting the golf course in 2013 are the two photographs.  One purports to be him with David Chin.  I'm reasonably certain the person identified as Chin really is him.  The other person is somewhat credible as the author.  The About the Author section at Jockndoris contains a photograph of Burns at evidently a substantially younger age.  The man in the book's photo is considerably older and has facial hair.  General features, pattern baldness, and so forth are reasonably congruent.  They are standing just inside the door of a modern facility, on a rug showing the course seal.  Some aspects of the seal as depicted in the photograph suggest it may be a digital modification, but it is difficult to separate those artifacts from ordinary spatial quantization -- I would need to see the original photo in order to validate it.  Secondary characteristics such as photos of navy officers in the background and desk paraphernalia suggest this is a military office.  Based on that, it's reasonable to conclude Burns met Chin at a building associated with the course.

The second photo is of a plaque giving what appears to be an historical timeline of the course.  The green awning along the top edge matches the green awning seen in the posed photo.  This suggests it was taken in the same room.  The name of the course is barely visible in the photo.  No people or distinctive scenery appear in this photo to identify where and when it was taken.

Burns claims to have taken photos of golfers teeing, but he does not reproduce them.  We know from modern reviews that non-military people are allowed on some premises of the course, if only to ascertain that it is not public and that they will not be admitted.  Hence it is reasonable to believe that Burns was in one such building associated with the club, that Chin met him there and posed for a photo, but that Burns was not permitted any further.

Most of the narrative Burns proposes for his 2013 visit to the course is in the form of a time-travel episode back to 1969, guided by Ghost Armstrong.

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May I entertain myself with the idea that Jock did, indeed, write a paper in the early 60's saying a moon landing was impossible, and his book is a flimsy attempt to justify that he was actually right?

I don't get that impression.  "Jock" (i.e., Andrew Neil Burns) writes mostly about ghosts from history.  This time I think he just got too close to history that too many of his readers know well enough.  Ghosts are his thing.  There's a feeble disclaimer at the bottom of page 8:  "Those of you who do not believe in ghosts should stop reading now because you will only become cross and frustrated."  The problem is that even if you do believe in ghosts, the ghosts in this book are obviously, clumsily fabricated.

I think it's likely that the "physics thesis" is largely fabricated as well, meaning there may be a nugget of truth behind it but it has been fairly evidently inflated.  It's conceivable that Burns believed at the time that travel to the Moon was impossible, but this "Physics degree" claim lands like a blob of icky tar in the middle of an otherwise pristine meadow of chartered accountancy.  After studying physics at St. Andrews for a number a years and allegedly earning a degree in it, suddenly his father apprentices him to an accounting firm and this becomes his entire life thereafter.  Kennedy's challenge came, he says, during his "final year of his BSc" degree, but then he describes 1963 being his final year of the "Physics degree."  Barring some obscure British educational practice of which I'm unaware, his timeline doesn't fit.

I don't think the book was written to justify the thesis.  I think the thesis was fabricated or embellished in order to justify the book.  Ghost Armstrong still needs a premise for the hoax, and the standard premise is that Moon missions were impossible.  But how to establish that?  Voilà, the suddenly brilliant physics thesis he must have written.

In one scene, Burns the brilliant student writes (what he claims is) a masterful expert analysis of the U.S. space program.  But in a subsequent scene he has abandoned all interest in U.S. space travel, is busy writing Quick Basic programs to revolutionize the art of accounting, and is living in Cape Town, South Africa where -- "naturally" -- he is completely cut off from television or international news and thus completely unable to recognize the three most famous people in the world in 1969 as they step onto his airliner in Fiji.

Nor, upon arriving in Hawaii, does he take a moment to sit down with 600 million other people the first Moon landing on television.  You know -- that thing a scant 6 years before he said could never happen, and for which saying he was awarded a Physics degree.  Well, it was happening, and we have to believe Burns was uninterested.  Even Ghost Armstrong said that on the day they (he, Aldrin, Collins, and our author) arrived in Hawaii, "everybody who had access to a television was watching."  Everyone, of course, except Burns.

All that has to be the case so that you believe he doesn't recognize the Apollo 11 crew as they cavort freely around the Hawaiian islands playing golf.  You have to believe that Burns emerges from his African sequestration to discover that the brilliant cornerstone of his Physics degree is now being overturned, and he doesn't do what Ghost Armstrong says everyone else was doing.

Well, Burns needs to think carefully before writing personal letters to critics.  In his letter he writes, "We all held our fingers and cheered when it was shown on television..."

So now he says he did watch it.  And yet somehow it took him 40 years to figure out that the people he was watching on television that day claim to land on the Moon were the people he says he was playing golf with, that day.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: twik on September 16, 2014, 12:05:48 PM

Whatever it claims to be, it is fiction -- and abysmally bad fiction:  poorly researched, meandering, pompous, and pointless.  I've seen Twilight fan fiction that reads better than this. 

OK, who else has a vision of JayUtah with a secret passion for Twilight fan fiction?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Jockndoris on September 16, 2014, 12:36:55 PM
Summary Review of Haunted by Neil Armstrong

A quick thumb-through of Burns' book indicates absolutely no verification of his claims whatsoever.  While there are mentions of David Chin and the guest book, there is no indication whatsoever that anyone or anything at the golf club validated in any way -- or indeed even knew about -- his beliefs and claims in this book.  All the "validation" comes entirely from his assertion to have been accompanied on his second golf trip by the ghost of Neil Armstrong.

Pages 11-13 contain his recollection of a paper he claims to have written on travel to the Moon in pursuit of a physics degree.  He claims to have received high marks for it, but it is an abysmally ignorant expostulation that displays almost no correct understanding of space flight.

The bulk of the book is a shamelessly self-congratulatory travelogue of an extended golfing excursion to several countries, largely irrelevant to the Apollo 11 crew, space flight, or his specific hoax claims.  The writing style alternates between pompous and numbingly tedious.  (Gillianren, you do not want to pollute your brain with this.)

On page 37 he addresses the claim of being able to play a military-only course, which is to say he mentions that he has been challenged several times that his claim cannot be true.  He offers absolutely no explanation on that page, but later claims that "the three men" whom he assumed to be the Apollo 11 crew signed him in "as their guest," which Armstrong's ghost seems to accept as a given.  In other words, Burns just sidesteps the facts by appealing again to the supernatural.  He also makes the mistake on the same page of asserting the mysterious 1960s Neil (presumably Armstrong) as "a military man," even though at that time he was no such thing.  He also gets Armstrong's age wrong.

His alleged second visit to the Navy Marine Golf Course occupies only pages 42-45.  As promised, a picture appears on page 43 of a man in a three-piece suit with white hair and facial hair standing next to a man who resembles David Chin just inside the entrance to the clubhouse.  The rug clearly displays the course emblem.  Only one other photo appears in this chapter, of the club's historical timeline.  This is significant because in the text he claims to have gone onto the course and taken photos, but no such photos appear in the book.  In contrast, he includes several photos of the public course at Mauna Kea.  Why no photos of Navy Marine except just inside the club house?

Contrary to his insinuations here and elsewhere, Burns presents no verifiable evidence that he golfed at this course either in 1969 or in 2013.  He presents no verifiable evidence that David Chin or anyone else at the course verified, or was even told about, any of the controversial aspects of his story.  And most telling, the chapter reveals that he did not find his name in any visitor's book, or indeed even looked for a book or his name.  His explanation is that his encounter with the ghost of Armstrong trumped any previous desire he might have had to confirm his visit or the presence of the Apollo 11 crew in any sort of guest register.

Let me repeat that.

There is no evidence whatsoever presented in this book that the author confirmed either his previous golf game at the Navy Marine course or the alleged presence of the Apollo 11 crew.  None whatsoever.

Burns documents in excruciating detail irrelevant parts of his story, such as his boarding pass to Honolulu and his bag tag at Mauna Kea.  But he provides no documentation or detail on the key thesis, or even such claims as that his golf game at Mauna Kea was the prize for winning the alleged competition at the Navy Marine course.

Pages 53-56 elaborate Burns' allegations of what Armstrong's ghost told him about the claimed hoax, and purports to explain what they were doing in Hawaii and why.  Needless to say it is chock full of verifiable detail, almost all of which is provably wrong.  In short, the crew were supposed to splash down soon after takeoff in a different part of the ocean but missed their landing point and had to be smuggled back to civilization.  As to why they appeared in public and risked ruining the hoax, Burns simply asserts the best place to hide was in plain site.  The whole chapter is filled with internal inconsistencies and completely fabricated layman's suppositions about Apollo operations, all passed off as posthumous testimony from Armstrong.

Not content with trampling Neil Armstrong's grave with his golf spikes, Burns adds a chapter with Ellison Onizuka's ghost who somehow knew about Burns' college physics paper and validated parts of it.  Something about using springs to get to orbit.  (I wish I were kidding.)

I'll read it through completely tomorrow and start on the formal review, just in case this brief summary missed a detail.  But from my brief skim it appears this book is indeed every bit the egotistical travesty we feared it to be -- and much, much more.  If I were [Andrew] Neil Burns, I would honestly feel terribly ashamed for alleging such obvious nonsensical fabrication as fact.

JayUtah
I am delighted you have received the book and clearly have enjoyed reading it from cover to cover.    The whole purpose of writing is for someone else to read and enjoy what you have written.

You have written about 2000 words of critique and I am most grateful. You are telling your pro Apollo colleagues how interesting the book must be.   Possibly they will all want to buy or request a copy now!

In your case of course you have the added bonus of having learned something new-  furthering your education about Space flight which seemed to be sadly lacking.  All your facts seem to be based on computer simulations handed out to you by NASA.

I hope you have now had the courage to ring David Chin and get confirmation from him and then realise that you have been wrong about Apollo for all these years.   Jockndoris   




Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: frenat on September 16, 2014, 12:46:13 PM
If you seriously think ANY of that indicated he enjoyed reading it, that he learned anything new from your dreck, or that he was wrong about Apollo then you are completely delusional.

Did you really miss the part where your facts are wrong, your science is wrong, you lack substantiation of anything and it reads worse that Twilight fan fiction?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: onebigmonkey on September 16, 2014, 12:54:37 PM
If JnD deduces that Jay enjoyed the book on the basis of that review, then I think we can be pretty certain about the accuracy of his historical recollections.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 16, 2014, 01:04:19 PM
I am delighted you have received the book and clearly have enjoyed reading it from cover to cover.

Are you reading the same review I am?  Your book is excruciating.  It's pompous, poorly-written, and clearly a fabrication.  The fact that you're selling it for money borders on outright fraud.

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You are telling your pro Apollo colleagues how interesting the book must be.

No, I'm telling them to avoid it at all costs.  And I will be doing the same thing very shortly on Amazon.com.

I was not evaluating it for "interest."  I was evaluating it for accuracy -- of which there is none.  However, if I were evaluating it for interest I would give it even lower marks.  It's a tedious recitation of your irrelevant biographical details, fatally burdened by lengthy egotistical excursions into your accountancy career.  You don't even posit a credible or complete hoax theory.

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In your case of course you have the added bonus of having learned something new-  furthering your education about Space flight which seemed to be sadly lacking.

Utter nonsense.  You demonstrate practically no correct understanding of space flight, and your claims to have acquired it are so fraught with obvious inconsistencies as to be comical.  And I dare you to stick around here and attempt to prove how expert you really are.  Understand that here your knowledge about space engineering and the history of space exploration will be challenged vigorously by a number of career professional engineers including myself.  My guess is that you will not accept that challenge.

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All your facts seem to be based on computer simulations handed out to you by NASA.

No.  My facts are based on practicing aerospace engineering professionally for 25 years and being a recognized expert in the history of Apollo.  You are welcome to test your knowledge against mine any time you wish.  However, you may not simply declare your critics to be uninformed.

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I hope you have now had the courage to ring David Chin and get confirmation from him...

You haven't told me what exactly you expected Chin to confirm.  You apparently didn't tell him anything about your claims of playing there in 1969, or about your visits from ghosts.  I will certainly call him once you tell me what you expect him to say.  But so far all you insinuate is that you met him and had your picture taken with him.  There's no point to confirming such an irrelevant detail.

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...and then realise that you have been wrong about Apollo for all these years.   Jockndoris

No, I'm certain I am not wrong.  You haven't even done rudimentary research into Apollo, or space engineering in general.  Your story can't even stay consistent between two consecutive pages.  The details in your book are so comically non-NASA they don't even qualify as credible fiction.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 16, 2014, 01:07:00 PM
If JnD deduces that Jay enjoyed the book on the basis of that review, then I think we can be pretty certain about the accuracy of his historical recollections.

I think at this point "delusional" is an appropriate label.  If any part of that review, or my subsequent comments, came across to him as any form of approval, he simply doesn't have a toehold in reality.  I understand his desire to sell his little ghost stories, but there's a line to be drawn at flatly misrepresenting a review.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: raven on September 16, 2014, 01:16:26 PM
As Adam Savage famously quoted, "I reject your reality and substitute my own!"
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Tedward on September 16, 2014, 01:41:58 PM
Problem is no he has a name he can add to the delusion and spin it. But I say he is wrong and Neil was at my house and my version has a better chance as it has less things I need to lie about. Apart from the biscuits.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: RAF on September 16, 2014, 02:12:06 PM
He also gets Armstrong's age wrong.

Perhaps Armstrong's "ghost" lied about his age?

Seriously, though...it takes a real special type of willful ignorance to get such a trivial fact, wrong.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Al Johnston on September 16, 2014, 02:17:01 PM
It appears that JnD's reading and writing skills are at least consistent
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: RAF on September 16, 2014, 02:26:51 PM
I am delighted you have received the book and clearly have enjoyed reading it from cover to cover.

Somewhat the same way a person "enjoys" having a root canal?   

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The whole purpose of writing is for someone else to read and enjoy what you have written.

Then you have failed...no one "enjoys" reading stupid lies.


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You are telling your pro Apollo colleagues how interesting the book must be.

Interesting?...no, more like seriously sad.

   
Quote
Possibly they will all want to buy or request a copy now!

Not on dare...not if you paid me...just NO.


Quote
In your case of course you have the added bonus of having learned something new-  furthering your education about Space flight which seemed to be sadly lacking.

How insulting. Apparently you STILL fail to understand that Jay is a RECOGNIZED AUTHORITY on this subject, while YOU can't even get Armstrong's age right.

As an "instructor", you can't teach us a damn thing re. Apollo.

 
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All your facts seem to be based on computer simulations handed out to you by NASA.

What a silly lie. Do you really believe that scientists of the world base their opinion on "spoon fed" NASA "simulations"?

Guess you don't have a very high opinion of scientists or the work they do...well, right back atch ya.


Quote
I hope you have now had the courage to ring David Chin and get confirmation from him and then realise that you have been wrong about Apollo for all these years.

The Apollo missions occurred "as advertised". If your ignorance prevents you from realizing that, well, we really can't fix stupid.




Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Sus_pilot on September 16, 2014, 02:29:12 PM
Jockndoris - I can only add to what the others are saying:  Jay didn't just review your book, it was one of the best filleting jobs I've ever seen outside of Nick's Fish Market in Chicago.  Even if I believed that Apollo was a hoax, Jay's review would have ensured I wouldn't waste time with your prose.

Jay - thank you for squelching any morbid curiosity I had about the book. I get tempted to buy such books for entertainment, but this is beyond the pale. 
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: smartcooky on September 16, 2014, 02:59:14 PM
It appears that JnD's reading and writing and thinking skills are at least consistent


FTFY
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 16, 2014, 02:59:42 PM
As a final insult, Burns prints his book on thick, clay-coated paper making it unsuitable even for use in the bathroom.  My best recommendation is for a table whose leg is perhaps a quarter-inch too short.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 16, 2014, 03:18:36 PM
Quote
The whole purpose of writing is for someone else to read and enjoy what you have written.

Then you have failed...no one "enjoys" reading stupid lies.

Naturally I too disagree that the purpose of writing is necessarily for the reader's enjoyment.   And so does he, because -- as we've all noted -- he purports also to educate.

His essay on space travel is about as ignorant as you would expect from his posts here.  So any reader who came away from his book thinking that he has been educated in the principles of space science and engineering would be sorely mistaken.  If you write with the purpose of educating your reader, and you take a lackadaisical or deceptive approach to it, you can expect your critics fairly to crucify you.

But even if you disregard his claim that Haunted by Neil Armstrong is factual and treat it as fiction, it's far below the enjoyment threshold.  Earlier I alluded to the Pythonesque chartered accountant Arthur Pewty in jest, but here I resurrect the allusion with full intent.  Andrew Neil Burns is not one of those exciting chartered accountants.  He comes across in the book as the stereotypical accountant, bereft of charisma and interest.  The book bogs down in tedious autobiographical detail, pompously describing a life that simply fails to interest.  And for a book only a few millimeters thick, to say it "bogs down" really means something.  Literally, Mrs. Pumphrey's groundskeeper in the James Herriot books provides a more engaging premise for a character than Burns.

Quote
Not on dare...not if you paid me...just NO.

Indeed, just no.  I guarantee you'll want back the hour or so it takes to read this book.

Quote
What a silly lie. Do you really believe that scientists of the world base their opinion on "spoon fed" NASA "simulations"?

I think he does, because the phrase recurs a couple times in the book.  He doesn't really go into much detail about what he means by it.  "Practically all our training was by simulations on the computer," is what he has Ghost Armstrong say.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Andromeda on September 16, 2014, 03:19:09 PM
As a final insult, Burns prints his book on thick, clay-coated paper making it unsuitable even for use in the bathroom.

I'd have thought that would have made it quite absorbent.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 16, 2014, 03:42:53 PM
I'd have thought that would have made it quite absorbent.

No, it's that waxy, high-gloss paper that you use for printing fine detail.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Allan F on September 16, 2014, 03:52:48 PM
As a final insult, Burns prints his book on thick, clay-coated paper making it unsuitable even for use in the bathroom.  My best recommendation is for a table whose leg is perhaps a quarter-inch too short.

Oh, the type used in public restrooms, usually referred to as "Clint Eastwood"?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Nowhere Man on September 16, 2014, 06:16:43 PM
No, it's that waxy, high-gloss paper that you use for printing fine detail.
That means it won't burn worth a damn, either.
Fred
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: dwight on September 16, 2014, 08:01:34 PM
I wonder what would happen if I said that Neil Armstrong appeared to me and told me he was messing with conspiracists heads because of their damn fool hasseling of him during his later life?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: raven on September 16, 2014, 08:01:51 PM
No, it's that waxy, high-gloss paper that you use for printing fine detail.
That means it won't burn worth a damn, either.
Fred
I was about to say the same thing. And pencil and pen tend to not work so well, so you can't even use it as doodle or note taking paper. Seriously, this book has no redeeming qualities whatsoever!
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: onebigmonkey on September 17, 2014, 12:36:27 AM
Given the thread title, it's also off topic.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: ka9q on September 17, 2014, 05:39:00 AM
To Jockndoris: By chance did Armstrong's ghost tell you to avenge his death and implicate his own brother in the plot?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: ineluki on September 17, 2014, 08:48:05 AM
Jockndoris   

Awe never came around to answering this, perhaps you could...

Just to test a personal hypothesis could you tell me the capital of France?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: skeptic_UK on September 17, 2014, 12:19:47 PM
wow, this thread kinda exploded!  :o

I have to say I also ordered a copy of Mr Burns' book and have spent the last week slowly reading it. While it's certainly a very fantastical setting, it's impossible to really know if it's true or not. I found it a very good read. I think some people here are just pre-judging the book based on their own views on the author rather than the actual content.  ;)

For example the constant calling of it as a 'pamphlet' is rather rude really. Granted, It's not the longest book, but I still easily found it value for money.

The world map especially was very nicely done, and interesting to see the route he took around the world. Kudos to him for making it. I'm very tempted to order the 'full version' of the book as the chapter headings seem most intriguing.

I can understand why you might not believe it's true. But if it is or isn't doesn't take away from its entertainment value imho.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Allan F on September 17, 2014, 12:42:35 PM
Impossible to know if it was true or not? Are you kidding? Communicating with ghosts, astronauts playing golf when they were supposed to be on the moon? The MOST DOCUMENTED event in human history?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Echnaton on September 17, 2014, 12:45:18 PM
it's impossible to really know if it's true or not

You have difficulty differentiating truth from fiction when it concerns claims of conversing with ghosts? 


This is the point in a personal conversation where I would say something like, "What chance do you think the Texans (https://www.google.com/search?q=houston+texans) have this year?"
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Tedward on September 17, 2014, 12:47:48 PM
wow, this thread kinda exploded!  :o

I have to say I also ordered a copy of Mr Burns' book and have spent the last week slowly reading it. While it's certainly a very fantastical setting, it's impossible to really know if it's true or not. I found it a very good read. I think some people here are just pre-judging the book based on their own views on the author rather than the actual content.  ;)

For example the constant calling of it as a 'pamphlet' is rather rude really. Granted, It's not the longest book, but I still easily found it value for money.

The world map especially was very nicely done, and interesting to see the route he took around the world. Kudos to him for making it. I'm very tempted to order the 'full version' of the book as the chapter headings seem most intriguing.

I can understand why you might not believe it's true. But if it is or isn't doesn't take away from its entertainment value imho.

You are having a giraffe now.

You said
"it's impossible to really know if it's true or not"

Come on, I base my view on evidence I can get to grips with not flights of fancy.

Do you need to know the route I took to buy the biscuits that I gave to Mr Armstrong? I can provide just as valid evidence.

Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: darren r on September 17, 2014, 12:49:07 PM
Hmm. Is anyone else starting to smell a rat here?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Echnaton on September 17, 2014, 12:51:06 PM
Hmm. Is anyone else starting to smell a rat here?

Yup.  One named Socks.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 17, 2014, 12:59:25 PM
wow, this thread kinda exploded!  :o

Okay, at this point it's pretty obvious you're another sock puppet of Neil Burns.

Let's throw that on the pile of the massive deception you've perpetrated in your book.  You lie repeatedly and habitually.  You say your word has never been questioned -- well, it's being questioned now, in a big way.  You are a company director of several companies in the U.K.  Do you believe this is acceptable behavior for a professional?

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I have to say I also ordered a copy of Mr Burns' book and have spent the last week slowly reading it.

That's very slow indeed.  The book is only a quarter inch thick, folio-sized, 12-point text.  How anyone could take so long to read it is beyond me.

Quote
While it's certainly a very fantastical setting, it's impossible to really know if it's true or not.

Nonsense.  It's obviously false.  Its purported science is flatly and ignorantly wrong.  You carefully avoid offering any way to verify your claims -- all the "verification" is simply your further claims of ghostly communion (which themselves are patently false, as we see below).  Your narrative is riddled with blatant inconsistencies, and the characters that you purport to be real people are comically one-dimensional and not at all like the people and institutions we are familiar with.  This is the problem when your ghost character is a recently deceased real person and when you invoke institutions that may seem exotic and faraway to you, but to your readers are mundane, familiar entities.

Quote
I think some people here are just pre-judging the book based on their own views on the author rather than the actual content.  ;)

I'm judging it entirely by its content.  Its content is rubbish from beginning to end.

Quote
For example the constant calling of it as a 'pamphlet' is rather rude really.

No, it's a pamphlet.  Or it would be, if you were to remove the several chapters that have nothing to do with Armstrong or Apollo and simply drone on about what an exceptional golfer and accountant you are.  The relevant parts of the book comprise the 3 pages of your pseudo-science essay, the 4 pages where you visit Navy Marine Golf Course, and the 3 pages that allege to be Armstrong's monologue.  The rest is just self-indulgent filler.

Quote
The world map especially was very nicely done...

Well, I wasn't going to say anything about that because I considered it a cheap shot.  But since you mentioned it -- it's not nicely done at all.  It's so DCT-mangled you can't even make out the labels.  I literally have seen children do better graphics work in Microsoft Paint.

And it's completely irrelevant to Armstrong, Apollo, and your hoax claims.  It's simply part of the tedious irrelevant travelogue, ostensibly to impress the reader with what a world traveler you are.

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I can understand why you might not believe it's true. But if it is or isn't doesn't take away from its entertainment value imho.

Asked and answered.  If you had posed it as fiction, its entertainment value would be relevant.  Even as fiction it's abominable, for the reasons given many times in this thread.

But since you pose it as putative fact, its entertainment value is irrelevant.  Allegations of fact have value only in how truthful they are.  Your "ghost of Neil Armstrong" character repeats exactly the same kinds of gross, fundamental mistakes in orbital mechanics that you do in your purportedly degree-winning thesis.  They are characteristic errors, as telltale as fingeprints.  That's how we know it's you putting your words into Armstrong's mouth, and consequently how we know that you're lying -- and that you know you're lying.

You, sir, ought to be ashamed.  Your behavior is puerile and reprehensible, not at all befitting a grown man.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 17, 2014, 01:11:07 PM
Hmm. Is anyone else starting to smell a rat here?

Yes.  I think it's quite reprehensible for a grown man -- a chartered accountant and company director who says his honor is impeccable -- to pretend to be another person in order to shill his awful book.  I kind of expect that sort of childishness from other hoax claimants, but not from someone who claims to be well educated and prominent.

And thus it becomes even more apparent that he started this thread solely to drum up the appearance of support for his book.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Zakalwe on September 17, 2014, 01:33:17 PM
Is it printed on nice soft three-ply tissue paper?  ::)

As a final insult, Burns prints his book on thick, clay-coated paper making it unsuitable even for use in the bathroom. 
I had my finger hovering over the "Buy" button until you said that!

Hmm. Is anyone else starting to smell a rat here?
Dunno about rats, but there's a distinct whiff of socks in the air.....

I have to say I also ordered a copy of Mr Burns' book
"Ordered" or did you mean "authored"??

it's impossible to really know if it's true or not.
Only if you are the most ardent solipsist. For the the vast majority of people its not impossible at all. In fact it's easy to say, to a very, very high degree of probability that it's not true. The ramblings of a sole person, communing with ghosts, claiming to cure arthritis with gooseberry leaves versus one of the most documented programs in human history, one that was witnessed by hundreds of thousands of people and one that has stood every test thrown at it? No, not difficult at all.
It's also very easy to say that Mr. Burns is either an outright charlatan (along with the vast majority of psychics, mediums, ghost hunters who charge for their "services" and prey on the weak-minded and distraught), or a straight-up, card-carrying member of the Woo-Woo brigade.

I think some people here are just pre-judging the book based on their own views on the author rather than the actual content. 
I can't speak for anyone else here, but I am judging the book on the ridiculous claims made by the author. The claims are bunkum. Nothing wrong with that if it is being presented as fiction, but Burns is trying to present it as fact. Which leads me to repeat what I said earlier. He is either a charlatan preying on the gullible or hopelessly confused.

For example the constant calling of it as a 'pamphlet' is rather rude really.
Not as rude as impugning the reputation of one of the most famous people in history though. Nor as rude as trying to make a case that the hundreds of thousands of people that were involved in the Apollo program were lying. Funny how you hoaxies are so thin-skinned but also so easily able to sling outrageous slurs on people who were smarter than you and who achieved more in a few years than the whole lot of the hoax "community" will ever achieve in their lives.

but I still easily found it value for money.
Your definition of VFM has nothing to do with the veracity of the claim.


I can understand why you might not believe it's true. But if it is or isn't doesn't take away from its entertainment value imho.
Entertainment value is a personal thing. However,  according to Jay's review AND the one other review on Amazon.com that didn't appear to be written by the author (Hmm..more sock-puppetry, I wonder???) then I am fairly confident in saying that it's "entertainment value" is probably lower than a snake's belly..
Again, the author is claiming that it's factual. The truth isn't to be distorted to provide entertainment.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Echnaton on September 17, 2014, 02:18:55 PM
I can understand why you might not believe it's true. But if it is or isn't doesn't take away from its entertainment value imho.

A documentary that shows lemmings hurling themselves off cliffs and into the sea can have entertainment value, but it turns out it was a cruel lie also.   
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 17, 2014, 02:39:35 PM
It's also very easy to say that Mr. Burns is either an outright charlatan [...], or a straight-up, card-carrying member of the Woo-Woo brigade.

I think he's an outright liar.  There are indeed claims of the supernatural in the book, which the skeptic can reject categorically and the gullible can accept if they wish.  But there are other claims as well that have nothing to do with supernatural concourse and which, but for Burns' selective modesty, would be susceptible to fact-checking.  I speak principally of the essay he claims to have written for a physics degree, "proving" that, as of 1963, the American space program could not succeed at Kennedy's challenge.  It's layman's hogwash, and in no physics college in the civilized world would it be considered meritorious of a subject-matter degree.  The half that isn't layman's misconceptions is simply repeated denialism and argument from incredulity.

The latter is especially baffling when you consider that he's writing in 2013 and seems to have arbitrarily chosen 1963 as the bellwether date for feasibility.  If you accept the premise of the claim, that's when he wrote the paper, hence that must be the perspective.  But on the one hand, I don't believe he wrote that in 1963, and on the other hand it makes no sense not to have revised it to account for what happened afterward.

In 2013, looking at a milestone in 1969, you have to consider what happened in the period 1963-1969 to see whether your 1963 predictions came true.  Repeatedly saying, "I don't think NASA can solve this problem" is rational opinion (although not necessarily informed) if you really do happen to be in living in 1963, but it's very dishonest if something happened in the interim to invalidate your prediction and you fail to account for it when you write in 2013.

In his letter he reiterates that he "knew" in 1963 that travel to the Moon was impossible, and that he was hoping "some breakthrough" would occur.  Apparently, writing in 2013, he didn't think to check for that breakthrough.  He just seems to have assumed that all his lay handwringing in 1963 would be valid forever.  That breakthrough, of course, was Project Gemini and the bulk of Apollo development that accompanied it.  Neil Burns' writing is entirely ignorant of anything that happened in the space program after 1963.  That would almost work, except that the ghosts of astronauts in his book manage to be just as ignorant as he.

In short, he does what most other conspiracy authors do.  He picks some arbitrary point in the past and makes uninformed, denialist claims from that perspective.  "In the 1960s, computers filled entire rooms," and "In the 1960s, NASA had barely gotten a man into orbit," etc.

I'm preparing a Clavius page to respond to his essay.

Quote
I can't speak for anyone else here, but I am judging the book on the ridiculous claims made by the author.

Agreed.  Burns desperately wants someone to buy his book and praise him as the "entertaining" author he is in his own mind.  So he insinuates that a proper judgment of the book comes only if you buy it and read it, or at least circulate it around.  He seems completely oblivious to the notion of a claim being absurd on its face.

Quote
Not as rude as impugning the reputation of one of the most famous people in history though.

And shamelessly trying to ride his coattails to a semblance of success.  It's historically dishonest, unabashedly egotistical, and in my opinion it's immoral and distasteful.  No one really cares if you trample all over Mary Queen of Scots' reputation in your quest for personal glory.  She's long dead, and her legacy long since diluted by subsequent history.  But when you prey on the memory of a recently deceased man of no small achievement, and you do it in such a way as to rob him of his credit and assume it upon yourself, it's deplorable.

In my several years writing on this subject I have seen many people challenge the accomplishments of NASA, Neil Armstrong, Wernher von Braun, and the host of lesser-known colleagues.  I have seen them fumble through what they think is an historically and technically amenable argument in support of that challenge.  I have seen them defend their beliefs (and their commerce) with passion.  But not until now have I seen someone mount that challenge on such intentionally insubstantial grounds, via such puerile tactics, and to such an obviously self-aggrandizing end.

Quote
I am fairly confident in saying that it's "entertainment value" is probably lower than a snake's belly.

I think so.  As I said, even charitably disregarding the author's factuality claim and treating it as fiction, it alternates between tedious and pompous.  Its plot meanders pointlessly through the biography of an exceptionally boring man and its characters are all the same flat grey mush.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: smartcooky on September 17, 2014, 04:12:20 PM
Hmm. Is anyone else starting to smell a rat here?


I've been catching a whiff of stale old socks for a couple of weeks now!
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: skeptic_UK on September 17, 2014, 04:48:54 PM
Yes.  I think it's quite reprehensible for a grown man -- a chartered accountant and company director who says his honor is impeccable -- to pretend to be another person in order to shill his awful book.  I kind of expect that sort of childishness from other hoax claimants, but not from someone who claims to be well educated and prominent.

And thus it becomes even more apparent that he started this thread solely to drum up the appearance of support for his book.

Wait. Basically you're saying I must be this guy because I dare not join the rest of the group's opinion and savage a book I actually enjoyed reading?

Logical.  ::)
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Echnaton on September 17, 2014, 05:06:36 PM
No, it has more to do with the shared inability to differentiate fact from fiction or even the inclination to do so.  And the fact you're shilling his idiotic book for no apparently good reason.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: gillianren on September 17, 2014, 05:07:36 PM
Every bit as logical as your statement that you can't tell if the story (which is impossible in multiple detail and ludicrous in all the others) is true or not?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 17, 2014, 05:15:53 PM
Wait. Basically you're saying I must be this guy because I dare not join the rest of the group's opinion and savage a book I actually enjoyed reading?

Logical.  ::)

No, not for that reason.  Instead for the reason that you think and write exactly like Neil Burns, including Burns' penchant for entertainment over truth and the ham-fisted, unwarranted back-patting.  Every sock puppet thinks he is capable of appearing as a different person, but every hoax claimant has telltale unconscious idiosyncrasies.  In the same way all of your characters in your book sound exactly like an upper middle-class English gentlemen, regardless of who you name them to be, your sock puppets say exactly the same things in exactly the same way.  You vastly overestimate your talent at sounding like different people.

Skeptic_UK shows up out of the blue asking for good hoax books.  A discussion ensues, but in very short order Jockndoris arrives after a long absence to advertise he has a book for sale.  Skeptic_UK refuses to answer any questions about what other books he might have purchased, and without much effort latches entirely onto Haunted by Neil Armstrong, acting as the perfect "satisfied customer."

How dumb do you think we are?

Give it up, Mr. Burns.  You have earned considerable disapproval here -- every bit of it deserved.  Since sock puppetry is strictly forbidden, I doubt you'll be allowed to continue flogging your terrible book.  Expect the moderator to ban you forthwith.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Echnaton on September 17, 2014, 05:17:59 PM
Lets be clear here.  Skeptic_UK are you the same person as the one posting as Jockndoris?  Are you the author of Haunted by Neil Armstrong?  Do you have any association with Jockndoris or the author Neil Burns beyond this forum?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Zakalwe on September 17, 2014, 05:27:37 PM
Wait. Basically you're saying I must be this guy because I dare not join the rest of the group's opinion and savage a book I actually enjoyed reading?

Logical.  ::)

Yep, very logical.

6 days after you joined (requesting "good" books on the hoax) you get a post in your thread from Jockndoris- his first post in almost exactly 2 years. A minor love-in then ensues. More obvious than an obvious thing.
You can add subterfuge to the list of things that you're not very good at (along with being an author....)


No doubt LO will have logged the IPs (though you are probably using a proxy or WiFi hot-spot).
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: skeptic_UK on September 17, 2014, 05:33:23 PM
Every bit as logical as your statement that you can't tell if the story (which is impossible in multiple detail and ludicrous in all the others) is true or not?

I merely state it doesn't bother me if its true or not (how do you know he isn't visited by ghosts?) I still found it a fun read.

Wait. Basically you're saying I must be this guy because I dare not join the rest of the group's opinion and savage a book I actually enjoyed reading?

Logical.  ::)

No, not for that reason.  Instead for the reason that you think and write exactly like Neil Burns, including Burns' penchant for entertainment over truth and the ham-fisted patting yourself on the back.  Every sock puppet thinks he is capable of appearing as a different person, but every hoax claimant has telltale unconscious idiosyncrasies.  In the same way all of your characters in your book sound exactly like an upper middle-class English gentlemen, regardless of who you name them to be, your sock puppets say exactly the same things in exactly the same way.  You vastly overestimate your talent at sounding like different people.

