ApolloHoax.net

Off Topic => General Discussion => Topic started by: LunarOrbit on June 08, 2018, 09:08:40 PM

Title: First Man
Post by: LunarOrbit on June 08, 2018, 09:08:40 PM
I forgot they were making this...



Can't wait!

Sent from my SM-T713 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: First Man
Post by: molesworth on June 09, 2018, 02:37:14 AM
I forgot they were making this...

...

Can't wait!

Sent from my SM-T713 using Tapatalk
Oooh, I didn't know about this!  It looks pretty good, although I'm not sure about "most dangerous mission in history" tag - a bit of hyperbole there  ;)

Apollo 13 was a good dramatization, and reasonably accurate in the details, so let's hope this one lives up to that standard.
Title: Re: First Man
Post by: Zakalwe on June 11, 2018, 01:29:55 PM
Ryan Gosling though. He's got emotion and charisma acting abilities somewhere between Keanu Reeves and a block of mahogany.

Title: Re: First Man
Post by: raven on June 11, 2018, 04:58:15 PM
Ryan Gosling though. He's got emotion and charisma acting abilities somewhere between Keanu Reeves and a block of mahogany.
Hey now! No need to be rude to the block of mahogany!
Title: Re: First Man
Post by: Zakalwe on June 11, 2018, 05:58:14 PM
Ryan Gosling though. He's got emotion and charisma acting abilities somewhere between Keanu Reeves and a block of mahogany.
Hey now! No need to be rude to the block of mahogany!


 ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: First Man
Post by: Dalhousie on June 11, 2018, 08:39:43 PM
Ryan Gosling though. He's got emotion and charisma acting abilities somewhere between Keanu Reeves and a block of mahogany.

Perfect choice for Neil Armstrong then.
Title: Re: First Man
Post by: jfb on June 12, 2018, 02:24:34 PM
Ryan Gosling though. He's got emotion and charisma acting abilities somewhere between Keanu Reeves and a block of mahogany.

Perfect choice for Neil Armstrong then.

Was gonna say, Neil was a pretty low-key guy.  Gosling seems like the right choice here. 
Title: Re: First Man
Post by: nweber on June 17, 2018, 11:28:27 AM
Was gonna say, Neil was a pretty low-key guy.  Gosling seems like the right choice here.

Yuri Gagarin was a natural in front of the camera.  Neil Armstrong was not.
Title: Re: First Man
Post by: LunarOrbit on June 17, 2018, 03:09:31 PM
Ryan Gosling though. He's got emotion and charisma acting abilities somewhere between Keanu Reeves and a block of mahogany.

I don't think it's fair to say he lacks charisma by pointing to his performance in a movie where he plays a replicant living in a depressing dystopian world. If he had been all smiles and charisma I would have found it unbelievable. ;)

I've actually met Ryan Gosling... and by "met" I mean I was in the same room as him while he interacted with other people. It was around 1999-2000 (during his "Young Hercules" years, I believe) and he came into the store I was working for at the time. Maybe something tragic happened to him since then that crushed his soul, but that kid had charisma. There was no doubt he'd be famous.

He probably wouldn't have been the first person I'd think of if I was casting the role of Neil Armstrong, but I don't think he is a bad choice.
Title: Re: First Man
Post by: Glom on June 26, 2018, 04:13:11 AM
Ryan Gosling though. He's got emotion and charisma acting abilities somewhere between Keanu Reeves and a block of mahogany.


I can't see a portrayal of Armstrong brimming with Patrick Stewart style overacting working so this is probably a positive.
Title: Re: First Man
Post by: JayUtah on June 27, 2018, 04:29:02 PM
Yup, my friend plays Elliott See.
Title: Re: First Man
Post by: twik on June 28, 2018, 11:31:26 AM
Ryan Gosling though. He's got emotion and charisma acting abilities somewhere between Keanu Reeves and a block of mahogany.

I don't think it's fair to say he lacks charisma by pointing to his performance in a movie where he plays a replicant living in a depressing dystopian world. If he had been all smiles and charisma I would have found it unbelievable. ;)


I agree. I thought he was spellbinding in in Bladerunner 2049.
Title: Re: First Man
Post by: raven on June 29, 2018, 01:36:58 AM
Just like Keanu Reeves's woodenness worked in his favour in Johnny Mnemonic.
Title: Re: First Man
Post by: Zakalwe on June 29, 2018, 02:46:35 AM
Ryan Gosling though. He's got emotion and charisma acting abilities somewhere between Keanu Reeves and a block of mahogany.

I don't think it's fair to say he lacks charisma by pointing to his performance in a movie where he plays a replicant living in a depressing dystopian world. If he had been all smiles and charisma I would have found it unbelievable. ;)


I agree. I thought he was spellbinding in in Bladerunner 2049.

