Author Topic: A Stereoscopic method of verifying Apollo lunar surface images  (Read 13136 times)

Offline Kiwi

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Re: A Stereoscopic method of verifying Apollo lunar surface images
« Reply #15 on: June 30, 2016, 04:36:47 AM »
The biggest flub of the article is taking two photographs that are known to be very likely taken without moving, but only panning and comparing the backgrounds - in which case there should be no parallax at all, and any distortions in the background can only be attributed lens distortions (unless someone can think of something else).

In my opinion the biggest blunder in the article is that the many stereo pairs that were deliberately taken by the astronauts on the moon were not analysed, leaving us to wonder whether the author even knew or cared that such pairs were taken.

Sure, most of them were taken of rocks less than two metres from the camera, both before and after removal as samples, so they do not show distant backgrounds, but there are possibly some that might indeed show distant, but out-of-focus, scenery.

The author says in one of his captions:
Quote
Fig. 25. A stereoscopic pair of AS15-85-11424 and AS15-85-11449; view of Rima Hadley...

There's no way 11424 and 11449 are stereo pairs, but they do show a background that looks very much the same because it is far more distant than the author claims.

AS15-85-11424 was part of Jim Irwin's first Station 2 pan and taken at 122:38:47.

AS15-85-11449 was taken 38 minutes 28 seconds later (at 123:17:15) as part of Irwin's second Station 2 pan at a different location. The foreground is quite different.

Here are just a few genuine Apollo 15 stereo pairs as listed in the ALSJ.
http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/alsj/frame.html
Our "Russian friend" might get slightly more realistic results by analysing some of them after reading their captions and studying the actual journal around the times given:

AS15-82-11093... 165:07:15 Cross-Sun from the north of the first Station 9 sample.
AS15-82-11094... Dave stepped to his left to get this stereo companion to 11093.

AS15-82-11098... Cross-Sun from the north of a Station 9 sample location.
AS15-82-11099... Dave stepped to his right to get this stereo companion to 11098.

AS15-82-11105... 165:10:27 Cross-Sun "before" from the north of the "big one" at Station 9. Note Jim's shadow across the top of the picture.
AS15-82-11106... Dave stepped to his left to get this stereo companion to 11105.

AS15-82-11149... 165:52:40 Jim moved in closer to get this down-Sun of the layered, partially buried boulder.
AS15-82-11150... Jim stepped to his left to get this stereo companion to 11149.

AS15-82-11185... 166:21:59 This is the lefthand member of a stereopair Jim took of the 4-to-5 foot Station 10 boulder with large vesicles.
AS15-82-11186... 166:21:59 Jim stepped to his right to get this stereocompanion to 11185. Eric Nelson has produced a red/blue stereoview of the right-hand portion of the boulder.

AS15-85-11441... 122:59:24 Down-Sun "before" of the comprehensive sample at Station 2. We can see Jim's SCB in his shadow. He is carrying the rake. Dave is standing at the left, taking cross-Sun pictures AS15-86-11567 and 11568.
AS15-85-11442... 122:59:24 Jim has stepped to his right to take this stereo companion to 11441. We can see from the position of Dave's legs that he has turned toward the Station 2 boulder to get "locator" AS15-86-11569. Note that Dave's tongs are stuck in the soil near the boulder.

AS15-86-11536... 122:21:35 Cross-Sun "before" from the north of the third Station 1 sample site.
AS15-86-11537... Dave stepped to his left to get this stereo companion to 11536.

AS15-86-11558... 122:54:12 Cross-Sun "after" of the Station 2 boulder from the uphill side. Note the blue tint of the rock exposed by the removal of the foreground sample. Note that Dave also collected a sample from the top of the rock, directly in front of the tongs.
AS15-86-11559... Stereo companion to 11558, giving a slightly better view of the upper sample location.

AS15-88-11870... 164:03:40 The Apollo 15 Index of 70 mm Photographs (MSC January 12, 1972) describes 11867-71 as showing a "microfilm cassette" taken at Station 8 - Jim's trench at the ALSEP. I am not convinced that Jim took the photos at the ALSEP site but suspect that he took them near the LM after Dave drove off at about 164:03:40. Previously, I had thought that Jim decided to walk out to the ALSEP site because he did not want to waste time getting his seatbelt on. However, it is possible that he also wanted a bit of time to put out the items he was going to leave on the Moon and take documentation photos.]
[In his book To Rule the Night, Jim wrote "There were a number of things we left on the Moon purposely. I left some medallions, flat pieces of silver with the fingerprints of Mary and our children. And as a result of a letter that I got two months before launch, I also left a small portrait of J. B. Irwin. A young lady sent me a picture of her father, J. B. Irwin, saying that he had talked about his desire to go to the Moon all his life. He died a seventy-five, before the first manned landing. I thought it would be a gracious gesture to take J. B.'s picture and leave it on the Moon."]
[In addition, a 28 June 2005 an inquiry to Colin Fries of the NASA Headquarters History office by a writer in Oregon, Sierra Jenkins, brought to my attention an article from the October 2, 1971 edition of The Bulletin, a newspaper published in Bend, Oregon ( 1.2 Mb PDF ). Jim Irwin and other Apollo astronauts did geology field training near Bend on various occasions. According to the newspaper article, during one of these trips Jim met Floyd E. Watson, a building inspector in Bend who, in 1971, sent Jim a "small sliver of Central Oregon lava which I hope will be able to deliver to the Moon for me." The article then mentions a letter Watson received from Irwin in late September, stating "I did carry your sliver of lava to the moon and left it there. I took a picture of the location" The picture, which accompanies the article, is 11870. The inscription appears to be in Jim's hand.]
[Jim took five pictures, AS15-88-11867 - 71 of what are undoubtedly the various items he left on the Moon. Frames 11870 and 11871 form a stereopair. On 15 July 2005, Mike Gentry and Susan Erskine at NASA Johnson provided high-resolution scans from original film of the two frames. The images are slightly out-of-focus and while preparing to make an anaglyph, Andy Chaikin applied the Photoshop Sharp Unmask function to the images and noticed that the object at the lower left, which Jim had turned over after taking 11869, is a black-and-white picture of "an elderly man, balding, with shirt and tie". I had re-read Jim's book the previous evening and was able to remind Andy about the J.B. Irwin story. Given that Jim obliged J. B. Irwin's daughter's request, I am inclined to believe that the Watson story is true. In a detail from 11870 with Sharp Unmask applied ( 655k ), I have marked what I believe is the rock fragment Jim was indicating in the inscribed photo reproduced in The Bulletin.
AS15-88-11871... 164:03:40 Jim stepped to his right and turned to his left to get this stereo-companion to 11870. Andy Chaikin has provided a red-blue anaglyph of 11870 and 71.