Skeptic_UK shows up out of the blue asking for good hoax books.  A discussion ensues, but in very short order Jockndoris arrives after a long absence to advertise he has a book for sale.  Skeptic_UK refuses to answer any questions about what other books he might have purchased, and without much effort latches entirely onto Haunted by Neil Armstrong, acting as the perfect "satisfied customer."

How dumb do you think we are?

Give it up, Mr. Burns.  You have earned considerable disapproval here -- every bit of it deserved.  Since sock puppetry is strictly forbidden, I doubt you'll be allowed to continue flogging your terrible book.  Expect the moderator to ban you forthwith.

So you think the moderator will just take your word that I'm the same bloke as this guy and just ban me? Good to see you have a low opinion of yourself. I'm sure a simple checking of my IP will show we are indeed not the same person. As for how dumb I think you are? well you think I'm a 70-odd year old accountant. So I think that answers that one  ;) :-X

No, it has more to do with the shared inability to differentiate fact from fiction or even the inclination to do so.  And the fact you're shilling his idiotic book for no apparently good reason.

Saying I like something is 'shilling'? you seem to like that word by the way I've noticed it a fair few times on this thread.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: ka9q on September 17, 2014, 05:35:11 PM
C'mon guys, it doesn't really matter if skeptic_uk and jockndoris are the same person. Maybe they are, but what they each say can be laughed off merely on their own merits (or lack thereof).
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 17, 2014, 05:41:58 PM
I merely state it doesn't bother me if its true or not...

False.  Your words were, "It's impossible to really know if it's true or not."  On the contrary it is possible, and your indifference either way does not erase the facts.

Quote
how do you know he isn't visited by ghosts?

Because the "ghosts" speak and act just like you do, and reflect your particular ignorance of the facts.

Quote
I still found it a fun read.

Irrelevant.  You purport it to be a true story, and as such it is a fraud.

Quote
So you think the moderator will just take your word that I'm the same bloke as this guy and just ban me?

He won't need to take my word.

Quote
Good to see you have a low opinion of yourself.

I don't, and I can't imagine why you'd think I do.

Quote
Saying I like something is 'shilling'? you seem to like that word by the way I've noticed it a fair few times on this thread.

It fits what you do.  In your Jockndoris persona you've specifically tried to get your book into everyone's hands, even going so far as to inappropriately claim I'm helping you to do it.  In your Skeptic_UK persona you confirm all the good things your alter ego says about it.

I hope you market your juice a lot better than this.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: skeptic_UK on September 17, 2014, 05:42:30 PM
Lets be clear here.  Skeptic_UK are you the same person as the one posting as Jockndoris?  Are you the author of Haunted by Neil Armstrong?  Do you have any association with Jockndoris or the author Neil Burns beyond this forum?

I've answered this already. But don't let that stop you.

Wait. Basically you're saying I must be this guy because I dare not join the rest of the group's opinion and savage a book I actually enjoyed reading?

Logical.  ::)

Yep, very logical.

6 days after you joined (requesting "good" books on the hoax) you get a post in your thread from Jockndoris- his first post in almost exactly 2 years. A minor love-in then ensues. More obvious than an obvious thing.
You can add subterfuge to the list of things that you're not very good at (along with being an author....)


No doubt LO will have logged the IPs (though you are probably using a proxy or WiFi hot-spot).

'Minor love-in'? I asked for some books on the hoax as this seemed to be a place to discuss such things. I did assume it was a forum for people who believed in the hoax (I was clearly wrong but that's cool). Looking back at this thread, I think you'll find I thanked everyone for replying, and the only people who actually properly engaged with Jockndoris were in-fact you lot!
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 17, 2014, 05:44:58 PM
C'mon guys, it doesn't really matter if skeptic_uk and jockndoris are the same person. Maybe they are, but what they each say can be laughed off merely on their own merits (or lack thereof).

I did invite him to discuss his brilliant physics essay from 1963 proving Apollo would be impossible.  But obviously he's more interested in telling us over and over again what an entertaining author he is and how the book is so nicely done.  As long as his only mode of argument is going to be auto-mutual back-patting, that's all we have to to address.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 17, 2014, 05:49:38 PM
Looking back at this thread, I think you'll find I thanked everyone for replying...

You did so as a brush-off to the people trying to follow up on the answers.  You were asked what other books you considered and you didn't answer.  After asking your initial question, you were thereafter only interested in Neil Burns.

Quote
...and the only people who actually properly engaged with Jockndoris were in-fact you lot!

"Properly engaged?"  I don't know what that means.  All I can see is that you two showed up almost together and suddenly you're falling all over yourself praising Burns and defending him from what you say is inappropriate criticism.  And that defense sounds so very ominously like the things Burns himself would say in his own defense.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: gillianren on September 17, 2014, 06:17:44 PM
I merely state it doesn't bother me if its true or not (how do you know he isn't visited by ghosts?) I still found it a fun read.

I know he wasn't visited by the ghost of Neil Armstrong unless said ghost were participating in a massive leg-pull.  The story itself, without the ghosts entering into it, is impossible.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: skeptic_UK on September 17, 2014, 06:24:46 PM
Looking back at this thread, I think you'll find I thanked everyone for replying...

You did so as a brush-off to the people trying to follow up on the answers.  You were asked what other books you considered and you didn't answer.  After asking your initial question, you were thereafter only interested in Neil Burns.

Quote
...and the only people who actually properly engaged with Jockndoris were in-fact you lot!

"Properly engaged?"  I don't know what that means.  All I can see is that you two showed up almost together and suddenly you're falling all over yourself praising Burns and defending him from what you say is inappropriate criticism.  And that defense sounds so very ominously like the things Burns himself would say in his own defense.

You know full well what it means. You pages and pages of arguments you 2 seem to have had. At least it looks like you got a free book out of it...oh sorry. Your 'agent'. Maybe you 2 are the same person too? You have little clue if you honestly believe we're the same person. I am impressed how well you seem to know Burns from just a few of his posts.

'Almost together' is a bit wishy washy isn't it? How long a gap between our posts would be required for you to not think I'm actually a 70 year old accountant? You also keep referring to me as Burns even though I constantly say I am not. It's a little bit childish.

I am not defending him. I am defending my right to like something without having to defend myself from childish accusations and amateur sleuthing which is so far wide of the mark it's laughable. Less Sherlock Holmes and more Inspector Clouseau.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: beedarko on September 17, 2014, 06:40:57 PM
You also keep referring to me as Burns even though I constantly say I am not.

Let's not forget that Mr. Burns' very first post in this thread (http://www.apollohoax.net/forum/index.php?topic=637.msg20865#msg20865) (as JockNDoris) was inherently dishonest.  You He showed up and posted as if he were simply an interested third party, promoting some "book" he'd become familiar with.  It was only after he was pressed that he admitted to being its author.

To take the next step into the land of sockpuppetry doesn't seem like it'd be much of a stretch for such a person, does it mate?

 8)
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Echnaton on September 17, 2014, 06:42:13 PM
I am defending my right to like something without having to defend myself
So now folks are denying your "right" not to have to discuss what you post about in a discussion forum? Please. 
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 17, 2014, 06:51:18 PM
You know full well what it means.

No.  Please tell us what a "proper engagement" consists of and how you arrived at that meaning.

Quote
You have little clue if you honestly believe we're the same person.

Insults will not avail you.  Every sock puppet who has posted at this and similar forums -- and there have been a legion of them -- has shown an inflated opinion of his skill at pretending to be different people.  As I said, your inability to create distinct characters in your book merely underscores your inability to create distinct characters here.

Quote
I am impressed how well you seem to know Burns from just a few of his posts.

Glad to see I've impressed you.

Quote
'Almost together' is a bit wishy washy isn't it?

No.

Quote
How long a gap between our posts would be required for you to not think I'm actually a 70 year old accountant?

Straw man.  The six-days-after-two-years interval is only one element in a consilience of proof.  Besides, you have an established history on this forum of lying about your identity.  Why would we conclude you've suddenly reformed and seen the error of your ways?  Why wouldn't we suspect you're trying a trick you've tried before?

Quote
You also keep referring to me as Burns even though I constantly say I am not.

You can constantly say anything you want.  The consilience of evidence does not depend on your protestations.

Quote
I am not defending him.

Yes, you really are.  Before the sock-puppet issue arose, you couldn't praise him enough for writing a "nicely-presented," "entertaining" book, despite our rejection of its putative claims, and trying to take all the critics here to task for rejecting him based on what you surmised were improper grounds.

Quote
I am defending my right to like something without having to defend myself from childish accusations...

You may dismiss the accusation all you want, but the offense you are accused of committing is one of the more strictly enforced rules here.  I assure you it is not viewed as childish or trivial by the forum management.

No one is questioning your right to like a book.  The question is why its entertainment value is a relevant criterion to a book that purports to be fact but gets so much wrong.  Everyone here but you does care whether the claims made in the book are factual or not, and if your plan is to avoid that discussion assiduously in favor of warm-fuzzy affection for it, then you're quite definitely in the wrong forum.

Quote
...and amateur sleuthing which is so far wide of the mark it's laughable.

That's for you to prove to the moderator.  It's abundantly apparent that Skeptic_UK and Jockndoris are both Andrew Neil Barns, the author of Haunted by Neil Armstrong.  No real sleuthing is required -- your attempts to pretend to be a multitude of people are really very ham-fisted.  I don't care under what name you post.  But if the core of your argument is going to insist we treat your various noms du rete as separate people, you will not make headway here.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: frenat on September 17, 2014, 07:05:29 PM
well you think I'm a 70-odd year old accountant.

The only person here who's said anything about the author's age is you. 
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Echnaton on September 17, 2014, 07:17:42 PM
No, it has more to do with the shared inability to differentiate fact from fiction or even the inclination to do so.  And the fact you're shilling his idiotic book for no apparently good reason.

Saying I like something is 'shilling'? you seem to like that word by the way I've noticed it a fair few times on this thread.

You have done far more than casually say you like the book.  You have been supporting and promoting it for several pages now.  This is a discussion forum, and your unwillingness to discuss your reasons for liking it in any way that is indistinguishable from the author's self promotion, opens up avenues for further questioning. 
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: skeptic_UK on September 17, 2014, 07:45:04 PM
well you think I'm a 70-odd year old accountant.

The only person here who's said anything about the author's age is you.

Check post 183. Then sit there and contemplate how you aren't as clever as you thought you were  ;D
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: skeptic_UK on September 17, 2014, 08:03:12 PM
No, it has more to do with the shared inability to differentiate fact from fiction or even the inclination to do so.  And the fact you're shilling his idiotic book for no apparently good reason.

Saying I like something is 'shilling'? you seem to like that word by the way I've noticed it a fair few times on this thread.

You have done far more than casually say you like the book.  You have been supporting and promoting it for several pages now.  This is a discussion forum, and your unwillingness to discuss your reasons for liking it in any way that is indistinguishable from the author's self promotion, opens up avenues for further questioning.

No. If you checked my post history you'd see I made 1 post supporting his book. The rest are defending myself and my view made in that one post. Apparently that makes me him? shrug. You seem to see conspiracy everywhere. Which is ironic to say the least ;)
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 17, 2014, 08:09:13 PM
If you checked my post history you'd see I made 1 post supporting his book. The rest are defending myself and my view made in that one post.

A distinction without a difference.  Your posts are indistinguishable from those made by Jockndoris.

Quote
Apparently that makes me him? shrug.

Straw man.  A consilience of evidence already belabored makes you him.

Quote
You seem to see conspiracy everywhere.

No.  To see one in your case is not to see them everywhere.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 17, 2014, 08:10:33 PM
Then sit there and contemplate how you aren't as clever as you thought you were  ;D

Smugness will not avail you.  You aren't as good an author as you think you are.  You aren't a physicist of any sort.  And you certainly aren't as good an actor as you seem to believe.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 17, 2014, 08:16:45 PM
If you checked my post history you'd see I made 1 post supporting his book.

Or, rather...

Anyway. I've definitely loved reading some of the links and have ordered some books. For me, it doesn't really matter if Jocks book is fact or fiction, just that it covers a topic I love to read about...

I have to say I also ordered a copy of Mr Burns' book and have spent the last week slowly reading it. While it's certainly a very fantastical setting, it's impossible to really know if it's true or not. I found it a very good read. I think some people here are just pre-judging the book based on their own views on the author rather than the actual content.  ;)

For example the constant calling of it as a 'pamphlet' is rather rude really. Granted, It's not the longest book, but I still easily found it value for money.

The world map especially was very nicely done, and interesting to see the route he took around the world. Kudos to him for making it. I'm very tempted to order the 'full version' of the book as the chapter headings seem most intriguing.

I can understand why you might not believe it's true. But if it is or isn't doesn't take away from its entertainment value imho.

I merely state it doesn't bother me if its true or not (how do you know he isn't visited by ghosts?) I still found it a fun read.
...
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: frenat on September 17, 2014, 08:22:16 PM
well you think I'm a 70-odd year old accountant.

The only person here who's said anything about the author's age is you.

Check post 183. Then sit there and contemplate how you aren't as clever as you thought you were  ;D

I stand corrected.  How fortunate I am that you handled that with so much maturity. [/sarcasm]

Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: beedarko on September 17, 2014, 08:30:35 PM
You seem to see conspiracy everywhere.

I don't believe it's possible to conspire with oneself.

Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: skeptic_UK on September 17, 2014, 09:00:17 PM
Then sit there and contemplate how you aren't as clever as you thought you were  ;D

Smugness will not avail you.  You aren't as good an author as you think you are.  You aren't a physicist of any sort.  And you certainly aren't as good an actor as you seem to believe.

Well you caught me. I'm a Software Engineer not a Physicist.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: skeptic_UK on September 17, 2014, 09:05:58 PM
well you think I'm a 70-odd year old accountant.

The only person here who's said anything about the author's age is you.

Check post 183. Then sit there and contemplate how you aren't as clever as you thought you were  ;D

I stand corrected.  How fortunate I am that you handled that with so much maturity. [/sarcasm]

You're welcome.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: smartcooky on September 17, 2014, 10:40:21 PM
Methinks he doest protest too much!

No user found on an internet forum squirms, wriggles and protests their innocence more than a sock-puppet who has been rumbled!!
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: beedarko on September 17, 2014, 10:42:07 PM
Well you caught me. I'm a Software Engineer not a Physicist.

I think you're just another Brit with a severe case of America envy. 

Standard.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: gillianren on September 17, 2014, 11:08:42 PM
It simply doesn't matter if they're the same person or not.  What matters is that the "content" of the book is ludicrous, inaccurate, and flat-out impossible.  According to someone whose opinion I trust, it's badly written, too.  No evidence has been presented for the book's claims that is independently verifiable.  If a person who isn't the author enjoys reading it, that person is clearly lacking in critical judgement.  If they slowly enjoyed it over the course of a weekend, they're not a very good reader, either.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 17, 2014, 11:23:47 PM
Well you caught me. I'm a Software Engineer not a Physicist.

Well I could test you on that score too, if it were relevant.  What is relevant, however, is Neil Burns professed expertise in Quick Basic writing accounting programs -- "Some of those programs are still being used."   Nice try at creating a credible alter ego, but it's still too close.

You really are bad at this.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 18, 2014, 12:04:07 AM
It simply doesn't matter if they're the same person or not.

It doesn't as long as we can extend the discussion beyond, "Why are you picking on this guy?  I thought the book was really entertaining and nicely done."  Having a sock puppet validate your work for the same reasons you think it's significant validates that criterion.  Conveying the impression that's what many people want to talk about when you're the "many people" is fundamentally dishonest.

Quote
What matters is that the "content" of the book is ludicrous, inaccurate, and flat-out impossible.

Oh, but it's "entertaining."  "Quite a good read."

We know Jockndoris is Neil Burns, the author.  After lying about it for a while, he came clean.  I've been trying to have a discussion about the factual correctness of the work, but it appears its author (whether that's also Skeptic_UK or not) wants to adopt a warm-fuzzy love-fest approach.  That's not what we do here.

Quote
No evidence has been presented for the book's claims that is independently verifiable.

But it's "entertaining."  "A good read."  Whether under the ultimately redeemed Jockndoris persona or ostensibly under his new fan persona, none of the advocates of this book are willing to discuss it as putative fact.  The book itself says that if you don't believe in ghosts, keep passing it around until you find someone who does.  The author has no intention of defending its veracity.  He only wants positive feedback from people predisposed to believe it.

If he doesn't understand why I and others find that distasteful and immoral, then we have insufficient common ground.

Quote
If a person who isn't the author enjoys reading it, that person is clearly lacking in critical judgement.

But that person thinks it's "entertaining;" "a good read."  And he doesn't understand why we insist on evaluating it according to criteria he doesn't feel matter.  It's that utter disregard for truth, suspiciously shared by two recently active posters, that raise questions of identity.  And the questions of identity drive questions of whether the present criticism is appropriate.  Are those questions relevant?  Only as far as the argument insists that we have to consider the two personas to be independent agents supporting each other.

Quote
If they slowly enjoyed it over the course of a weekend, they're not a very good reader, either.

Not weekend -- a week.  In my more literary moods I could devour a 400-page novel in three days.  If it takes someone a week to read 60 folio pages, I have to doubt his reading comprehension.  Or his sincerity; it may be that someone wants us to think this book is worth savoring page by page like that.  It really isn't.  I don't want hopelessly pixelated travelogue diagrams.  I don't want paragraphs of text describing how some maid had folded his clothes.  I don't want page after page of self-indulgent dreck.  None of that is interesting or entertaining.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: gillianren on September 18, 2014, 01:24:15 AM
Heck, if I didn't have anything else to do (like parenting, for example!), I could read a 400-page novel in a day.  I think I still managed Skin Game that quickly, and it's longer.  Of course, my D&D group missed that day, so I had time out of the house without the baby to get it done in.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: skeptic_UK on September 18, 2014, 04:48:08 AM
If they slowly enjoyed it over the course of a weekend, they're not a very good reader, either.

So you're insulting my literacy skills? That's grown up isn't it. You always know when someone's argument is thin when they start to attack you personally.

Well you caught me. I'm a Software Engineer not a Physicist.

Well I could test you on that score too, if it were relevant.  What is relevant, however, is Neil Burns professed expertise in Quick Basic writing accounting programs -- "Some of those programs are still being used."   Nice try at creating a credible alter ego, but it's still too close.

You really are bad at this.

I actually almost became an Accountant too. I guess I should have foreseen this pointless argument and done something else at University. Not sure how whatever Neil Burns does is relevant to who I am but you seem intent on mapping everything I post onto his life no matter how unlikely it seems to fit?

Methinks he doest protest too much!

No user found on an internet forum squirms, wriggles and protests their innocence more than a sock-puppet who has been rumbled!!

Excuse me for not liking the fact a bunch of random people call me a liar for no other reason that I chose to disagree with them? It's sort of cute how you all defend each other though. Mob mentality. 1 guy mentions I'm a sockpuppet and you all jump in with the same disregard for minor things like, I don't know... proof?. You even leave your manners at the door in the rush to judge.

Well you caught me. I'm a Software Engineer not a Physicist.

I think you're just another Brit with a severe case of America envy. 

Standard.


I'm not even sure what that means? or how the hell you got there from the fact I posted mentioning how I liked a random book. In fact, why even mention nationalities at all?

Ego much? While we're at it please explain what I'm suppose to be envious of?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Echnaton on September 18, 2014, 05:07:38 AM
It simply doesn't matter if they're the same person or not. 

Ultimately of course it does not, as the book will wind up in the dustbin. Probably mostly remembered or evidenced by this discussion, as long as it remains available. 

What is evident though is that the author's and skeptic_uk's styles are remarkably similar in the backhanded way of promoting something purported to be a factual account, yet each of them knows is fully made up and of no intellectual value.  They are so similar that it would be difficult to determine if they exchanged accounts.  And really, why would anyone expect an author who makes up such obvious junk to have any compunction about using sock puppets to promote himself.  Given all this, the best conclusion is that they are the same person.  So skeptic_UK if you are truly not Neil Burns, you are cooperating with him in such a way that the difference is trivial.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Echnaton on September 18, 2014, 05:14:50 AM
no other reason that I chose to disagree with them?

Once again you miss the point.  The issue here is your uncritical promotion of a trash pamphlet in which the author attempts to undermine a significant accomplishment of mankind. One that many of my neighbors participated in.  People  you and he are inferring were dupes on the basis of the testimony of a ghost.    If you want to discuss the book, then by all means do so, but whining about your mistreatment is getting tedious and only reinforces the belief that you are a sock puppet.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: skeptic_UK on September 18, 2014, 05:16:09 AM
It simply doesn't matter if they're the same person or not. 

Ultimately of course it does not, as the book will wind up in the dustbin. Probably mostly remembered or evidenced by this discussion, as long as it remains available. 

What is evident though is that the author's and skeptic_uk's styles are remarkably similar in the backhanded way of promoting something purported to be a factual account, yet each of them knows is fully made up and of no intellectual value.  They are so similar that it would be difficult to determine if they exchanged accounts.  And really, why would anyone expect an author who makes up such obvious junk to have any compunction about using sock puppets to promote himself.  Given all this, the best conclusion is that they are the same person.  So skeptic_UK if you are truly not Neil Burns, you are cooperating with him in such a way that the difference is trivial.

So now I COULD be someone else. Progress at least.

I wanted to be complimentary about the book as I enjoyed it. I don't see what's wrong with that? have you never gone out of your way to give a product or person a nice review when you liked what you bought?

I hope you don't go around Amazon posting the 'OMG HE'S A SOCKPUPPET BURN HIM' shtick to every review that's overly positive about a product you disliked.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: smartcooky on September 18, 2014, 05:50:21 AM
So you're insulting my literacy skills? That's grown up isn't it. You always know when someone's argument is thin when they start to attack you personally.
No one is insulting your literacy, its your comprehension that is in question. You're so busy playing the victim role, and being a sockpuppet apologist for your alter-ego, you fail to understand that you are being questioned on the factual accuracy of the book. No-one here gives a fat rats arse whether or not you found it "entertaining" or thought it was "a good read".

I actually almost became an Accountant too.
Tell it to someone who cares.

Excuse me for not liking the fact a bunch of random people call me a liar for no other reason that I chose to disagree with them?
No one is calling you a liar because you choose to disagree with them. You are being called a liar because you are a liar. You have been rumbled as the sockpuppet of Neil Burns, and are denying it.   

It's sort of cute how you all defend each other though. Mob mentality. 1 guy mentions I'm a sockpuppet and you all jump in with the same disregard for minor things like, I don't know... proof?. You even leave your manners at the door in the rush to judge.
One guy mentioned it perhaps, but most of us tumbled to it on August 28 when you posted as your  JocknDoris persona about your book (which you actually didn't fess up to writing) less than 48 hours after you, under your skeptic_UK persona, opened the thread.

You must think we came down in the last shower of rain. The fact is that many of the users here have dealt with the masters of sock-puppetry, such as the late Patrick "of a thousand names" Tekeli. You're just an amateur at this game; a lightweight, and not a very good one at that!
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Echnaton on September 18, 2014, 05:53:47 AM
I wanted to be complimentary about the book as I enjoyed it.

Yes you've said that.  Then started to whine about how we discussed and dismissed your reasons for enjoying it.  You need no approval from us, but we are here to discuss Apollo and Apollo hoax theories, theorists, believers and assorted uncritical acceptance of the like.  Since you voluntarily came here and entered your preference and reasons into the discussion, they have been a topic of discussion. 

Quote
So now I COULD be someone else. Progress at least.
If you think so.  But no one ever suggested you are not who you are.  We simply think you maintain multiple logins on this forum. 

Quote
I hope you
Its good to live in hope, isn't it.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Jason Thompson on September 18, 2014, 08:05:14 AM
skeptic_UK, I don't give a damn if you're the same person as jockndoris or not. you could be the queen of sheba for all I care. The point that you are so desperately avoiding is that your statement that 'it is impossible to know if it is true or not' is manifestly untrue.

Even leaving aside the question of belief in ghosts, this forum is populated by people who are professional aerospace engineers, people who have actually met neil Armstrong in non-ghost form, and people who are sufficiently familiar with the field to know that the statements made in the book do not in the least tally with any actual facts regarding either aerospace or the person of Neil Armstrong. This has been laid out in detail over several pages on this thread, and you insist on ignoring it. Why?

If you are not in fact another sock puppet, why do you not deal with the substance of those arguments rather than (or even in addition to) wasting everyone's time complaining about your perceived mistreatement?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: skeptic_UK on September 18, 2014, 09:04:38 AM
skeptic_UK, I don't give a damn if you're the same person as jockndoris or not. you could be the queen of sheba for all I care. The point that you are so desperately avoiding is that your statement that 'it is impossible to know if it is true or not' is manifestly untrue.

Even leaving aside the question of belief in ghosts, this forum is populated by people who are professional aerospace engineers, people who have actually met neil Armstrong in non-ghost form, and people who are sufficiently familiar with the field to know that the statements made in the book do not in the least tally with any actual facts regarding either aerospace or the person of Neil Armstrong. This has been laid out in detail over several pages on this thread, and you insist on ignoring it. Why?

If you are not in fact another sock puppet, why do you not deal with the substance of those arguments rather than (or even in addition to) wasting everyone's time complaining about your perceived mistreatement?

Because I don't care? If it bothers you then fair enough. But why should I be bothered by something I don't care about just to satisfy you?

I found the book entertaining. Its factualness is completely irrelevant to that. Not sure how the fact you're a professional aerospace engineer has anything to do with what books or categories I chose to like or believe in.

A number of horror films claim to be 'based on fact'. Do you walk out of the movie the moment that pops up moaning to others that it couldn't possibly be true and they are all sockpuppets to the director?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: skeptic_UK on September 18, 2014, 09:10:56 AM
I wanted to be complimentary about the book as I enjoyed it.

Yes you've said that.  Then started to whine about how we discussed and dismissed your reasons for enjoying it.  You need no approval from us, but we are here to discuss Apollo and Apollo hoax theories, theorists, believers and assorted uncritical acceptance of the like.  Since you voluntarily came here and entered your preference and reasons into the discussion, they have been a topic of discussion. 

Quote
So now I COULD be someone else. Progress at least.
If you think so.  But no one ever suggested you are not who you are.  We simply think you maintain multiple logins on this forum. 

Quote
I hope you
Its good to live in hope, isn't it.

My gripe is that you claim I couldn't possibly enjoy it, therefore (by some crappy logic) determined I am in fact the author of the book. You then keep repeating this claim like some sort of school child thinking if it's repeated enough times it magically becomes fact.

When I understandably call this out it's then claimed I must be guilty because I'm complaining about it? yet again childish school yard logic.

Even someone with basic IT knowledge would know how easy it is to check the IPs of different posters and find that I only have 1 login. You seem to completely ignore that fact purely because it just doesn't measure up to your pre-judged opinion. You're starting to sound like the people this forum so loves to complain about.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: twik on September 18, 2014, 09:31:46 AM
If your only complaint is that you personally enjoyed the book (with its stories of inaccurate ghosts and golfing accountants), and other people didn't, then I wonder why *you* keep harping on it. Have you never before encountered people who disliked books you enjoyed? Do you always take personal umbrage if they do?

Because really, if the wacky story of an accountant who golfs with Neil Armstrong on the day he's supposed to be walking on the Moon, because "it's best to hide in plain sight" is your idea of a good read, I suspect that there are a lot of people who disagree with your general taste in literature.

Anyway, if your opinion is you don't know whether it's true or not, we are pretty sure it's not, and we have reasons to believe so. In which case, unless you have any evidence that would move us from that position, we'll leave you to enjoy interminable stories of improbable golf games.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Andromeda on September 18, 2014, 09:38:12 AM
Because I don't care? If it bothers you then fair enough. But why should I be bothered by something I don't care about just to satisfy you?

Because that is part of the forum rules.


Quote
I found the book entertaining. Its factualness is completely irrelevant to that. Not sure how the fact you're a professional aerospace engineer has anything to do with what books or categories I chose to like or believe in.

You asked for recommendations for "good" books.  You got lots of lovely answers.  Why come on a forum like this if you are not willing to engage with people?  You are talking about an area of professional expertise of several members here and completely pooh-poohing it - that is why it matters.  I find your assertion that you thought this forum was for hoax believers a bit odd - why would anyone join a forum and start posting without having a look around first?


Quote
A number of horror films claim to be 'based on fact'. Do you walk out of the movie the moment that pops up moaning to others that it couldn't possibly be true and they are all sockpuppets to the director?

Apart from the fact that Jason does not like horror films... such films do not often besmirch the reputation of (thousands of) people living and dead, several of whom are on this forum or well known to the people on it.  When it does happen, the film-makers are roundly criticised.

Furthermore, we are talking about very basic fact.  If you saw a film which proported to be factual but had Napoleon being Italian, would you not pick that hole in it?  Indeed, there are miriad internet fora and books which are based around picking up such errors.  The basic errors in the book we are discussing here are an order of magnitude greater than my Napoleon example, yet the author expects it to be taken seriously as an entirely non-fictional work (unlike horror films).

Interestingly, as an aside, the book does not appear able to be purchased anywhere online, so I am very curious as to where you got it from if you are not the author himself.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Echnaton on September 18, 2014, 09:45:52 AM
My gripe is that you claim I couldn't possibly enjoy it

Straw man. 

In fact I don't care if you enjoyed it.  But in posting your opinion, the thinking behind your enjoyment has become a topic of discussion.  Much like the thoughts in JayUtah's review.  Only his were well thought out and supported.     

Quote
Even someone with basic IT knowledge would know how easy it is to check the IPs of different posters

My knowledge of IT is sufficient to know that with minimal skill anyone can have access to different IPs from the same location.  So this protest is not particularly convincing.  At any rate, I have made my thoughts on your personhood clear.  So unless the issue takes another turn that needs addressing, I'll stick to discussing other topics. 

In that connection, is there any reason you can offer why we should hold your review of the book in any regard?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Echnaton on September 18, 2014, 10:01:27 AM
A number of horror films claim to be 'based on fact'. Do you walk out of the movie the moment that pops up

I am willing to give fiction wide latitude in employing deceptive techniques to achieve literary or entertainment goals.  What I do not watch is "documentaries" or "reality" shows like ghost hunting shows that purport to be true and are filmed in a live action style, while the manufacturers of the product hide from direct questioning.  Neil Burns book is just this kind of a product.  The critique and scorn given on this forum is quite appropriate.

This raises the question, do you think Haunted by Neil Armstrong is just fiction dressed up as reality, like your hypothetical horror film? 
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: twik on September 18, 2014, 10:10:36 AM
I am willing to give fiction wide latitude in employing deceptive techniques to achieve literary or entertainment goals.  What I do not watch is "documentaries" or "reality" shows like ghost hunting shows that purport to be true and are filmed in a live action style, while the manufacturers of the product hide from direct questioning. 

Yes. There is a difference between "Fargo" and "Ghost Hunters".
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: RAF on September 18, 2014, 10:23:24 AM
... I also ordered a copy of Mr Burns' book....

Ok...who else ordered this "book"? :D


Quote
...it's impossible to really know if it's true or not.

That you believe it "impossible" is not relevant.

 
Quote
I think some people here are just pre-judging the book based on their own views on the author rather than the actual content.  ;)

This is not the truth...posters here have simply torn apart an assortment of garbage ideas....the actual content of the book.


Quote
The world map especially was very nicely done, and interesting to see the route he took around the world. Kudos to him for making it.

I don't see how this is relevant to any discussion of Apollo, so why did you post it?


Quote
I can understand why you might not believe it's true.

Belief has nothing to do with it. There is simply no credible evidence for anything said in the book re. Apollo/Armstrong.


 
Quote
But if it is or isn't doesn't take away from its entertainment value imho.


I'll paraphrase what I've previously posted....there is nothing "entertaining" about reading a book filled with willful, ignorant lies.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Echnaton on September 18, 2014, 10:28:18 AM
I am willing to give fiction wide latitude in employing deceptive techniques to achieve literary or entertainment goals.  What I do not watch is "documentaries" or "reality" shows like ghost hunting shows that purport to be true and are filmed in a live action style, while the manufacturers of the product hide from direct questioning. 

Yes. There is a difference between "Fargo" and "Ghost Hunters".

Or even Ghost and Ghost Hunters.  Ghost (1990) that is.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: skeptic_UK on September 18, 2014, 10:31:46 AM
Because I don't care? If it bothers you then fair enough. But why should I be bothered by something I don't care about just to satisfy you?

Because that is part of the forum rules.

The forum rules state that I must be bothered about every forum users opinion on a random book that's linked? I find that highly unlikely.

Quote
Interestingly, as an aside, the book does not appear able to be purchased anywhere online, so I am very curious as to where you got it from if you are not the author himself.

His website. Which ANOTHER user (I believe JayUtah) posted (before you pick on me for 'shilling' his website). It's also one of the top links when you google his user-name. It was discussed at length on this very thread I believe.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: RAF on September 18, 2014, 10:38:36 AM
Not sure how the fact you're a professional aerospace engineer has anything to do with what books or categories I chose to like or believe in.

Well, guess what?...this is a discussion forum, and if you profess to like/believe something so irrational as this garbage book, some here might be curious as to why you like/believe it.

...and they will expect an answer, so get over it, already.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Andromeda on September 18, 2014, 10:46:04 AM
Don't shout at me.  I don't deserve your rudeness.

Why have you ignored the substance of my post?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: RAF on September 18, 2014, 10:47:47 AM
...why should I be bothered by something I don't care about just to satisfy you?

See my previous post...this is a discussion board, and if you don't want to participate, don't.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: skeptic_UK on September 18, 2014, 11:02:12 AM
Don't shout at me.  I don't deserve your rudeness.

Why have you ignored the substance of my post?

You're the 2nd poster who's tried to look clever by trying to somehow 'catch me out' by pointing out something I've posted to proof I'm apparently Jockndoris. Excuse me for finding that a little annoying. Don't get all defensive when I show you up in return.

I accept your apology for insinuating what you did even though you seem to have forgotten to type it out  :-*

As for the substance of your post I'm not sure what the point of it is? I indeed asked for some recommendations. Which you kindly all gave. Not sure why you find it so weird that I didn't follow every single one?

You also seem to be criticising ME for the contents of SOMEONE ELSE'S BOOK. Not sure why I should be an apologist for Jockndoris/Neil Burns just because I bought his book.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: skeptic_UK on September 18, 2014, 11:04:42 AM
...why should I be bothered by something I don't care about just to satisfy you?

See my previous post...this is a discussion board, and if you don't want to participate, don't.

A discussion is not repeatedly claiming I'm a liar, Illiterate, and someone else in disguise, repeatedly and childishly no matter how many times I state otherwise. You're all attacking me and then feigning 'shock and disgust' when I call you all out on it.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 18, 2014, 11:08:54 AM
I found the book entertaining.

Fine, but this forum is not a literary society.  If you wish to praise the book for its supposed literary value and ignore its allegations of fact, take your opinion elsewhere.

Quote
Its factualness is completely irrelevant to that.

The factual accuracy of its claims regarding U.S. space exploration is all we care about here.  If you are not here to discuss that, then you're in the wrong forum.  We have endured quite sufficient discussion on the supposed merits and faults of the book on grounds other than its allegations of fact.  If you are simply going to repeat over and over than you like the book, consider your opinion on that point sufficiently tendered for the time being and reconsider belaboring it.

Quote
Not sure how the fact you're a professional aerospace engineer has anything to do with what books or categories I chose to like or believe in.

It has do to with what books you're allowed to advocate on this forum, for what reason, and upon what grounds.

A book that claims to report facts about Apollo and its participants is admissible for that reason only.  We don't care about "nicely done" maps of the author's world travels.  We don't care about effluent praise for its ability to entertain you.

The book alleges that the Apollo missions were a "military hoax," and subsequent discussion confirms that is is an allegation of historical fact, not some literary device.  In support of that claim it offers two forms of proof.  One is alleged posthumous testimony from Neil Armstrong, which we can reject summarily for lack of foundation.  Out of an abundance of charity, we can also analyze the content of that testimony irrespective of its claim to have been supernaturally delivered.  That analysis, coming from aerospace professionals familiar with the persons and procedures alluded to in the testimony, is sufficiently probative and affirms the conclusion that the Armstrong testimony is not credible.