Given he was playing a robot, I'd agree.
Title: Re: First Man
Post by: nickrulercreator on July 10, 2018, 08:02:16 PM
I'm really excited for this. I'm glad someone is finally making a depiction on Neil Armstrong's life. I hope we get to see and Apollo 11 film on the big screen as well.
Title: Re: First Man
Post by: twik on July 12, 2018, 04:22:31 PM
It's scheduled to play in our local VIP theatre, which is a good sign (although the fact that it will be adult fare rather than "family" also affects it).
Title: Re: First Man
Post by: molesworth on August 29, 2018, 03:06:55 PM
A new (I think) trailer...  A bit of artistic / dramatic license on show, but it's still looking hopeful as a decent telling of the story :
Title: Re: First Man
Post by: LunarOrbit on August 29, 2018, 03:36:53 PM
I've got to admit, I think they gave Neil Armstrong a bit of a "creepy serial killer" vibe in this trailer.
Title: Re: First Man
Post by: onebigmonkey on August 30, 2018, 06:41:50 AM
Looking forward to jumping on the technical errors :D

Like this one at the end of the 2nd trailer:

(http://i64.tinypic.com/2944eaq.jpg)

should be more like:

(http://i68.tinypic.com/s18cup.jpg)

Reviews sound promising though :)
Title: Re: First Man
Post by: molesworth on August 31, 2018, 04:14:48 PM
Some interesting choices on which parts to include, and which to omit :


'First Man': Neil Armstrong film fails to fly flag for US patriotism
 (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/films/2018/08/29/first-man-neil-armstrong-film-fails-fly-flag-us-patriotism/)
Quote
Gosling explained: "I think this was widely regarded in the end as a human achievement [and] that's how we chose to view it. I also think Neil was extremely humble, as were many of these astronauts, and time and time again he deferred the focus from himself to the 400,000 people who made the mission possible."

 ...

 The planting of the flag was controversial in 1969. There was disagreement over whether a US or United Nations flag should be used. Armstrong said later: "In the end it was decided by Congress that this was a United States project. We were not going to make any territorial claim, but we were to let people know that we were here and put up a US flag.

 "My job was to get the flag there. I was less concerned about whether that was the right artefact to place. I let other, wiser minds than mine make those kinds of decisions."
Title: Re: First Man
Post by: Ranb on August 31, 2018, 08:24:46 PM
https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/31/entertainment/first-man-american-flag-controversy/index.html
Quote
"This is total lunacy," Florida Republican Sen. Marco Rubio tweeted. "And a disservice at a time when our people need reminders of what we can achieve when we work together.
We need to be reminded?  I think Rubio needs to be reminded that we are't that stupid or forgetful.  :)

Quote
The American people paid for that mission, on rockets built by Americans, with American technology & carrying American astronauts. It wasn't a UN mission."
And Canadian tech as well as German-American ingenuity.

I wonder what Rubio would have to say if the film showed the flag blown down by the ascent module?
Title: Re: First Man
Post by: LunarOrbit on August 31, 2018, 09:03:10 PM
Maybe Rubio would like to go up there and read the plaque Neil and Buzz left behind...

"We came in peace for all mankind..."

People don't just need to be reminded of what we can do when we work together, they also need to be reminded of people who do great things but never seek the limelight because of it. It seems like today the attitude most people have is "what's in it for me?".
Title: Re: First Man
Post by: LunarOrbit on August 31, 2018, 09:11:04 PM
Quote
Gosling explained: "I think this was widely regarded in the end as a human achievement...

At first I read that as "I think this was widely regarded as the end of human achievement..." and thought to myself "that's a bold thing to say, but he might not be wrong".
Title: Re: First Man
Post by: Jason Thompson on September 01, 2018, 03:44:32 AM
https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/31/entertainment/first-man-american-flag-controversy/index.html
Quote
"This is total lunacy," Florida Republican Sen. Marco Rubio tweeted. "And a disservice at a time when our people need reminders of what we can achieve when we work together.
We need to be reminded?  I think Rubio needs to be reminded that we are't that stupid or forgetful.  :)

Quote
The American people paid for that mission, on rockets built by Americans, with American technology & carrying American astronauts. It wasn't a UN mission."
And Canadian tech as well as German-American ingenuity.

I wonder what Rubio would have to say if the film showed the flag blown down by the ascent module?

Bloody ridiculous. The whole Apollo story is 'what we can achieve when we work together', everyone. But yes, why not make it all about America again. Yes it was American taxes that paid for it, yes it was all done from America. Still, names like Wernher von Braun or Farouk El Baz shouldn't be glossed over. Although maybe at this particular time some Amerian politicians would prefer not to be reminded that one of the greatest achievements in history involved a few prominent immigrants....

But then I stll haven't forgiven the American film industry for the movie U571....
Title: Re: First Man
Post by: molesworth on September 01, 2018, 11:53:53 AM
As a non-American, I am a bit surprised the flag moment was omitted.  Not because I thought it was a "gung-ho" moment, nor staking a claim, but I think it was seen by many as mankind stepping off our home planet and putting a first marker on another world.

Or is that a bit "gung-ho" anyway?  :D  If it is, then it's for the whole human race...
Title: Re: First Man
Post by: molesworth on September 01, 2018, 12:00:51 PM
Or is it because of this incident??   ;D

(https://i.imgur.com/v933C71.gif)
Title: Re: First Man
Post by: Daggerstab on September 03, 2018, 03:26:49 AM
In case people haven't seen the statement by Armstrong's sons and Hanson:

Quote
We’ve read a number of comments about the film today and specifically about the absence of the flag planting scene, made largely by people who haven’t seen the movie. As we’ve seen it multiple times, we thought maybe we should weigh in.

