Author Topic: How many cubic feet were in the Apollo Command module  (Read 50051 times)

Offline ChrLz

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Re: How many cubic feet were in the Apollo Command module
« Reply #30 on: May 10, 2012, 08:22:15 AM »
Also, Dak, can you answer this question with a Yes or No..

When the Moon is in the daytime sky, does looking at it dazzle or blind you?

After you have answered that question, I'd like you to think a little more deeply..

Imagine it is a very bright, sunny day, about 10am.

Then imagine that..  the sky is dark.  But wait, the Sun is still up there, so one area of the sky is extraordinarily bright.. and the entire landscape is still brightly sunlit.

Now, mainly because of that brightly lit landscape, your eyes will adjust to their normal daylight settings, so the landscape is not all that dazzling (just as the Moon isn't dazzling in the daytime sky)...

As your eyes have adjusted to daylight, you can't see any stars (well, maybe you can spot the planet Venus if you know exactly where to look..), but your view of the sunlit landscape is just fine.

That little thought experiment is exactly what the Moon was like.  Bright daylight, but because of no atmosphere, dark sky.  Because landscape (and LM and astronauts, etc) are all daylit, eyes (and cameras) have to be adjusted for daylight use.

Dak, that is a situation outside our normal experience - there is nothing on earth that comes close to it (-except possibly standing in the middle of an incredibly brightly lit sports stadium (still way way short of sunlit brightness)
But is it really that difficult to imagine how that would work, what it would look like?  Just look at the Apollo photographic record and you will see.

The sad thing is that Apollo deniers all seem to be challenged in their ability to understand things that are not like on earth.  That's quite sad.

But if you can follow that little thought experiment above, perhaps you are a bit better than the average Apollo denier, and you can continue to learn and understand what happened during the Apollo missions, and why things were as they were.  If so, you will discover that learning is fun, and being wrong (and admitting it and moving forward) is a great way to learn new stuff...

Offline Chew

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Re: How many cubic feet were in the Apollo Command module
« Reply #31 on: May 10, 2012, 08:30:06 AM »
Does anyone else on this site other than me think that the moon emits not just a little but an amazing amount of light when it (the MOON) is almost or completely full, and that this light would have absolutely blinded any astronaut on the surface or Spaceship orbiting the MOON!!

As others have mentioned it is called the opposition surge and is not fully understood.

Offline Echnaton

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Re: How many cubic feet were in the Apollo Command module
« Reply #32 on: May 10, 2012, 09:11:59 AM »
To elaborate further on the opposition surge.

Since you have looked at the moon through a telescope, please recount your observations about shadows under these two circumstances. 

1. At the half moon, looking at the area where it transitions from lighted to shaded, is the surface fully lit? 
2. Looking at the full moon, is the surface fully lit or do you see shaded areas? 

With these observations in mind, make a hypothesis about a possible cause of additional brightness of the full moon. 

The sun shone, having no alternative, on the nothing new. —Samuel Beckett

Offline Chew

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Re: How many cubic feet were in the Apollo Command module
« Reply #33 on: May 10, 2012, 11:19:45 AM »
From the Apollo experience report: Command and service module environmental control system (PDF)

is this description of the system:



The "gas free volume", the pressurized volume of the CM, is larger than the habitable volume.

This information is easily found on the NASA Technical Reports Server.

Now you need to find the volume of all the components you listed in your video and add them up if you want to support your claim that there was too much stuff to fit in the CM.

Offline sts60

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Re: How many cubic feet were in the Apollo Command module
« Reply #34 on: May 10, 2012, 11:52:02 AM »
I don't really consider myself a Conspiracy Theorist but I do think that the record of the Apollo Program and at least 75 percent of everything I learned in school about space is completely FALSE.

If that were true, you are necessarily a conspiracy theorist, because for the Apollo record to be false would require a conspiracy of truly staggering proportions.

I also want to say three years ago when I realized The Apollo Program as we (the public) were told In my opinion is not and was not possible it was one of the most traumatic events in my life (forever changing my concept of reality), and if anyone could convince me that the official Apollo record was even close to true I would be forever indebted.

Sure, but that depends on how willing you are to consider the evidence.

I to believe that I have gone at least a little CRAZY since I started watching and trying to understand the MOON maybe that's because when the moon is filling up I stay up all night on my roof (I cut a door to above the garage) taking pictures and messing with telescopes, cameras binoculars, flashlights and cell phone star and planet charts.

Heh, there's a reason it's called "lunacy".

Does anyone else on this site other than me think that the moon emits not just a little but an amazing amount of light when it (the MOON) is almost or completely full,

It does reflect more light at opposition due to optical effects (not just the larger illuminated amount).

and that this light would have absolutely blinded any astronaut on the surface or Spaceship orbiting the MOON!!

First of all, if the attached picture is of you, it seems like you could close the hatches and fly there yourself to check it out ;-)

Second, the lunar surface during its day is not substantially brighter than that of the desert where I grew up.  I didn't have to wear sunglasses, and the astronauts had adjustable shielding for their eyes.