The other proffered form of proof is an essay purporting to be a learned treatise on the feasibility of manned space flight.  It does not claim in any way to depend upon supernatural factors.  Instead it purports to be a correct and well-informed discussion from a suitably qualified writer on the nature of space flight and the likelihood of its being completed as history advertises it was.  This evidence is eminently justiciable by aerospace professionals.  In private correspondence its author reaffirms it as proof of his claim that a manned lunar landing in 1969 was impossible for reasons having nothing to do with his supernatural claims.

As far as this forum is concerned, only three pages of the book merit discussion here.  The rest is literary criticism that belongs elsewhere.

Quote
A number of horror films claim to be 'based on fact'.

Apples and oranges.

Fiction "based on fact" generally doesn't affect the world outside its small setting.  Especially it doesn't challenge the overall veracity of well documented world events.  As such the claim can be made credibly, often only for marketing purposes, that a story is based on fact.  This book claims that it is fact, and purports to overturn a widely-accepted world event participated in by hundreds of thousands of people.  Not only overturn it, but effectively to call those many thousands of participants liars and frauds.

And yes, when fiction "based on fact" runs sufficiently afoul of verifiable fact, it does receive the criticism it merits.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 18, 2014, 11:09:34 AM
A discussion is not repeatedly claiming I'm a liar, Illiterate, and someone else in disguise, repeatedly and childishly no matter how many times I state otherwise. You're all attacking me and then feigning 'shock and disgust' when I call you all out on it.

Why are you in this forum?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: gillianren on September 18, 2014, 11:13:13 AM
Based on the length of the item in question, you would have to have poor reading skills to spend any length of time at it.  That's not an insult; that's a statement of fact.

Why do we care if it's true or not?  Here's a better question.  Why don't you?  Why doesn't it bother you that someone is attempting to make money on lies?  Not fiction--lies.  His story is impossible whether you believe in ghosts or not.  Too much of the information that is covered in it is not credible.  The golfing story has been explained to be impossible several ways.  That doesn't bother you?  It doesn't bother you that someone is maligning one of the greatest accomplishments in human history--and not doing a credible job at it?  Ye Gods, the "golfing in a tournament while they were supposed to be on the Moon" is the dumbest hoax claim I've ever heard, and I've heard some doozies.  But it doesn't bother you?  Why not?  Do you not care about educating yourself?  Do you not care about having the basic human decency to acknowledge someone's accomplishments instead of lying and saying their ghost told you things?  A ghost that, again, couldn't even get the age of the person it's supposed to have been of right?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Andromeda on September 18, 2014, 11:17:11 AM
Don't shout at me.  I don't deserve your rudeness.

Why have you ignored the substance of my post?

You're the 2nd poster who's tried to look clever by trying to somehow 'catch me out' by pointing out something I've posted to proof I'm apparently Jockndoris. Excuse me for finding that a little annoying. Don't get all defensive when I show you up in return.

I accept your apology for insinuating what you did even though you seem to have forgotten to type it out  :-*

As for the substance of your post I'm not sure what the point of it is? I indeed asked for some recommendations. Which you kindly all gave. Not sure why you find it so weird that I didn't follow every single one?

You also seem to be criticising ME for the contents of SOMEONE ELSE'S BOOK. Not sure why I should be an apologist for Jockndoris/Neil Burns just because I bought his book.

I don't need to "try" to "look" clever, no need for insults.  I have not insulted you at all, so why do you think it acceptable to insult me?  Wasn't it you who said an ad hominem attack shows a failure of argument?

I did not insult you, so I have nothing to apologise for.  The kissy face is childish behaviour, IMO.

I suggest you read my earlier post again, in which I responded to the points you made.

I havent actually criticised you for liking this book at all.  I responded politely and clearly to the questions you asked and now you are all upset and shouting at me.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 18, 2014, 11:18:36 AM
My gripe is that you claim I couldn't possibly enjoy it, therefore (by some crappy logic) determined I am in fact the author of the book.

No.  The salient proposition is not that you enjoyed it, but the specific reasons given for why (e.g., the "nicely done" map -- which isn't nicely done at all, but rather clearly the work of someone with little proficiency.)  Burns' habit of vaunting things that are objectively unworthy of it is his hallmark.

Quote
Even someone with basic IT knowledge would know how easy it is to check the IPs of different posters and find that I only have 1 login.

I have much more than basic IT knowledge, and I can attest to how trivially easy it is to make your web traffic appear to come from some other IP address.  Why are you so adamant that we verify your separate identity via IP addressing?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 18, 2014, 11:21:56 AM
The forum rules state that I must be bothered about every forum users opinion on a random book that's linked? I find that highly unlikely.

The forum rules state what are and are not acceptable topics of discussion in this forum.  Allegations of fact regarding the Apollo missions are admissible.  Other topics are not.  Hence how much you liked this book on grounds having nothing to do with its factual accuracy is not an acceptable topic of discussion here.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Andromeda on September 18, 2014, 11:23:18 AM
I didn't want to give the author pageclicks, FTR.  It says something that this book (and the expanded version, oh wow) are only available from him directly.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Jason Thompson on September 18, 2014, 11:23:52 AM
Because I don't care?

Then you're on the wrong forum. And you still skirt the main issue, which is that you made a demonstrably wrong statement about the book. It is absolutely NOT impossible to tell if it is true or not. Will you acknowledge that, or will you continue to maintain your position in the face of reality?

Quote
Not sure how the fact you're a professional aerospace engineer has anything to do with what books or categories I chose to like or believe in.

I never said I was an aerospace engineer.

Quote
A number of horror films claim to be 'based on fact'. Do you walk out of the movie the moment that pops up moaning to others that it couldn't possibly be true and they are all sockpuppets to the director?

Burns's book is not claiming to be 'based on fact', it is claiming to be a factual account. If I went to a movie that claimed to be factual and was laden with as many untrue claims and irrelevancies as this book is, I would indeed devote a good deal of time to making sure people knew it was no factual account.

I also, incidentally, have never claimed you were a sockpuppet. Try and keep the individual members of this forum and their arguments clear in your head. Contrary to your claim, we are not all saying the same thing.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Jason Thompson on September 18, 2014, 11:26:41 AM
I accept your apology for insinuating what you did even though you seem to have forgotten to type it out  :-*

Leave that out of the discussion. Andromeda has nothing to apologise to you for.

Quote
I indeed asked for some recommendations. Which you kindly all gave. Not sure why you find it so weird that I didn't follow every single one?

No-one finds it weird that you did not follow every single one. What we find weird is that you appear to have only followed one and completely ignored every other one. Your gushing praise for the book is unconvincing, to say the least. You have already been asked on this thread which other books you actually sought out and read from the recommendations you were given. Do you ever plan to answer that question?

And I'll ask you again, do you still maintain it is impossible to know if it is true or not?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 18, 2014, 11:32:15 AM
So you're insulting my literacy skills?

No, pointing out that a claim of taking a week to read a book that can be easily read in a single one-hour sitting is an anomalous enough story to warrant suspicion.  You have expended considerable bluster trying to make it seem as if everyone is insulting you.  Instead, would you simply be so kind as to explain why it took you a week to read 60 small pages in large type?

Quote
I actually almost became an Accountant too. I guess I should have foreseen this pointless argument and done something else at University. Not sure how whatever Neil Burns does is relevant to who I am but you seem intent on mapping everything I post onto his life no matter how unlikely it seems to fit?

I'm confident letting the readers judge likelihood for themselves.  Burns claims to be an accountant who writes computer programs.  You claim to write computer programs but are also drawn to accounting.  Both of you express an interest in space exploration.  Both seem to have latched upon this book as a "good read."  Burns is obsessed with whether I find the book "entertaining" regardless of its factual claims, and strangely enough that's all you want to talk about too -- its entertainment potential.

Quote
Excuse me for not liking the fact a bunch of random people call me a liar for no other reason that I chose to disagree with them?

That's not the reason.  The reason is that you are ostensibly two people arguing in exactly the same way according to exactly the same peculiar style of argumentation over the same obscure book, to the exclusion of nearly every other topic.  No one is ostracized here for simple disagreement.  The forum exists for no other reason than to discuss and debate the relevant points upon which we disagree.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 18, 2014, 11:55:56 AM
A discussion is not repeatedly claiming I'm a liar, Illiterate, and someone else in disguise, repeatedly and childishly no matter how many times I state otherwise. You're all attacking me and then feigning 'shock and disgust' when I call you all out on it.

Go back and read the first few pages of this thread where you were given a warm welcome, some friendly advice, references to materials you asked for -- even though we disagree with them -- and a promise for further help.  Can you explain why, after reading those initial posts, you would think that the accuracy and historical validity of books on this subject would not be the principal topic of discussion?

Things deteriorated only when your behavior became suspicious, for the reasons given.  Rather than address those reasons, you respond only with rapidly increasing indignation and by digging in your heels over your right to advocate in this forum any way you feel like it.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: RAF on September 18, 2014, 12:11:31 PM
A discussion is not repeatedly claiming I'm a liar, Illiterate, and someone else in disguise, repeatedly and childishly no matter how many times I state otherwise. You're all attacking me and then feigning 'shock and disgust' when I call you all out on it.

How am I, personally, attacking you?

...all I'm asking is for some reasoning as to why you would believe the ideas in this book, and that is not an attack.

What other excuses do you have for not answering our questions??

...but be aware...we've heard them all...
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: twik on September 18, 2014, 01:16:32 PM
Excuse me for not liking the fact a bunch of random people call me a liar for no other reason that I chose to disagree with them?

But, well, it's not *impossible* is it? And it's such an entertaining story, to imagine an author creating a sock puppet to shill his book that would linger unsold otherwise.

If you don't like it, perhaps you and Jock (assuming you are two different people) would remember that those in NASA and the aerospace industry don't like having random people call them liars with no evidence either.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 18, 2014, 02:36:23 PM
And it's such an entertaining story, to imagine an author creating a sock puppet to shill his book that would linger unsold otherwise.

Indeed, given this poster's indifference to the truth, why should he suddenly care whether stories told about him are true?  Especially if we can make them so very entertaining.  My posts are nicely done, don't you think?  Maybe Skeptic_UK should take a week to read each one.  I guess it's only sometimes okay to drag real people's reputations through the mud for entertainment value!

(Lest Skeptic_UK continue his flurry of indignance, I'll emphasize that all the foregoing is merely illustrative sarcasm and not meant to be taken literally.)

Quote
[T]hose in NASA and the aerospace industry don't like having random people call them liars with no evidence either.

But the U.S. aerospace industry is so very far away from Worcestershire, and populated by faceless people who don't "really" exist.  What harm is there in telling a little ghost story at their expense?

That depends on who you talk to.  I think most people who encounter this book are simply going to laugh at it and ignore it harmlessly.  But if you should happen upon one of the people at whose expense the story is told, and you decide to praise and advocate the book, you can't be surprised by what you think is a disproportionate reaction, nor can you write off any criticism as overly sensitive.

If your garden club likes the book, so be it.  But if you wander into a forum filled with relevant professionals, advocate a book that calls them liars, tell them you're not interested in whether its true -- asserting that no one could determine that:  then you're in for a whole can of whoop-fanny.  And you'd deserve every bit of it.

It's not as if there's no evidence.  The primary evidence is just absurd on its face.  If someone says "The ghost of Pitt the Younger came to me while I was at the laundromat and told me that Otto von Bismarck was a cross-dresser," I really wouldn't care -- even if he swore up and down that it's true.  The claim is, on its face, not credible or consequential.  Few people would likely believe it or treat it as evidence, or care about its implications for history.

But in addition to handwaving about ghosts, Neil Burns also insinuates he has an understanding of space science and engineering superior to those of us here.  From that alleged expertise he can tell us that Apollo in 1969 was impossible.  That is a testable claim, and it's one made in smug (yet cowardly) defiance of the audience here.

We can dismiss golf entirely, as well as accountancy and world travel.  We can dismiss entertainment value as similarly irrelevant.  Ghosts are not considered proof here, so that falls away too.  I've said my piece about whether I think the book has literary appeal.  My opinion is just as acceptable as Skeptic_UK's, and both are -- strictly speaking -- not relevant discussion in this forum.  Hence they both get set aside.

Boiled down to its relevant essence, the book makes testable science and engineering propositions -- lately affirmed by the author -- that Burns says help prove his belief in a hoax.  He has stepped into aerospace engineering territory, insulted its practitioners' competence, accused them of lying about their most laudable achievement, and has now apparently run off back to his counting-house to maintain the delusion that he can continue reaping profits by doing so, without due consequence.  If Skeptic_UK wants to defend that practice, let him try.  If he wants to take up the mantle and argue the relevant sciences, let him try that too.

But no, I really don't feel like tolerating libelous claims against my profession simply because they are, to some people, "entertaining."  And Skeptic_UK apparently wouldn't tolerate it either.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: smartcooky on September 18, 2014, 03:56:58 PM
skeptic_UK
If you make demonstrably wrong statements about a subject, it is just possible that you misunderstand or don't understand that subject. Fair enough.

However if, after having your incorrectness fully explained to you by numerous people who are recognised experts in the aforementioned subject, and who DO understand it, you continue to maintain your position in the face of reality, then that makes you a liar!!!
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 18, 2014, 10:59:12 PM
Here is my response to Burn's alleged physics thesis, from pp. 11-13 of Haunted by Neil Armstrong.

http://www.clavius.org/bibburnsthesis.html

None of these claims rests on a supernatural premise.  It is his recollection of a paper he wrote in 1963 for a physics degree, and which he still stands by as evidence the Moon landings must have been hoaxed because they were supposedly impossible.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Nowhere Man on September 18, 2014, 11:36:42 PM
Well done.  Some of the images are missing their credits, having just an opening parenthesis.  Also, at one point you state
Quote
Hence "two nines" of reliability (a suitable non-critical standard) is a probability of success p > 0.999 or 99.9%. Three to four nines is more commonplace for a critical component.
How many nines is that, again?

Is this a Ph.D. thesis, or just a paper?  If the former, might the school still have a copy gathering dust in the library?

Fred
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 18, 2014, 11:56:58 PM
Some of the images are missing their credits, having just an opening parenthesis.

Odd.  Fixed, but odd.

Quote
How many nines is that, again?

Also fixed, thanks.  I changed the example when I wrote the second draft and I guess I didn't change all the numbers.  I wanted to give a non-critical example.

Quote
Is this a Ph.D. thesis, or just a paper?

Unknown.  Burns' meandering description of its genesis is unclear and inconsistent.  And maybe too long to post.  But at the same time I realize there are important differences in the U.K. higher education system and its terminology.  He calls it a "thesis" and insinuates he was given some kind of degree on the basis of it.

Quote
If the former, might the school still have a copy gathering dust in the library?

No.  Burns' "modesty" prevents him from giving the details that would enable us to verify it.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Bob B. on September 19, 2014, 12:11:27 AM
Excellent job, Jay.  You really took him apart point by point.

Here are a few more minor errors:

"Most often the remote-update feature was used during manned missions to read up a refreshed state vector, integrating information received from the ground-based tracking tracking network. This was very helpful, but not strictly necessary. It enhanced mission success, but was not required for it." [duplicate word]

"This is too simplistic. First, Burns' 90-percent guess from the previous poitn is now taken as gospel." [misspelling]

"If we hypothetically set the reliability of PGNS to two nines (p > 0.99) and the reliability of AGS to three nines (p > 0.999, owing to its simpler design), then we that probability of failure, pf, is 1-p in each case." [I think you want to delete 'we']
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 19, 2014, 12:32:01 AM
Excellent job, Jay.  You really took him apart point by point.

Thanks; I've fixed those typos.  Also I borrowed your orbit insertion diagram.  There isn't any better one around.  Thanks for that too.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Bob B. on September 19, 2014, 12:35:49 AM
Also I borrowed your orbit insertion diagram.

That explains why it looked so familiar.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: raven on September 19, 2014, 01:31:11 AM
Unknown.  Burns' meandering description of its genesis is unclear and inconsistent.  And maybe too long to post.  But at the same time I realize there are important differences in the U.K. higher education system and its terminology.  He calls it a "thesis" and insinuates he was given some kind of degree on the basis of it.
Probably the third degree if he turned anything like that into a genuine university while in a  genuine physics course.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 19, 2014, 01:37:37 AM
Probably the third degree if he turned anything like that into a genuine university while in a  genuine physics course.

Exactly my point.  I think the story surrounding the alleged submission of the thesis and the subsequent granting of the degree is intentionally nebulous.  "Thesis" and "degree" mean a certain thing in the United States, and this small offering is (1) not even remotely at the scope of what would be required, and (2) egregiously wrong.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Andromeda on September 19, 2014, 01:51:09 AM
If it's not ~80,000 words long and based on original research, it's not a "thesis" for which a degree would be awarded here in the UK.

It sounds more like a poorly-written essay, which he may or may not have actually written and submitted as part of coursework towards a BSc.  In that case, the university would not still have a copy.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Dr_Orpheus on September 19, 2014, 07:09:50 AM
First time poster.  I notice a couple of things about Burns that bugged me.

Did he actually claim that he was writing QuickBasic accounting programs in the 1960s?  That would be quite a feat since Microsoft (founded in the 1970s) didn't release QuickBasic until 1985.

Also, I looked through the posts he made back in '12 and he didn't mention anything about the physics thesis he wrote in 1963 which proved the moon landings were impossible.  Did he forget that he wrote it?  Did modesty prevent him from mentioning it? 
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: smartcooky on September 19, 2014, 07:13:56 AM
A systematic and comprehensive dismemberment of Burns' preposterous paper.

Excellent work Jay
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: ineluki on September 19, 2014, 07:52:21 AM
Here is my response to Burn's alleged physics thesis, from pp. 11-13 of Haunted by Neil Armstrong.

The funniest part for me is this:

"Coming up with a plan that everyone can get behind is hugely difficult."

That's pretty much what all accountants, following their country's version of "Generally accepted accounting principles" do, isn't it?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Andromeda on September 19, 2014, 07:54:47 AM
Welcome to the forum, Dr_Orpheus :)
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Andromeda on September 19, 2014, 08:01:10 AM
Here is my response to Burn's alleged physics thesis, from pp. 11-13 of Haunted by Neil Armstrong.

http://www.clavius.org/bibburnsthesis.html


Very good.

I don't know why this point popped into my head particularly, but with that business about 'passing something between moving cars' (my paraphrasing) being impossible in Burns' mind... does he not believe in aircraft being refuelled in flight then?  Such a thing was done quite commonly by the time he claims to have produced his essay, so why would he be so sure that such and similar procedures were impossible?

Does he therefore claim Gemini 8 (and all the other Gemini and Mercury missions) were hoaxed?  Or is he, like so many HBs, unaware of them?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: frenat on September 19, 2014, 08:19:15 AM
Well done.  Some of the images are missing their credits, having just an opening parenthesis.  Also, at one point you state
Quote
Hence "two nines" of reliability (a suitable non-critical standard) is a probability of success p > 0.999 or 99.9%. Three to four nines is more commonplace for a critical component.
How many nines is that, again?

Is this a Ph.D. thesis, or just a paper?  If the former, might the school still have a copy gathering dust in the library?

Fred
If the age of 70 is accurate then he was 19 in 63 for the paper.  Not impossible for a thesis but unlikely.
I'm guessing it was more for creative writing.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Andromeda on September 19, 2014, 08:29:35 AM
A two-hour essay of twenty points made up out of your head is not a "thesis" nor something you would be awarded a degree solely on the basis of.

Which university does he claim to have attended?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Jockndoris on September 19, 2014, 08:33:12 AM
Here is my response to Burn's alleged physics thesis, from pp. 11-13 of Haunted by Neil Armstrong.

http://www.clavius.org/bibburnsthesis.html

None of these claims rests on a supernatural premise.  It is his recollection of a paper he wrote in 1963 for a physics degree, and which he still stands by as evidence the Moon landings must have been hoaxed because they were supposedly impossible.

JayUtay
Thank you very much for sending your comments on the Burns thesis  to the Clavius website.
This must have been most satisfying - Well worth a read although I only skimmed the 17 pages.  I am sure the experts there will all be most interested and probably want to buy the book to see the real thing!!
Jockndoris




Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Jockndoris on September 19, 2014, 08:36:37 AM
A discussion is not repeatedly claiming I'm a liar, Illiterate, and someone else in disguise, repeatedly and childishly no matter how many times I state otherwise. You're all attacking me and then feigning 'shock and disgust' when I call you all out on it.

Go back and read the first few pages of this thread where you were given a warm welcome, some friendly advice, references to materials you asked for -- even though we disagree with them -- and a promise for further help.  Can you explain why, after reading those initial posts, you would think that the accuracy and historical validity of books on this subject would not be the principal topic of discussion?

Things deteriorated only when your behavior became suspicious, for the reasons given.  Rather than address those reasons, you respond only with rapidly increasing indignation and by digging in your heels over your right to advocate in this forum any way you feel like it.

JayUtah
I see you have been having a rare old spat with skeptic_UK , while I was playing golf yesterday (not this time with astronauts but in a seniors’ match highly contested as always).  I have been keeping a tally on the points scored between you and it seems to me to be about even stevens at the moment. Jockndoris
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Jockndoris on September 19, 2014, 08:41:15 AM
...why should I be bothered by something I don't care about just to satisfy you?

See my previous post...this is a discussion board, and if you don't want to participate, don't.

RAF
Do I infer from your user name that you may be part of the military in the UK ?
If so please send me an snailmail address by email and I will send you a complimentary copy of the book for you to enjoy .
Jockndoris
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Andromeda on September 19, 2014, 08:42:41 AM
No-one here wants your book, Jockndoris.

Again, your are insisting on trying to sell your book and take potshots at contributors here - neither of which is appropriate.

Why?  What do you get out of it?  I don't think for a minute that you don't know Jay runs Clavius, or that he in any way liked your book.  Your assertions on that front just don't ring true and we all know it.  So why are you here?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: frenat on September 19, 2014, 08:46:40 AM
Here is my response to Burn's alleged physics thesis, from pp. 11-13 of Haunted by Neil Armstrong.

http://www.clavius.org/bibburnsthesis.html

None of these claims rests on a supernatural premise.  It is his recollection of a paper he wrote in 1963 for a physics degree, and which he still stands by as evidence the Moon landings must have been hoaxed because they were supposedly impossible.

JayUtay
Thank you very much for sending your comments on the Burns thesis  to the Clavius website.
This must have been most satisfying - Well worth a read although I only skimmed the 17 pages.  I am sure the experts there will all be most interested and probably want to buy the book to see the real thing!!
Jockndoris


Do you try hard to be this delusional or does it come naturally?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: twik on September 19, 2014, 09:15:14 AM
Here is my response to Burn's alleged physics thesis, from pp. 11-13 of Haunted by Neil Armstrong.

The funniest part for me is this:

"Coming up with a plan that everyone can get behind is hugely difficult."

That's pretty much what all accountants, following their country's version of "Generally accepted accounting principles" do, isn't it?

Well, I for one am glad that it's so difficult for  leaders of major countries to formulate plans that "everyone" can get behind, including the military and leaders of industry.

Because otherwise we'd be stuck having wars and stuff, and that would be awful.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Dr_Orpheus on September 19, 2014, 09:17:55 AM
Jockndoris since you are back could you clear up a couple of things?   Did you claim in your book to be writing programs in QuickBasic around the time Apollo 11 landed on the moon?   Why didn't you mention anything about your 1963 physics thesis in any of the posts you made on this board two years ago? 
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 19, 2014, 11:15:25 AM
Thank you very much for sending your comments on the Burns thesis  to the Clavius website.

I didn't "send" it.  I own the site.  That's where I put charlatans like you to the test to show whether or not they stand up to rigorous scrutiny.

Quote
This must have been most satisfying - Well worth a read although I only skimmed the 17 pages.

If you only skimmed it then obviously it's not "well worth a read" to you.  I would think you'd be more interested than that in page that proves to the world what a bald-faced liar you are.   Especially since, in your personal letter to me, you wrote that you had "expected some wonderful new breakthrough" that would allow people to travel to the Moon.  Now the whole world can see your dismissal when those breakthroughs are laid out right before your eyes.

I challenge you to defend your "thesis" here.  Put up or shut up.

Quote
I am sure the experts there will all be most interested and probably want to buy the book to see the real thing!!

I have to agree with my colleague:  are you seriously this delusional, or is this just some act?  No one wants your book, Burns.  It's nothing but lies, and you know it.

I am the expert at Clavius.  I can guarantee no one associated with my site wants the slightest thing to do with your books.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: theteacher on September 19, 2014, 11:16:44 AM
Here is my response to Burn's alleged physics thesis, from pp. 11-13 of Haunted by Neil Armstrong.

http://www.clavius.org/bibburnsthesis.html

Really impressive. Do you never sleep? :-)

Burns here simply states the requirements a successful rocket must meet. That doesn't prove
that any given rocket won't able to meet them.


"be" missing?

Since Burns doesn't list his assumptions or provide any further information or calculations,
so we cannot determine where this absurd fatalistic prediction comes from.


Either "Since" or "so". Not both, I guess?

Far better it was to engineer the system to be operated either locally or remotely, then to use a hybrid method in practice to provide redundancy.

Then -> than

By 1963, American spacecraft had to operate autonously.

Autonomously?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 19, 2014, 11:20:04 AM
I see you have been having a rare old spat with skeptic_UK , while I was playing golf yesterday (not this time with astronauts but in a seniors’ match highly contested as always).  I have been keeping a tally on the points scored between you and it seems to me to be about even stevens at the moment.

As if your judgment were worth anything.

I find it highly revealing that you gloss over and then subsequently ignore a documented, systematic dismantling of your claims to have earned a physics degree -- a claim you publish and sell for money.  But for some reason you take enough interest in my conversation with a total stranger to keep score.

Why is that?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 19, 2014, 11:20:59 AM
Really impressive. Do you never sleep? :-)

Nope.  Nor proofread, apparently.  ::)
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 19, 2014, 11:29:08 AM
Did you claim in your book to be writing programs in QuickBasic around the time Apollo 11 landed on the moon?

Yes, he does.

From p. 16, "Being interested enough to write my own programmes in Quick Basic, I became Chief Accountant and Company Secretary and had a fine office in Maitland and an even finer car."  He goes on at length about the car.  Then some tedious details about accounting practice.  Then two-thirds down the page:  "It was during this time early in 1969 that I was sent by my company ... to study their computer and accounting systems." (emphasis added)

Quote
Why didn't you mention anything about your 1963 physics thesis in any of the posts you made on this board two years ago?

I think that's fairly apparent.  He invented the story about the physics degree for the book, which he hadn't yet written when he appeared here earlier.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: gillianren on September 19, 2014, 11:32:20 AM
I don't know why this point popped into my head particularly, but with that business about 'passing something between moving cars' (my paraphrasing) being impossible in Burns' mind... does he not believe in aircraft being refuelled in flight then?  Such a thing was done quite commonly by the time he claims to have produced his essay, so why would he be so sure that such and similar procedures were impossible?

Heck, both Dr. Strangelove and The Starfighters came out right around then, and both feature plenty of footage of jets refueling.  In one of them, the implied eroticism is even deliberate!
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 19, 2014, 11:34:06 AM
A two-hour essay of twenty points made up out of your head is not a "thesis" nor something you would be awarded a degree solely on the basis of.

Which university does he claim to have attended?

St. Andrews, ostensibly the one in Scotland.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 19, 2014, 11:48:50 AM
If it's not ~80,000 words long and based on original research, it's not a "thesis" for which a degree would be awarded here in the UK.

It sounds more like a poorly-written essay, which he may or may not have actually written and submitted as part of coursework towards a BSc.  In that case, the university would not still have a copy.

I assume he's using the words "thesis" and "degree" loosely enough to attempt to fool a layman.  Here's how the relevant chapter begins:

Quote
I was delighted to get entrance to the University of my choice: St Andrews.

I went there in 1960 and spent the happiest years of my life attending lectures during the day and playing golf on the finest golf courses in the world.

In my final year of my BSc degree we heard that President Kennedy of American had challenged his fellow countrymen to send a man to the Moon and return him safely to the Earth by the end of the decade. ...

[here an irrelevant paragraph bragging about an athletic challenge]

As a final thesis for my Physics degree we were challenged by the legendary Professor Allen to write a paper entitled: Most difficult problems the Americans have to solve if they are to put a man on the Moon as challenged by their President.

I threw myself into this and wrote a good paper, which got me a good degree, and, again only because Modesty is my middle name, I will not tell you how good it was.

You are free to read it now, or got to the next chapter if you wish.

Suffice it to say the Professor gave me 17 ticks out fo 20.  He had a reputation for never giving full marks so I was kind of pleased with my 17.

The "thesis" follows and occupies the rest of the chapter.  At the beginning of the next chapter, without explanation, he's off to Edinburgh to apprentice as an accountant.  The scope of the claimed work doesn't match what would be required.  The timeline is all off too:  Burns starts University in 1960, but then only one year later when Kennedy gives his challenge, Burns is in his "final year" of a BSc.  And again in 1963, Burns is still at university in the final stages of a "Physics degree."
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Dr_Orpheus on September 19, 2014, 11:58:47 AM
Did you claim in your book to be writing programs in QuickBasic around the time Apollo 11 landed on the moon?

Yes, he does.

From p. 16, "Being interested enough to write my own programmes in Quick Basic, I became Chief Accountant and Company Secretary and had a fine office in Maitland and an even finer car."  He goes on at length about the car.  Then some tedious details about accounting practice.  Then two-thirds down the page:  "It was during this time early in 1969 that I was sent by my company ... to study their computer and accounting systems." (emphasis added)

I guess he must have time travelled to the 1980s and brought back a copy of Microsoft QuickBasic and an IBM PC to run it on.  Burns is something isn't he?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 19, 2014, 12:03:33 PM
I guess he must have time travelled to the 1980s and brought back a copy of Microsoft QuickBasic and an IBM PC to run it on.  Burns is something isn't he?

Yes, he is.  The non-supernatural claims are easily-detected lies too.  I didn't examine too closely the plodding middle chapters of the book because they had nothing to do with Neil Armstrong or Apollo.  But that's where those programming claims come from.  I'm betting now if I scrutinized those chapters as closely as the others, I could probably guarantee that the book had at least two provable lies on every page.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Dr_Orpheus on September 19, 2014, 12:13:50 PM
I guess he must have time travelled to the 1980s and brought back a copy of Microsoft QuickBasic and an IBM PC to run it on.  Burns is something isn't he?

Yes, he is.  The non-supernatural claims are easily-detected lies too.  I didn't examine too closely the plodding middle chapters of the book because they had nothing to do with Neil Armstrong or Apollo.  But that's where those programming claims come from.  I'm betting now if I scrutinized those chapters as closely as the others, I could probably guarantee that the book had at least two provable lies on every page.

As another point against him, any version of BASIC was an odd choice for business aps in the mainframe era.  COBOL was the preferred programming language for business.  Assembly would have been used when program size or execution speed was a concern.   
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 19, 2014, 12:52:37 PM
Not to mention he's claiming to be writing PC programs in 1969, while just a few years earlier he was writing a "physics thesis" telling the world Apollo was impossible because computers were too big to fit in a spacecraft.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 19, 2014, 12:54:47 PM
As another point against him, any version of BASIC was an odd choice for business aps in the mainframe era.  COBOL was the preferred programming language for business.  Assembly would have been used when program size or execution speed was a concern.

I concur.  I'm a card-carrying member of the ACM and I've programmed every major architecture (and several minor ones) since the IBM System/370.  I'm a 20-21st century engineer.  Computers are my main tool.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Andromeda on September 19, 2014, 12:59:32 PM
Funny how Jockndoris reappears just as Skeptic_UK disappears...
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Dr_Orpheus on September 19, 2014, 01:14:29 PM
Funny how Jockndoris reappears just as Skeptic_UK disappears...

Perhaps, Skeptic_UK will return to tell about this programming language for mainframes in the 1960s which coincidentally shared the same name as a later Microsoft version of BASIC.  It was fairly obscure and probably not used outside the UK which is why none of us have heard about it or can find any mention of it on the internet.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 19, 2014, 01:21:18 PM
Perhaps, Skeptic_UK will return to tell about this programming language for mainframes in the 1960s which coincidentally shared the same name as a later Microsoft version of BASIC.  It was fairly obscure and probably not used outside the UK which is why none of us have heard about it or can find any mention of it on the internet.

Burns claims some of his programs are still being used.  And the point of his world travels, as foggily illustrated in the "nicely-done" map, was to disseminate those programs and methods throughout the British Empire.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 19, 2014, 01:25:02 PM
Funny how Jockndoris reappears just as Skeptic_UK disappears...

...and heads straight over to give him a pat on the back.  Those two make such a cute couple.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Bob B. on September 19, 2014, 01:26:31 PM
I have to agree with my colleague:  are you seriously this delusional, or is this just some act?  No one wants your book, Burns.  It's nothing but lies, and you know it.

If I had to choose, I'd go with some act.  Which makes him a spammer and a troll, both forum rules violations.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: twik on September 19, 2014, 01:45:01 PM
I should point out that "17 ticks out of 20" is just 85%. Now, I would suspect that a paper that systematically demolishes the possibility of manned space flight in an incontrovertible manner would get higher marks than that. Or, if he claims that his brilliant work was being suppressed, it would be given a failing mark.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: skeptic_UK on September 19, 2014, 01:53:04 PM
Funny how Jockndoris reappears just as Skeptic_UK disappears...
Funny how Jockndoris reappears just as Skeptic_UK disappears...

...and heads straight over to give him a pat on the back.  Those two make such a cute couple.

I got bored of the circular arguments you had me going in and took a break. To somehow imply (If I were, Jockndoris) that I couldn't somehow switch between accounts to post but have to only use one at a time for extended periods is rather stupid.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: skeptic_UK on September 19, 2014, 02:00:24 PM
Funny how Jockndoris reappears just as Skeptic_UK disappears...

Perhaps, Skeptic_UK will return to tell about this programming language for mainframes in the 1960s which coincidentally shared the same name as a later Microsoft version of BASIC.  It was fairly obscure and probably not used outside the UK which is why none of us have heard about it or can find any mention of it on the internet.

Most of my programming experience is in the VB.Net language with a little dabbling in Java/C++/C#. FYI. Not that you care as I'm fully aware we've moved past debate and are now into out and out trolling.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 19, 2014, 02:13:35 PM
I got bored of the circular arguments you had me going in and took a break. To somehow imply (If I were, Jockndoris) that I couldn't somehow switch between accounts to post but have to only use one at a time for extended periods is rather stupid.

What a very predictable reappearance.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: RAF on September 19, 2014, 02:17:42 PM
... I'm fully aware we've moved past debate and are now into out and out trolling.

I've (and others) have asked you NUMEROUS times to provide some sort of reasoning that would explain WHY you believe the garbage presented in this "book".

I believe you incapable of doing that, and the more you "dodge" these questions, the more you re-enforce that belief.

As I previously posted...if you don't want to engage in debate, then don't.


 
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 19, 2014, 02:18:23 PM
Most of my programming experience is in the VB.Net language with a little dabbling in Java/C++/C#. FYI. Not that you care as I'm fully aware we've moved past debate and are now into out and out trolling.

Maybe according to you.

You have no interest in the only topic of debate regarding Haunted that's allowed here.  You just want to keep telling us over and over how good a read it is.

I linked to my thorough dismantling of the author's claim to have a sufficient background in "physics" to determine -- without the aid of ghosts -- that Apollo was impossible.  You have either no interest or no response, which makes your claims of having "moved past the debate" fall rather flat.  Not to mention that the author has made several claims that fall within your purported field of expertise, yet you did not notice how patently false they were.

You can rant all you want about what terrible people you think we are.  But you've been offered several opportunities to debate the facts.  And you've just as often told us the facts don't interest you.  If there's any trolling here, I think we know under whose bridge the troll is hiding.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 19, 2014, 02:21:45 PM
Or, if he claims that his brilliant work was being suppressed, it would be given a failing mark.