This is a film that focuses on what you don’t know about Neil Armstrong. It’s a film that focuses on things you didn’t see or may not remember about Neil’s journey to the moon. The filmmakers spent years doing extensive research to get at the man behind the myth, to get at the story behind the story. It’s a movie that gives you unique insight into the Armstrong family and fallen American Heroes like Elliot See and Ed White. It’s a very personal movie about our dad’s journey, seen through his eyes.

This story is human and it is universal. Of course, it celebrates an America achievement. It also celebrates an achievement “for all mankind,” as it says on the plaque Neil and Buzz left on the moon. It is a story about an ordinary man who makes profound sacrifices and suffers through intense loss in order to achieve the impossible.

Although Neil didn’t see himself that way, he was an American hero. He was also an engineer and a pilot, a father and a friend, a man who suffered privately through great tragedies with incredible grace. This is why, though there are numerous shots of the American flag on the moon, the filmmakers chose to focus on Neil looking back at the earth, his walk to Little West Crater, his unique, personal experience of completing this journey, a journey that has seen so many incredible highs and devastating lows.

In short, we do not feel this movie is anti-American in the slightest. Quite the opposite. But don’t take our word for it. We’d encourage everyone to go see this remarkable film and see for themselves.

Oh, and if you want to see some very ugly partizan jumping-to-conclusions, if not an outright lie, have a look at this tweet by Dinesh D'Souza (https://twitter.com/DineshDSouza/status/1036361482592821248):
Quote
The left pretends American flags were not important to the moon landing. Yet the makers of #FirstManMovie went to the trouble of cut them out even from the astronauts’ uniforms. The symbolism was clearly important to them!
Title: Re: First Man
Post by: onebigmonkey on September 03, 2018, 03:50:00 AM
I think it's a shame it's been missed out, but not so much because it is an American flag, more because I'm an Apollo enthusiast and I would be quite happy to watch a recreation of the entire EVA.

The film, however, is not called "A history of Apollo 11", so I get where the film makers are coming from in leaving it out. Had this been "Last Man" and they left out Geno's flag ceremony, which he declared to be the proudest day of his life, it would be different.

If the flag wavers are disappointed about the lack of one to wave, they need to fund their own movie.
Title: Re: First Man
Post by: apollo16uvc on September 03, 2018, 02:53:28 PM
Who cares, its a movie. Arguing if a movie should have your flag is a first-world problem if I ever saw one.

Make your own one if you think it should be different.

From what I gather, the movie is more about the human drama than the mission itself.
Title: Re: First Man
Post by: BDL on September 03, 2018, 09:12:46 PM
I’m just glad the movie is coming out at all.
I wouldn’t advise getting so worked up from something so trivial.
Title: Re: First Man
Post by: Glom on September 05, 2018, 07:51:38 AM


Some interesting choices on which parts to include, and which to omit :


'First Man': Neil Armstrong film fails to fly flag for US patriotism
 (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/films/2018/08/29/first-man-neil-armstrong-film-fails-fly-flag-us-patriotism/)
Quote

 The planting of the flag was controversial in 1969. There was disagreement over whether a US or United Nations flag should be used. Armstrong said later: "In the end it was decided by Congress that this was a United States project. We were not going to make any territorial claim, but we were to let people know that we were here and put up a US flag.

 "My job was to get the flag there. I was less concerned about whether that was the right artefact to place. I let other, wiser minds than mine make those kinds of decisions."

The fact he deferred to worry about such a thing shows he was wiser than all those other minds.

Or is it because of this incident??   ;D

(https://i.imgur.com/v933C71.gif)

Hilarious. Where is that from?


I wonder what Rubio would have to say if the film showed the flag blown down by the ascent module?

Or a montage showing the solar radiation causing it to decay over time. How would that be for symbolism?
Title: Re: First Man
Post by: benparry on September 24, 2018, 06:20:26 AM
My tickets are booked for this  :D mind you £33 for 1 Adult and 1 Child was a bit steep lol
Title: Re: First Man
Post by: LunarOrbit on October 01, 2018, 10:00:23 PM
A sneak peak of the movie's depiction of the Gemini 8 incident. Looks riveting!


Title: Re: First Man
Post by: Ranb on October 01, 2018, 11:46:25 PM
Exciting scene, but based on what I read about the stuck thruster problem, it seems the movie takes a few liberties with how quickly the spacecraft started to spin and how fast it did spin prior to the crew getting it under control.  I think the emergency as it was shown on the mini-series From the Earth to the Moon was more realistic.  Or perhaps I am mistaken.  :)
Title: Re: First Man
Post by: onebigmonkey on October 02, 2018, 08:07:21 AM
This is very interesting



particularly for those HBs who insist it was all done in a studio.

One thing that puzzles me is the depiction of the surface at eg 8:22 - what exactly are those mountains supposed to be??
Title: Re: First Man
Post by: darren r on October 02, 2018, 04:54:07 PM
This is very interesting....
One thing that puzzles me is the depiction of the surface at eg 8:22 - what exactly are those mountains supposed to be??

Cool to see that they made extensive use of miniatures, actual sets and physical effects instead of doing it all with CGI.

As for the mountains - if this scene was shot outside on a real location (as the film crews visible breath seems to suggest it was) maybe they are real hills/mountains that were removed in post-production?
Title: Re: First Man
Post by: bknight on October 02, 2018, 05:32:00 PM
This is very interesting



particularly for those HBs who insist it was all done in a studio.