AS15-90-12223... 145:33:47 Jim's down-Sun of the first Station 7 sample shows Dave at the right taking his cross-Suns, which are AS15-86- 11662 and 11663.
AS15-90-12224... 145:34:52 Jim has stepped to his left to take this stereo companion to 12223. Dave has finished his pictures and has the tongs open in his right hand. Note the sample bags hanging from the bottom of his camera. Ron Wells has provided a detail ( a15det12224.jpg ) showing Dave's watch. Ron writes that he increased the contrast in the lefthand version and used a contouring program to search for edges in producing the righthand version. A group of ALSJ Contributors see the watch reading either 9:08 to 9:10 or 10:08 to 10:12. Readers can make their own assessments. On the assumption that Jim took 12224 just before his reply to Dave at 145:34:52, the time in Houston is about 10:09 CDT on the morning of 1 August 1971.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2016, 05:02:48 AM by Kiwi »
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Offline onebigmonkey

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Re: A Stereoscopic method of verifying Apollo lunar surface images
« Reply #16 on: June 30, 2016, 05:23:12 AM »
Well you learn something new every day!


Offline bknight

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Re: A Stereoscopic method of verifying Apollo lunar surface images
« Reply #17 on: June 30, 2016, 07:21:21 AM »
Well you learn something new every day!


Ok, what are you showing?
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
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Offline onebigmonkey

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Re: A Stereoscopic method of verifying Apollo lunar surface images
« Reply #18 on: June 30, 2016, 02:09:15 PM »
Ok, what are you showing?

See above :)

Quote
a black-and-white picture of "an elderly man, balding, with shirt and tie"

Offline bknight

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Re: A Stereoscopic method of verifying Apollo lunar surface images
« Reply #19 on: June 30, 2016, 02:30:52 PM »
Ok, what are you showing?

See above :)

Quote
a black-and-white picture of "an elderly man, balding, with shirt and tie"
Ok, this went right over my head, I'm confused. :-[
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
Eugene Cernan

Offline onebigmonkey

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Re: A Stereoscopic method of verifying Apollo lunar surface images
« Reply #20 on: June 30, 2016, 03:10:35 PM »
Ok, what are you showing?

See above :)

Quote
a black-and-white picture of "an elderly man, balding, with shirt and tie"
Ok, this went right over my head, I'm confused. :-[

It's in Kiwi's post about Apollo 15's stereo pairs :)

Offline Willoughby

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Re: A Stereoscopic method of verifying Apollo lunar surface images
« Reply #21 on: June 30, 2016, 04:48:20 PM »
Ok, this went right over my head, I'm confused. :-[

https://www.flickr.com/photos/projectapolloarchive/21668921541/in/album-72157658592471809/

Jim Irwin took this photo of various things he left on the moon on Apollo 15.  The photo above is zoomed in on a partial photograph he left on the moon - as described in the above post by Kiwi.  "onebigmonkey" was just showing the photograph being discussed - and specifically the portion containing that photo of the old bald man!

Offline bknight

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Re: A Stereoscopic method of verifying Apollo lunar surface images
« Reply #22 on: June 30, 2016, 05:39:44 PM »
Ok, this went right over my head, I'm confused. :-[

https://www.flickr.com/photos/projectapolloarchive/21668921541/in/album-72157658592471809/

Jim Irwin took this photo of various things he left on the moon on Apollo 15.  The photo above is zoomed in on a partial photograph he left on the moon - as described in the above post by Kiwi.  "onebigmonkey" was just showing the photograph being discussed - and specifically the portion containing that photo of the old bald man!
Ah those long posts I tend to speed read skipping much of the detail, so I missed that.
Thanks
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
Eugene Cernan

Offline bknight

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Re: A Stereoscopic method of verifying Apollo lunar surface images
« Reply #23 on: June 30, 2016, 05:43:55 PM »
And Jim Irwin after leaving all those mementos on the Lunar surface  was allegedly going to spill the beans to hoaxster Kaysing.  ROTFLMAO. (and the Blunder believes this?) ::)
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
Eugene Cernan

Offline JayUtah

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Re: A Stereoscopic method of verifying Apollo lunar surface images
« Reply #24 on: July 01, 2016, 12:40:52 AM »
Fun fact:  Irwin graduated from the high school just a few blocks from my house, which is the same high school that is featured in the movie High School Musical.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline nomuse

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Re: A Stereoscopic method of verifying Apollo lunar surface images
« Reply #25 on: July 01, 2016, 10:43:07 PM »
Oh, the shame!