The ghost of Professor Allen just appeared in my living room and reported he never had any such student as Neil Burns and that he, the professor, fully believes the Moon landings were real as advertised.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: RAF on September 19, 2014, 02:23:32 PM
RAF
Do I infer from your user name that you may be part of the military in the UK ?
If so please send me an snailmail address by email and I will send you a complimentary copy of the book for you to enjoy .
Jockndoris


Actually, RAF are my initials, however such "small talk" is irrelevant. As I posted, I find zero "enjoyment" reading ignorant lies about the Apollo Moon missions.

Do you understand the above sentence?, because I seriously question your ability to comprehend the written word.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: smartcooky on September 19, 2014, 02:45:31 PM
I don't know why this point popped into my head particularly, but with that business about 'passing something between moving cars' (my paraphrasing) being impossible in Burns' mind... does he not believe in aircraft being refuelled in flight then?  Such a thing was done quite commonly by the time he claims to have produced his essay, so why would he be so sure that such and similar procedures were impossible?

Heck, both Dr. Strangelove and The Starfighters came out right around then, and both feature plenty of footage of jets refueling.  In one of them, the implied eroticism is even deliberate!

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0e/2_A3s_%26_an_A4_tanking.jpg)
1963 - the year Burns claims he wrote this supposed  "thesis". Three U.S. Navy
planes connected for in-flight refueling: Two Douglas KA-3B Skywarriors and a Douglas
A-4E Skyhawk. This was a stunt performed for the photographer.

but forty years earleir!!!

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a1/Refueling%2C_1923.jpg/1024px-Refueling%2C_1923.jpg)
Capt. Lowell H. Smith and Lt. John P. Richter performing the first aerial refueling on
27 June 1923. The DH-4B biplane remained aloft over the skies of Rockwell
Field in San Diego, California, for 37 hours.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Jason Thompson on September 19, 2014, 02:48:15 PM
Quote
I was delighted to get entrance to the University of my choice: St Andrews.

I went there in 1960 and spent the happiest years of my life attending lectures during the day and playing golf on the finest golf courses in the world.

In my final year of my BSc degree we heard that President Kennedy of American had challenged his fellow countrymen to send a man to the Moon and return him safely to the Earth by the end of the decade. ...

A BSc takes three years to complete. If he went to University in 1960 his final year would be 1963, as he claims elsewhere. However, it seems highly unlikely that President Kennedy's speech from 1961 would have taken two years to reach a university in Scotland. I know some parts of it are pretty remote, but even so...

Quote
As a final thesis for my Physics degree we were challenged by the legendary Professor Allen to write a paper entitled: Most difficult problems the Americans have to solve if they are to put a man on the Moon as challenged by their President.

That doesn't even sound vaguely like a title that would be offered for any kind of final year thesis. A minor essay maybe.

Quote
Suffice it to say the Professor gave me 17 ticks out fo 20.  He had a reputation for never giving full marks so I was kind of pleased with my 17.

And if he thinks anyone with an ounce of sense would believe that a final year thesis at any university would be graded in 'marks out of 20' he really must take every one of his readers for idiots.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Jason Thompson on September 19, 2014, 02:50:23 PM
Most of my programming experience is in the VB.Net language with a little dabbling in Java/C++/C#. FYI. Not that you care as I'm fully aware we've moved past debate and are now into out and out trolling.

As you're back, perhaps you'd address my question: do you still maintain it is 'impossible' to know if the content of the book is true or not? If so, why?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: ka9q on September 19, 2014, 02:51:29 PM
Jay,

s/higest/highest/
s/practioner/practitioner/
s/dependance/dependence/
s/surfiace/surface/
s/manuever/maneuver/
s/cosntant/constant/
s/autonously/autonomously/
s/negligble/negligible/
s/offten/often/
s/expresed/expressed/
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 19, 2014, 02:55:21 PM
Thanks, ka9q. I tried a new text editor (Sublime), and I don't know where the spell checker is on it yet.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: skeptic_UK on September 19, 2014, 03:30:57 PM
I got bored of the circular arguments you had me going in and took a break. To somehow imply (If I were, Jockndoris) that I couldn't somehow switch between accounts to post but have to only use one at a time for extended periods is rather stupid.

What a very predictable reappearance.

*facepalms*
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: onebigmonkey on September 19, 2014, 03:38:23 PM
Can I suggest we take a break from the meta-discussion and move back on topic? I don't have the tools to decide if Skeptik and Jock are one and the same, but if they are, so what? The hoax claims are either true or they aren't. They aren't.

The point is, can they answer the questions that have been asked of them concerning the Armstrong's Ghost book specifically, and the hoax in general.

As an aside, I have in my 'Saved for later' list at Abebooks a 2nd hand copy of this

DARK MOON : Apollo and the Whistle-Blowers
David S. Percy
Published by Aulis Publishers, 1999

£2.89 - free postage, and not one penny of it goes to David Percy or Aulis.

I still can't bring myself to buy it though. It would pollute my bookshelves.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: nomuse on September 19, 2014, 03:53:52 PM
Jay,

s/higest/highest/
s/practioner/practitioner/
s/dependance/dependence/
s/surfiace/surface/
s/manuever/maneuver/
s/cosntant/constant/
s/autonously/autonomously/
s/negligble/negligible/
s/offten/often/
s/expresed/expressed/

But did he say "offten" frequently or only once?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: nomuse on September 19, 2014, 03:56:31 PM
That would be my question, too. Does skeptic_UK have anything to discuss in anything resembling depth, particularly anything that might be interesting to other members of the forum? Whether skeptic_UK "likes" a book or doesn't "like" a book is a question that leaves me cold. How about specifics?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 19, 2014, 04:04:12 PM
*facepalms*

So I gave you two posts:  one substantive and the other flippant.  You chose the flippant one to respond to, and you responded to no other posts from anybody else -- including some that ask you pertinent questions.  Please explain again how the breakdown in debate is everyone else's fault.

If you don't care about the factual accuracy of the book, then why are you here?  It has been explained to you that practically all other of your lines of advocacy are irrelevant.  And returning over and over simply to berate other people doesn't really put you on high ground.

Do you still maintain that it is not possible to determine whether the book is factual?

If you care whether or not it is factual, do you have any comment on this:  http://www.clavius.org/bibburnsthesis.html
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: skeptic_UK on September 19, 2014, 04:18:42 PM
*facepalms*

So I gave you two posts:  one substantive and the other flippant.  You chose the flippant one to respond to, and you responded to no other posts from anybody else -- including some that ask you pertinent questions.  Please explain again how the breakdown in debate is everyone else's fault.

If you don't care about the factual accuracy of the book, then why are you here?  It has been explained to you that practically all other of your lines of advocacy are irrelevant.  And returning over and over simply to berate other people doesn't really put you on high ground.

Do you still maintain that it is not possible to determine whether the book is factual?

If you care whether or not it is factual, do you have any comment on this:  http://www.clavius.org/bibburnsthesis.html

I have no idea if he's visited by ghosts or not. Nor do I care. The only reason I continue to mention his book is because you keep asking the same questions over and over. Just because I don't give the answer you prefer seems to mean I don't give any answer at all. Your 1990's era website is cute but not my style thanks. While you may be bothered by the technical aspects of 'hoax' literature (which is perfectly fine) I am not.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: ajv on September 19, 2014, 04:22:29 PM
But did he say "offten" frequently or only once?
...
I'm telling a terrible story, but it doesn't diminish my glory;
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 19, 2014, 04:23:30 PM
That would be my question, too. Does skeptic_UK have anything to discuss in anything resembling depth, particularly anything that might be interesting to other members of the forum? Whether skeptic_UK "likes" a book or doesn't "like" a book is a question that leaves me cold. How about specifics?

As has been said, if you don't believe in ghosts then most of the book is irrelevant and the author urges you to stop reading.  And for good reason, because the only support for his claims that he played golf with Neil Armstrong is the author's subsequent claims to have been visited by Armstrong's ghost.  There is no provision for verifying that claim, and he offers no other evidence.  The insinuation that the golf course guest book contains his name and the Apollo crew members is not proven (or even investigated) in the book.

So if you eliminate that, ignore general golf and accounting stories, ignore the other ghost stories that don't go anywhere, and ignore most of the autobiography, you're left with pages 11-13, which are the author's presumably well-informed, non-supernatural reasons for why he believed, in 1963, that travel to the Moon was impossible.  In that essay he makes only arguments that appeal to science and to the state of the engineering art at the time.  As such I found them worthy of debate.  But none of the book's advocates seem to care about that.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Jason Thompson on September 19, 2014, 04:26:27 PM
I have no idea if he's visited by ghosts or not. Nor do I care.

Don't play dumb. You know full well that is NOT the question being asked. The point is not if he is being visited by ghosts, the point is that the claims made in the book that do not relate to supernatural events are not true. Do you still maintain otherwise?

Quote
While you may be bothered by the technical aspects of 'hoax' literature (which is perfectly fine) I am not.

Then a) you are in the wrong place, and b) you should be concerned with the technical aspects. It is the technical aspects that allow the determination of whether or not there was a hoax in the first place.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: twik on September 19, 2014, 04:28:19 PM
An interesting position to take. "I don't care whether this purported history book is true or not. I just care if it's a ripping yarn."

One wonders why you bother reading presumed non-fiction. Admitted fiction is usually much more oriented towards being entertaining rather than educational.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: nomuse on September 19, 2014, 04:29:43 PM
*facepalms*

So I gave you two posts:  one substantive and the other flippant.  You chose the flippant one to respond to, and you responded to no other posts from anybody else -- including some that ask you pertinent questions.  Please explain again how the breakdown in debate is everyone else's fault.

If you don't care about the factual accuracy of the book, then why are you here?  It has been explained to you that practically all other of your lines of advocacy are irrelevant.  And returning over and over simply to berate other people doesn't really put you on high ground.

Do you still maintain that it is not possible to determine whether the book is factual?

If you care whether or not it is factual, do you have any comment on this:  http://www.clavius.org/bibburnsthesis.html

I have no idea if he's visited by ghosts or not. Nor do I care. The only reason I continue to mention his book is because you keep asking the same questions over and over. Just because I don't give the answer you prefer seems to mean I don't give any answer at all. Your 1990's era website is cute but not my style thanks. While you may be bothered by the technical aspects of 'hoax' literature (which is perfectly fine) I am not.

On the contrary, you are answering the same question over and over. Regardless of what question is actually presented to you.

It only looks like going around in circles because you won't get out of the box. We discuss science and history here, and we'll even do a little literary analysis, but there isn't anything worth discussion in whether you -- or anyone else, "likes" a book or not.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Andromeda on September 19, 2014, 04:30:02 PM
I have no idea if he's visited by ghosts or not. Nor do I care. The only reason I continue to mention his book is because you keep asking the same questions over and over.

Clearly you do care, on some level, because you keep going on about it.  You are being asked the same questions over and over because you have not answered them.


Quote
Just because I don't give the answer you prefer seems to mean I don't give any answer at all.

The "answer" you have provided is to a question we have not asked, not to the questions we have.


Quote
Your 1990's era website is cute but not my style thanks.

Why launch a smug insult?


Quote
While you may be bothered by the technical aspects of 'hoax' literature (which is perfectly fine) I am not.

This forum is for the express purpose of discussing those technical aspects.  If you refuse to do that, then I don't know why you are here and it might be best if you left.

You came here asking for "good" books.  We have shown you, in painstaking detail, why the single book you have chosen is very far from anything that could be described as "good"... and yet you are still not happy, despite getting what you have asked for.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: nomuse on September 19, 2014, 04:30:35 PM
But did he say "offten" frequently or only once?
...
I'm telling a terrible story, but it doesn't diminish my glory;

VEEERY nice!  ;D
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 19, 2014, 04:46:31 PM
I have no idea if he's visited by ghosts or not. Nor do I care.

Those aren't the allegations of fact that concern us.  He alleges he saw the Apollo astronauts on Earth when they were supposed to be on the Moon.  He alleges the physics department of a major university blessed his pseudo-technical claims that Apollo couldn't happen.  He may invoke ghosts, leprechauns, the Easter Bunny, or any other fundamentally untestable form of proof he wants to support those claims -- they would be rejected equally as all untestable.  Even granting for the sake of argument that his supernatural claims are true, it still does not explain the vast mountain of evidence contesting his claims.

Burns seems to say -- and you agree -- "If you don't believe in ghosts, then there's no way to tell whether my claims are true."  On the contrary it is possible to tell.  Simply invoking ghosts doesn't create a scenario where proof rests solely on one thing.

Quote
Just because I don't give the answer you prefer seems to mean I don't give any answer at all.

The big question on the table is whether you still claim it is impossible to determine whether the claims made in the book are true.  Point to where you answered that question in any way.

You seem to want to direct the debate always in directions that aren't pertinent to this forum.  It doesn't matter how many other questions you pose yourself and answer if you can't address the pertinent ones.

Quote
Your 1990's era website is cute but not my style thanks.

So you note only your disapproval of its appearance and ignore its content.  How is that a reasonable judgment?  I noticed you didn't seem to be taken aback by the rudimentary jockndoris.co.uk web site or the crude production values in Haunted by Neil Armstrong.

My "cute" website indeed started in 1999 and I have had little need to update its appearance.  It also happens to be the most widely read and widely linked web site on the subject available on the web.  It was reviewed as the best science-oriented web site of the month in the journal Science in 2007.  On the basis of its content I have contributed worldwide to television programs, books, articles, and radio programs.

So by all means keep trying to sweep it away on flimsy grounds.  See how credible that makes you.

Quote
While you may be bothered by the technical aspects of 'hoax' literature (which is perfectly fine) I am not.

Then you're in the wrong forum.  And since you've been told many times that you're in the wrong forum, I have to keep asking what you think you're going to accomplish here.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: beedarko on September 19, 2014, 05:55:29 PM
Thank you very much for sending your comments on the Burns thesis  to the Clavius website.
This must have been most satisfying - Well worth a read although I only skimmed the 17 pages.  I am sure the experts there will all be most interested and probably want to buy the book to see the real thing!!

Holy geez, what an attention whore. You bring taking the piss to a whole new level.

Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: beedarko on September 19, 2014, 06:34:55 PM
To somehow imply (If I were, Jockndoris) that I couldn't somehow switch between accounts to post but have to only use one at a time for extended periods is rather stupid.

You've obviously devoted a lot of thought to the inner workings of sockpuppetry.

Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: skeptic_UK on September 19, 2014, 07:13:10 PM
To somehow imply (If I were, Jockndoris) that I couldn't somehow switch between accounts to post but have to only use one at a time for extended periods is rather stupid.

You've obviously devoted a lot of thought to the inner workings of sockpuppetry.

Have you actually read this thread? I'm not the one obsessed by the term. I will defend myself from people who baselessness accuse myself of lying or pretending to be someone I am not. Especially when their only 'proof' of the matter is that they cannot comprehend how I could like a piece of work unless I was somehow also it's author.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: ka9q on September 19, 2014, 07:17:09 PM
Especially when their only 'proof' of the matter is that they cannot comprehend how I could like a piece of work unless I was somehow also it's author.
Not a piece of work. This piece of work.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: RAF on September 19, 2014, 07:19:09 PM
Especially when their only 'proof' of the matter is that they cannot comprehend how I could like a piece of work unless I was somehow also it's author.

I, personally, can not comprehend how you could believe such idiotic "work".



Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: RAF on September 19, 2014, 07:28:28 PM
Just because I don't give the answer you prefer seems to mean I don't give any answer at all.

You haven't answered our questions...that is a lie.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: skeptic_UK on September 19, 2014, 07:39:05 PM
I have no idea if he's visited by ghosts or not. Nor do I care.

Those aren't the allegations of fact that concern us.  He alleges he saw the Apollo astronauts on Earth when they were supposed to be on the Moon.  He alleges the physics department of a major university blessed his pseudo-technical claims that Apollo couldn't happen.  He may invoke ghosts, leprechauns, the Easter Bunny, or any other fundamentally untestable form of proof he wants to support those claims -- they would be rejected equally as all untestable.  Even granting for the sake of argument that his supernatural claims are true, it still does not explain the vast mountain of evidence contesting his claims.

Burns seems to say -- and you agree -- "If you don't believe in ghosts, then there's no way to tell whether my claims are true."  On the contrary it is possible to tell.  Simply invoking ghosts doesn't create a scenario where proof rests solely on one thing.

Quote
Just because I don't give the answer you prefer seems to mean I don't give any answer at all.

The big question on the table is whether you still claim it is impossible to determine whether the claims made in the book are true.  Point to where you answered that question in any way.

You seem to want to direct the debate always in directions that aren't pertinent to this forum.  It doesn't matter how many other questions you pose yourself and answer if you can't address the pertinent ones.

Quote
Your 1990's era website is cute but not my style thanks.

So you note only your disapproval of its appearance and ignore its content.  How is that a reasonable judgment?  I noticed you didn't seem to be taken aback by the rudimentary jockndoris.co.uk web site or the crude production values in Haunted by Neil Armstrong.

My "cute" website indeed started in 1999 and I have had little need to update its appearance.  It also happens to be the most widely read and widely linked web site on the subject available on the web.  It was reviewed as the best science-oriented web site of the month in the journal Science in 2007.  On the basis of its content I have contributed worldwide to television programs, books, articles, and radio programs.

So by all means keep trying to sweep it away on flimsy grounds.  See how credible that makes you.

Quote
While you may be bothered by the technical aspects of 'hoax' literature (which is perfectly fine) I am not.

Then you're in the wrong forum.  And since you've been told many times that you're in the wrong forum, I have to keep asking what you think you're going to accomplish here.

Almost every mention of the book in this thread has been by you. You even went out of your way to find the guys website and publicise it. Which you continue to do by posting the link on your own website.

I made one post stating that I liked the book and why. Everything else has been in reply to people attacking that view or myself personally. Don't ask me about something then moan when I mention that something in the reply.

Quote
The big question on the table is whether you still claim it is impossible to determine whether the claims made in the book are true.  Point to where you answered that question in any way.

Have you seen a post by myself where I say I have changed my mind or contradicted my original claim? No. So why would you need to even ask that question? I'd seriously like to know why I'd need to re-affirm a previous statement when it's clear I've not switched positions.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: skeptic_UK on September 19, 2014, 07:40:05 PM
Just because I don't give the answer you prefer seems to mean I don't give any answer at all.

I do not suffer fools at all...you can leave at any time.

If that statement is indeed true, maybe you're the one who should think about leaving.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: skeptic_UK on September 19, 2014, 07:44:40 PM
Especially when their only 'proof' of the matter is that they cannot comprehend how I could like a piece of work unless I was somehow also it's author.

I, personally, can not comprehend how you could believe such idiotic "work".

Erm... OK? Not sure how your lack of comprehension is relevant. I do not care if you don't. I care that you sprout BS and lies about me.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: RAF on September 19, 2014, 07:47:11 PM
I made one post stating that I liked the book and why.

...and your "why" continues to be irrelevant to the discussion going on ON THIS BOARD.

...so why do you continue here?

Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: RAF on September 19, 2014, 07:48:23 PM
I care that you sprout BS and lies about me.

Go away silly troll...
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: RAF on September 19, 2014, 07:49:55 PM
Just because I don't give the answer you prefer seems to mean I don't give any answer at all.

I do not suffer fools at all...you can leave at any time.

If that statement is indeed true, maybe you're the one who should think about leaving.


...and you still can not tell us why you liked/believed a book filled with obvious, ignorant lies...



Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: RAF on September 19, 2014, 07:57:06 PM
Not sure how your lack of comprehension is relevant.

Well, it has to do with it being incomprehensible to me that anyone could believe anything in that book...that YOU do tells us all that your critical thinking skills are non-existent, and that
Your ONLY REASON HERE is to troll.

Boring troll is boring...go away boring troll...
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 19, 2014, 08:23:43 PM
Almost every mention of the book in this thread has been by you.

I discussed several works at the beginning.  Since the time the author of Haunted by Neil Armstrong came into this thread to shill it, you've spoken of no other work.  That's after you asked for a reading list and evaded further questions which other works from it you'd investigated.

Quote
You even went out of your way to find the guys website...

No, I didn't go out my way.  It's printed on the back cover of the book you've been reading for a week.

Quote
...and publicise it.  Which you continue to do by posting the link on your own website.

That is my standard editorial policy.  If you had read any of the other reviews on the site, you'll see I always tell the reader where he can access the original material.  That's to allow someone to see whether I have selectively quoted it.  My argument at the web site is never based on keeping my readers from reading material I disagree with.

Quote
I made one post stating that I liked the book and why. Everything else has been in reply to people attacking that view or myself personally.

No.  Nearly every post has been you whining incessantly about how badly you're being treated at a forum you keep returning to, even when it's abundantly clear you have no interest in its stated purpose.

If you don't like the subject matter, go away.  If you're just here to keep stirring mud, go away.

Quote
Have you seen a post by myself where I say I have changed my mind or contradicted my original claim? No. So why would you need to even ask that question?

Because you made your original claim "...it's impossible to really know if it's true or not," only once in your very first post back from reading it.  Then you spoke of it no more until now, refused to answer questions regarding it, and refused to discuss it with anyone who disagreed with it.

Quote
I'd seriously like to know why I'd need to re-affirm a previous statement when it's clear I've not switched positions.

Because it is not at all clear you haven't switched positions.  You switched your argument almost immediately to not caring whether the book was factual.  And you raised that point over and over for pages, and ignored repeated requests for you to clarify whether or not you were indeed softening your position.

Nearly 10 pages of people trying to engage you on that "it's impossible" point, not the irrelevant indifference you kept substitute.

Now that you've finally affirmed that you believe it's impossible to determine whether the book is factual, do you have any interest in discussing that claim?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: AstroBrant on September 20, 2014, 01:06:20 AM
http://www.clavius.org/Rene-NASA-Mooned-America.pdf , if you must.

OMG! You have it right on your Clavius site! I didn't know that. I've been wanting to read his book for a long time but damn if I was going to pay WunderBlunder for it.

I've read some of it. What I've seen so far is unexpectedly well-written. He must have had a good editor, because it is head and shoulders above the writing he demonstrated on his web page.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Luke Pemberton on September 20, 2014, 06:45:43 AM
I've read some of it. What I've seen so far is unexpectedly well-written. He must have had a good editor, because it is head and shoulders above the writing he demonstrated on his web page.

... but still Everest's peak away from the rest of the sane world.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Jockndoris on September 20, 2014, 07:20:54 AM
http://www.clavius.org/Rene-NASA-Mooned-America.pdf , if you must.


This book is magnificent.  It has nearly 200 pages all of them containing major discrepancies found in the so called Moon Landings which NASA have never explained.   Why they don't just admit it was a Hoax as there is no doubt after reading this book that it was.  I am going to send Rene a copy of my book to see what he makes of it Jockndoris
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: onebigmonkey on September 20, 2014, 07:26:49 AM
http://www.clavius.org/Rene-NASA-Mooned-America.pdf , if you must.


This book is magnificent.  It has nearly 200 pages all of them containing major discrepancies found in the so called Moon Landings which NASA have never explained.   Why they don't just admit it was a Hoax as there is no doubt after reading this book that it was.  I am going to send Rene a copy of my book to see what he makes of it Jockndoris

Good luck with that. Your research powers are as effective as ever.

Like you Rene, was a liar, so pick one of these so called major discrepancies that you think is the smoking gun and we'll see how it fares. Do your worst.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: onebigmonkey on September 20, 2014, 07:36:56 AM
and just so we can remind ourselves how dishonest you are, here is your first post in this thread:

Quote
You obviously don’t know that there is a book published just recently in the UK called  Haunted by Neil Armstrong by Neil Burns.   Google should find it for you.
It claims that the astronaut played golf in Honolulu near Pearl Harbour on the very day he was supposed to be on the Moon in 1969!   It’s not available in the USA so I don’t think you could get a copy.  If it’s true of course it might be the proof everybody has been waiting for.

Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Philthy on September 20, 2014, 08:05:58 AM
I guess it has to be said.

Rene is dead.

Phil
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Allan F on September 20, 2014, 08:14:24 AM
I guess it has to be said.

Rene is dead.

Phil

You shouldn't have told him that.

BTW - Jockndoris or Sceptic_UK - how long did it take you to read Ralph Renés book?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: RAF on September 20, 2014, 08:18:05 AM
This isn't Jock's first hoax thread (http://www.apollohoax.net/forum/index.php?topic=192.msg6124#msg6124).

Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: onebigmonkey on September 20, 2014, 08:52:52 AM
Aaaand seeing as Jock isn't responding yet, let's pick out the first mistake I could be bothered to pay attention to in Rene's meisterwerk.

He claims AS12-49-7278 does not show Conrad to have a camera in Alan Bean's visor reflection of him.

Even the photograph on the cover of his stupid book shows the shadow of that chest mounted camera in the reflection. The high resolution version couldn't be clearer.

See how this works? Ralph Rene lied in his book in the first few pages, just like you lied about playing golf with Armstrong, Collins and Aldrin. We can keep going this going as long as want, but I'd back away and play to your more natural audience of gullible idiots instead.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Bob B. on September 20, 2014, 10:25:46 AM
...which NASA have never explained.

NASA typically doesn't respond to hoax claims.  The claims are so ludicrous that they don't warrant a reaction from them.  Others, however, have completely debunked all of Ralph Rene's nonsense. 
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: frenat on September 20, 2014, 10:38:52 AM
http://www.clavius.org/Rene-NASA-Mooned-America.pdf , if you must.


This book is magnificent.  It has nearly 200 pages all of them containing major discrepancies found in the so called Moon Landings which NASA have never explained.   Why they don't just admit it was a Hoax as there is no doubt after reading this book that it was.  I am going to send Rene a copy of my book to see what he makes of it Jockndoris

So, in other words, you are determined to prove
1. you are unable to do even basic research (Rene has been dead for a while and EVERY claim of his fails to stand up to scrutiny),
2. you are delusional, and
3. you are a troll. 

Consider those proven.  Congrats.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Andromeda on September 20, 2014, 10:44:10 AM
Given that Jockndoris claims to have long conversations with ghosts, I don't suppose Rene's death poses an issue for him.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Dr_Orpheus on September 20, 2014, 10:57:41 AM
Given that Jockndoris claims to have long conversations with ghosts, I don't suppose Rene's death poses an issue for him.

Do you think Rene or Kaysing's ghost was impersonating Armstrong?  What steps did he use to verify that the ghost in question actually was Neil Armstrong?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 20, 2014, 11:11:57 AM
Do you think Rene or Kaysing's ghost was impersonating Armstrong?  What steps did he use to verify that the ghost in question actually was Neil Armstrong?

He was wearing Armstrong's pants.  No, really.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: frenat on September 20, 2014, 11:24:11 AM
Well, if there's anything we've learned from Ghostbusters it is that most ghosts are just floating torsos.  Pants?  Pfft!
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 20, 2014, 11:29:14 AM
...all of them containing major discrepancies...

The people at Clavius, whom you admit are experts, proved how incapable you were of identifying discrepancies in an aerospace engineering project.

Quote
...which NASA have never explained.

The explanation is Rene's case is the same as the explanation in your case -- neither one of you knows the first thing about space engineering.  All his claims are based on assumptions and misconceptions.  Yours too -- you lied through your teeth about getting a physics degree at St Andrews, and no ghost can save you from that fraud.

Here's how credible Rene's claims were.  NASA was set to pay engineering James Oberg $15,000 to write a book addressing those claims.  But when the story was picked up by the media, there was a huge outpouring of criticism from American taxpayers against NASA for spending their money to address such obvious nonsense.  The public backlash was so great NASA canceled the project.

Oberg, however, continued to write the book on his own.  In his debate with Rene, one of the "discrepancies" came up -- namely, the photo of astronaut Mike Collins in his Gemini space suit on a black background, which appears as the frontispiece of Collins' book Carrying the Fire.  The same photo appears later in the book, with the background intact (the inside of the KC-135) and Collins' caption, "The zero-g aircraft.  Ugh."  Rene, in his book, claimed Collins was trying to pass off the frontispiece as an actual photo taken in space.

Of course Collins claims no such thing.   Rene just got it in his addled head that this is why Collins printed it.  We all pointed this out to him.  But Rene stood firm and upped the ante:  he claimed his edition of the book made the claim.  Well, between us all at Bad Astronomy, we had every edition of the Collins book that had ever been printed.  But Rene stood firmer.  When Oberg offered him $10,000 for the alleged smoking-gun copy of the book, Rene ran away.

It's not surprising that a liar and a charlatan of such magnitude would be your hero, Burns.

Quote
Why they don't just admit it was a Hoax as there is no doubt after reading this book that it was.

Because the vast majority of people are not idiots, laughed at this book, and realized it for the dreck it is.  There may be no doubt in your mind, but I've amply demonstrated that your doubt has no toehold in reality.

Quote
I am going to send Rene a copy of my book to see what he makes of it Jockndoris

He's dead.  Let me know how that works out for you.  And since I'm quite familiar with how Rene behaved when he was alive, I can't wait to see you lie through your teeth about meeting his ghost too.

From that familiarity I can tell you exactly how Rene would have responded to you book:  he would have accused you of stealing his ideas and then ranted about how you're taking his business away from him.  That's pretty much how Rene responded to any hoax claimant that wasn't him.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 20, 2014, 11:55:39 AM
NASA typically doesn't respond to hoax claims.  The claims are so ludicrous that they don't warrant a reaction from them.  Others, however, have completely debunked all of Ralph Rene's nonsense.

In a rare move, NASA actually decided to respond to this book and contracted Jim Oberg to write the rebuttal.  NASA got so many letters and phone calls objecting to the expenditure of money on such obvious nonsense that NASA apologized and withdrew the contract.  Oberg wrote the book on his own, but has not yet published it.

Rene self-published his book in the mid 1990s.  And I mean self-published, as in he photocopied every copy and bound it himself on his little spiral-binder.   After about 7 or 8 years, Rene still took orders for the book, but would take months to deliver it.  He said he never forgave David Percy for stealing all his business, and refused to do interviews if any other hoax claimant was invited.  The book quickly faded so far into obscurity that someone had to preserve it, if only to remember what Rene's claims actually were.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 20, 2014, 12:13:01 PM
Aaaand seeing as Jock isn't responding yet, let's pick out the first mistake I could be bothered to pay attention to in Rene's meisterwerk.

I got you beat.  Page d (i.e., before the book even starts) is Rene's lie about Collins claiming the frontispiece was a picture of him during his Gemini 8 mission.

Quote
He claims AS12-49-7278 does not show Conrad to have a camera in Alan Bean's visor reflection of him.

Rene wasn't the most visually observant.  I actually got the impression his vision was quite poor about the time he wrote this book.

Quote
See how this works? Ralph Rene lied in his book in the first few pages...

And keeps lying.  There's another one before the Conrad camera claim.

The Gemini "fireproof antenna" takes about five minutes to debunk, for someone familiar with space operations.  Rene notes the VHF antenna on the landed spacecraft and notes (correctly) that there's no way it would withstand re-entry.  He correctly notes that it's used only for locating the spacecraft, but then inexplicably reports (citing no source) that NASA claims the divers attached this antenna.

A minute's perusal of the Gemini familiarization materials NASA gave out to journalists and such confirms that the antenna is part of the spacecraft and is extended automatically after landing.  During re-entry it's kept protected inside the spacecraft structure.

Hoax authors always pretend they know what they're talking about, and they always lie.  Burns has done both, just as Rene did.

Quote
We can keep going this going as long as want, but I'd back away and play to your more natural audience of gullible idiots instead.

Agreed.  Rene was most upset that he lost his audience of gullible idiots to other authors and had to make his living doing something else.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: gillianren on September 20, 2014, 12:16:17 PM
From that familiarity I can tell you exactly how Rene would have responded to you book:  he would have accused you of stealing his ideas and then ranted about how you're taking his business away from him.  That's pretty much how Rene responded to any hoax claimant that wasn't him.

So isn't that another claim from a certain young man from the Antipodes that fails to hold up to scrutiny, then?  Doesn't he consider himself in intellectual descent from Rene (for a given definition of "intellectual," of course!) despite the fact that Rene clearly would have hated him, too?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 20, 2014, 12:39:57 PM
So isn't that another claim from a certain young man from the Antipodes that fails to hold up to scrutiny, then?  Doesn't he consider himself in intellectual descent from Rene (for a given definition of "intellectual," of course!) despite the fact that Rene clearly would have hated him, too?

That species of Antipodeus Wrecks would have been perfectly okay, because he did the proper thing by worshiping Rene.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 20, 2014, 12:57:19 PM
This isn't Jock's first hoax thread (http://www.apollohoax.net/forum/index.php?topic=192.msg6124#msg6124).

Nor is this the first thread in which Neil Burns utterly refuses to provide evidence, answer questions, or reconcile his claims with the evidence.

And I don't mean the ghost claims.  I mean the claim that he golfed at Navy Marine with Neil Armstrong, and the claim that his physics professor at St Andrews gave him a degree for a brief paper allegedly showing how Apollo was technically impossible.

Nor is it relevant that some other posters here don't consider technical and historical accuracy either interesting or compelling.  At Apollohoax.net they are, and if that's where you're going to post then that's the kind of discussion that's going to ensue.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Jockndoris on September 20, 2014, 01:58:34 PM
Do you think Rene or Kaysing's ghost was impersonating Armstrong?  What steps did he use to verify that the ghost in question actually was Neil Armstrong?

He was wearing Armstrong's pants.  No, really.
Well done JayUtah you got that one right first time!  But of course you have read the book!!  He was wearing golfers shorts just like mine.  Jockndoris   
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: gillianren on September 20, 2014, 02:09:04 PM
Well done JayUtah you got that one right first time!  But of course you have read the book!!  He was wearing golfers shorts just like mine.  Jockndoris   

That's a really stupid way of proving someone's identity.  You're a bad writer, and you should feel bad.

Note that I expect him to completely ignore this post unless he can twist it into being positive about his book.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Zakalwe on September 20, 2014, 02:12:21 PM

Well done JayUtah you got that one right first time!  But of course you have read the book!!  He was wearing golfers shorts just like mine.  Jockndoris

Wow.

Just wow.

Obvious troll is obvious.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 20, 2014, 02:23:44 PM
Well done JayUtah you got that one right first time!  But of course you have read the book!!  He was wearing golfers shorts just like mine.  Jockndoris!

What an irrelevant statement.

I would like you to comment instead on the various lies I've caught you telling, not the least of which is that you received a physics degree from St Andrews University based on a brief expression of your ignorance regarding space flight.

Any comment?  Or are you content with being shown as a bald-faced liar?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Echnaton on September 20, 2014, 03:05:22 PM
Obvious troll is obvious.

Ya.  There is little left of this but his need for attention. 
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Bob B. on September 20, 2014, 04:53:57 PM
Since this discussion is going nowhere, with Jockndoris/skeptic_UK being obvious trolls, maybe it's time to lock the thread.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: beedarko on September 20, 2014, 05:39:56 PM
That species of Antipodeus Wrecks would have been perfectly okay, because he did the proper thing by worshiping Rene.

No more proof needed than the telephonic "love-in" where they discuss you at some length.

Whenever I hear it I get a visual of Rene trying to shake Jarrah off his leg, like a confused, lovesick puppy.

Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: ChrLz on September 20, 2014, 06:17:30 PM
Jockndoris, why not prove yourself as the superb researcher who should be taken seriously, by, instead of Gish Galloping...

NOMINATE the very best evidence you have.  Pick the absolute proof of a hoax, and then let's see how you go at defending that 'evidence'.

Surely the chance to show us all how good you are, is one not to be missed.  And if your logic and science skills are up to the challenge, then you should be very keen..

So what's the 'smokin' gun', then?  A claim of ghostly golf, perhaps?

Just ONE thing - no galloping off like a coward..
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Jason Thompson on September 20, 2014, 06:34:37 PM
Have you seen a post by myself where I say I have changed my mind or contradicted my original claim? No. So why would you need to even ask that question? I'd seriously like to know why I'd need to re-affirm a previous statement when it's clear I've not switched positions.