One thing that puzzles me is the depiction of the surface at eg 8:22 - what exactly are those mountains supposed to be??

Artistic license?
Title: Re: First Man
Post by: grmcdorman on October 02, 2018, 09:54:11 PM
This is very interesting



particularly for those HBs who insist it was all done in a studio.

One thing that puzzles me is the depiction of the surface at eg 8:22 - what exactly are those mountains supposed to be??

Interesting. One thing that struck me, especially in the jump from the LM ladder sequence, is that some of the movements looked wrong compared to what I recall of the actual excursion footage (the way he lands, in particular).
Title: Re: First Man
Post by: onebigmonkey on October 03, 2018, 03:19:10 AM
Interesting. One thing that struck me, especially in the jump from the LM ladder sequence, is that some of the movements looked wrong compared to what I recall of the actual excursion footage (the way he lands, in particular).

In the trailer his intonation of the famous "One small step..." speech is all wrong - I just know I'm going to be grinding my teeth a lot through this :D
Title: Re: First Man
Post by: Peter B on October 12, 2018, 04:55:07 AM
Interesting. One thing that struck me, especially in the jump from the LM ladder sequence, is that some of the movements looked wrong compared to what I recall of the actual excursion footage (the way he lands, in particular).

In the trailer his intonation of the famous "One small step..." speech is all wrong - I just know I'm going to be grinding my teeth a lot through this :D

Can I offer consolation in the form of this review:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-10-11/ryan-gosling-is-stoic-neil-armstrong-in-first-man-film/10359222

Quote
In a way, watching people cope is what First Man is all about.

Chazelle's reliance on close-ups and mid shots — images of faces that take up vast swathes of the wide screen — depicts people alone with their thoughts and fears.

The way I see it, the movie is about people - one in particular - and perhaps that justifies a little license in re-creating scenes most of us know so well. In that regard it's different from "From the Earth to the Moon", which was a lot more about What Happened. So while I agree that FTETTM portrayed the Gemini 8 incident more accurately than "First Man" does, that's because they're showing different things: FTETTM wanted to show how a potential disaster crept up on the astronauts, while FM shows how Armstrong remained calm and in control in a situation that would have petrified most of us.

ETA: It's not as though FTETTM was perfect in its portrayals either. In the episode about Apollo 11 the scenes featuring Armstrong's aborted LLRV flight are all askew, with calls of altitude that clearly don't match the view from the vehicle.
Title: Re: First Man
Post by: onebigmonkey on October 12, 2018, 06:00:23 AM
I'm seeing it on Saturday and am very much encouraged by the reviews :)
Title: Re: First Man
Post by: benparry on October 12, 2018, 06:56:58 AM
Me too OBM your not in Manchester by any chance are you
Title: Re: First Man
Post by: Zakalwe on October 12, 2018, 07:27:14 AM
I'm hoping to see it on Sat too in Manchester. IMAX all the way, though the price is blooming salty!
Title: Re: First Man
Post by: molesworth on October 12, 2018, 05:46:19 PM
I'm seeing it on Saturday and am very much encouraged by the reviews :)
One of our engineers saw it at a preview a few days ago and he said it was very good, apart from some quite jarring switches between shots with "aged" effects and those without them.  That may be down to different teams / units producing different parts to be merged into the final footage, or something.  Hopefully it won't be too annoying.

He also thought the lunar surface CGI for the descent sequence was a bit poor (although he does work on a planet / asteroid surface simulation tool that's used to develop approach and landing systems, so he may be a bit over-critical on that point ;D )
Title: Re: First Man
Post by: Ranb on October 12, 2018, 10:14:33 PM
Amy Shira Teitel reviewed the movie on her Vintage Space Youtube channel.   

There are spoilers in her review.


Title: Re: First Man
Post by: Zakalwe on October 13, 2018, 12:24:48 PM
Well, it's an interesting movie. Very much about the relationship between husband and wife and less about the events.
Unfortunately it is ruined by the scourge of modern cinematography....the zoomed-in, wobbly, out-of-ficus shot. Just about every shot is tight in so the centre of focus is an ear or a nostril hair. The camera constantly wobbles and moves. Focus is all over the place. No, this does not make it personal or give it a feeling of "being there" (quite the opposite)...it gives it a feeling of being shot by a drunk amateur with early onset Parkinson's. It constantly takes you out of the film and at times disassociates you completely. At times, for instance during the Gemini crisis, it was impossible to look at the screen (I saw it in IMAX, quite close to the screen so it filled my vision). This nonsense was just about acceptable in the Blair Witch project or in bad YouTube videos. Every single shot, until a handful on the Lunar surface became tedious and predictable...zoom in, pull focus on and out, wobble, wobble, wobble.
Gosling was OK....he was able to express his full emotional repertoire of mahogany to teak.

There's a good film in there somewhere, but it needs to be reshot with camera operators that have more than one single shot technique in their kitbag. And that have a tripod or two. Martin Scorsese it is not.
Title: Re: First Man
Post by: bknight on October 13, 2018, 12:37:38 PM
Nice concise evaluation of the movie.  I'm glad I waited until it debuts on cable.
Title: Re: First Man
Post by: Zakalwe on October 13, 2018, 02:23:54 PM
This review sums it up for me:

https://www.peoplesworld.org/article/first-man-the-wrong-stuff-from-claustrophobia-to-the-cosmos/

In short, I rate it as a swing and a miss. A painful miss at that as a different director and cinematographer would have made a massive difference.

<edit> There's a couple of scents that are stunning...the Saturn V launch is beautiful in places and the Lunar surface is desolately beautiful. However, they're not worth the entrance price.
Title: Re: First Man
Post by: Obviousman on October 13, 2018, 05:02:52 PM
I'm going to see it today. It might be that I end up agreeing totally with his assessment, but I do not share his political leanings. Hell, he may as well have ended the review with:

Well, comrades, come the revolution there will be an end to bourgeoisie directors like this producing their fascist propaganda

Title: Re: First Man
Post by: Zakalwe on October 13, 2018, 06:07:54 PM
The review that I linked to?
Yes...I agree if so. Chop out the middle paragraphs of political ranting and the rest pertains, accurately IMHO, to the film.

I was massively disappointed.
Title: Re: First Man
Post by: BDL on October 13, 2018, 06:10:32 PM
I watched it today. It was great.
Title: Re: First Man
Post by: BDL on October 13, 2018, 06:14:08 PM
Although, I was never much of a critic. I like just about every movie I watched. Overall, I think I really liked it.
Title: Re: First Man
Post by: LunarOrbit on October 13, 2018, 10:43:39 PM
I watched it today as well. It didn't knock Apollo 13 out of 1st place on my list of favourite space movies, but I didn't hate it either. I'd maybe put it on par with The Right Stuff for re-watchability.

The movie is from the perspective of the people in the scene, so if you're in a rocket you're only going to see the spacecraft's controls and dials, and a tiny view out the window. There are only a few views of spacecrafts from an outside perspective. I think the "shaky cam" technique makes sense in most of the cases that it is used in this movie, since if you're on top of a launching rocket things will tend to get shaky.

I also wasn't that bothered by all of the close-up shots, since it was usually used to show the intensity of the character's concentration, or other emotions. I think you also get a lot of tight shots while inside spacecraft in order to give the audience a sense of how small the spacecrafts were. At least that's how I think of it, so it didn't bother me.

I wasn't impressed by the sound effects during the Gemini 8 launch (which seemed to be made up of squealing pigs and random loud bangs), but maybe other movies are to blame for giving me a false idea of how a rocket launch should sound.

I found this movie to be quite dark (both darkly lit, and emotionally dark), whereas Apollo 13 was brighter and happier.

I didn't like how Neil Armstrong was portrayed as being almost completely emotionless. It made him look less human. I didn't know him, but from what I do know of him he was maybe a bit introverted and probably overly serious at times, but the movie made him come across as having no ability to interact with other people. In the movie, he would talk to his children the same way he would talk to the press during an interview. But this is usually the way an extrovert would portray an introvert (as if we're robots).

I thought the depiction of the Apollo 11 moon landing and the whole lunar EVA looked pretty amazing. When Neil and Buzz open the hatch you hear the air rush out and then it's completely silent. It does contain one scene that might be totally fictional, but I could be wrong. It was a personal moment for Armstrong, so maybe he just didn't make it known to many people outside of his family. I'll have to check his biography to see if it's mentioned there.

The only other criticism that I have about the moon landing sequence was that the timing of Buzz Aldrin calling out "Contact light!" seems way off from how it should be. In the movie it goes like this:

<The LM lands on the moon>
<4 seconds pass>
Buzz: Contact light!
Neil: Shutdown!

Shouldn't it be more like this?

Buzz: Contact light!
Neil: Shut down!
<The LM lands on the moon>

Or maybe like this?

Buzz: Contact light!
<The LM lands on the moon>
Neil: Shut down!
Title: Re: First Man
Post by: onebigmonkey on October 14, 2018, 11:34:07 AM
Having seen it yesterday I'd agree with a lot of what you said. I was very puzzled by the sound effects during the Gemini out of control sequence, not so sure there would have been much atmosphere to make a sound but how else do you get the message across to a general audience? As an aside it amused me that the film was labelled as containing 'Mild threat'. I don't think they saw that as particularly mild!

As for emotionless, I didn't quite see it like that. I thought the central theme of why he was the way he was and why he threw himself into his work was well done (it was something I felt from reading the book). I also want to check that personal scene - I really hope it's true regardless of whether it's in the book ;)

Apart from that out of sequence 'contact light' thing, I felt the approach to the landing site was over-hyped - it was going too fast for too long and some of the landscape over which that final approach supposedly occurred is totally wrong, but obviously much more dramatically satisfying. The Earth was wrong throughout - particularly when viewed from the surface, and I'm baffled why they couldn't use the correct one - not like there aren't enough images from the mission. Minor quibbles that are going to bother someone who has spent years looking at Apollo images, less so a general cinema-goer.

I quite enjoyed seeing Buzz being portrayed as a bit of a dick, which he undoubtedly is a lot of the time!

On the whole very enjoyable, I'm looking forward to buying my own copy, and ideally I'd like a 'Space Geek's edit' with more of the actual space stuff in it :D
Title: Re: First Man
Post by: Obviousman on October 14, 2018, 03:54:10 PM
I didn't like it for reasons others have mentioned: Armstrong portrayed as emotionless, 'shaky-cam', etc. I also didn't like the scene where Deke talks to Neil in the bathroom and tells him that it looks like Apollo 11 will be the first to land, and they want him to be the CDR; that simply did not happen that way.