Because since (and before) you made that statement there have been innumerable posts detailing exactly how it is most definitely NOT impossible to determine if the claims made in that book are true or not. Why have you continually ignored them?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 20, 2014, 06:35:49 PM
Jockndoris, why not prove yourself as the superb researcher who should be taken seriously, by, instead of Gish Galloping...

Or he could justify what he says in his own poeufs d'editeur where he describes himself as a chartered accountant "whose word has never been doubted."  I'd say his word is doubtful.  He lies like a rug.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Al Johnston on September 20, 2014, 06:41:13 PM
A BSc takes three years to complete. If he went to University in 1960 his final year would be 1963, as he claims elsewhere. However, it seems highly unlikely that President Kennedy's speech from 1961 would have taken two years to reach a university in Scotland. I know some parts of it are pretty remote, but even so...

Four in Scotland, I think: something to do with their "Higher" school qualification taking 1 year to the England & Wales A-levels 2...
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: skeptic_UK on September 20, 2014, 09:02:32 PM
Since this discussion is going nowhere, with Jockndoris/skeptic_UK being obvious trolls, maybe it's time to lock the thread.

Obvious troll? How so? For the one statement you disagree with me on? wow.  ::)
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 20, 2014, 09:07:55 PM
Obvious troll? How so? For the one statement you disagree with me on? wow.  ::)

No, for your incessant whining and your inability to engage the subject of the thread/forum.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: skeptic_UK on September 20, 2014, 09:19:47 PM
Have you seen a post by myself where I say I have changed my mind or contradicted my original claim? No. So why would you need to even ask that question? I'd seriously like to know why I'd need to re-affirm a previous statement when it's clear I've not switched positions.

Because since (and before) you made that statement there have been innumerable posts detailing exactly how it is most definitely NOT impossible to determine if the claims made in that book are true or not. Why have you continually ignored them?

I stand by my claim, as I've repeatedly said, that It's impossible to know if the claims in the book (that the author believes he was visited by Neil Armstrongs ghost) is true or not. Unlikely maybe, but not impossible.

Obvious troll? How so? For the one statement you disagree with me on? wow.  ::)

No, for your incessant whining and your inability to engage the subject of the thread/forum.

As opposed to your incessant repeating of lies about me, right?

I've engaged the subject of the thread plenty. I asked for literature on the moon landings hoax theory. I was linked some. I said thank you and offered some feedback on one of them. I then spent a good week defending myself from your attacks on my character and lies because you didn't like it. Then I'm called whining for defending myself from those attacks? lovely.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Echnaton on September 20, 2014, 09:25:04 PM
I stand by my claim, as I've repeatedly said, that It's impossible to know if the claims in the book (that the author believes he was visited by Neil Armstrongs ghost) is true or not. Unlikely maybe, but not impossible.

Yawn.  Your repetitiveness is getting really dull. 

If you want to stand by your claims, then answer the questions that challenge them.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 20, 2014, 09:34:05 PM
I stand by my claim, as I've repeatedly said, that It's impossible to know if the claims in the book (that the author believes he was visited by Neil Armstrongs ghost) is true or not. Unlikely maybe, but not impossible.

Nice horse-changing parenthetical.  Those aren't the claims we're talking about, and we've said so several times.  It has also been noted several times how you keep returning to that question -- and that question only -- anytime someone attempts to bring up the testable claims from the book.

His testable claims are that (1) he played golf with the mortal Neil Armstrong at a military-only golf course in 1969 on the day he was supposed to be on the Moon, and (2) that he was granted a degree in physics by St Andrews University by showing how the Moon landings would be impossible.

Do you believe it is impossible to know if those claims are true or not?

Quote
I've engaged the subject of the thread plenty.  I asked for literature on the moon landings hoax theory. I was linked some. I said thank you and offered some feedback on one of them.

And only that one (despite all attempts to solicit otherwise from you), and on grounds that are not pertinent to this forum.  Your "feedback" was an opinion of its value judged solely from an entertainment perspective, an insinuation that criticism against it was ill-founded, and an assertion that it was somehow immune from critical analysis.

Quote
Then I'm called whining for defending myself from those attacks? lovely.

That's all you do anymore:  defend yourself from all those evil people who are out to get you, supposedly just for expressing your opinion.  Those several people -- including me -- have asked you several on-topic questions hoping to drag the discussion back to tractable questions that are allowed in this forum.  So far you haven't acknowledged any of them.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: nomuse on September 20, 2014, 10:08:23 PM


Because since (and before) you made that statement there have been innumerable posts detailing exactly how it is most definitely NOT impossible to determine if the claims made in that book are true or not. Why have you continually ignored them?

I stand by my claim, as I've repeatedly said, that It's impossible to know if the claims in the book (that the author believes he was visited by Neil Armstrongs ghost) is true or not. Unlikely maybe, but not impossible.

Bolding mine.

"Claim" != "claims." You are quite correct; it is impossible to know if the author was visited (or even, if he only believes he was visited) by a ghost.

But this is a science-based board. We have no interest in subjects that can not be treated naturalistically. Whether there are ghosts or gods are not fit subject for this forum.

The author also claims expertise at the game of golf, yet you seem monumentally disinterested in discussing that (even though those parts are the most extensive parts of the book you claim to have enjoyed).

This is the merry-go-round you've been doing for pages now; when asked to discuss anything other than the ghost claim, you repeat your answer to the ghost claim. And then turn around and accuse others of repeating themselves.

Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Bob B. on September 20, 2014, 10:39:15 PM
For the one statement you disagree with me on?

What statement would that be?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Derek on September 21, 2014, 03:57:21 AM


Four in Scotland, I think: something to do with their "Higher" school qualification taking 1 year to the England & Wales A-levels 2...
OT
An ordinary degree typically takes 3 years here, with an honours degree taking typically 4.  When I was picking universities 30 years ago the entry requirements between Scottish and English institutions were broadly similar. That's still the case now and would have been 20 years earlier than I went to uni (ie when Jockndoris attended St Andrews).
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: onebigmonkey on September 21, 2014, 04:38:29 AM

I stand by my claim, as I've repeatedly said, that It's impossible to know if the claims in the book (that the author believes he was visited by Neil Armstrongs ghost) is true or not. Unlikely maybe, but not impossible.


I'm going to go out on a limb and say that it is very possible to make a statement about his claims: The author's claims are not true. He made them up to make money.

He did not play golf with Armstrong, Collins and Aldrin - not just when they were on the moon, but ever, and he has never been visited by the ghost of Neil Armstrong other than in a post 19th hole dream.

His claims are not true and he knows they are not true.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Jason Thompson on September 21, 2014, 04:39:22 AM
I stand by my claim, as I've repeatedly said, that It's impossible to know if the claims in the book (that the author believes he was visited by Neil Armstrongs ghost) is true or not. Unlikely maybe, but not impossible.

Don't play dumb with us. We have said on many occasions that that claim is NOT the one we are discussing. Was he visited by the ghost of Neil Armstrong? Maybe. Does the ghostly visit he describes in the book match anything about the known character of the actual man? No. Do his claims to have been granted a physics degree on the basis of a 'thesis' that was marked as '17 out of 20' and contains not a jot of actual degree'-level physics in it? No. Are any of his statements regarding Neil Armstrong and Apollo in any way remotely true? No, and the author knows it. THOSE are the claims we are addressing, as you well know.

I don't care if you are Burns or not. I don't care if he was visited by ghosts or not. I care that every other claim in his 'book' is demonstrably falsehoods, and that you don't seem to care despite his position of pubishing it as if it is some factual account.

Quote
I've engaged the subject of the thread plenty.

No, you haven't. You have engaged this one area only and ignored every other question that has been put to you. You've been given a lot of resource here, and yet all you do is whinge on about this sock puppet business. Why?

Quote
Then I'm called whining for defending myself from those attacks? lovely.

No, you are being called whining for focusing exclusively on those 'attacks' and ignoring every other comment or question.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Andromeda on September 21, 2014, 06:46:43 AM
It's interesting, Skeptic_UK, that rather than directly tell the author what you think of his book you have chosen to attack the others on the thread.

It is also interesting, Jockndoris, that you have here someone who claims to genuinely like your book but you have not said a word to him - choosing instead to goad the others on this thread.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Zakalwe on September 21, 2014, 07:17:29 AM

I've engaged the subject of the thread plenty.

No, not really.

You seem overly keen to believe the demented ramblings about ghosts from some unknown pensioner, yet quite happy to disbelieve the virtually unlimited evidence that the Apollo program happened as described in the historical canon, even if that means disbelieving the accounts of people who are a million times more trusthworthy and smarter than Burns. Why is this?

You seem very keen to avoid answering simple questions such as this:
I've always had a passing interest in the moon hoax and do believe it was faked myself.
Why?

Why exactly is this?

The subject of your thread was this:
I'd love to read more on the subject though bar what websites have to offer.

Are there any decent books out there which cover the hoax, attempts to debunk the hoax theory or even fiction based on the moon hoax conspiracy.
Yet you have latched solely on to a wretched piece of fiction. Why?

Why have you ignored the other books that you've been recommended?

Your fourth post on this forum latched onto this execrable piece of nonsense from an unknown author
Sounds interesting! Will look it up. Thanks.
Why the immediate interest in this piece of nonsense when there had been many other recommendations before Burns suddenly re-found this forum after a 2 year absence?


Anyway. I've definitely loved reading some of the links and have ordered some books.
Which ones? How come you have only given a mini-review of some trash and not a peep about the other books? Mind you, if it took you a week to read 60 pages of large print then you are probably still wrestling with the prologue of any book that contains the merest whiff of content...

And you wonder why people are questioning your motives?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: beedarko on September 21, 2014, 07:39:54 AM
It is also, interesting, Jockndoris, that you have here someone who claims to genuinely like your book but you have not said a word to him

That's a keen observation. He goes on about Jay's imagined enjoyment of his work, but completely ignores the one person expressing 'real' admiration.

Hey Jock, why no love for the person who appears to be your only living fan?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 21, 2014, 12:20:07 PM
As I told Skeptic_UK, this thread went south only when he started behaving suspiciously.  As for Neil Burns (Jockndoris), he has always behaved suspiciously.  He hasn't ignored Skeptic_UK entirely:  remember Burns said the score in the debate between Skeptic_UK and me (not between Skeptic_UK and, well, the rest of the forum) was about even.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Dr_Orpheus on September 21, 2014, 01:04:28 PM
Most people who have read a book they liked would take advantage of the opportunity to discuss the book with the author.  Skeptic_UK, do you have any questions or comments you would like to say to Mr. Burns about his book?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Jockndoris on September 21, 2014, 02:17:25 PM
...all of them containing major discrepancies...

The people at Clavius, whom you admit are experts, proved how incapable you were of identifying discrepancies in an aerospace engineering project.

Quote
...which NASA have never explained.

The explanation is Rene's case is the same as the explanation in your case -- neither one of you knows the first thing about space engineering.  All his claims are based on assumptions and misconceptions.  Yours too -- you lied through your teeth about getting a physics degree at St Andrews, and no ghost can save you from that fraud.

JayUtah

I am happy to give you all positive proof of my University of St Andrews Batchelor of Science degree to which I was admitted in 1963.    I attach this link where any of you can find it.  It shows a scan taken today of the actual Certificate which I have hung proudly on the wall of every office I have occupied over a 50 year period.

             
http://i.imgur.com/OgfS8Tt.jpg

Once you have seen the Certificate I expect an abject apology from you for your unnecessary rudeness in calling me a liar.  This was totally unjustified like many of your other jibes on this Forum which seem all you are capable of doing these days.
Jockndoris









Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Andromeda on September 21, 2014, 02:30:11 PM
Why doesn't that "certificate" have the title of the degree on it?

Why does it not have the degree classification on it?

How do you account for the dating discrepancy regarding Kennedy's speech which Jason pointed out?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Jason Thompson on September 21, 2014, 02:46:08 PM
Jockndoris, why does that certificate, that you say has been hung proudly on the wall for 50 years, look like it's been folded up and crumpled? Why does it have a mark in the upper right that looks like someone has either written on it or written on a sheet of paper with the certificate underneath? Why does it loook like a poor photocopy? Even in 1963 a degree certificate might be expected to be provided on good quality paper, and if you've had it framed on display for 50 years it should still be in good condition.

Also, as Andromeda says, you claim to have obtained a physics degree, yet I can see no mention of the word 'physics' anywhere on that certificate, nor any classification. Was it first class? Second class? With honours?

Finally, you are still very naive if you think anyone here believes you were granted a degree based on an essay marked '17 ticks out of 20'. Since Kennedy's speech was made in May 1961, you would have been in the last term of the first year of your degree course, so even if we accept you were given an assignment relating to it, it wouldn't have been in the final year. And you certainly wouldn't have been awarded a degree based on an essay that includes not one single bit of actual physics in it.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: gillianren on September 21, 2014, 03:00:52 PM
You know, I'm considering asking a friend who graduated from St. Andrew's a little over a decade ago to show me her diploma.  I bet it doesn't look anything like that.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 21, 2014, 03:14:01 PM
It shows a scan taken today of the actual Certificate which I have hung proudly on the wall of every office I have occupied over a 50 year period.

Physics is not listed.

Quote
Once you have seen the Certificate I expect an abject apology from you for your unnecessary rudeness in calling me a liar.

No.

I never questioned your having earned a BSc.  I questioned whether it was a degree in Physics or not.  This certificate confirms to me it was not.

You still have not addressed the obvious and egregious errors in your alleged thesis, such as claiming Arthur C. Clarke was the progenitor of quantitative orbital mechanics.  You still have not reconciled the dates in the timeline of your collegiate studies. 
You have not explained why you think a physics degree would be awarded to you on the basis of a brief paper.

By "Professor Allen" in your book, I presume you refer to Emeritus Professor John Allen, in the School of Physics and Astronomy.  As Prof. Allen is still alive and thus able to comment on your claims, I wonder if you have anything you'd like to say before I forward copies of the relevant pages of your book to him for his comment.

Finally, I will not be lectured by you on the subject of rudeness.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 21, 2014, 03:16:11 PM
You know, I'm considering asking a friend who graduated from St. Andrew's a little over a decade ago to show me her diploma.  I bet it doesn't look anything like that.

I've already taken the liberty already of examining specimens of University of St. Andrews diplomas from the late 1950s to the mid 1960s.  Needless to say they appear quite different and are considerably more ornate.  However, as I said, I never questioned Burns' baccalaureate in general, just the insinuation that it was in Physics.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: nomuse on September 21, 2014, 03:34:11 PM
I think there was also a clear question up in the air about whether misattributing Kepler's work to A.C. Clarke and then getting it all wrong yourself would earn one a physics degree from St. Andrews.

The question was not "Can you produce a picture of a degree" but "Can you explain how the work you've demonstrated qualified you for a degree?"
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 21, 2014, 03:52:45 PM
Jockndoris, why does that certificate, that you say has been hung proudly on the wall for 50 years, look like it's been folded up and crumpled? Why does it have a mark in the upper right that looks like someone has either written on it or written on a sheet of paper with the certificate underneath? Why does it loook like a poor photocopy? Even in 1963 a degree certificate might be expected to be provided on good quality paper, and if you've had it framed on display for 50 years it should still be in good condition.

The letter is signed only by the registrar, not by the president of the university, the dean of the college, or any of the regents.  An actual diploma must have certain signatures and seals, which this letter lacks.  A registrar's letter on official letterhead would serve in some circumstances as certification of accession to a degree, but those circumstances would be along the lines of loss of the original diploma, or a letter issued for employment purposes while the formal diploma is being prepared.  It's crumpled and folded likely because it has been mailed.  Why anyone would frame that and put it on their wall instead of a diploma is beyond me, but if that's what he cherishes then so be it.

Quote
Also, as Andromeda says, you claim to have obtained a physics degree, yet I can see no mention of the word 'physics' anywhere on that certificate...

"Natural philosophy" is an older term for sciences that once included physics, but it differs from a specialized study of physics that would merit a specialized degree from the School of Physics and Astronomy.  The list of exams taken indicates what we in the United States refer to as General Studies.  In an American university, every baccalaureate must show a certain small proficiency in the natural sciences, such as in chemistry, astronomy, or physics.  But these are typically from introductory, 100-level classes given en masse to undergraduates.

Quote
...nor any classification. Was it first class? Second class? With honours?

For the benefit of those of us unfamiliar with these distinctions, would you please explain what would be expected on such a certificate?

Quote
Finally, you are still very naive if you think anyone here believes you were granted a degree based on an essay marked '17 ticks out of 20'. Since Kennedy's speech was made in May 1961, you would have been in the last term of the first year of your degree course, so even if we accept you were given an assignment relating to it, it wouldn't have been in the final year. And you certainly wouldn't have been awarded a degree based on an essay that includes not one single bit of actual physics in it.

Hence why I think Burns inflates the terms "thesis" and "degree" in the explanation given in the book.  I find it entirely plausible that he attended at least one physics lecture at St. Andrews, and that it may have been taught by Prof. John Allen.  I find it somewhat plausible that, as a 19-year-old student in 1961 would have been given a classroom assignment to discuss Kennedy's challenge, and that his recollection of what he wrote was somewhat accurate.

It is not at all plausible that he earned any sort of degree based upon this paper, nor that this assignment would have received a very favorable grade.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Jason Thompson on September 21, 2014, 04:16:02 PM
An actual diploma must have certain signatures and seals, which this letter lacks.

Just to confuse the issue further, here in the UK a diploma is in fact a qualification in its own right: it is what you obtain after completion of the first year of a course. The certificate of the degree itself is just referred to as a certificate.

Quote
For the benefit of those of us unfamiliar with these distinctions, would you please explain what would be expected on such a certificate?

On this point Andromeda and I must retract the original question. In Scotland a three year degree course would be awarded as an 'ordinary degree', with no honours classifications such as I enquired about. Honours are reserved for courses lasting four or more years.

However, to answer the question, in the rest of the United Kingdom a degree is usually an honours degree, and may be passed with grades:

First class honours is the highest classification (though some of the more elite universities offer higher classifications within that to indicate exceptional work).

Second class honours are divided into upper second class and lower second class, denoted as a 2:1 and 2:2 respectively. (A lower second class degree is often referred to as a Desmond, after Desmond Tutu!)

Third class honours is the lowest honours degree pass level.

An ordinary degree is a pass without honours, or may be a degree course that did not include honours in the first place. Most Open University degrees are ordinary degrees, for example.

Quote
I find it entirely plausible that he attended at least one physics lecture at St. Andrews, and that it may have been taught by Prof. John Allen.  I find it somewhat plausible that, as a 19-year-old student in 1961 would have been given a classroom assignment to discuss Kennedy's challenge, and that his recollection of what he wrote was somewhat accurate.

I find that plausible too. As with you, however, I do not believe he could have earned a degree based on it, nor in fact got a high mark if it was supposed to be a scientific essay rather than a general discussion of the challenges of landing a man on the Moon.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 21, 2014, 04:21:54 PM
I think there was also a clear question up in the air about whether misattributing Kepler's work to A.C. Clarke and then getting it all wrong yourself would earn one a physics degree from St. Andrews.

No.  No matter how you slice it, the paper exhibits a high level of ignorance and misconception.  I could go back and grade it as if it were an undergraduate physics paper, and I still guarantee it wouldn't get 17 out of 20.  Under no circumstances would a university of St Andrews' reputation grant a subject-matter degree to such ignorance.

But the sticky wicket is that if Burns comes clean and admits, for example, that it was just a brief paper written as an undergraduate as part of some general-studies requirement, that undermines any claim he would have to special expertise in physics.  The reader might instead say, "Oh, I see, it was just a college class assignment, not a degree thesis."  The way Burns styles it in his book, he got a degree in Physics, and this paper was a big part of it -- and on the basis of that insinuation, the claims in the paper would carry more weight with a layman reader.

Quote
The question was not "Can you produce a picture of a degree" but "Can you explain how the work you've demonstrated qualified you for a degree?"

Burns seems to have gotten the impression we doubt his studies at St Andrews in toto.  That is not the case.  If he first matriculated in 1960 then a baccalaureate in 1963 is entirely plausible.  I doubt he obtained any specialized degree in Physics.  I doubt the paper he presents in his book qualifies as a degree thesis.  And the timeline for writing the degree thesis in 1963 doesn't jive with the Kennedy announcement in 1961.

However, a 1961 date fits very well with writing a short paper in a first-year physics or astronomy course.  But then again, it's just some college kid's paper -- not the masterful thesis proving Apollo is impossible.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Jason Thompson on September 21, 2014, 04:27:26 PM
If he first matriculated in 1960 then a baccalaureate in 1963 is entirely plausible.

And just to confuse matters further, over here a baccalaureate is another qualification in its own right. What Burns claims to have is a Batchelor of Science degree, abbreviated to BSc.

Quibbles over terminology I know. Who was it who said England and America were divided by a common language? :)
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Andromeda on September 21, 2014, 04:32:51 PM
Who was it who said England and America were divided by a common language? :)

A version of it appeared the The Canterville Ghost by Oscar Wilde (1887).
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 21, 2014, 04:37:07 PM
Just to confuse the issue further...

Hence why I have let you folks in the U.K. lead the discussion of terminology and scope of study.  In the United States, a diploma is the formal signed and sealed document for the completion of a degree:  bachelor, master, or doctor.  It is considered the definitive documentation proving admission or accession to the degree, however in practice a signed and sealed registrar's letter or transcript is more commonly requested.

What I'm looking at elsewhere from U.K. universities and calling a diploma is in fact a certificate.

Quote
On this point I must retract the original question. In Scotland a three year degree course would be awarded as an 'ordinary degree', with no honours classifications such as I enquired about.

In the U.S. we have honors classifications, cum laude, magna cum laude, and summa cum laude respectively.  But they refer to standing in the graduating class.  Only a certain number of summa cum laude honors are granted per graduating class, for example.

However, we don't really apply much of a distinction between an ordinary degree and and honored degree.  It's a mark of prestige, but we consider an ordinary degree to be a suitable documentation of expertise.

Quote
...nor in fact got a high mark if it was supposed to be a scientific essay rather than a general discussion of the challenges of landing a man on the Moon.

That's why I question the language in the book.  It seems to be geared toward inflating the significance of the paper so as to convey the impression Neil Burns was some kind of physics expert, and that the paper -- being the opinion of a "physics expert" -- offers objectively plausible arguments for why Apollo would be impossible.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 21, 2014, 04:39:12 PM
And just to confuse matters further, over here a baccalaureate is another qualification in its own right. What Burns claims to have is a Batchelor of Science degree, abbreviated to BSc.

We'll stick with that, then.  As I said, I can speak with great confidence on the subject of American higher education.   But not the U.K. system and terminology.  This is why I ask about the precise meanings of "thesis" and "degree" as they would apply to Burns' claims.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 21, 2014, 04:59:04 PM
A version of it appeared the The Canterville Ghost by Oscar Wilde (1887).

...who visited frontier Utah as part of his travels and wrote of it.  I know we aren't a literary society, but that just has "culture clash" written all over it.  The phrase is usually attributed to Winston Churchill, but then a lot of stuff is.

I can certainly comment on the validity of the paper itself.  It's right up the middle of the fairway of my professional expertise.  And it's crap.

But the correct positioning of the paper and the claims surrounding it within the U.K. and/or Scotland higher education system is not something I can do with expertise.  But that said, no subject-matter degree would be awarded on the basis of such a flimsy, ephemeral essay.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Luke Pemberton on September 21, 2014, 05:29:57 PM
And just to confuse matters further, over here a baccalaureate is another qualification in its own right. What Burns claims to have is a Batchelor of Science degree, abbreviated to BSc.

Indeed. The baccalaureate in England was to be based on the respected French qualification. Michael Gove wished to introduce the concept as a the standard for 11-18 education, but abandoned it for Progress 8 at 14-16 and retained A-levels at 16-18. Progress 8 is based on the baccalaureate subjects, but it does not follow all the way through to 18 as Mr Gove intended.

The old Grade G-A* system at 14-16 will be phased out with new 1-9 grades. Grade 8 will be broadly equivalent to the current A*, and 9 being A**, dubbed the super GCSE.

In the UK, we have vocational qualifications. There is the BTEC Level 3 for 16-18, which is awarded as a certificate. This is then followed by the Higher National Certificate (HNC) and Higher National Diploma (HND) programmes of study. After receiving an HND, one has a qualifications to be accepted onto a degree course. HNDs are normally based at Foundation Degree level which were once offered by Universities. At my undergrad University, Engineering students who did not quite have the A-level grades to study 1st year BEng were given the option to study a Foundation year. If they completed that Year successfully, they were then transferred to a degree programme for another 3 years.

A student can also receive a Diploma after successfully completing the first year of a Degree Course. I know that my friend failed the second year of his degree, but was awarded a Diploma.

In some cases a Diploma can take 2 years. For instance, in the UK someone can study for a PGCE, which is a Post Graduate Certificate of Education. They'll earn 30 Masters Points if they complete their assignments as Masters Level, otherwise they will be awarded a Professional Graduate Certificate of Education (basically they earn the right to teach but have no masters points).

A student with 30 masters point from a PGCE can study for a further two Years to gains an MA or MSc in Education. After the first year they can cash in their Diploma and then go onto the 2nd Year for a Masters.

It's not clear cut but in general the basic structure follows:

General Certificate of Secondary Education (GCSEs, 14-16)
General Certificate of Education (A-levels, 16-18)
Vocational Certificate
Vocational Diploma
Bachelor Degree
Master Degree
Doctor of Philosophy
Doctor of Letters/Literature/Science

The qualifications in bold, in general, allow entry to a degree course.

Then there are OxBridge degrees such as jurisprudence, as well as varying medical and surgical qualifications.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: onebigmonkey on September 21, 2014, 05:30:47 PM
I'll throw something else into the mix, namely that Professor John Allen was Chair of Natural Philosophy at the time Mr Burns was there. It is a somewhat archaic term for what might be called Natural Sciences, of which Physics is a branch. St Andrews is a somewhat archaic place (I once went for a job interview there, as well as attended a conference)

Natural Philosophy is listed on Mr Burns' degree certificate.

I'll make it clear that I didn't call Mr Burns a liar over his academic career. I called him a liar over the content of his book.

Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Jockndoris on September 21, 2014, 05:37:26 PM
And just to confuse matters further, over here a baccalaureate is another qualification in its own right. What Burns claims to have is a Batchelor of Science degree, abbreviated to BSc.

We'll stick with that, then.  As I said, I can speak with great confidence on the subject of American higher education.   But not the U.K. system and terminology.  This is why I ask about the precise meanings of "thesis" and "degree" as they would apply to Burns' claims.

JayUtah
What tremendous value for money !
I post one scan of my 50 year old  certificate which is absolutely genuine and it puts a dozen of you into a complete panic criticising just about everything in sight including the actual paper used!   You must feel desperately threatened to react so violently and the collapse of your Apollo theories must be just round the corner ! Jockndoris

Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Luke Pemberton on September 21, 2014, 05:39:59 PM
I'll throw something else into the mix, namely that Professor John Allen was Chair of Natural Philosophy at the time Mr Burns was there. It is a somewhat archaic term for what might be called Natural Sciences.

Indeed it is. Much like Cambridge offer the Natural Sciences Tripos. It's very archaic.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Jason Thompson on September 21, 2014, 05:41:26 PM
Jock, answer the questions. The scan you posted is inconsistent with your claims, and your claims are inconsistent with reality.

I only want one question answered: why do you claim it took until 1963 for Kennedy's 1961 speech to reach you in Scotland?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Luke Pemberton on September 21, 2014, 05:46:28 PM
JayUtah

Jay obsession #1343

Quote
You must feel desperately threatened to react so violently...

Nope, but you must feel desperate that you have to obsess over Jay. Why is that I wonder?


Quote
...and the collapse of your Apollo theories must be just round the corner !

It's not a theory. It's the other side of the fence that call it a theory, you know, a conspiracy theory, the Apollo Hoax theory. No theory here. So please, present one piece of evidence, one piece that proves in your mind that NASA swindled the world.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Andromeda on September 21, 2014, 05:46:53 PM
And just to confuse matters further, over here a baccalaureate is another qualification in its own right. What Burns claims to have is a Batchelor of Science degree, abbreviated to BSc.

We'll stick with that, then.  As I said, I can speak with great confidence on the subject of American higher education.   But not the U.K. system and terminology.  This is why I ask about the precise meanings of "thesis" and "degree" as they would apply to Burns' claims.

JayUtah
What tremendous value for money !
I post one scan of my 50 year old  certificate which is absolutely genuine and it puts a dozen of you into a complete panic criticising just about everything in sight including the actual paper used!   You must feel desperately threatened to react so violently and the collapse of your Apollo theories must be just round the corner ! Jockndoris


"Panic"?!  "Violently"?!

Wow.

Your understanding of the things people say on here is the opposite to what they have actually said.  I can't even tell if you really do think that way or you are having a laugh.  What fun.

Why are you so fixated on Jay, BTW?  It's bizarre.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 21, 2014, 05:52:09 PM
It is a somewhat archaic term for what might be called Natural Sciences, of which Physics is a branch. [...]

Natural Philosophy is listed on Mr Burns' degree certificate.

Which I noted above.  That he was examined successfully on a body of sciences that may have included physics is not sufficient grounds for me to conclude that he has a specialized degree in that field.  As I said, American students receiving any bachelor of science degree must demonstrate a small amount of proficiency in a wide variety of sciences.  For example, I had to demonstrate proficiency in biology.  That isn't equivalent to a Bachelor of Science in biology.

Quote
I'll make it clear that I didn't call Mr Burns a liar over his academic career. I called him a liar over the content of his book.

His academic claims are part of the content of his book, and lately affirmed to me in writing as why he "knew in 1963 that the Moon landings were impossible."

The specific scientific allegations he makes on pages 11-13 are as I've outlined them on Clavius.  The further claim he makes was that the content of those pages (which is erroneous in the extreme) is the basis by which he was awarded a degree in physics.  This, I believe, is meant to give the reader a false impression that what he has written is what any qualified physicist would say if asked honestly about the feasibility of the Moon landings.  He insinuates in his letter that he alone had the "courage" to say something in 1969.

In 2012 Burns posted here, but made no mention of having a relevant degree.  That claim didn't arise until 2013 or 2014.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: frenat on September 21, 2014, 05:58:21 PM
And just to confuse matters further, over here a baccalaureate is another qualification in its own right. What Burns claims to have is a Batchelor of Science degree, abbreviated to BSc.

We'll stick with that, then.  As I said, I can speak with great confidence on the subject of American higher education.   But not the U.K. system and terminology.  This is why I ask about the precise meanings of "thesis" and "degree" as they would apply to Burns' claims.

JayUtah
What tremendous value for money !
I post one scan of my 50 year old  certificate which is absolutely genuine and it puts a dozen of you into a complete panic criticising just about everything in sight including the actual paper used!   You must feel desperately threatened to react so violently and the collapse of your Apollo theories must be just round the corner ! Jockndoris

Words that Burns does not appear to know the definition of:
panic
desperate
threatened
violent
collapse

Mr. Burns, again, your posts make you appear extremely delusional.  You don't appear to actually comprehend what is written by others here and your obsessive attachment to Jay is disturbing.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Echnaton on September 21, 2014, 06:00:54 PM
I post one scan of my 50 year old  certificate which is absolutely genuine and it puts a dozen of you into a complete panic criticising just about everything in sight including the actual paper used!   You must feel desperately threatened to react so violently and the collapse of your Apollo theories must be just round the corner !

Really.  You consider this a "violent" reaction?  You have the chance here to make our Apollo theories collapse, but you spend your time on this? Why do you waste your time complaining about how you are treated when you could be turning the world on its head.  That is all you have left to say?. 
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 21, 2014, 06:36:16 PM
I post one scan of my 50 year old  certificate which is absolutely genuine and it puts a dozen of you into a complete panic criticising just about everything in sight including the actual paper used!

Panic?  Everything in sight?

Hardly.  You are being soberly questioned about the continuing irregularities in your claims -- not so much by me (so your mounting obsession is somewhat comical at this point), but by others who are suitably familiar with United Kingdom academia.

You have responded only by attempting to dismiss the questions via emotionally-laden hyperbole.

Quote
You must feel desperately threatened to react so violently and the collapse of your Apollo theories must be just round the corner !

Desperation?  Violence?  Where are you getting these irrelevant, emotionally-laden terms?  More importantly:  why are you resorting to them instead of answering the specific questions concisely and factually?

The content and plausibility of your "thesis" has been addressed at length.  You have absolutely no interest in addressing the obvious errors it contains.  Yet you persist on the authority of a typewritten form to insinuate it is the basis of a degree in Physics awarded to you.

As to the "collapse of my theories ... [being] just around the corner," I note with some amusement your continued delusion.  First, they are not "theories," nor are they mine, but rather the body of knowledge and evidence accepted as fact by the world's relevant industries and scientific institutions, including your beloved alma mater.  They are the basis upon which nearly all relevant engineering has progressed since the early 1960s.  No amount of pseudo-academic handwaving or supernatural spookery makes those facts go away.

Second, collapse is not the least threatened.  You have offered your attempt to dismiss on purely scientific grounds the validity of Apollo science and engineering, and I have met it in spades.  The fact that you have no comment on it, but have devolved solely now into allegations of hysterics, tells me all I need to know about your actual confidence in any semblance of "collapse."

Third, disbelief in manned Moon missions has never been "right around the corner," but remains largely the purview of those who tend to be laughingstocks.  You dove into a 20-year-old book, praising its long-debunked nonsense as if it were some brand new epiphany.  Authors like you have been repeating this nonsense since the mid-1970s with no greater credibility now than then.  Others such as authors mentioned in the beginning of this thread have even made far more substantial attempts than you.  So your gloating is both ill-timed and poorly-aimed.

For someone who still claims to have a BSc in Physics and the wherewithal to prove man's greatest achievement a fraud, you seem quite unwilling to actually discuss the facts with qualified scientists and engineers.  Why is that?

As I have stated numerous times, I stand ready to join debate with you on the "thesis" you say got your your degree.  When you're quite finished trying to paint your critics as frightful children, perhaps you'd like to have the learned discussion this forum was set up to receive.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: nomuse on September 21, 2014, 08:56:10 PM
Hmph.

So skeptic_UK starts a thread asking for "good books" about the hoax. Gets one recommendation and is happy; doesn't feel the need to talk about that book at all, doesn't feel the need to share his interest with the actual AUTHOR of that book, who is here in the thread, and only barely reacts to mention of other books on the same subject. Why is he still here? Oh; to repeat over and over again, in case anyone missed it, that he "liked" reading that first book.

Also in the same thread is the author, who can't be bothered with his one fan, even as much as to ask what it was that said fan liked (but then, given how little that fan has communicated during his stay here, perhaps the author has the right of it!) He also seems uninterested in discussing defending or basically doing anything about his book and the reception thereof that couldn't have been accomplished equally well if he never bothered to post at all.

Is this a trend, now? Have we finally moved to a generation of hoaxies who strive to say the least possible over the longest of threads?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: LunarOrbit on September 21, 2014, 09:11:05 PM
Sorry for not commenting on this thread more quickly, it's been another busy week for me at work and I had to attend a wedding yesterday.

I just want to say that at this point there is nothing to convince me that Jockndoris and Skeptic_UK are the same person. Their IP addresses are different, and while that doesn't necessarily mean they aren't the same person, without that I have no way to be sure. I'd rather assume they are different people and be wrong than assume they are the same person and be wrong.

Having said that, I can totally understand why people made that assumption. The re-appearance of Jockndoris after two years so soon after Skeptic_UK asked for book recommendations seems planned. So I would not be at all surprised if they were in cahoots. Even if they are, it's not a violation of any rules except maybe the one against advertising products in the forum, but I will allow it as long as he responds to questions. It's the price he will have to pay for the free advertising. He should expect a great deal of heat though because he is promoting it as non-fiction and there are plenty of reasons to doubt his story.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: smartcooky on September 21, 2014, 09:12:49 PM
Who was it who said England and America were divided by a common language? :)

A version of it appeared the The Canterville Ghost by Oscar Wilde (1887).