Neil and his crew were backups for Apollo 9 and in the normal course of rotation, they would have been Apollo 12. The 'swap' between Apollos 8 & 9 saw the backups change as well, which meant the Pete Conrad lost 11 and his crew would now be Apollo 12.
Title: Re: First Man
Post by: BDL on October 14, 2018, 04:19:49 PM
Yeah, there were a bunch of inaccuracies that I’d wished they’d got right.
Title: Re: First Man
Post by: Ranb on October 14, 2018, 07:19:25 PM
I enjoyed the movie but I'm certain numerous liberties were taken for dramatic reasons.  I'm not done reading the book First Man so I'll learn more later.  I thought the cinematography was poor.  Are the X-15 and Titan rockets really that bumpy?

I thought it was much better than the Apollo 11 episode of From the Earth to the Moon, but not as good as Apollo 13 or the Apollo 11 TV movie 
Title: Re: First Man
Post by: Obviousman on October 15, 2018, 01:08:21 AM
There was also the scene with Neil leaving baby Karen's bracelet on the moon... did that happen? I don't remember it.
Title: Re: First Man
Post by: Zakalwe on October 15, 2018, 01:33:17 AM
There was also the scene with Neil leaving baby Karen's bracelet on the moon... did that happen? I don't remember it.
AFAIK, that was all artistic licence.
Title: Re: First Man
Post by: onebigmonkey on October 15, 2018, 04:42:11 AM
There was also the scene with Neil leaving baby Karen's bracelet on the moon... did that happen? I don't remember it.
AFAIK, that was all artistic licence.

I read an interview with Hansen where he says as much, along with "We don't really know", arguing that no-one ever saw Armstrong's PPK so it could have been. It's a nice thought and I hope it is.
Title: Re: First Man
Post by: nickrulercreator on October 15, 2018, 08:54:31 PM
The Gemini launch was actually pretty accurate. That squeal noise heard just as it begins to launch is a result of the engine's starter cartridge firing up:
I don't know if it'd be that loud in the spacecraft, but that's what it sounded like.

I saw it on Friday and thought it was very very well done. I agree that Neil was made to seem very blah and unemotional, which, with what we know about him, is not entirely accurate, but it was still very good.

The cinematography was beautiful (though a bit shaky). The launch and landing sequence were phenomenal, some of the best I've ever seen in any film, and when they showed the iconic skirt separation in the launch, my mind exploded. They really nailed down those details.

The soundtrack, IMO, was perfect. It really set the tone of triumph, hope, and aspiration, but also made you experience the same dread and hurt that the movie itself portrayed.

Overall, for a nonfiction film, Apollo 13 and this one are tied for me. For nonfiction, interstellar and 2001 still beat this one, but that's because there's more leeway in the story of course.
Title: Re: First Man
Post by: raven on October 18, 2018, 02:20:39 AM
Armstrong never struck me as 'emotionless'. Just someone not great in front of the camera. Some people are like that. Excellent at what he did but not someone who liked the spotlight. And he had this adorable shy smile (https://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/alsj/a11/AS11-37-5528.jpg). If I was a few decades older, I would have had such a crush on him.
Still, I definitively will be seeing this, despite its faults.
Title: Re: First Man
Post by: LunarOrbit on October 27, 2018, 08:06:41 PM
I decided to go see the movie for a second time today, and I enjoyed it a lot more this time.

Neil didn't seem like as much of a "gloomy Gus", and even the sound of the Gemini 8 launch didn't bother me as much.
Title: Re: First Man
Post by: bknight on November 07, 2018, 01:25:23 PM
What is everyone's opinion of this op-ed?

https://www.space.com/42338-which-first-man-neil-armstrong-op-ed.html
Title: Re: First Man
Post by: Obviousman on November 07, 2018, 03:17:56 PM
It does a good job of summarising my opinions.
Title: Re: First Man
Post by: Zakalwe on November 08, 2018, 01:25:02 AM
I agree. Add that to the terrible formulaic camera work and you have a not great movie, IMHO.
Title: Re: First Man
Post by: JayUtah on November 13, 2018, 12:51:54 PM
I wish I'd had more involvement with this film.  But Singer had already solidified the screenplay before my friend Patrick (Elliott See) figured out I was an Apollo authority.  (He actually knows me from my involvement with the Utah arts and theater world.)  Our conversations mostly revolved around the pre-Apollo furor, since that's what he want to talk about for his character.  Honestly I expected Damien Chazelle to make his film poetic, closer to The Right Stuff than to Ron Howard's Apollo 13.  And in that respect I was not disappointed.  Was that Neil Armstrong?  No, not really.  Do rockets make those noises?  No, not really.  That much didn't matter to me because I went into the film expecting that sort of depiction from this team.

I will take credit for one thing, though.  We got talking about Apollo 1, and the thing I mentioned to Patrick was that no one -- not even the many books written or documentaries filmed on Apollo development -- really captures how quickly the accident happened.  We all like to think there was a credible chance to rescue the crew.  There wasn't.  It was all over in 13 seconds.  And it's not too much of a spoiler to say that Chazelle must have somehow got the message:  the depiction of the accident from "Fire in the cockpit!" to the rupture of the CM hatch takes exactly 13 seconds of screen time.  For me, that excuses a lot of the liberties I knew were going to be taken.  If you take nothing away from this film, give him credit for that.
Title: Re: First Man
Post by: Dalhousie on November 13, 2018, 05:46:15 PM
It wasn't bad IMO, good to see the X-15 getting some love.

And I think it is the only depiction of the mission I can recall seeing that shows his descent down the ladder as being tethered.

The scenes with his daughter made me go all misty-eyed......

Some liberties with history (Armstrong's facial injury after his ejection appears to be a shout out to "The right stuff" - as do some of the fuzzy special effects - and he definitely did not go home after his ejection but rather to the office where he carried on with paper work.

A few things made me raise my eyebrows:

The noise and vibration appear to have been exaggerated for dramatic purposes compared to what they actually were.

Were spacecraft interiors really that dimly lit?  Doesn't match photographs from missions.  More a repeat of a trope from everything from Alien to The Expanse (don't get me started).

The grubbiness of the spacecraft interiors does not fit with them being brand new and assembled in clean rooms.

The lunar craters in some shots look like they are from a 1950s movie .

Title: Re: First Man
Post by: Zakalwe on November 14, 2018, 03:52:22 AM
The grubbiness of the spacecraft interiors does not fit with them being brand new and assembled in clean rooms.

Yeah, that stuck out for me too. The interior of the Gemini looked filthy, especially given as they weren't re-used. Put it like this, if that was a used car then I'd be walking away from it.
Title: Re: First Man
Post by: JayUtah on November 14, 2018, 11:32:17 AM
It wasn't bad IMO, good to see the X-15 getting some love.

Richly deserved love, too.  And it makes sense in context since Armstrong remembered his X-15 experience with greater fondness than his Apollo experience.

Quote
And I think it is the only depiction of the mission I can recall seeing that shows his descent down the ladder as being tethered.

My experience with advising indicates that while filmmakers love to collect as much detail as possible, there's a limit to the detail they're actually going to show.  It basically all goes into a notebook to be consulted when specific questions of realism come up -- or embodied in an on-set advisor.  It's likely they identified the tether as a detail that few if any previous depictions had mentioned, and possibly something that would make theirs stand out.

Quote
The scenes with his daughter made me go all misty-eyed......

Of course; the intent was to make a biography, which is eminently about character -- the human story.  We know we can go to any number of documentary films produced over the decades and get a dispassionate story about the details and events.  I gather the intent was not so much to explore Neil Armstrong as an engineer and pilot so much as Neil Armstrong as a husband and father.  Of course the two are the same man, so you can't simply ignore what makes us curious about his life.

Quote
Some liberties with history (Armstrong's facial injury after his ejection appears to be a shout out to "The right stuff" - as do some of the fuzzy special effects...

Indeed.  I went into the film remembering that this is a director who starts his L.A. love story with a production number on a stalled freeway.  I expected it to be a surreal depiction of space exploration in much the same way The Right Stuff was.

Quote
Were spacecraft interiors really that dimly lit?

Not usually, but the dark end of the histogram is where people are shooting these days.  It's stylistic of our period.

Quote
The grubbiness of the spacecraft interiors does not fit with them being brand new and assembled in clean rooms.

Indeed.  Someone in my party leaned over and said, "Someone needs to get in there with some Windex."
Title: Re: First Man
Post by: Glom on November 16, 2018, 06:11:18 AM
I'd be careful about using The Right Stuff as a benchmark for movies celebrating spaceflight.

I got it on blu-ray a little while ago and my watching of it then was an eye opener. I have come to conclusion it is a reverse Starship Troopers. Everyone watching it has missed the point entirely but that missing the point made them love it rather than hate it.

The Right Stuff is in fact saying that the Mercury astronauts were posers and glorified reality TV stars.
Title: Re: First Man
Post by: BDL on November 16, 2018, 09:28:36 AM
Bart Sibrel, Aulis, and a couple others y’all are likely familiar with had something to say about the movie apparently: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/moon-landing-deniers-first-man-movie_us_5bbfcbd4e4b0bd9ed5584e82

Their responses are pretty much what you would expect.
I think one of them believes that the making of the movie proves that making or “faking” it could be done in the 1960’s.
Title: Re: First Man
Post by: BDL on November 16, 2018, 09:34:02 AM
Bart Sibrel compares it to a Christian seeing a movie about evolutionary biology.
Which is ironic considering the overwhelming evidence concerning both Apollo and the theory of evolution. I wonder if he doesn’t believe in evolution? I’ve heard about him becoming a Christian some time ago but wasn’t sure whether to believe it or not.
Title: Re: First Man
Post by: LunarOrbit on November 16, 2018, 09:40:10 AM
Oh, I don't doubt it. One of his big "proofs" that going to the Moon is impossible is that God doesn't let man get too cocky. Dontcha know that God destroyed the tower of Babel because man tried to reach too high, and sank the Titanic because man said it couldn't be sunk?
Title: Re: First Man
Post by: gillianren on November 16, 2018, 11:02:59 AM
I'd also note that that lets him gloss over the fact that a lot of Christians accept evolutionary biology.  Like the Pope.
Title: Re: First Man
Post by: bknight on November 16, 2018, 11:12:10 AM
I'd also note that that lets him gloss over the fact that a lot of Christians accept evolutionary biology.  Like the Pope.