There are a couple of versions, but I think the original is usually attributed to George Bernard Shaw...

"The United States and Great Britain are two countries separated by a common language."
        - Reader’s Digest (November 1942).

Churchill said something similar but in more "flowery" terms

"The gift of a common tongue is a priceless inheritance and it may well some day become the foundation of a common citizenship"
        - Winston Churchill, speech at Harvard University, Cambridge, Massachusetts (September 6, 1943)

 

   
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 21, 2014, 09:22:00 PM
Having said that, I can totally understand why people made that assumption.

Based on that and subsequent discussions, I'll withdraw the insinuation that they are the same person.

Quote
...I will allow it as long as he responds to questions.

And there are plenty of questions.  As I said, there are parts of the book that have nothing to do with ghosts.  Those are the ones I'm most interested in.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: RAF on September 21, 2014, 09:24:53 PM
Jock is right about one thing...

JayUtah
What tremendous value for money !

....Jay is a tremendous value... :D

Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: beedarko on September 21, 2014, 11:18:06 PM
He hasn't ignored Skeptic_UK entirely:  remember Burns said the score in the debate between Skeptic_UK and me (not between Skeptic_UK and, well, the rest of the forum) was about even.

I was referring more to the fact that he's never addressed Skeptic_UK directly.  Of course that's no proof of anything - it just seems odd to me that an author who appears so eager to elicit favorable responses from readers here, would ignore the one person who gave him what he wants.

The certificate link was interesting.  I've taken the liberty of making a side-by-side with an example from 1970.  The registrar signature, crest and overall format seem consistent, although the newer example shows some stylistic changes which wouldn't be out of order given the seven year lapse.

(http://oi62.tinypic.com/rh8nxv.jpg)
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: gillianren on September 21, 2014, 11:30:39 PM
In an American university, every baccalaureate must show a certain small proficiency in the natural sciences, such as in chemistry, astronomy, or physics.

While technically not a university, my alma mater for my BA has no graduation requirements beyond a certain number of credits.  However, if you then wish to attend the same college for a MiT (Masters in Teaching), you have to have the credits in math, science, and what have you that you would have to have done to have graduated from an ordinary college.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 22, 2014, 12:01:38 AM
I was referring more to the fact that he's never addressed Skeptic_UK directly.  Of course that's no proof of anything - it just seems odd...

Much about this conversation seems odd.  Why is it that it's so difficult to get a straightforward discussion from hoax advocates?  And while we can -- and have -- embarked on any number of distasteful and rancorous side debates along the way in this thread. I'm still most interested in discussing the testable questions raised in the book.  I've identified what those are several times.  I've written a response that's at least as detailed as the claim.  Yet neither of the people in this thread who like the book will rise to the occasion.

Quote
I've taken the liberty of making a side-by-side with an example from 1970.

I'm not content with second-guessing.  I've taken the liberty of sending the image to the St Andrews registrar.  I've also taken the liberty of sending facsimiles of the relevant pages from Burns' book to Professor Allen.  The latter I think will be eminently more informative.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: onebigmonkey on September 22, 2014, 01:52:59 AM
I'm not content with second-guessing.  I've taken the liberty of sending the image to the St Andrews registrar.  I've also taken the liberty of sending facsimiles of the relevant pages from Burns' book to Professor Allen.  The latter I think will be eminently more informative.

Maybe you should get JocknDoris to ask:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/1328868/Professor-John-F-Allen.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/1328868/Professor-John-F-Allen.html)

That one refers to John F Allen (which is the one I referred to in my post earlier), however John W Allen is still alive and kicking:

https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/graduation/laureationaddresses/archive/june2010/johnallen/ (https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/graduation/laureationaddresses/archive/june2010/johnallen/)

What are the odds!?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: smartcooky on September 22, 2014, 03:15:39 AM
I was referring more to the fact that he's never addressed Skeptic_UK directly.  Of course that's no proof of anything - it just seems odd...

Much about this conversation seems odd.  Why is it that it's so difficult to get a straightforward discussion from hoax advocates?

Its because they are unable to Jay. They simply do not have the engineering/scientific background or experience to hold an in-depth conversation at the level required. They know that if they do try to converse on the required level, they will fail miserably, and will suffer an enormous dent in their self-esteem/ego. So they do the only things they can do, the most common of which are.

1. Continually ignore questions and requests to show their evidence and explain its meaning.

2. Continually obscure, obfuscate, digress, divert, deviate away from the areas WE want discussed into areas where they feel they are on solid ground.

and when they cannot make any headway with that, along come...

3. The angry retorts usually brought on by their frustration with being unable to keep the conversation away from areas where they are out of their depth; and finally

4. The Flounce!

Hell, I am an Apollo enthusiast, and despite having the motivation to understand the science and engineering, much of what I read of the conversations among you high power guys on the forum is completely over my head).

NOTE: I don't call myself an Apollo "believer" because belief implies faith, and I don't need faith. I know the whole of the space programme (including Apollo) took place as recorded because it makes the most logical sense. The Space programme is hugely recorded, in exquisite and minute detail, and that fact alone is the greatest stumbling block for hoax believers. Importantly, NOT ONE of the bevy of HBs, including the best know ones; Kaysing, White, Sibrel, Rene and the "Blunder from Down Under", has been able to detail exactly how the Apollo missions were supposed to have been faked, They have been unable to come up with a "play-by-play"; a sequence of detailed events that had to be put together (in secret), and which matches the detail in the Apollo record and which accounts for every scientific aspect of the outcomes from Apollo (all of which are verifiable). All Hoax Believer theories are piecemeal; an inconsistency here, something odd-looking there etc, most of them are not based on sound science, and many of them are not consistent with each other.

Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: ka9q on September 22, 2014, 03:42:32 AM
The diversion into university degrees has been somewhat interesting in that I've learned something about the terms and requirements in the UK as opposed to the US.

But it's just not relevant to the original discussion. It wouldn't matter in the least even if Mr. Burns had a doctorate from MIT and we're playing into his hands by arguing about his degree rather than his abysmal writing.

During my engineering career I interviewed hundreds of job candidates. I quickly learned to pretty much ignore the candidate's university and even grades, though I might ask questions about some specific course on the transcript. I encountered many good candidates from no-name schools, and also many poor candidates from prestigious universities. (Though usually not MIT, they seem to do a much better job than most in filtering out the bozos).

I also never saw much point in asking formal quiz questions, even though many of my colleagues used them heavily. I think they're unfair; you're not in your best form during a job interview anyway.

I found that I could usually tell after just a few minutes of conversation whether a candidate knew his/her stuff or was trying to bullshit me. I'd ask about some project they'd worked on, why they did things the way they did and not some other way, or what they'd do differently if they had to do it again. Or I'd describe what we were working on and see what questions they asked. The advantage to this latter approach is that they usually didn't even realize they were being tested.

On this basis there's no question that Mr Burns is trying to bullshit us; his degree, if any, is irrelevant.

Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Jockndoris on September 22, 2014, 07:25:05 AM
I'm not content with second-guessing.  I've taken the liberty of sending the image to the St Andrews registrar.  I've also taken the liberty of sending facsimiles of the relevant pages from Burns' book to Professor Allen.  The latter I think will be eminently more informative.

Maybe you should get JocknDoris to ask:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/1328868/Professor-John-F-Allen.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/1328868/Professor-John-F-Allen.html)

That one refers to John F Allen (which is the one I referred to in my post earlier), however John W Allen is still alive and kicking:

https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/graduation/laureationaddresses/archive/june2010/johnallen/ (https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/graduation/laureationaddresses/archive/june2010/johnallen/)

What are the odds!?

Yes it certainly is a coincidence
I studied under Professor John Allen from 1960 to1963. He was Professor of Physics from 1947 to 1978.
He was born in 1908 and  died in 2001.
The current professor has almost exactly the same name and is very much alive as confirmed by his secretary this morning.
This is another ridiculous red herring where you have been shown to be wrong.
Kindly stop before you make a complete fool of yourself.
jockndoris

Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: sts60 on September 22, 2014, 07:58:18 AM
Hi, jockndoris.  I am not interested in your claimed degrees, nor your claims of ghostly encounters, nor the literary merits (or lack thereof) of your book. 

I would simply like an answer to my previous question (http://www.apollohoax.net/forum/index.php?topic=637.msg21254#msg21254): Given the patent absurdity of your claim to have played golf with one of the most famous men in human history when we was observed to be off-planet that day, exactly why do you think it merits any attention whatsoever?

Please don't tell me to read your book.  I don't need to read about a claim that is observably untrue.  Nor does the fact that some members here have chosen to pay attention to it change my question: you're touting a book that makes an obviously false - ludicrously so - claim; why should I pay any attention to it?

Also, when do you intend to defend your claims about Mars (http://www.apollohoax.net/forum/index.php?topic=177.msg5707#msg5707)?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Jason Thompson on September 22, 2014, 08:14:24 AM
Jockndoris, do you ever actually intend to answer a single question that has been put to you?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: smartcooky on September 22, 2014, 08:39:12 AM
Also, when do you intend to defend your claims about Mars (http://www.apollohoax.net/forum/index.php?topic=177.msg5707#msg5707)?

Jeez, that was so funny.

We can't get images back via radio from a spacecraft on Mars because it took seven months to get there? And this is from someone who claims to have degree in physics??

I guess when I next go down to to Dunedin on a seven hour car journey, I wont be able to text pictures back home in a few minutes because it took me seven hours to get there.  ::)

Jockndoris, do you ever actually intend to answer a single question that has been put to you?

No, because he can't, for the simple reason that, not only does he not have the answers, he has utterly no idea how to go about getting them. He doesn't even know where to start.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: dwight on September 22, 2014, 08:48:22 AM
I seriously think these hoax theories are great! They have done more to ruin the reputation of the HB side than any of my debating could. It is reassuring to get emails from former believers who have abandoned that line of thinking, thanks solely to the klanger argument blunders the HB side present. I just sit back and watch the show.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: RAF on September 22, 2014, 08:59:13 AM
Kindly stop before you make a complete fool of yourself.

Too bad you can't "practice what you preach", eh?


So why should anyone believe that Armstrong played golf with you on July 20th, 1969, when all the actual evidence (sorry, but talking to ghosts doesn't "count") indicates that he didn't?

You have demonstrated on this very thread that you have no qualms about flat out LYING, so why should anyone believe you?

Since you likely have no response to this question, I'll understand if you ignore it.

Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: RAF on September 22, 2014, 09:02:45 AM
you're touting a book that makes an obviously false - ludicrously so - claim; why should I pay any attention to it?

Oops...didn't see this before posting...essentially the same question...I'm interested in how he will ignore it.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: gwiz on September 22, 2014, 09:10:46 AM
Maybe you should get JocknDoris to ask:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/1328868/Professor-John-F-Allen.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/1328868/Professor-John-F-Allen.html)

That one refers to John F Allen (which is the one I referred to in my post earlier), however John W Allen is still alive and kicking:

https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/graduation/laureationaddresses/archive/june2010/johnallen/ (https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/graduation/laureationaddresses/archive/june2010/johnallen/)

What are the odds!?
There's also a Prof John E Allen at Kingston University, an aerodynamicist and, in an earlier life, Head of Future Projects with Hawker-Siddeley, who is well qualified to comment on Burns paper (not to be confused with the Prof John E Allen at Oxford University, who is a mathematician).
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: ineluki on September 22, 2014, 10:00:03 AM
I stand by my claim, as I've repeatedly said, that It's impossible to know if the claims in the book (that the author believes he was visited by Neil Armstrongs ghost) is true or not. Unlikely maybe, but not impossible.

You consider Harry Potter as a possible truth then as well?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: RAF on September 22, 2014, 10:07:14 AM
After reviewing the other threads that Jock has started, one fact remains constant...

Jock makes unsubstantiated claims, but he doesn't answer questions related to those claims.


Why should we listen to you, Jock, when you refuse to respond to questions?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 22, 2014, 10:26:42 AM
He was born in 1908 and  died in 2001.

Granted.  This is ostensibly to say there is no living soul who can confirm your claim that the thesis you reproduce in your book merited a Physics degree from a major university.

Quote
This is another ridiculous red herring where you have been shown to be wrong.

No, it's just yet another goose chase on which we've had to embark due to your lack of cooperation.  In your book you name the authority who allegedly confirmed your Apollo-denying "thesis" and granted you a degree for it solely as "Professor Allen."  Since you refuse to comment upon the suspicious nature of that claim, we have to reach out to your named sources (or whom we believe them to be based on your scant information) on our own.

Quote
Kindly stop before you make a complete fool of yourself.

I have no need to fear for my sanity or reputation.  I'm a reasonably well-known practitioner in the field, reasonably well published in the field of Apollo history -- and you're the one hawking ghost stories and patently absurd conspiracy theories.

We'll stop when we get answers from you, and not before.  As you know, your allegedly degree-winning "thesis" has been addressed by a professional and shown to be based instead on ignorance and supposition -- provably so.  You were diligent enough on the matter of an uninvolved professor's vitality to confirm it by telephone.  Yet you won't address the serious flaws in your work.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 22, 2014, 10:30:01 AM
Nor does the fact that some members here have chosen to pay attention to...

The deal was that if he would send me a review copy gratis, I would review it.  He sent it, and I reviewed it.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: RAF on September 22, 2014, 10:33:16 AM
This is ostensibly to say there is no living soul who can confirm your claim that the thesis you reproduce in your book merited a Physics degree from a major university.

Surely, Jock's next claim will be that he talks to Allen's ghost.

...and don't call me Shirley...
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 22, 2014, 10:54:45 AM
But it's just not relevant to the original discussion. It wouldn't matter in the least even if Mr. Burns had a doctorate from MIT and we're playing into his hands by arguing about his degree rather than his abysmal writing.

Burns actually makes two separate lines of reasoning in the book.  The primary claim is the one involving the golf game in 1969 and the later claims of supernatural confirmation.  The 1969 golf game is an allegation of fact, but stands with no testable substantiation whatsoever, and in contrast a whole raft of counter-evidence against it that Burns will not address.

The other line of reasoning appears early and vanishes quickly, but it reappears in the cover letter he sent with the book.  Burns says his short essay alleging to prove via physics that Apollo was impossible was good enough to merit a Physics degree.  Burns says, "Look, here's my degree."  But that's not proof his little essay was what got it, which is what we were trying to determine.  The connection between the paper and the degree serves only to buttress Burns' claim that the paper is probative.

Quote
During my engineering career I interviewed hundreds of job candidates. I quickly learned to pretty much ignore the candidate's university and even grades...

I never inquire about the actual grades.  I pay some attention to the university, usually to see if I have colleagues teaching there.

Like you, I pay attention almost exclusively to whether a candidate can "walk the walk."

Quote
I also never saw much point in asking formal quiz questions...

I have only one:  compute the effective data bandwidth of a 747 carrying CD-ROMs from Los Angeles to New York.  It's an exercise in requirements analysis; I don't really expect an answer.

Quote
On this basis there's no question that Mr Burns is trying to bullshit us; his degree, if any, is irrelevant.

I think I've amply demonstrated that he can't "walk the walk."  The degree itself is somewhat of a red herring.  The actual challenge sort of got kicked off the curb into the gutter.  The validity of the essay -- which Burns hopes to inflate by alleging it to a degree -- is what interests me, and I have made a suitable study of it.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: twik on September 22, 2014, 11:24:09 AM
If the "thesis" is what was reproduced on Clavius, it may well have been an undergraduate essay at St. Andrew's. However, with no calculations, just qualitative terms, it provides no proof. It just says that an undergraduate in a science program doesn't think there is a way to do something. That's scarcely proof that thousands of trained engineers would not be able to come up with a method.

"I don't think they can do it" does not equal "they can't do it." There is certainly no proof in the quotes Jay has provided that there was an insurmountable difficulty.

(With regard to the certificate, is there a reason why "natural history" is cited twice at a topic of examination? Perhaps it is simply a result of "natural history" covering a wide range of the sciences, but it looks odd.)
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Glom on September 22, 2014, 11:24:22 AM
Well this is the most embarrassing thing to come out of the UK since yesterday.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Andromeda on September 22, 2014, 11:44:18 AM
Well this is the most embarrassing thing to come out of the UK since yesterday.

Oi.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: sts60 on September 22, 2014, 01:27:13 PM
If the "thesis" is what was reproduced on Clavius, it may well have been an undergraduate essay at St. Andrew's. However, with no calculations, just qualitative terms, it provides no proof...

Whereabouts is this document on Clavius?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: onebigmonkey on September 22, 2014, 01:36:32 PM
This is where Jay dismantles it:

http://www.clavius.org/bibburnsthesis.html

Devil's advocate:

Given that the Gemini/Apollo program was in its early days when it was written, how much could a Physics professor be reasonably expected to know about it - what position would he have been in, without the benefit of our 20/20 hindsight, to judge what was correct or not?

How many of the marks were for reasonable suggestions rather than factual correctness?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: nomuse on September 22, 2014, 01:40:43 PM
This is where Jay dismantles it:

http://www.clavius.org/bibburnsthesis.html

Devil's advocate:

Given that the Gemini/Apollo program was in its early days when it was written, how much could a Physics professor be reasonably expected to know about it - what position would he have been in, without the benefit of our 20/20 hindsight, to judge what was correct or not?

How many of the marks were for reasonable suggestions rather than factual correctness?

He claims he got 17 out of 20. Are there enough missed marks to cover;

Confusing speed and velocity,
Not knowing anything about Kepler,
Not knowing orbits are ellipses...


Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 22, 2014, 04:13:26 PM
Devil's advocate:

Given that the Gemini/Apollo program was in its early days when it was written, how much could a Physics professor be reasonably expected to know about it - what position would he have been in, without the benefit of our 20/20 hindsight, to judge what was correct or not?

Well, we're not talking about a physics professor but rather that physics professor.  And according to our author, the guy is no longer around to answer questions or defend himself.  So any answer would be second-guessing.  Some professors know a whole lot about the periphery of their fields.  Others do not.

We trust university professors not to give assignments out of their ken.  We trust them to be able to grade them fairly as representatives of the body of knowledge, not just from their personal understanding which may be limited.  If Prof. Allen doesn't know much about the United States aerospace industry, then it's a poor assignment.  And his judgment of one student's performance does not equate to endorsing the content as fact.

Quote
How many of the marks were for reasonable suggestions rather than factual correctness?

We'll never know.  We'll never know if any such marks were ever actually given.  Burns reproduces the essay from memory, and simply claims he got a good enough grade on it.  He has specifically enjoined further discussion, as that would apparently violate his "Modesty is my middle name" maxim.

We have to keep in mind that the assignment was to identify challenges, not to prove they couldn't be overcome.  Graded simply as a survey of requirements, you might expect some leeway.  But Burns gets the requirements wrong, so no.

About half the purported obstacles are based on Burn's deeply flawed knowledge of orbital mechanics theory.  From any physics professor's point of view, I think, that would be inexcusable.  Especially abject ignorance of the contributions of Kepler and Newton, two of the minor deities of physics, and in its place the praise of a popular author of the time, who contributed practically nothing to the theory of the field, but only named one practical application of others' work.  So 1963 is irrelevant to that -- Burns' errors date back about 400 years on that score.  Correct those errors and the "requirements" largely evaporate.

On the rocketry part, Burns just alludes to mass ratio, says there are "problems" (but doesn't name them), and then says NASA won't be able to solve them.  The irony is that his example is one of the most successful and straightforwardly-developed rockets in history:  the Saturn 1B.  From any professor's point of view that's poor argumentation.  It's like saying all telescopes are governed by Rayleigh's and/or Dawes' law, therefore some particular telescope can't work.  In either case, as the professor, I would be looking for evidence of specific problems, and the line of reasoning that connects those to the student's conclusion.

Very well, "NASA must build a suitable rocket" would be a proper statement of a challenge to be overcome.  But then as a professor I would be wondering why the student would profess a skepticism that wasn't solicited in the assignment.

A few of Burns' claims allude to the space race, but were anachronistically naive even in 1963.  Disorientation, orbital insertion difficulty, etc. were not significant problems in 1963.  They had been solved previously.  We have no idea whether Burns' professor knew of them, but we can presume he was aware that Mercury missions had been flown several times.  I would have marked those away as solved problems, not as challenges to be faced.

Ditto the whole line of reasoning starting with communication problems and ending with "disaster" on the far side of the Moon.  NASA had already demonstrated the ability of its spaceships to operate autonomously and semi-autonomously within mission parameters.  Based on facts known in 1963, that would still have been a poor line of reasoning.  Yes, mission coordination is a challenge to be faced all the time, but the specific problem examples given were those that had already been solved.

The problems I identify in his statistical argument would have been detectable in 1963.  They aren't related to the state of the art of American aerospace, but rather to an ages-old understanding of how statistical probability is employed in quantitative reasoning.  Since the entire purpose of statistics is to replace guesswork, I'd have immediately marked off the answer for having taken a guess and then tried to apply pseudo-statistical rigor to the guess in order to dress it up to look like science.  In 1763, 1963, or 2013, that's just eminently poor reasoning.

Is systemic complexity a challenge?  Yes, always.  But how much of a challenge depends on a correct quantitative argument and a correct qualitative line of reasoning.

If I read your devil's advocacy right, you're looking for ways in which Burns' essay would have been viable in 1963 as an expression of the state of the endeavor, and have received the high mark claimed if only on the basis of the general or specific -- on the professor's part -- lack of knowledge.  Overall I would have written at the bottom, "I didn't ask whether the problems could be solved or not, but rather only for a defensible formulation of the problem."  And I'd have taken points away for answering a different question than what was asked.

So there's my first stab at putting Burns' essay in the context you suggest.

The problem is that Burns expects his essay to be so much more than a paper written in the early 1960s to survey Apollo.  He expects it to continue to stand as proof that the Moon landings, from the expert physics point of view, were impossible.  Since that's the context into which he puts it, that's the context in which we have to evaluate it.

Writing in 2013, why would an author not think to omit the failed predictions?  Given, for example, that the Apollo Guidance Computer is a nearly incontrovertible fact, why would his ignorance of similar embedded systems in 1963, and the eventual development of the computer itself, be even remotely probative in 2013?  If we propose to forgive Prof. Allen for a similar lapse of knowledge, how is that professor's grade then remotely indicative of success?  We would have an ignorant professor praising an ignorant student, and that's not the stuff from which erudition is made.

We can step back and say, Well the whole thing was just an undergraduate classroom exercise, simplified to the knowledge at hand, etc.  That would make many of Burns' claims more credible.   But then it severs the exercise from what Burns needs it to say:  that the essay represents generally applicable, generally correct information that is still pertinent in 2014.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: beedarko on September 22, 2014, 07:00:14 PM
Yes it certainly is a coincidence
I studied under Professor John Allen from 1960 to1963. He was Professor of Physics from 1947 to 1978.

Thank you for sending a free copy of your book.  I will read it tonight.

Mr. Burns, if I ask you some questions about your book in a non-confrontational manner, will you agree to answer them honestly and candidly?

Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Jockndoris on September 23, 2014, 11:40:56 AM
Yes it certainly is a coincidence
I studied under Professor John Allen from 1960 to1963. He was Professor of Physics from 1947 to 1978.

Thank you for sending a free copy of your book.  I will read it tonight.

Mr. Burns, if I ask you some questions about your book in a non-confrontational manner, will you agree to answer them honestly and candidly?


Most certainly yes   look forward to receiving them  Jockndoris
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 23, 2014, 12:15:34 PM
I think he meant he was going to ask them here and expect your answers here.  The intent is to have a public discussion of your book, insofar as it fits the topic of the forum.  The moderator has made it rather plain that the only conditions under which you can continue promoting your book here is if you, as the author, make yourself available to answer questions about it and then actually provide the answers.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: RAF on September 23, 2014, 02:54:32 PM
Most certainly yes...

Given your history of non-response, I'm sure you will understand when I say, I don't believe you will answer any questions.

But I invite you to prove me wrong.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: beedarko on September 23, 2014, 08:38:31 PM

Thank you for sending a free copy of your book.  I will read it tonight.

Mr. Burns, if I ask you some questions about your book in a non-confrontational manner, will you agree to answer them honestly and candidly?


Most certainly yes   look forward to receiving them  Jockndoris

Excellent.  I'll start with these three so as not to overwhelm you.

- On pages 11~13 you reproduce the paper you submitted to Prof. Allen, entitled "Most difficult problems the Americans have to solve if they are to put a man on the moon as challenged by their president".  Several times in this paper, you state conclusions which appear to come from someone with expertise or special knowledge of the subject matter, i.e.  "the G forces experienced would be massive and probably fatal", "the chances of them achieving a linkup are minimal", "disaster is almost inevitable", etc.  Prior to, and during your assignment, what other studies or practical experience did you engage in relative to spaceflight engineering, orbital mechanics or astrophysics?  Stated another way, how many of your stated conclusions were supported by proven competence within these specific fields of study, and do you still hold to them?

- You mention Arthur C. Clarke as one source when referring to orbital equations in your paper, crediting him with "working out the theory". Were his written works central in your research?

- On pg. 54, you recount how, in 2013, the apparition of Neil Armstrong revealed, "We knew of course that if we were found by anyone then the whole game would be up and the Moon Hoax would become public, and we would be disgraced and we wanted to avoid that at all costs", referring to, as your book describes it, a splashdown and subsequent recovery which did not go as planned.  How do you reconcile his stated need for secrecy, with your earlier account of playing golf in full view of other witnesses, and flying with him and other passengers in an airliner on July 20th, 1969? 

Thank you in advance for your answers to these questions.  As a chartered accountant of some merit, I trust your integrity will compel you to answer in the manner promised.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: skeptic_UK on September 23, 2014, 08:44:57 PM

Based on that and subsequent discussions, I'll withdraw the insinuation that they are the same person.


Glad to know I officially exist now and not just a figment of someone's imagination. Talk about having an existential crisis...

What happened to all the amateur CSI-ing of my posts that proved otherwise? guess we'll just conveniently forget about that eh?  :P
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 23, 2014, 09:02:57 PM
Glad to know I officially exist now and not just a figment of someone's imagination. Talk about having an existential crisis...
What happened to all the amateur CSI-ing of my posts that proved otherwise? guess we'll just conveniently forget about that eh?  :P

Yes, unless you'd like to keep dredging it up over and over again for rhetorical effect and thereby continue distracting from your apparent unwillingness to stick to the topic.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: smartcooky on September 23, 2014, 09:32:26 PM

Based on that and subsequent discussions, I'll withdraw the insinuation that they are the same person.


Glad to know I officially exist now and not just a figment of someone's imagination. Talk about having an existential crisis...

What happened to all the amateur CSI-ing of my posts that proved otherwise? guess we'll just conveniently forget about that eh?  :P

Firstly, any fool can post from two different IP numbers (anonymising software, connecting via TOR, proxy servers, remote wifi, connection via a 3G/4G smartphone etc), so, AFAIC, the jury is still out as to whether you are a sockpuppet of JocknDoris or just a pandering disciple of his stupidity.
 
Secondly, whether you and JocknDoris are one stupid, or two stupids in cahoots makes no difference to to me. I don't care. The bottom line for me is the stupid.

Thirdly, you could always try not being a whinging Pom, not nursing your alleged grievance, and instead answering some of the questions that have been repeatedly put to you over the several pages of this thread, which so far, you have steadfastly refused to answer!!
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: RAF on September 24, 2014, 09:33:22 AM
you could always try not being a whinging Pom, not nursing your alleged grievance, and instead answering some of the questions that have been repeatedly put to you over the several pages of this thread, which so far, you have steadfastly refused to answer!!

Darn it, smartcooky....I was going to post essentially the same thing, but you beat me too it. :) (although someone will have to tell me what a "pom" is. :D)

So, skeptic_uk...prepared to answer those questions, or will you just stop posting, because those are the only options available to you.

 
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: RAF on September 24, 2014, 09:37:42 AM
What happened to all the amateur CSI-ing of my posts that proved otherwise? guess we'll just conveniently forget about that eh?  :P

Since "I", personally, had nothing to do with any of that, what is your excuse for not answering my questions?


Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: RAF on September 24, 2014, 09:54:34 AM
Since I'm feeling helpful, today...

From the top of page 30...

... I'm fully aware we've moved past debate and are now into out and out trolling.

I've (and others) have asked you NUMEROUS times to provide some sort of reasoning that would explain WHY you believe the garbage presented in this "book".

I believe you incapable of doing that, and the more you "dodge" these questions, the more you re-enforce that belief.

As I previously posted...if you don't want to engage in debate, then don't.


Same question still stands...tell us all just why you would embrace such scientifically illiterate garbage...



Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Zakalwe on September 24, 2014, 10:45:25 AM
Glad to know I officially exist now and not just a figment of someone's imagination. Talk about having an existential crisis...

What happened to all the amateur CSI-ing of my posts that proved otherwise? guess we'll just conveniently forget about that eh?  :P

Hello skeptic_UK.

Could you please have a look at this post (http://www.apollohoax.net/forum/index.php?topic=637.msg21681#msg21681)?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: gillianren on September 24, 2014, 12:20:06 PM
What happened to all the amateur CSI-ing of my posts that proved otherwise? guess we'll just conveniently forget about that eh?  :P

Since "I", personally, had nothing to do with any of that, what is your excuse for not answering my questions?



I repeatedly said it didn't matter and I didn't care, and my questions get ignored, too.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Echnaton on September 24, 2014, 12:31:34 PM
Glad to know I officially exist now and not just a figment of someone's imagination. Talk about having an existential crisis...

What happened to all the amateur CSI-ing of my posts that proved otherwise? guess we'll just conveniently forget about that eh?  :P

Still making disparaging and presumptive comments with nothing to contribute to the conversation?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 24, 2014, 01:04:53 PM
I repeatedly said it didn't matter and I didn't care, and my questions get ignored, too.

And when, after weighing all the evidence, I jump on the perfectly reasonable bandwagon of, "no longer matters and I no longer care" -- then what happens?  There's a difference beteen how one formulates an argumentation for "I like this book for reasons, and I want you all to know that," versus "I'm trying every means at my disposal to discredit this book's critics."  I have my opinion on which one this sounds like.

No matter how many times we try to establish which parts of the book are admissible for discussion on this forum, and discuss them, Skeptic_UK deflects it either toward silopsism of the supernatural or long-irrelevant allegations of mistreatment.  Anything but the stuff you can actually discuss here.

I'm American, so I'm not sure what it means to be a "whinging Pom."  It doesn't sound complimentary, but I wager it's accurate.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Andromeda on September 24, 2014, 01:17:07 PM
I'm American, so I'm not sure what it means to be a "whinging Pom."  It doesn't sound complimentary, but I wager it's accurate.

It's a slur against the British.

Please, let's not do that - there have been a couple of similar comments on this thread and it is quite annoying.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 24, 2014, 01:38:32 PM
That spurred me to go find and article in The Economist which suggests it's both faintly racist and often too broadly applied.  So under that eminent analysis I can't endorse its use here in this case.  Good grief, it wasn't until last year I realized that "whinging" is the Commonwealth version of the American "whining."  The latter, in America, is almost universally applied only to individuals or clearly defined groups and has no connotation outside the characterization of overt behavior.  In other words, in American English it's not considered name-calling, although it is considered dismissive.

Much as I'd like to delve into English dialects and further meta-debate, it's just as off topic as sock puppetry, golf, and mid-century accounting practices.  And in the spirit of dragging this discussion -- with a leash if necessary -- back into the realm of relevance, I'd still like to hear Skeptic_UK identify anything he likes in the book that would be relevant to the topic of the forum and thread?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: darren r on September 24, 2014, 01:39:07 PM
I'm American, so I'm not sure what it means to be a "whinging Pom."  It doesn't sound complimentary, but I wager it's accurate.

It's a slur against the British.

Please, let's not do that - there have been a couple of similar comments on this thread and it is quite annoying.

More specifically, it's a slur invented by Australians to be used against British immigrants to Oz.

As a Brit myself, I've never been particularly bothered by insults or epithets against my nationality. Other nationalities just don't seem to have the regrettable flair for it that we do...

In fact, 'Brit' was the worst slur the IRA were ever able to come up with, and we've given that name to a music award!

Having said that, it is beneath us and we should avoid it.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Echnaton on September 24, 2014, 01:41:05 PM
From the Urban Dictionary: Pom

Either comes from 'prisoner of mother England' or pomigranite - a reddish coloured fruit that native Australians (Aboriginals) thought had a similar colour to the skin of sunburnt Brits.
Not meant to be an insult (as some English think for some reason), merely a nickname for our less-tanned former rulers. Nicknaming everything is very Australian.


To be taken with some amount and variety of salt.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 24, 2014, 02:57:49 PM
Excellent.  I'll start with these three so as not to overwhelm you.

Forgive me if I end up stealing a bit of your thunder.  I think these are well-chosen questions and I'd like to endorse them and perhaps elaborate a bit.

Quote
- [...] Stated another way, how many of your stated conclusions were supported by proven competence within these specific fields of study, and do you still hold to them?

This is mostly where I was going.  Certain judgments have probative value in the real world only if they come from suitable information and expertise.  The position of this paper within Burns' overall claims (if any) to relevant expertise are still unclear in my mind.  Simply waving a putatively relevant degree certificate does not establish a connection between the specific claims and relevant expertise, especially when obvious amateurisms appear in the text and other relevant experts disagree on both the method and the findings.  While we accept certain tokens as emblematic of expertise -- academic or professional -- the true expression of expertise is the ability to "walk the walk," i.e., to have learned discussions at any time with other members of the field and hold one's own in them.  That is what has been solicited here from him.

Quote
- You mention Arthur C. Clarke as one source when referring to orbital equations in your paper, crediting him with "working out the theory". Were his written works central in your research?

Now is probably the appropriate time to bring up again that I was contacted by Arthur C. Clarke's office to perform some Apollo-related research and analysis for him years ago, which I did and then discussed directly with him.  So if Burns wants to invoke Clarke in his defense, he'll have to realize that at least one of his critics here is among the experts whom Clarke consulted, and that I know for a fact he considers the Moon landings to be absolute historical fact.

Quote
- [...] How do you reconcile his stated need for secrecy, with your earlier account of playing golf in full view of other witnesses, and flying with him and other passengers in an airliner on July 20th, 1969?

I did bring this up earlier in my review.  Some of us decided to narrow the scope of our questioning to exclude it on the grounds that supernatural testimony was inherently not probative.  But the point has been raised several times that the content of the testimony, regardless of its proposed provenance, can be tried separately.

The premise of Burns' book requires the supernatural testimony to be tantamount -- in all ways having to do with memory, senses, faculty, and reason -- to testimony given by a live person.  That is, Burns' case stands only if the ghost of Armstrong is in all relevant ways to the mortal Armstrong and possess his memories, reason, and skill.  Otherwise a critic could claim that some unknown supernatural factor acted to cause the postmortem Armstrong to invent, fabricate, or otherwise imagine all that, and even to plant into Burns' mind false memories of prior events.

But if the conversation with the ghost of Armstrong must be taken as equivalent in all material respects to the conversation with a real living person, for the purpose allegedly of providing probative eyewitness testimony, then it must be subject to the same standards of credibility as that of a living person.

The inconsistency cited here in this question is only one of the many we can cite.  In one category, the story is alleged to be fact but is patently inconsistent with itself.  Armstrong is first characterized as being greatly concerned with their being discovered by someone who would recognize them, then without explanation throws caution to the wind and goes out in public to a place he says he and his colleagues frequented often.  That is, "hiding in plain sight" is invoked without any reference to what that typically is meant to convey, and the crew simply acts inexplicably in a way that increases the chances they will be discovered.

In a different category, the story alleges details and facts that are at odds with objectively determined fact.  For example, the few quotations or paraphrases alleged to come from NASA procedure manuals are wholly inconsistent both in style and substance from the copious examples of such documents.