I'd second that thought.
Title: Re: First Man
Post by: Dalhousie on November 17, 2018, 08:32:56 PM
I'd also note that that lets him gloss over the fact that a lot of Christians accept evolutionary biology.  Like the Pope.


I'd second that thought.

This Christian geologist and astrobiologist certainly does!
Title: Re: First Man
Post by: JayUtah on November 19, 2018, 10:20:21 PM
I'd be careful about using The Right Stuff as a benchmark for movies celebrating spaceflight.

I don't.  But it's evocative of a style.  As history, it's sort of the Amadeus of spaceflight.
Title: Re: First Man
Post by: Dalhousie on November 19, 2018, 11:07:37 PM
I'd be careful about using The Right Stuff as a benchmark for movies celebrating spaceflight.


Not using it as a benchmark for movies in spaceflight - there are quite a few I thought better. But pointing out some stylistic similarities and shoutouts.
Title: Re: First Man
Post by: mako88sb on December 18, 2018, 03:14:34 PM
There was also the scene with Neil leaving baby Karen's bracelet on the moon... did that happen? I don't remember it.
AFAIK, that was all artistic licence.

I read an interview with Hansen where he says as much, along with "We don't really know", arguing that no-one ever saw Armstrong's PPK so it could have been. It's a nice thought and I hope it is.

Saw this a few weeks ago and one thing I can't really recall from the book(which I can't seem to find) is why he deviated from the EVA to visit the crater? Seems out of character for someone like him, especially the first manned lunar landing and all the risks that some felt might be present. Anyway, if somebody has the book handy, I'd appreciate what it says about this. While I'm at it, what was Armstrong's response to Yeager's book claiming Neil didn't listen to him in regards to the dry lake bed "touch & go" were they ended up stuck? Pretty sure he hinted that it was actually Yeager who insisted on the "touch & go".
Title: Re: First Man
Post by: Ranb on December 18, 2018, 08:56:36 PM
The Yeager and Armstrong version of events of that day are very different.  Yeager says he tried to talk Armstrong out of the touch and go; Armstrong says that didn't happen.  Also according to Armstrong, Yeager suggested a 2nd touch and go with a slower speed after touching down; that is when the plane got stuck.

The author, James R. Hanson has comments in the book "First Man" about how Yeager's recall of the event seems to change over the years.

I've read a few autobiographies and compared them to biographies written by historians.  While the autobiographical books make for entertaining reading I've found that other books about the same person seem to be more factual, as far as I can tell.  Compare Yeager's autobiography to Louis Rotundo's "Into the Unknown" as well as Gregory Boyington's "Baa Baa Black Sheep" to Bruce Gamble's "Black Sheep One". 
Title: Re: First Man
Post by: Obviousman on December 19, 2018, 01:59:01 AM
...as well as Gregory Boyington's "Baa Baa Black Sheep" to Bruce Gamble's "Black Sheep One". 

Especially concerning the attainment of 'ace' status. I really enjoyed both books but I think the latter has more credence.
Title: Re: First Man
Post by: Ranb on December 19, 2018, 08:47:02 AM
Well, Boyington certainly was an ace, with at least 16 or so planes.  I'd like to read a book about Erich Hartmann from a source more reliable than UFO writer Trevor Constable.
Title: Re: First Man
Post by: mako88sb on December 23, 2018, 10:30:52 AM
The Yeager and Armstrong version of events of that day are very different.  Yeager says he tried to talk Armstrong out of the touch and go; Armstrong says that didn't happen.  Also according to Armstrong, Yeager suggested a 2nd touch and go with a slower speed after touching down; that is when the plane got stuck.

The author, James R. Hanson has comments in the book "First Man" about how Yeager's recall of the event seems to change over the years.


While X-mas shopping I seen the movie cover version of First Man so got a chance to check out what I was asking about. Along with what you said I started a discussion over at a military aviation forum about some of Yeager's claims and many voiced the opinion that there was a lot of embellishment in his books. Probably true and most likely expected.

As for my first question, I guess saying he deviated from the EVA is wrong. They just had some basic guideline not to stray too far from the LM and he felt heading to the crater was a reasonable thing to do to get some photos of it. Whether or not he took a personal minute or 2 will never be known which is the way it should be.
Title: Re: First Man
Post by: Dalhousie on December 29, 2018, 05:27:10 AM
The Yeager and Armstrong version of events of that day are very different.  Yeager says he tried to talk Armstrong out of the touch and go; Armstrong says that didn't happen.  Also according to Armstrong, Yeager suggested a 2nd touch and go with a slower speed after touching down; that is when the plane got stuck.

The author, James R. Hanson has comments in the book "First Man" about how Yeager's recall of the event seems to change over the years.


While X-mas shopping I seen the movie cover version of First Man so got a chance to check out what I was asking about. Along with what you said I started a discussion over at a military aviation forum about some of Yeager's claims and many voiced the opinion that there was a lot of embellishment in his books. Probably true and most likely expected.

As for my first question, I guess saying he deviated from the EVA is wrong. They just had some basic guideline not to stray too far from the LM and he felt heading to the crater was a reasonable thing to do to get some photos of it. Whether or not he took a personal minute or 2 will never be known which is the way it should be.

Yeager's version of several events has been questioned, including that of his NF-104 flight http://www.kalimera.org/nf104/stories/stories_13.html