I hasten to add that I did not invent this test.  This "local color" test is commonly used by archaeologists and document analysts to ascertain the validity of some alleged new testament.  Every testimony purports to arise from some milieu, and how well it fits what is known about that milieu is oen test of its authenticity.  So we're not just making up ways in which to dismiss this book.  We're applying common, straightforward authenticity tests.  Many of us here are intimately familiar with the tangible and intangible aspects of working with NASA, and of how NASA has historically operated.  Unlike most of the intended readers of the book, we are well positioned to be able to determine whether some given specimen fits.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: smartcooky on September 24, 2014, 03:25:00 PM
From the Urban Dictionary: Pom

Either comes from 'prisoner of mother England' or pomigranite - a reddish coloured fruit that native Australians (Aboriginals) thought had a similar colour to the skin of sunburnt Brits.
Not meant to be an insult (as some English think for some reason), merely a nickname for our less-tanned former rulers. Nicknaming everything is very Australian.

To be taken with some amount and variety of salt.

THIS!!

[Off topic but only by way of clarification]
"Pom", or "Pommie" is not a slur, any more than "yank" is a slur on Americans, "canuck" on Canadians, or "ocker" on Australians. The term "whinging Pom" comes about because many British immigrants, particularly the English, were well known in Australia and New Zealand for complaining about anything and everything they didn't like because "its not like it was back in the Old Country"

I was born in England so I guess that makes me a Pom too, I'm just not one of the "whinging" variety.
[/clarification over]
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Jockndoris on September 24, 2014, 05:17:48 PM

Thank you for sending a free copy of your book.  I will read it tonight.

Mr. Burns, if I ask you some questions about your book in a non-confrontational manner, will you agree to answer them honestly and candidly?


Most certainly yes   look forward to receiving them  Jockndoris

Excellent.  I'll start with these three so as not to overwhelm you.



Three good questions  and I am working on all three answers and want to do them justice so please be patient  jockndoris

- You mention Arthur C. Clarke as one source when referring to orbital equations in your paper, crediting him with "working out the theory". Were his written works central in your research?

  Lets start with my reply to your  Arthur C Clarke question

Arthur C Clarke
Yes   Arthur C Clarke was a well known science fiction writer with a vivid imagination and I read many of his books as a boy.     I always knew that his stories were based on fiction / fantasy so we all thought his paper on creating a so-called stationary satellite was also fantasy.   
I was amazed to learn that he had a serious side to his work when he announced he had worked out that it was possible to have an object in so called stationary orbit.
Please note that my degree was in Mathematics as well as Physics.

We studied Clarke’s equations in our Mathematics classes as well and of course they were proven to be correct in theory.   He explained how it was possible to have the object in orbit round the earth apparently remaining in the same spot because it was travelling round the centre at exactly the same speed as the earth.    Of course we didn’t have the technology then to test out his theory for quite some time.  Jockndoris



Thank you in advance for your answers to these questions.  As a chartered accountant of some merit, I trust your integrity will compel you to answer in the manner promised.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: smartcooky on September 24, 2014, 05:27:12 PM
Please note that my degree was in Mathematics as well as Physics.[/b]

The photograph of a photocopy of the degree you posted earlier makes no mention of "Physics" ergo, it is not a Physics degree!
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: nomuse on September 24, 2014, 05:38:21 PM
Um...geostationary orbit is implicit in Kepler. Just this simple; if the orbital period is defined by the distance, then there exists a distance for any arbitrary desired period. Including one that matches the rotation of the primary. (To within reasonable limits!) All that remains is to be on the equator going the same direction.

The basic idea of a satellite net for telecommunications had been around since at least 1928, and George O. Smith was crafting vacuum-tube space opera around related ideas with his "Venus Equilateral" stories before Clarke's article came out. Clark popularized use of geostationary orbits, though, and that's why we still give him credit.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Jason Thompson on September 24, 2014, 05:46:39 PM
I always knew that his stories were based on fiction / fantasy so we all thought his paper on creating a so-called stationary satellite was also fantasy.

An unlikely position for anyone in the 1960s who was even slightly scientifically literate.

Quote
We studied Clarke’s equations in our Mathematics classes as well and of course they were proven to be correct in theory.

As you have been told already, the equations are not Clarke's. Orbital equations had been around for a long time (actually centuries) before Clarke wrote Extraterrestrial Relays in 1945. No physics student of any true capability would call them Clarke's equations, and no physics professor would present them as such.

Quote
He explained how it was possible to have the object in orbit round the earth apparently remaining in the same spot because it was travelling round the centre at exactly the same speed as the earth.

Actually he used well-known equations (so well known by that time that they are not even in the body of the text anywhere but the results of the relationship between orbital velocity and distance from the centre of the Earth are presented without much fanfare) to make mention of the existence of a geostationary orbit, and most of the article (it is not a paper) is actually taken up with describing the use of such an orbit as a communications relay. Since the article was published in Wireless World in 1945, this is entirely apt.

Quote
Of course we didn’t have the technology then to test out his theory for quite some time.  Jockndoris

Your ignorance of space history knows no bounds, it seems. In 1945 the technology to reach geosynchronous orbit was indeed not present, but by the time you were supposedly studying his work it most definitely did exsist. The first geosynchronous satellite was launched in 1963, and the first geostationary one in 1964.

Why do you persist in telling these lies?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: nomuse on September 24, 2014, 05:51:30 PM
He explained how it was possible to have the object in orbit round the earth apparently remaining in the same spot because it was travelling round the centre at exactly the same speed as the earth.    Of course we didn’t have the technology then to test out his theory for quite some time.  Jockndoris


Syncom-3 was launched in 1964. In 1961 alone, between the Soviet Union and the US there were 50 launches, most into Low Earth Orbit, but two achieved High Earth Orbit (well above geosyncronous height) and one was heliocentric. Not to ignore the Venus fly-by in that same year.

But...I'm sorry, the error here lies deeper. We don't have to send a spacecraft up to verify how orbits work. Or how gravity works, or how vacuum works. It took a while for the engineering -- the power sources, the control strategies -- to get there, but the orbital principles were known by Kepler. Konstantin Tsiolkovsky could have worked out the entire flight profile of Apollo 8 if you gave him enough paper.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 24, 2014, 05:57:30 PM
No, Mr Burns.

Tell us precisely which of Clarke's equations you studied. That is, show the equations you claim Clarke derived.

What math classes? In which math textbooks from the period would I have found those equations and derivations that you allege Clarke originated?

Clarke computed the altitude of a geostationary orbit in his paper, but he used Kepler's third law to do so. He computed the rocket parameters required, but he used Tsiolkovaky's equations to do so.

Your answer merely restates your claim in a particularly evasive, hand waving fashion. Keep in mind you are talking to people here who in many cases are professional spacefarers. We know our industry and its history.

You have mentioned Clarke in connection with his major patent, which was for placing communication relays in GS orbits. That's likely because I already fed you that information. Now please tell us what GS orbits have to do with travel to the Moon.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: smartcooky on September 24, 2014, 06:02:38 PM
He explained how it was possible to have the object in orbit round the earth apparently remaining in the same spot because it was travelling round the centre at exactly the same speed as the earth.    Of course we didn’t have the technology then to test out his theory for quite some time.  Jockndoris


Syncom-3 was launched in 1964. In 1961 alone, between the Soviet Union and the US there were 50 launches, most into Low Earth Orbit, but two achieved High Earth Orbit (well above geosyncronous height) and one was heliocentric. Not to ignore the Venus fly-by in that same year.

But...I'm sorry, the error here lies deeper. We don't have to send a spacecraft up to verify how orbits work. Or how gravity works, or how vacuum works. It took a while for the engineering -- the power sources, the control strategies -- to get there, but the orbital principles were known by Kepler. Konstantin Tsiolkovsky could have worked out the entire flight profile of Apollo 8 if you gave him enough paper.
I always knew that his stories were based on fiction / fantasy so we all thought his paper on creating a so-called stationary satellite was also fantasy.

An unlikely position for anyone in the 1960s who was even slightly scientifically literate.

Quote
We studied Clarke’s equations in our Mathematics classes as well and of course they were proven to be correct in theory.

As you have been told already, the equations are not Clarke's. Orbital equations had been around for a long time (actually centuries) before Clarke wrote Extraterrestrial Relays in 1945. No physics student of any true capability would call them Clarke's equations, and no physics professor would present them as such.

Quote
He explained how it was possible to have the object in orbit round the earth apparently remaining in the same spot because it was travelling round the centre at exactly the same speed as the earth.

Actually he used well-known equations (so well known by that time that they are not even in the body of the text anywhere but the results of the relationship between orbital velocity and distance from the centre of the Earth are presented without much fanfare) to make mention of the existence of a geostationary orbit, and most of the article (it is not a paper) is actually taken up with describing the use of such an orbit as a communications relay. Since the article was published in Wireless World in 1945, this is entirely apt.

Quote
Of course we didn’t have the technology then to test out his theory for quite some time.  Jockndoris

Your ignorance of space history knows no bounds, it seems. In 1945 the technology to reach geosynchronous orbit was indeed not present, but by the time you were supposedly studying his work it most definitely did exsist. The first geosynchronous satellite was launched in 1963, and the first geostationary one in 1964.

Why do you persist in telling these lies?
Um...geostationary orbit is implicit in Kepler. Just this simple; if the orbital period is defined by the distance, then there exists a distance for any arbitrary desired period. Including one that matches the rotation of the primary. (To within reasonable limits!) All that remains is to be on the equator going the same direction.

The basic idea of a satellite net for telecommunications had been around since at least 1928, and George O. Smith was crafting vacuum-tube space opera around related ideas with his "Venus Equilateral" stories before Clarke's article came out. Clark popularized use of geostationary orbits, though, and that's why we still give him credit.


All of which would be readily apparent, i.e. the bread and butter, of someone who had a real Degree in Physics.... like this one

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/98915197/ApolloHoax/Mdegree.jpg)

NOTE THE WORDING MR BURNS





Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 24, 2014, 06:04:27 PM
There were also Molniya orbits, which are not geostationary yet require significant sophistication in orbital mechanics to set up. Those date to 1963-1965 and have nothing to do with Arthur C Clarke.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 24, 2014, 06:10:00 PM
I think we decided "Natural Philosophy" was close enough since it's the archaic word for the body of sciences that includes physics. Disingenuous of him to call it Physics in the book.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: nomuse on September 24, 2014, 06:12:32 PM
Well, there's two different horses on that cart (whether they are in front of it or behind).

The one is whether any accredited institute would give out a science degree, or even natural philosophy, based on the work described.

The other is whether that work, regardless of what academic notoriety it achieved, stands up to examination against modern understanding of the subject. Or to put it another way, does even what a bright student wrote in 1963 dictate what is possible in 1969?

As Jay points out, Jock appears to be trying to claim expertise in the subject, and let the very existence of his prior work stand as a statement of unimpeachability for his offered opinions today.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: smartcooky on September 24, 2014, 06:22:39 PM
As Jay points out, Jock appears to be trying to claim expertise in the subject, and let the very existence of his prior work stand as a statement of unimpeachability for his offered opinions today.

Well, Jock misses out on the most important parts of the issue; the fact that he is unable to "walk-the-walk" or "talk-the-talk".

I do not have a Physics degree, although I did complete and pass (with distinction) the University Entrance examination in Physics and Chemistry in 1972. I chose a different career path and ended up with qualifications in Electronics and Avionics instead.

However, even I know that it was Johannes Kepler who did the calculations that lead to our understanding or orbital mechanics, and that Arthur C. Clarke (who is one of my favourite authors) had little if anything to do with it.   

Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: nomuse on September 24, 2014, 06:48:06 PM
Heh. I don't have that much. I know just enough physics to grasp how little I know.

That means it is always a risk to say the question is so basic even I can understand it. I don't have enough background to know that. What I do know, is as basic as my understanding is, Jock's appears to be even more basic. As with many hoax believers, I think I am capable of recognizing when they make mistakes I used to make, or might make now. I do not believe I am failing to follow their reasoning because that reasoning is beyond me. I believe I am failing to agree with their reasoning because I can follow it.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 24, 2014, 08:28:37 PM
Well, Jock misses out on the most important parts of the issue; the fact that he is unable to "walk-the-walk" or "talk-the-talk".

Not at all, either one.  He's apparently still stuck on a belief that he can nominate a science-fiction writer as some sort of recognized authority in orbital mechanics, and handwave something else vague about "we studied his equations in math class," and have that be accepted by professionals and other people who know better.  When you're caught bluffing, it's usually not a good idea to try to keep on bluffing.

If I got together all my orbital mechanics texts, some of which date back to the early 1900s (i.e., "celestial mechanics"), they'd probably occupy about two feet of shelf space.  This is stuff I have had to actually use.  I know how it works and I know where it came from.  I would love to have a detailed discussion with him about what the thinks the actual problems with orbital mechanics were in 1963 and why it was though back then that orbital flight was nigh unto impossible.  But so far he can't talk or walk:  it's all just the same vague, general handwaving repeated over and over again.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: gillianren on September 24, 2014, 08:53:49 PM
Either comes from 'prisoner of mother England' or pomigranite - a reddish coloured fruit that native Australians (Aboriginals) thought had a similar colour to the skin of sunburnt Brits.

The first one is definitely wrong.  The second one might not be.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: raven on September 24, 2014, 08:57:22 PM
Well, what is he supposed to do? Be a better person and actually admit the pamphlet he sells for money is so much hogswallow?
In front of his biggest fan?
Yes, actually, he should, but will he?
I have my doubts.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: carpediem on September 24, 2014, 09:10:23 PM
Well, what is he supposed to do? Be a better person and actually admit the pamphlet he sells for money is so much hogswallow?
In front of his biggest only fan?
Fixed.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: raven on September 24, 2014, 09:56:23 PM
Well, what is he supposed to do? Be a better person and actually admit the pamphlet he sells for money is so much hogswallow?
In front of his biggest only fan?
Fixed.
Technically, his only fan is also his biggest.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 24, 2014, 09:58:30 PM
Well, what is he supposed to do? Be a better person and actually admit the pamphlet he sells for money is so much hogswallow?
In front of his biggest fan?
Yes, actually, he should, but will he?
I have my doubts.

Authors like this look for low-hanging fruit.  We aren't that.  So he'll eventually give up and go elsewhere, likely content in the delusion he has successfully promoted his book here.

He isn't supposed to do anything except to continue to demonstrate how inept he is at defending a claim to expertise sufficient to determine -- without conjuring a ghost -- that Apollo was impossible.  What happens is that his inability to support that part of his claim remains here and elsewhere on the record, for what it's worth.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: beedarko on September 25, 2014, 04:17:38 AM
  Lets start with my reply to your  Arthur C Clarke question

Arthur C Clarke
Yes   Arthur C Clarke was a well known science fiction writer with a vivid imagination and I read many of his books as a boy.     I always knew that his stories were based on fiction / fantasy so we all thought his paper on creating a so-called stationary satellite was also fantasy.   
I was amazed to learn that he had a serious side to his work when he announced he had worked out that it was possible to have an object in so called stationary orbit.
Please note that my degree was in Mathematics as well as Physics.

We studied Clarke’s equations in our Mathematics classes as well and of course they were proven to be correct in theory.   He explained how it was possible to have the object in orbit round the earth apparently remaining in the same spot because it was travelling round the centre at exactly the same speed as the earth.    Of course we didn’t have the technology then to test out his theory for quite some time.  Jockndoris

I appreciate the prompt response to this question. I will wait for your replies to the other two before formulating any followup questions.

And just to clarify, I understand your response to my question about Arthur C. Clarke's works being central in your research, to be "yes".

Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Jockndoris on September 25, 2014, 05:04:38 AM

Thank you for sending a free copy of your book.  I will read it tonight.

Mr. Burns, if I ask you some questions about your book in a non-confrontational manner, will you agree to answer them honestly and candidly?


Most certainly yes   look forward to receiving them  Jockndoris

Excellent.  I'll start with these three so as not to overwhelm you.

- On pages 11~13 you reproduce the paper you submitted to Prof. Allen, entitled "Most difficult problems the Americans have to solve if they are to put a man on the moon as challenged by their president".  Several times in this paper, you state conclusions which appear to come from someone with expertise or special knowledge of the subject matter, i.e.  "the G forces experienced would be massive and probably fatal", "the chances of them achieving a linkup are minimal", "disaster is almost inevitable", etc.  Prior to, and during your assignment, what other studies or practical experience did you engage in relative to spaceflight engineering, orbital mechanics or astrophysics?  Stated another way, how many of your stated conclusions were supported by proven competence within these specific fields of study, and do you still hold to them?

beedarko
Just so you understand where I am coming from let me explain.

These years at University were in retrospect the happiest of my life mainly because I was learning all the time and very often from lecturers who were leaders in their field. This was particularly true of Prof Allen who was an acknowledged leader in Physics both theoretical and physical.  These include both astro and nuclear physics studying both the very large and the very small.
The professor was a leader in his field particularly the study of liquids at very cold temperatures getting down to near minus 273 centigrade.

The classes I attended were under the banner of Natural Philosophy and studied the logic and understanding of everything that appears in nature, including  Electricity and its partner Magnetism, Light and optics, sound and radio waves, gravity, air, water and many more.   Spaceflight engineering was not on that list because it was at best in its infancy.

I was 19 at the time and held the Professor in some awe - his demonstrations of the laws of physics in his classroom were legendary.   He was able to show for example how beating a drum producing sound waves that blew out a candle in the other corner of the room  by bouncing off the walls and ceiling in all directions.
.
He was very much of the old school and as interested as we were in learning new things. That is why he asked us to look at the problems the Americans faced in getting to the Moon. He didn’t know the answers and of course now we know that NASA didn’t know either.
I hope this helps you to understand my position if not answering each part directly. Jockndoris

[/b]
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Jason Thompson on September 25, 2014, 05:13:35 AM
Evasion of the actual questions noted, as is your failure to repsond to the various posts replying to your comments about Arthur C Clarke and your total misrepresentation of his work and position in the annals of space flight.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Zakalwe on September 25, 2014, 05:13:39 AM

Yes   Arthur C Clarke was a well known science fiction writer with a vivid imagination and I read many of his books as a boy.     I always knew that his stories were based on fiction / fantasy so we all thought his paper on creating a so-called stationary satellite was also fantasy.   
I was amazed to learn that he had a serious side to his work when he announced he had worked out that it was possible to have an object in so called stationary orbit.

Did you know that Clarke was a founding member of the BIS? There's also good evidence that Eric Burgess probably pre-dated Clarke's ideas of geostationary satellites. Certainly Burgess's concepts for an unmanned "relay" station were more advanced than Clarkes at the time.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Jason Thompson on September 25, 2014, 05:15:18 AM
I might also mention that Jockndoris misrepresents Clarke's position as a science-fiction writer. The best science fiction, and certainly that written by Clarke, is not 'based on fantasy' but based on science, extrapolating it to what it might become in the future.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Zakalwe on September 25, 2014, 05:18:43 AM
The classes I attended were under the banner of Natural Philosophy and studied the logic and understanding of everything that appears in nature, including  Electricity and its partner Magnetism, Light and optics, sound and radio waves, gravity, air, water and many more.   Spaceflight engineering was not on that list because it was at best in its infancy.


Given that, I am amazed that you profess to not understand how images from Mars could not be sent back in a matter of minutes. I assume that you are as equally mystified by the workings of TV and radio?

There is no way that they would be able to get high quality photographs half way across our solar system which took the craft 7 months to cross.

It took the craft 7 months to get to Mars at full speed and we are supposed to believe that they can just beam back at the first attempt  pictures of exquisite quality of a near perfectly flat landing area.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Zakalwe on September 25, 2014, 07:15:08 AM
I apologise for the thread drift, but i would ask Mr. Burns what his thoughts are on the first images from the Indian Mars probe?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-29357438

The probe  successfully entered Mars orbit on September 24th and was launched in November 2013. The first images were published today.

http://www.spaceflight101.com/mars-orbiter-mission-updates.html

Is this mission also a hoax Mr. Burns?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: RAF on September 25, 2014, 07:59:39 AM
He was very much of the old school and as interested as we were in learning new things. That is why he asked us to look at the problems the Americans faced in getting to the Moon. He didn’t know the answers...

He didn't?...sounds like he wasn't much of a teacher, relying on his students to prepare his lesson plan.


Quote
...and of course now we know that NASA didn’t know either.

The world's scientists not only knew it "could be done" but participated in Apollo.

Also, you are starting to sound like a Moon Hoax bat when you say things like "now WE know".

The only "we" here, is you.


Quote
I hope this helps you to understand my position if not answering each part directly.


See, here's the thing...

When you post stuff like this, it is so far removed from reality, an extraordinary claim as it were, that we need a whole lot more than your posted "assurances" that what you say has even a passing acquaintance with reality.

Now do you understand why we don't believe?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Echnaton on September 25, 2014, 08:05:34 AM
Either comes from 'prisoner of mother England' or pomigranite - a reddish coloured fruit that native Australians (Aboriginals) thought had a similar colour to the skin of sunburnt Brits.

The first one is definitely wrong.  The second one might not be.
Urban dictionary definitions are questionable, at best.  The etymologies are unreliable and are likely to be made up, retrofit type.  Such as the shortening of a phrase by making an acronym. I've read that practice started only 60 or so years ago.   So its no surprise on the first.  I always assumed "Pom" had something to do with potatoes, from French, but pomegranate seems a good possibility.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: sts60 on September 25, 2014, 08:15:16 AM
Jockndoris, I'd still like an answer to my question:  Since Neil Armstrong was observed to be off-planet that day, why should I give any consideration whatsoever to your absurd claim to be playing golf with one of the most famous and instantly recognizable human beings in history?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: ineluki on September 25, 2014, 08:23:38 AM
Given that, I am amazed that you profess to not understand how images from Mars could not be sent back in a matter of minutes.

Nice catch...

Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: gwiz on September 25, 2014, 09:40:36 AM
You have mentioned Clarke in connection with his major patent, which was for placing communication relays in GS orbits.
I don't think Clarke actually patented the idea.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Bryanpoprobson on September 25, 2014, 11:08:37 AM
Sorry devils advocate here, isn't the very name of the thread, "Good books about the moon landings hoax" a misnomer? ;)
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Andromeda on September 25, 2014, 11:22:38 AM
Yeah, but it was started by a hoaxie.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Echnaton on September 25, 2014, 11:25:42 AM
Jockndoris

Do you think either of the two men you invoke in support of your belief, AC Clarke and Prof. Allen, would agree with you that the Apollo missions did not travel to the moon?

I ask this and expect an answer because your appreciation for Clarke and association with Allen are the topic you have introduced as support to the exclusion of any substantive discussion of physics, engineering or history. 
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 25, 2014, 11:26:52 AM
Just so you understand where I am coming from let me explain.

Very little of this explanation addresses the followup questions from your previous answer.  In fact, it just drifts farther into nostalgic irrelevancy.

Quote
Spaceflight engineering was not on that list because it was at best in its infancy.

That would come as a great surprise to the American and Soviet industries who were putting the finishing touches on the second generation of manned spacecraft as you wrote.  However, it is good of you finally to confirm that your paper discussing space engineering did not benefit from any actual study of the subject.

While you personally may not have studied very much of it, those who attended engineering schools in the early 1960s -- the Golden Age of aerospace -- learned quite a lot of it.  And those of us who attended engineering schools subsequently learned quite a lot of how Apollo was created, and then we built upon it.  So you may want to consider that your non-expertise is not probative on the subject of Apollo's feasibility.

Quote
I was 19 at the time...

At what time, excatly?  Your paper refers to the lunar orbit rendezvous mission profile, which was not selected until the spring of 1962.  Hence you could have written about it in 1963, but not in 1960 or 1961 when you would have been 19.

Keep in mind that you're still claiming this paper got you a degree, and its position within your overall claims to expertise is still quite vague.  You've already insinuated that St Andrews is in the habit of awarding degrees for work in which neither the student nor the professor is proficient.  After how many years of study does your alma mater grant degrees?

Quote
He was very much of the old school...

Yet somehow he forgot to teach you that Kepler and Newton were the fathers of the study of planetary motion, not Arthur C Clarke.  I find it difficult to believe that an old-school natural philosophy professor at a prestigious university never once mentioned Newton's Principia -- you know, the iconic, monumental, game-changing, founding work of natural philosophy.

Instead, you tell us, your "math classes" focused on the work of a then contemporary science fiction author who contributed nothing to the field.  And somehow, amid all this "new" science, you didn't pay much attention to the single most monumental application of physics the species has witnessed to date:  the attempt to land a man on another world.

Quote
He didn’t know the answers and of course now we know that NASA didn’t know either.

Non sequitur.  As I demonstrated, NASA did in fact know them.  You were simply unaware of them, and now you allege your professor was too.  There is no need to tarnish the memory of Prof. Allen with your sins.  You have reproduced what you now confess was a paper written in ignorance of the facts.  You reproduce it now 50 years later with absolutely no revision or any consideration that it has been amply proven false by prior, contemporary, or subsequent achievements.

You can be forgiven as a 19- or 21-year-old college student for writing a paper on a subject you knew nothing about.  There is little forgiveness for holding it up a generation later and claiming expertise on the basis of it.  And no forgiveness for suggesting that the world's scientific community entertains any doubt on the authenticity of Apollo.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 25, 2014, 11:28:57 AM
I don't think Clarke actually patented the idea.

Correct, my mistake.  He is credited as its inventor, but he never patented the invention.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 25, 2014, 11:29:58 AM
Do you think either of the two men you invoke in support of your belief, AC Clarke and Prof. Allen, would agree with you that the Apollo missions did not travel to the moon?

In one of those cases I know the answer.  I don't have to guess.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: gillianren on September 25, 2014, 11:43:24 AM
Urban dictionary definitions are questionable, at best.  The etymologies are unreliable and are likely to be made up, retrofit type.  Such as the shortening of a phrase by making an acronym. I've read that practice started only 60 or so years ago.   So its no surprise on the first.  I always assumed "Pom" had something to do with potatoes, from French, but pomegranate seems a good possibility.

Actually, one of the tests I have for any new book of etymology is to look up "posh" and see if they claim it's an acronym.  If they do, they've done shoddy research and I don't get the book.  Much before "radar," and the best assumption is that it isn't an acronym.  Heck, the word "acronym" dates to 1943!

This is the importance of verifying research, of course.  To tie it back to the actual discussion at hand, it isn't enough to just claim something to be true.  If anyone could produce even one document that used the expression "Prisoner of Mother England," that folk etymology might be accurate.  However, the only references are explanations of where the term came from, not evidence the expression was ever used.  You can't just state a thing and have legitimate researchers believe it, no matter what field you're in.  Or obviously you can, because that claim appears an awful lot.  But you shouldn't be able to!
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 25, 2014, 11:51:14 AM
Given that, I am amazed that you profess to not understand how images from Mars could not be sent back in a matter of minutes. I assume that you are as equally mystified by the workings of TV and radio?

A wise choice, then, to go into accountancy, since he clearly had no future in physics, science, or engineering.  An unwise choice, however, to lately profess expertise in physics when one's ignorant skepticism of straightforward practical applications of it is already a matter of record.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Andromeda on September 25, 2014, 12:28:17 PM
I showed the certificate to an academic, who said it looks like Jockndoris might have done a two-year course at most, and certainly nowhere near enough to to be considered an "expert" by any stretch.

Given that Jockndoris claims authority on the basis of having this "degree", I think the nature and authenticity of it are important to consider.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 25, 2014, 12:42:21 PM
As I said, the book has two lines of reasoning.  One is, "I played golf with Neil Armstrong while he was supposed to be on the Moon, and his ghost confirmed it."

The other is, "As a physics student in 1963 I proved that landing on the Moon by 1969 was impossible."  In support of that claim he reproduces his recollection of the paper.  In support of the validity of the paper, he alleges his professor gave him "a good degree" on the basis of it.  In support of that claim he provides his degree certificate.

The problem is that all these are just dots and the proof we need would reside in the connections he proposes between these dots.

He's already admitted that his course of study precluded the relevant subjects, and he's already admitted that neither he nor his physics professor were proficient.  So the probative value of the paper itself is nil at this point.  And there has never been any evidence to connect the paper to the degree.  That he got a BSc from St Andrews in 1963 is all that he can document.  Its relevance to his Apollo claims remains tenuous at best.

In scrutinizing this line of reasoning we have to keep in mind that the claims made in the paper are paramount.  It's very easy to get sidetracked into looking at dots instead of lines, and at looking at the dots that are thrown at us rather than the dots that matter.

The dot that matters is that the paper is abject rubbish on its face.  It is wildly incorrect on the subject of orbital motion, admittedly uninformed on the subject of engineering, and entirely speculative in all other respects.  While we can say with reasonable certainty that it did not earn him a relevant degree, we don't need to say that.  We don't need to unwind his chain of evidence and say that because the paper is a shambles it doesn't merit a degree.  His argument inferred the opposite -- the degree came from the paper, therefore the paper must be good.  We can determine that the paper is no good by examination.  QED.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Echnaton on September 25, 2014, 12:46:59 PM
Do you think either of the two men you invoke in support of your belief, AC Clarke and Prof. Allen, would agree with you that the Apollo missions did not travel to the moon?

In one of those cases I know the answer.  I don't have to guess.

It is a pretty good bet that all but one or two contributors to this thread know the same and would be willing to state it publicly if needed.  As to the other, there is sizable probability that no answer can be documented.  But hey, if that's what Jockndoris offers as support lets see how far he is willing to go with it or how far he is willing to go in dodging questions. 
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 25, 2014, 01:00:12 PM
It is a pretty good bet that all but one or two contributors to this thread know the same and would be willing to state it publicly if needed.

I mean I know for a fact what one of his alleged sources believes about the authenticity of the Apollo missions.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: onebigmonkey on September 25, 2014, 01:11:00 PM
I did it.

I  bought 'Dark Moon', 2nd hand, for peanuts. It arrived today.

Know thine enemy and all that, but I feel dirty.

Thankfully a copy of the Apollo 16 PSR arrived as well to make it better.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 25, 2014, 01:24:56 PM
I  bought 'Dark Moon', 2nd hand, for peanuts. It arrived today.

The first thing you notice is that it is most definitely not a pamphlet.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Jason Thompson on September 25, 2014, 03:13:53 PM
Though the portion of page count dealing with Apollo might as well be, while the rest goes off on some very strange tangents....
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: onebigmonkey on September 25, 2014, 03:19:29 PM
The book may have cost me very little, but the new reading glasses prescription will be expensive - teeny tiny print!!

On the subject of proper books about Apollo, I have a notification from Abebooks that a 2nd hand copy of "Live TV from the moon" is available.

For roughly twice the cost I could get for from Amazon!
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 25, 2014, 03:47:37 PM
Though the portion of page count dealing with Apollo might as well be, while the rest goes off on some very strange tangents....

I can't agree more.  It's as if they wrote five books on five different fringe theories, dumped the pages into a bucket, stirred them around a bit, fished out the pages in random order, and bound them into Dark Moon.  One of my early associates in debating Bennett and Percy directly opined that the long, rambling text was meant to distract from the several contradictions in their own arguments.  You have to read so much you forget what they said 20 pages ago that's at odds with the page you're on.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: smartcooky on September 25, 2014, 03:48:57 PM
Lets start with my reply to your  Arthur C Clarke question

Arthur C Clarke
Yes   Arthur C Clarke was a well known science fiction writer with a vivid imagination and I read many of his books as a boy.     I always knew that his stories were based on fiction / fantasy so we all thought his paper on creating a so-called stationary satellite was also fantasy.

I was amazed to learn that he had a serious side to his work.....

So, you were a fan of his, and yet you had no idea that he wrote over a dozen non-fiction books spanning from 1950 to 1963, the time when you were supposedly doing your alleged physics degree.

Interestingly, one of those books, written in 1954 was "The Exploration of the Moon" in which he examines some of the methods of getting to the moon, addressing some of the very things that you claimed nine years later were impossible. 

Quote
when he announced he had worked out that it was possible to have an object in so called stationary orbit.

You seem to still be labouring under the misapprehension that it was Clarke who first thought of the idea of a geostationary orbit. IT WAS NOT!!! The idea was first mooted in 1928 by Herman Potocnik, an Austro-Hungarian rocket scientist, in a book called "The Problem of Space Travel - The Rocket Motor". Science fiction author George O. Smith also published the idea in his 1928 "Venus Equilateral" series.

What Clarke did was take this idea and add the idea of a radio relay station. He presented a paper to Wireless World about it in 1945. Here is that paper...

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/98915197/ApolloHoax/extra_terrestrial_relays._clarke.wirelessworld._octubre_1945_6cf53078.pdf

Clarke is actually credited with "inventing" the communications satellite. It was Harold Rosen, an engineer at Hughes Aircraft Co, who is credited with "inventing" the geostationary satellite. He designed the first operational geosynchronous satellite, Syncom 2, which was launched on a Delta B rocket from Cape Canaveral July 26, 1963, around the time you, your classmates and your professor (according to you anyway) were still believing that GEO was "fantasy"

Quote
We studied Clarke’s equations in our Mathematics classes as well and of course they were proven to be correct in theory.   He explained how it was possible to have the object in orbit round the earth apparently remaining in the same spot because it was travelling round the centre at exactly the same speed as the earth

What's to study? In the appendix, Clarke does mention the Tsiolkovsky rocket equation, V = v logeR (more correctly V=v logn M0/M1), but that was well known as it had been around since the late 1890's. He also quotes Re = R(α+g)/α, a basic orbit equation that has been (AFAIK) around since Kepler. The only other equation I can find in his paper relates to the field strength of a half-wave dipole.... e=6.85√p/d . This is to do with the communications side of the issue and has nothing to do with orbital mechanics.

Sure he has a few nice diagrams and sketches, but nowhere does he mention any of the equations for Kepler's laws of planetary motion, the circular motion principles of satellites, the mathematics of satellite motion or the energy relationships for satellites, all of which are the types of equations you would need to look at, and none of which can be credited in any way as "Clarke's Equations"!!

Quote
Of course we didn’t have the technology then to test out his theory for quite some time.

It was available early in the same year that you claim to have been doing your degree, and the principles were well understood many years before that! You don't have to actually send a satellite into GEO to show that it works!!!
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 25, 2014, 04:51:31 PM
...addressing some of the very things that you claimed nine years later were impossible.

In fact there was quite a great deal of interest and investigation in the opportunities for space afforded by the practical rocketry developed during the war.  It was only the burning desire of all the rocketry inner circle since the 1920s!  And now with wartime dollars, pounds, rubles, and Reichsmarks having been copiously expended to develop it, it was being put to practical peacetime use in the 1960s.  Burns can't decide whether or not he studied any of this.  He asserts he discussed "Clarke's equations," but apparently there was no discussion of any of the practical machinery being built during that time to do the things Burns maintains were impossible.

In fact, Burns and his professor seem completely oblivious to any of the spacefaring being done at that time, except apparently Apollo (as a classroom exercise in the blind leading the blind).  Why the sudden interest in Apollo without any interest in any other spacefaring anywhere else for any other purpose?

Quote
Clarke does mention the Tsiolkovsky rocket equation, V = v logeR (more correctly V=v logn M0/M1),

I assume you meant V=v loge M0/M1.  We haven't decided yet on a good typographical convention for the handwritten ln.  But yes, that's a more common formulation.  We also habitually want to designate a shorthand for the mass ratio, since it refers both to a quantity and a concept -- which we typically embolden as MR.  But where typography permits, the M and R should be elided.  Obviously I don't know how to do that using Unicode or HTML.

Don't worry, your math is sound enough for this forum.  I notice we've yet to see a single equation of any kind from our illustrious physicist-cum-accountant.  He describes his study of physics as the happiest time of his life, and his professor (wouldn't he have had several?) as a delightful man and mentor.  Yet having passed his exams and been awarded a BSc when it was a great time to be a physicist, he marches straight off to the counting-house to write accounting programs in a language that wouldn't be invented for 15 more years, on computers that somehow existed despite his collegiate claim that they were invariably large and heavy -- and wouldn't run Quick Basic anyway.

Quote
He also quotes Re = R(α+g)/α, a basic orbit equation that has been (AFAIK) around since Kepler.

Not quite; it's an attempt to compute the practical mass ratio (R in his formulation of Tsiolkovsky) for his hypothetical rocket that accounts for acceleration lost during initial ascent.  The term (a+g)/a is meant to be a scaling factor to the theoretical mass ratio derived via Tsiolkovsky for some given v and V.  It says nothing more complicated than "be sure to add the acceleration required merely to overcome gravity."  But that's valid only for constant-mass sounding rockets.  It doesn't really apply here, or really anywhere.  But it's a good enough first-order approximation to be published in a radio magazine.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Andromeda on September 25, 2014, 05:05:55 PM
Great post, smartcooky.


In fact, Burns and his professor seem completely oblivious to any of the spacefaring being done at that time, except apparently Apollo (as a classroom exercise in the blind leading the blind).  Why the sudden interest in Apollo without any interest in any other spacefaring anywhere else for any other purpose?

Good point.  Jockndoris, does "Mercury" mean anything to you in this context?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: smartcooky on September 25, 2014, 05:08:03 PM
I assume you meant V=v loge M0/M1.

Yes

ETA: Question. Are Loge and Logn not the same, i.e. "n" stands for "natural" or "napierian" and "e" stands for "base e", 2.718281828, or are we just talking nomenclature here.

(its been a long time!)

Not quite; it's an attempt to compute the practical mass ratio (R in his formulation of Tsiolkovsky) for his hypothetical rocket that accounts for acceleration lost during initial ascent.  The term (a+g)/a is meant to be a scaling factor to the theoretical mass ratio derived via Tsiolkovsky for some given v and V.  It says nothing more complicated than "be sure to add the acceleration required merely to overcome gravity."  But that's valid only for constant-mass sounding rockets.  It doesn't really apply here, or really anywhere.  But it's a good enough first-order approximation to be published in a radio magazine.

OK, so, without looking it up, I saw Re = R(α+g)/α in Clarke's paper and assumed it was one of the many equations used to calculate orbital speed, acceleration, period etc. I should have checked; here would have done.....

http://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/circles/Lesson-4/Mathematics-of-Satellite-Motion

....these are the sorts of equations I would have expected to find in Clarke's paper as the type Burns claims to have "studied"

As it turns out, Clarke's paper contains no orbital mechanical equations whatsoever!

So, Mr Burns, care to try again... another lie perhaps!?

Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: nomuse on September 25, 2014, 05:20:40 PM
Gah. You got me with both of those. I also skimmed the "Re = R(α+g)/α" and thought I was seeing a manipulation of "F = G m1m2/r^2" and maybe a little "F = ma." Foolish me. I also have no idea how to write "natural log" in any kind of text, so I understood what smartcooky was after by using "n."
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 25, 2014, 05:37:54 PM
OK, so, without looking it up, I saw Re = R(α+g)/α in Clarke's paper and assumed it was one of the many equations used to calculate orbital speed, acceleration, period etc. I should have checked; here would have done....

Quite understandable, folks, given that R, a, and g are the commonly used symbols in the orbital mechanics (and analytical geometry) to describe the geometry of ellipses.  In EES, we prefer g0 to describe the constant referring to the acceleration due to Earth's gravity.  It's often used, as in the formulation of specific impulse Isp, as a system-agnostic method of relating the unit of mass to the unit of force, specifically of gravity.  E.g., F = g0 m.  This is why specific impulse is the same value in EES as SI.

I want to point out that earlier, when I discussed Burns' disastrous foray into orbital motion, he told us he was happy to have educated us on some things we didn't understand about space travel.  I now find that abysmally presumptuous under his new revelation that such things weren't part of his study.  They are part of my study, and my professional practice.  So a gracious apology would be in order, as well as a concession that he does not have expertise commensurate to his critics, by his own admission.

Quote
As it turns out, Clarke's paper contains no orbital mechanical equations whatsoever!

Correct.  It contains two equations having to do with rocketry (one of them rather useless in practice, and neither having to do with orbiting rockets) and one having to do with electromagnetic field theory.  None having to do with orbital mechanics.  As I mention at Clavius, he presents the orbital parameters graphically, not analytically.  And they are simply Kepler/Newton values.

Kepler worked empirically.  He noted that the motion of orbiting objects behaved according to certain numerical relationships.  But he had no answer for why they did, other than to derive it from the behavior of conic-section geometry.  So his equations are numerically predictive, but Kepler's discussion was mostly observational.  Newton, in Principia, first formulated his theories of dynamics -- his Laws of Motion.  Then he formulated his theory of gravitation.  Then, in a bold stroke, he combined the two to derive Kepler's equations of orbital motion analytically rather than empirically.  But this is why you have to cite both of them.  Kepler shows that his equations predict reality; Newton explains why.

For Burns to have walked out the door of St Andrews with a BSc in physics(?), having been taught in an old-school "classical" fashion, without this having been the bread and butter of his first year is colossally incredible.  To present orbital motion without laying that foundation is like teaching 19th century French cooking and not mentioning Escoffier.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Bob B. on September 25, 2014, 05:44:29 PM
ETA: Question. Are Loge and Logn not the same, i.e. "n" stands for "natural" or "napierian" and "e" stands for "base e", 2.718281828, or are we just talking nomenclature here.

I've never seen logn used before.  I've always seen either loge or ln.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Andromeda on September 25, 2014, 05:51:48 PM
ETA: Question. Are Loge and Logn not the same, i.e. "n" stands for "natural" or "napierian" and "e" stands for "base e", 2.718281828, or are we just talking nomenclature here.

I've never seen logn used before.  I've always seen either loge or ln.

Same here.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Bob B. on September 25, 2014, 05:53:11 PM
It's often used, as in the formulation of specific impulse Isp, as a system-agnostic method of relating the unit of mass to the unit of force, specifically of gravity.

Which I've had to explain numerous times when I get questions like, "but if we're orbiting the moon, shouldn't we use the value of g for the moon?"
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: beedarko on September 25, 2014, 05:58:53 PM
..he marches straight off to the counting-house to write accounting programs in a language that wouldn't be invented for 15 more years, on computers that somehow existed despite his collegiate claim that they were invariably large and heavy -- and wouldn't run Quick Basic anyway.

My interpretation of this statement is a bit different, in that I don't believe he was referring to the 1960's when he wrote of computing with QuickBasic.

At the beginning of chapter 8 on page 33, Burns writes, "I am setting you down gently in 1990 first.  That was just 21 years onwards...".  He goes on about tax returns and his assistant Alison, and a few paragraphs later he mentions using QuickBasic, presumably during this same time period, which would be consistent with the history of that particular piece of software and the PCs which ran it.  I began using QuickBasic in 1989 on my clunky old 286 machine,and I believe it'd been around for a few years even then.

Mr. Burns, will you elaborate any further and more specifically about the questions I posed, or are you satisfied that your answers adequately addressed them?

Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: smartcooky on September 25, 2014, 06:28:37 PM
I've never seen logn used before.  I've always seen either loge or ln.

Aha! Its a sort of mathematical "mixed metaphor" then; you use ln or use loge but you don't mix them up.

Thanks Bob. As I said, its been a long time. Last time I used logarithms regularly "in anger" was when I was still training as an Avionics Engineer in the 1970s. It was out of a printed table of logs, and we did the calculations using a slide rule!!!
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 25, 2014, 07:30:17 PM
Aha! Its a sort of mathematical "mixed metaphor" then; you use ln or use loge but you don't mix them up.

Technically, logn is simply "logarithm to the base n," where n could be any relevant number.  But we know it's not what you meant.  ;D

To make matters worse, Re in Clarke's paper is not "R sub e", where e would be some semantic qualifier.  No, it's to be read "R base e,"  If you work Clarke's arithmetic for the mass ratios he gives (20 and 37, respectively), you realize that

Re = R ( a + g ) / a

should really be

loge R′  =  { ( a + g ) / a }  loge R

if it's going to match his arithmetic.  But Clarke's rocketry suffers from more than just unclear notation.  It's incomplete and theoretically problematic.  Further, the figures are worked for near Earth orbit, not geostationary orbit.

Clarke plots geodetic altitude, orbital period, and orbital speed on a graph.  From the graph he plausibly derives 8 km s-1 as the required orbital speed for a near-earth satellite.  But then he appears to plug that into Tsiolkovsky's equation as V.  Yes, that would compute the parameters of a rocket needed to achieve the proper orbital speed along the orbit for the desired orbit.  But it ignores the rocketry problem of getting to that altitude in the first place.

Then when he tries to derive the effective mass ratio of a rocket departing Earth, by tweaking the theoretical mass ratio to account for g0, he uses the same 8 km s-1 figure (i.e., "downrange" orbital speed) plus a practical margin, but then seems to ignore that a and g0 are vector quantities, and the directions don't match.  Trying to go that fast downrange, once you get to orbit, doesn't combine with trying to go that speed upward (which doesn't even make sense) while fighting gravity.  The adjustment applies only to sounding-rocket type missions where the rocket goes straight up and doesn't try to enter Earth orbit.

In other words, Clarke doesn't really express much correct quantitative understanding either of how to get to orbit.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 25, 2014, 07:37:46 PM
My interpretation of this statement is a bit different, in that I don't believe he was referring to the 1960's when he wrote of computing with QuickBasic.

Read p. 16.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Luckmeister on September 25, 2014, 07:41:10 PM
Jockndoris, do you have any idea how repulsive and hurtful everything about your ghost nonsense would be to Armstrong's surviving family? Or do you give a damn?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: beedarko on September 25, 2014, 08:02:54 PM
Read p. 16.

Wooops, yes that is problematic.  I wonder if he wasn't perhaps working on some earlier version and maybe misremembering what it was called.  I'm only a half-centenarian and often times my memory has similar glitches.

Mr. Burns, would you care to address the "QuickBasic" confusion?

Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 25, 2014, 08:11:11 PM
There was only one generally available computer-based accounting system until the mid-1970s -- 9PAC.  Everything before then was written purely in-house, and generally required IBM equipment.  9PAC also required IBM "big iron."  It would be the large, heavy computer Burns thought would have to go on a spacecraft.

Granted this may just be an editing error.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Bob B. on September 25, 2014, 08:16:08 PM
I wonder if he wasn't perhaps working on some earlier version and maybe misremembering what it was called.  I'm only a half-centenarian and often times my memory has similar glitches.

I remember using the original BASIC in the mid-70s.  According to Wikipedia it first appeared in 1964.  It looks like other forms (BASICA, GW-BASIC) appeared in the early 80s, with QuickBasic being introduced in 1985.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Tanalia on September 25, 2014, 08:51:10 PM
Urban dictionary definitions are questionable, at best.  The etymologies are unreliable and are likely to be made up, retrofit type.  Such as the shortening of a phrase by making an acronym. I've read that practice started only 60 or so years ago.   So its no surprise on the first.  I always assumed "Pom" had something to do with potatoes, from French, but pomegranate seems a good possibility.

Actually, one of the tests I have for any new book of etymology is to look up "posh" and see if they claim it's an acronym.  If they do, they've done shoddy research and I don't get the book.  Much before "radar," and the best assumption is that it isn't an acronym.  Heck, the word "acronym" dates to 1943!

This is the importance of verifying research, of course.  To tie it back to the actual discussion at hand, it isn't enough to just claim something to be true.  If anyone could produce even one document that used the expression "Prisoner of Mother England," that folk etymology might be accurate.  However, the only references are explanations of where the term came from, not evidence the expression was ever used.  You can't just state a thing and have legitimate researchers believe it, no matter what field you're in.  Or obviously you can, because that claim appears an awful lot.  But you shouldn't be able to!
I thought I had added a note on this topic but I guess the computer ate it...

The derivation I had heard for this was the use of rhyming slang (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhyming_slang) -- the wiki article mentions the pommy variant.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 25, 2014, 08:54:18 PM
I remember using the original BASIC in the mid-70s.  According to Wikipedia it first appeared in 1964.  It looks like other forms (BASICA, GW-BASIC) appeared in the early 80s, with QuickBasic being introduced in 1985.

I took a compiler design class from the guy who invented Tiny Basic.  I remember doing a few silly things in GW-BASIC, but almost all my programming at the time was being done in Fortran.  You know, the language for engineers with real problems.  ;D
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Bob B. on September 26, 2014, 12:00:13 AM
I took a compiler design class from the guy who invented Tiny Basic.  I remember doing a few silly things in GW-BASIC, but almost all my programming at the time was being done in Fortran.  You know, the language for engineers with real problems.  ;D

Yeah, I did Fortran in college - using punch cards (c.1977).  I played around with QuickBASIC quite a bit in the 90s, mostly writing astronomy programs.  I still occasionally use one or two of those old programs (QuickBASIC runs in XP Mode).  Today I can usually accomplish what I need to using Excel.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: smartcooky on September 26, 2014, 12:10:07 AM
Actually, one of the tests I have for any new book of etymology is to look up "posh" and see if they claim it's an acronym.  If they do, they've done shoddy research and I don't get the book.

Yep. contrary to popular belief, it does not come from "Port Out, Starboard Home". That was made up after the fact.

My father told me that the term "Posh" came the surname of a character in Punch magazine near the end of the 19th century. The character was the type of person known as a "swell", a pompous person of elevated social standing.


"Posh" started off being used as a noun, with such people being referred to as "a posh" e.g.

"That David Smith is such a posh"

but gradually, the "a" was dropped, and posh became an adjective

"That David Smith is so posh"

Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: smartcooky on September 26, 2014, 02:43:37 AM
I took a compiler design class from the guy who invented Tiny Basic.  I remember doing a few silly things in GW-BASIC, but almost all my programming at the time was being done in Fortran.  You know, the language for engineers with real problems.  ;D

Yeah, I did Fortran in college - using punch cards (c.1977).  I played around with QuickBASIC quite a bit in the 90s, mostly writing astronomy programs.  I still occasionally use one or two of those old programs (QuickBASIC runs in XP Mode).  Today I can usually accomplish what I need to using Excel.

I also did a little bit of Fortran programming at school but by the 1980's I was right into Apple computers. All this talk of BASIC has reminded me of something that I was involved in during the 1980s, so with the indulgence of members, I would like to go off topic and tell a story...

In late 1986, I started writing a BASIC program for the Canterbury Astronomical Society (of which I was a member). It was for recording photometric data using a DOS 3.3 equipped Apple ][+, and it was based on an idea by Russell Genet, an astronomer well known at that time for his robot telescopes.

What we had was a Philips photomultiplier tube in a housing with a current to frequency converter (IF) at the Cassegrain focus of a 14½" telescope at West Melton, just outside Christchurch. The output of the IF was fed to a 6522 interface card (by John Bell manufacturing) plugged into peripheral slot 7. What this essentially did was to turn the Apple ][+ into a recording frequency counter. The signal would integrate for 700 milliseconds out of each second, and during the other 300 milliseconds the data, together with date and time data and UBV filter information, was dumped in the form of a hexadecimal 16 byte "word" into a dedicated section of the "massive" 32K RAM. This integration subroutine would loop a number of times (I can't remember how long for, but I think it was about five or ten minutes) then the whole section of filled RAM was dumped onto a 5¼ floppy disk, the RAM would be cleared and the whole process started again.

We started off our testing by gathering data for light curves for a couple well known variable stars; RR Centauri, a W Ursae Majoris type star (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W_Ursae_Majoris_variable), a low-mass contact eclipsing binary, and RY Sagittarius, an R Corona Borealis type intrinsic variable (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R_Coronae_Borealis_variable) The the original plan when the system was up and running was to provide photometric data of variable stars for a couple of Physics students at Canterbury University, but that plan was about to change.

The night of February 24, 1987 is one I will never forget. There were two of us in the observatory. We had the 14½" Cassegrain on one of the two stars (I cant remember which) when the telephone rang. Graham answered it, and I could hear him getting excited as he wrote down what was obviously an RA & Dec. He said "Cooky, we need to re-point the telescope. Some Chilean astronomers have discovered a supernova in the LMC." This was not as easy as it sounds. This telescope did not have setting circles. Pointing was achieved by pulling out the 1981 edition of Will Tirion's Sky Atlas 2000, and locating stars near where you wanted to point the telescope.

The problem we faced is that we were looking for a star field on the chart, trying to match it with what we could see through the finder telescope (a 4" refractor attached to the side of the big one), and trying to identify a star in the field of view that wasn't on the star chart. Initially, this did not seem as if it would be easy. Tirion's Sky Atlas goes down to +8 mag, but the 4" refractor shows down to at least +13. That means there were literally hundreds of stars in the field that were not on the chart. However, it didn't take us long to find it, there was this 3rd - 4th magnitude in the field where there was none on the chart among a group of about five stars which were. We were gathering photometric data on SN1987a within about 40 minutes of the phone call.

That pattern of half a dozen stars was going to become very familiar for the next few months.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Bryanpoprobson on September 26, 2014, 03:02:09 AM
In the 80's I used to run a training course on programming machine code and basic fault finding. I've looked everywhere for the kit I used (for nostalgia reasons). It consisted of a briefcase encased Microprocessor with some LED's and a Four digit Count display, it was called MicroLab Up (as I recall, but my memory may be wrong on this). I just wondered if anybody remembers the kits full name, or better still where I might lay my hands on one?
By programming the (Motorola 68000?) processor you could make the LED's and counters do tasks, play games etc.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: smartcooky on September 26, 2014, 03:20:43 AM
In the 80's I used to run a training course on programming machine code and basic fault finding. I've looked everywhere for the kit I used (for nostalgia reasons). It consisted of a briefcase encased Microprocessor with some LED's and a Four digit Count display, it was called MicroLab Up (as I recall, but my memory may be wrong on this). I just wondered if anybody remembers the kits full name, or better still where I might lay my hands on one?
By programming the (Motorola 68000?) processor you could make the LED's and counters do tasks, play games etc.


Yep, We used one of those at No. 2 Technical Training School. It's an HP5036 Microlab and it had an Intel8085 chip.

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/98915197/ApolloHoax/5036.png)

http://hacksomethingtonight.blogspot.co.nz/2010/08/hp-5036a-microprocessor-lab.html
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Bryanpoprobson on September 26, 2014, 03:27:19 AM
Yep, We used one of those at No. 2 Technical Training School. It's an HP5036 Microlab and it had an Intel8085 chip

http://hacksomethingtonight.blogspot.co.nz/2010/08/hp-5036a-microprocessor-lab.html

That was the cookie, thank you for that.. :)
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Bryanpoprobson on September 26, 2014, 03:31:04 AM
2 for sale on ebay over $300 with shipping, I'l put my nostalgia on hold. :)
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: nomuse on September 26, 2014, 03:53:49 AM

...We started off our testing by gathering data for light curves for a couple well known variable stars; RR Centauri...

That's great. I'm actually trying to dream up a portable version of that (using 2001-2006 technology) for an SG1 fanfic I've been tinkering with when I get really bored.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Dr_Orpheus on September 26, 2014, 09:42:40 AM
Maybe someone should compile a list of all the questions that Jockndoris has ignored so far on this thread.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: gwiz on September 26, 2014, 10:34:05 AM
I remember using the original BASIC in the mid-70s.  According to Wikipedia it first appeared in 1964.  It looks like other forms (BASICA, GW-BASIC) appeared in the early 80s, with QuickBasic being introduced in 1985.
I think it was in the late 1960s that we got an ICL 1903 and started Fortran programming, before that we were using a variety of languages, including machine code, on a Ferranti Pegasus.  BASIC was the language of choice for the DEC mini computers that arrived in the 1970s, then back to Fortran for the wide variety of machines available in the 1980s, everything from VAX minis to supercomputers.  I started to get my teeth into  C in the 1990s, but by that time most of the programming was done by specialist teams, leaving the research and design staff to get on with proper work.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 26, 2014, 12:36:00 PM
Maybe someone should compile a list of all the questions that Jockndoris has ignored so far on this thread.

It's called "the thread."
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: dwight on September 26, 2014, 01:19:45 PM
"The Thread". Sounds like the title of a horror film.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 26, 2014, 02:37:51 PM
Yeah, I did Fortran in college - using punch cards (c.1977).

I still have a few boxes of punch cards and some 9-track tape reels in the basement.  Or attic.  I forget.

Quote
I played around with QuickBASIC quite a bit in the 90s, mostly writing astronomy programs.

By then I was writing my astronomy programs in C.  My original astronomy programs were written in Fortran.  You know, 300-element harmonic equations -- the stuff Fortran is really good at.  So after hours you could go in and mount up your tape and say something like

//EPH42 JOB (JPW1138) 'JAY EPHEM RUN' CLASS=A, MSGCLASS=0, MSGLEVEL=(,1)
//             EXEC PROC=FORTCLG
//FORT.SYSIN   DD DNSAME=JEPHEM, UNIT=2401, VOLUME=SER=JPW04,
//                DISP=(OLD,KEEP)
//GO.SYSIN     DD *
+420320.00 -0924513.21 19790822 230000-06
/*


The first five cards you'd have in your desk with rubber band around them because you're going to use them a jillion times.  But you had to go over to the 029 and punch the data card, the one after GO.SYSIN.  You'd be a steely-eyed missile man if you could decipher what the data format is and what it means.

Then you dropped the cards in the hopper "face-down, nine-edge forward," or sometimes "face-down, top edge to the back."  Those were our mantras.   You have to add the last card, a pre-punched stack of which was always available on the reader.  (You were supposed to put them back after your job was entered, the IBM equivalent of "take a penny, leave a penny.")

Then you push START.  The reader ingested your cards and gave them back in the tray to the side.  Or, if they were too well used, the reader would eat one and jam, forcing you to take the reader apart and fish out the lacy corpse of a some DD card that took you 17 ABENDed jobs to get right and which you now need to repunch.

Then if everything went right up to this point, the tape would spin wildly one direction, then the other, stop, and cautiously inch its way forward for a couple seconds.  Then silence for several seconds.  Well, "silence" in a machine room means no sound other than enough fans blasting to deafen a bomber pilot.   The line printer would clatter to life and on your wide fanfold sheet, neatly lined up on green and white yardlines, would be a row for each planetary body -- its rise/set times and azimuths, zenith azimuths, phase, right ascension / declination and altitude and azimuth angles for the input.

I laboriously translated all those 300-element harmonic equations into C at one point.  That was a lot nicer, since running the program was so much more convenient.  And the computer was faster.

I eventually put a Sunview window around it so you could see an actual display of the night sky, and an overhead model of the solar system with the planets where they were in their actual geometrically-correct orbits (mapped onto the ecliptic).  That's how I discovered there was a bug somewhere in Saturn, because it retrograded for a bit as you spun time fast enough to watch the planets orbit.  Not as if I really want to proofread hundreds of floating-point coefficients to figure out which one is wrong.

And I sort of left it there and went on to other things.

Quote
Today I can usually accomplish what I need to using Excel.

Which is probably quite a lot, considering most people around me end up using it just to format a table of static data.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Jockndoris on September 26, 2014, 03:42:12 PM

Thank you for sending a free copy of your book.  I will read it tonight.

Mr. Burns, if I ask you some questions about your book in a non-confrontational manner, will you agree to answer them honestly and candidly?


Most certainly yes   look forward to receiving them  Jockndoris

Excellent.  I'll start with these three so as not to overwhelm you.

- On pg. 54, you recount how, in 2013, the apparition of Neil Armstrong revealed, "We knew of course that if we were found by anyone then the whole game would be up and the Moon Hoax would become public, and we would be disgraced and we wanted to avoid that at all costs", referring to, as your book describes it, a splashdown and subsequent recovery which did not go as planned.  How do you reconcile his stated need for secrecy, with your earlier account of playing golf in full view of other witnesses, and flying with him and other passengers in an airliner on July 20th, 1969? 


beedarko
here is my answer to the third part
Hiding on the golf course.
Effectively they had no choice. Having agreed to do the Hoax they had to carry it through. They knew that no one would be looking for them as they would be glued to their TV sets. 

When I popped up on the plane it was manna from heaven because it gave them something to do while they were waiting and somewhere where they thought they didn’t have hide as it was all within their controlled barracks amongst friends.

The golf course is a very special place.   Most presidents of the USA play golf including both of the George Bush’s and they could never be disturbed on the golf course.  And like you no one would think they would have the cheek to parade on the golf course.    If anyone had reported them for any reason they would have been called lunatics as everyone knew they were on the Moon.  Remember that golfers must never be disturbed on the golf course. Even if their wife is on the phone - don’t interrupt him he is playing golf!

I agree they had to have lots of nerve to do it but they had just agreed to fool 1 billion people and that needed a bit of nerve.  Just like I am for suggesting it now!
I can confirm that that is what happened and I recall it now in just the same way.
jockndoris
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Bob B. on September 26, 2014, 03:59:23 PM
Jay, you're giving me flashbacks of the old university computer lab.

Honestly, I don't remember Fortran at all; I took one class and never used it again.  BASIC I remember pretty well.  I planned at one time to teach myself C++ but never got around to it.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: sts60 on September 26, 2014, 04:01:07 PM
Jockndoris, your explanation is not merely absurd, but also self-contradictory.  You had said they had to be brought back to Earth stealthily; now you have them casually strolling golf courses and flying with random civilians.

You have simply made up up your story.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: sts60 on September 26, 2014, 04:05:13 PM
I will also add that I don't find such a cockamamie story interesting or entertaining even as fiction, so since you cannot provide a reason to give it any further attention, I think I'll move in to asking you to support your claims about Mars.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: smartcooky on September 26, 2014, 04:23:33 PM
Burns, answering questions about your lies with more lies is not answering the questions.

You must be truly delusional if you think that any sane, reasoning person believes any of the bullshit in your glorified pamphlet, or any of the hephyr dust you have posted here in support of your ludicrous and demonstrably false claims.

In answer to the first question you will obviously want to ask me next: No, I have not read your glorified pamphlet (nor do I ever intend to) but I don't need to do so in order to know that the two main claims you make therein (namely, that you were visited by the ghost of Neil Armstrong, and that you played golf with he and Edwin Aldrin while they were supposed to be on the moon) are false

In answer to the second question you will obviously want to ask me: No, I do not want a copy of your glorified pamphlet!!

See the first line of my signature!

You sir, are a liar and a fraud!
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 26, 2014, 04:40:06 PM
When I popped up on the plane it was manna from heaven because it gave them something to do while they were waiting and somewhere where they thought they didn’t have hide as it was all within their controlled barracks amongst friends.

No.  This is the most absurd claim ever.  You were asked to reconcile a glaring contradiction in your story, and you've only underscored it.

Quote
The golf course is a very special place.

This paragraph is entirely irrelevant supposition.  (The rest of you imagine what it's like to read 60 pages of this dreck.)

Quote
I agree they had to have lots of nerve to do it...

Not an answer.  Inexplicably going from extreme caution to pointless bravado is just restating the contradiction you've been asked to reconcile.  Don't simply marvel at the contradiction -- explain it.

Quote
Just like I am for suggesting it now!

No, Mr. Burns, you're not a hero.

If you want to show us your mettle, show us better that you're willing to prove your farfetched claims.  Or, if you really want to show us you have nerve, come out and say, "You got me; it's just a bit of fiction."

Quote
I can confirm that that is what happened and I recall it now in just the same way.

No, you cannot confirm that's what happened.  That's the point of this line of questioning:  you're telling an absurd story, claiming it's true, and providing absolutely no testable evidence.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: RAF on September 26, 2014, 04:47:34 PM
When I popped up on the plane it was manna from heaven...

....you served the in-flight meal?


Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 26, 2014, 05:10:51 PM
Honestly, I don't remember Fortran at all; I took one class and never used it again.

It's still a vital language, although you wouldn't recognize its modern (ca. 1990) syntax.  Post-Columbia NASA developed a lot of custom fluid-dynamics code to evaluate TPS damage using high-resolution digital photos taken from the ISS during approach.

Quote
BASIC I remember pretty well.  I planned at one time to teach myself C++ but never got around to it.

C++ is incredibly baroque.  Try Python instead.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: nomuse on September 26, 2014, 05:23:50 PM
I find his rationalizations of the golf story almost vaguely make sense -- if he intends that Aldrin was running the conspiracy personally.

He seems to have forgotten they are not the ones giving orders. Not the ones spending billions of dollar and committing crimes in the process of this cover-up. The astronauts were a small (but important) cog, and it would be a poor conspiracy indeed that let them personally determine whether their boredom was worth a huge security risk.

But, alas, this is out of character in any case. After months in training, and facing such things as weeks in medical quarantine, a couple of fortnights away while the mission was actively being faked are not exactly going to be untoward hardship! This doesn't even include the possible need for them, plus the necessary movements to get them of the launch pad, and out to a high altitude aircraft somewhere over the Pacific (or whatever particular scenario Jock thinks is plausible).

Another thing, though. The way Jock describes the golf course, he seems to be implying that all of the military -- all branches -- are in on the secret. Or at least can easily and instantly be sworn into accommodation of the secret. His hand-wave of "It's okay, they only let military people in" sounds to me a whole lot like the typical inflationary conspiracy school...the sort that start with a hoaxed space mission and end up declaring the entire Cold War a hoax.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: nomuse on September 26, 2014, 05:27:21 PM
Feh. I haven't gotten far enough in C++ for it to scare me. At my level, it might as well be Python. I find it a lot easier to work with then BASIC. It seems to flow better, organize better, it just sort of "feels better in the mouth" (if that makes any sense.)

(C#, on the other hand, gives me a headache).
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 26, 2014, 05:38:36 PM
Feh. I haven't gotten far enough in C++ for it to scare me.

We used an in-house design and manufacturing system that was 4 million lines of C++, back in the early 1990s.  Luckily the software guys who maintained it were incredibly talented and kept the code base very well groomed and logical.  I learned a lot about proper C++ practice from those two.  One of them was a fellow Larry Niven fan, so that was nice.

For utility programming these days I really do favor Python.  It's a well-built language organized around simple, solid princples with a helpful and enthusiastic user community and a large runtime library.  And it has enough esoteric features to keep the computer scientist side of me happy.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 26, 2014, 05:49:34 PM
...it would be a poor conspiracy indeed that let them personally determine whether their boredom was worth a huge security risk.

That's part of the "local color" test.  As you say, out of character.

Quote
Another thing, though. The way Jock describes the golf course, he seems to be implying that all of the military -- all branches -- are in on the secret.

Another part of the "local color" test.  We've already spoken a bit about how much Burns' specific claims are a caricature of actual U.S. military procedure, look, and feel.  The claims he's made here seem to indicate he just assumed the U.S. military works for most purposes just like the U.K. military.  (It does not.)  That's the big failure of the "local color" test, and supports the hypothesis that it has all been made up by someone guessing how things work.

I remember a long time ago some British author purported a suppressed conversation allegedly from an Apollo crew seeing aliens or something.  He had the crew saying, "Hallo, Houston, Apollo 11 calling..." just as the dashing RAF characters would say in British war movies.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: smartcooky on September 26, 2014, 06:08:34 PM
I remember a long time ago some British author purported a suppressed conversation allegedly from an Apollo crew seeing aliens or something.  He had the crew saying, "Hallo, Houston, Apollo 11 calling..." just as the dashing RAF characters would say in British war movies.

Bwwwhahaha! First thing that popped into my head (after my keyboard got spattered with coffee)  was.....


Funny aside: they use codenames so that they can't be identified,
and then Maj. Smith gives away his position. Go figure
.
.
.
.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Bob B. on September 26, 2014, 06:23:24 PM
C++ is incredibly baroque.  Try Python instead.

Thanks for the suggestion.  When I find the time to get back into programming, I'll look into Python.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 26, 2014, 06:36:08 PM
Bwwwhahaha! First thing that popped into my head (after my keyboard got spattered with coffee)  was.....

Well spotted.  And wouldn't Peter O'Toole, ca. 1962 have made a much more dashing astronaut?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: frenat on September 26, 2014, 07:27:39 PM
It is posts like the latest from Jockndoris that make me wish this forum had a BS flag emoticon like GLP.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: JayUtah on September 26, 2014, 07:45:08 PM
If anyone had reported them for any reason they would have been called lunatics as everyone knew they were on the Moon.

I'm just actually going to just leave this sitting here for Mr Burns to ponder.

Nevertheless according to the book a "military fellow" came to the golf course from the "Military Base" and told Armstrong & Co. that they were wanted back at the base so they could be "collected."  (Because that's how American military men talk.)  So not only did they go cavorting about the golf course when they should have been assiduously not almost getting caught again, they left word back at "the Military Base" that they were going golfing.  And no one apparently thought that was a problem.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: smartcooky on September 26, 2014, 07:59:41 PM
It is posts like the latest from Jockndoris that make me wish this forum had a BS flag emoticon like GLP.

Here, use mine

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/98915197/Smilies/bsflag.gif)
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: gillianren on September 27, 2014, 03:32:41 AM
And obviously, no one on golf courses ever has a camera.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Luckmeister on September 27, 2014, 11:59:11 AM
And obviously, no one on golf courses ever has a camera.

Not to help his case but I played a lot of pre-phonecamera golf and the only time I ever saw cameras on golf courses (non-tournament play) was during golf lessons. Cameras were not usually something players included in their golf bags, at least with anyone I knew or played golf with. Granted, I never golfed on a military-only course.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: onebigmonkey on September 27, 2014, 12:27:18 PM
Granted, I never golfed on a military-only course.

Then you and JnD have something in common...
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Luckmeister on September 27, 2014, 12:32:59 PM
Granted, I never golfed on a military-only course.

Then you and JnD have something in common...

I hope that's the only thing.  :D
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Andromeda on September 27, 2014, 04:37:28 PM
Funny how I've not been offered a free copy of this pamphlet (no, I don't want one).

I can think of at least two possible reasons.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Bryanpoprobson on September 27, 2014, 05:17:33 PM
I am waiting for the copy on a roll of "NASA mooned America." I am sure I will find it thoroughly absorbent absorbing. :)
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: Jason Thompson on September 27, 2014, 06:21:21 PM
here is my answer to the third part...

After reading that I really only have one question left for you, Jockndoris. What is it you gain out of telling these obvious lies?
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: gillianren on September 27, 2014, 09:50:04 PM
And obviously, no one on golf courses ever has a camera.

Not to help his case but I played a lot of pre-phonecamera golf and the only time I ever saw cameras on golf courses (non-tournament play) was during golf lessons. Cameras were not usually something players included in their golf bags, at least with anyone I knew or played golf with. Granted, I never golfed on a military-only course.

All I'm saying is that it would have been possible.  And if anyone there had a camera, a picture could have been taken and then published, thus destroying the "lie."
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: nomuse on September 27, 2014, 10:04:16 PM
Well, it isn't just a golf course. It's on a military base; he had to get in there. And it is in Hawaii, which means he had to get there. Now, he's not flying today, but there are still a lot of observers involved in that chain, and several of them are specifically tasked with making sure they know who is on the plane or coming through the gates.

Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: ka9q on September 27, 2014, 11:52:46 PM
You have mentioned Clarke in connection with his major patent, which was for placing communication relays in GS orbits.
Clarke famously declined to apply for a patent on the geostationary communications satellite. He said patents were nothing more than licenses to be sued, and he had better things to do than waste time in lawyer's offices.

Having been involved in a few big patent lawsuits, I'm strongly inclined to agree.
Title: Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
Post by: ka9q on September 28, 2014, 12:10:23 AM
We don't have to send a spacecraft up to verify how orbits work. Or how gravity works, or how vacuum works. It took a while for the engineering -- the power sources, the control strategies -- to get there, but the orbital principles were known by Kepler.
To a first order, yes. The actual practice must deal with some important second-order orbital mechanics. Several perturbing forces act on a geostationary satellite. The moon and sun tend to slowly change the inclination, causing the satellite to describe a north-south figure-8 pattern. The earth's equator is not a perfect circle, so the uneven distribution of mass tends to move geostationary satellites in an east or west direction toward a couple of stable longitudes.

The first (north-south) effect is the much bigger one, but both require periodic stationkeeping maneuvers to keep them in their assigned locations. When the fuel for these maneuvers runs out, the spacecraft usually has to be retired and replaced but sometimes alternate uses can be found for them that do not require them to be absolutely stationary. These include mobile communications (since the users need tracking antennas anyway) and communications with