Offline JayUtah

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Re: How many cubic feet were in the Apollo Command module
« Reply #35 on: May 10, 2012, 01:33:53 PM »
...I am way out of my league debating with you guys and girls.

Not to seem immodest, but nearly all hoax proponents are.  There's a reason why the ranks of hoax believers don't include engineers, technicians, or scientists:  those professions provide the training and experience to comprehend how Apollo was accomplished, where layman does not.

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I have really enjoyed reading your replies and frankly I am very surprised I haven't been removed from the site.

This is not one of those sites that sends you packing simply for disagreeing with the regulars.  It's meant to entertain debate and disagreement, and the guidelines are to facilitate the debate, not to enforce a particular point of view.  You get points for why you believe something, not what.

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I don't really consider myself a Conspiracy Theorist but I do think that the record of the Apollo Program and at least 75 percent of everything I learned in school about space is completely FALSE.

I don't know what you learned in school, but the Apollo program is well supported in the relevant industries and science by sound practices and principles.  There is absolutely no doubt among the relevant professions that Apollo was real and happened substantially as documented.  There is no suspicion among the relevant professions that the record of the Apollo development and operation has been tampered with or falsified.  Those claims arise solely among a small but noisy minority who have no relevant knowledge, little interest in acquiring it, and what turns out invariably to be political and social reasons for their disbelief.

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...if anyone could convince me that the official Apollo record was even close to true I would be forever indebted.

This is the group to do that, but you need to be aware that every single conspiracy theorist tells the same story.  They all say that they were once staunch believers and even fans of the U.S. space program, that they were convinced by the hoax evidence, became despondent, and now wish that someone would restore their faith.  The problem is that the hoax arguments are pretty clearly bunk, very easy to debunk, and that the people who came before you begging us to restore their faith usually cling pretty desperately to their hoax beliefs.  That's a lot of baggage for you to have to carry, so you'll have to work hard to distance yourself from your predecessors.

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If the Command Module is 400 plus Square feet I am very embarrassed.

The command module is a container within a container, as most spacecraft and aircraft are.  If you fill up a swimming pool to the brim, sink a command module in it, and measure the amount of water that spills out, you'll come up with around 400 cubic feet of water.  You'll get about the same volume if you go through the analytical geometry method and measure the dimensions and apply the proper formulas.

Ah, but if you opened the lid and poured water in the top, how much would you need to add before it fills up?  Only 200-300 cubic feet.

How does that work?  Because when you dunk the CM in a swimming pool you're measuring the total volume of the outside container.  When you pour water in the top, you're measuring the pressurized volume -- the inner container.  The difference between the 300 cubic feet inside and the 400 cubic feet outside is the space between the inner container (the pressurized crew compartment) and the outer shell.

We get the 200 cubic feet of habitable volume because some of the CM's equipment necessarily lives inside that pressurized crew compartment.  All the wiring and electronics behind the control panels is part of the pressurized volume because air gets back there.  But it's not part of the habitable volume because the crew can't crawl back behind the control panels.  Ditto for things like storage lockers.

All the numbers mean something.  To the engineer computing the buoyancy of the CM, the proper value to use would be the outside volume because he's determining the displacement and overall effective mass density of the vehicle.  To the engineer designing the air scrubber, the pressurized volume is the right value because he's got to size the fans and duct work to achieve the proper gas exchange rate.  To the engineers planning the cabin layout, the habitable volume is the right value.

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Does anyone else on this site other than me think that the moon emits not just a little but an amazing amount of light when it (the MOON) is almost or completely full...

You're using the word "emit" wrong.

To emit light means that the light originates there and is generated by the emitting object by means of some latent or ongoing process.  Plasma does this in the form of a fire flame (ongoing combustion).  Incandescent light filaments do this (ongoing response to electrical resistance heating).  Phosphorescent ("glow in the dark") objects do this (latent effect).  Hot metal in a furnace or forge does this (radiation of stored heat).  The Moon does not do this.  The Moon does not generate visible light.

To reflect light means that light that originated elsewhere bounces off it.  All objects do this to some extent, otherwise you couldn't see them at all.  That is, seeing things means seeing the light that has reflected off of it.  The Moon does this.  What you see in the night sky is the sunlit Moon seen against the blackness of space.  You can't see the Sun because the Earth is in the way, underneath you.  But where the Moon is, way out in space, the sunlight reaches it.  And this reflected sunlight is what you see.

And a portion of the sunlight that's reflecting off the Earth (which is on average three times the better reflector than the Moon) strikes the part of the Moon that the sunlight isn't reaching, and then reflects back to Earth where you see it as a faint illumination of the "dark" side.  As an engineer, I study and use complex interreflections such as this in the science of photometry, to determine whether designs destined for space will reflect light energy in ways that overheat the design.  As a photographer, I use complex interreflections to achieve an aesthetic result.

And for the sake of completeness, to transmit light means to let it pass completely through -- i.e., transparency or translucency.  The Moon doesn't do this, but every bit of light seen coming from an object is accounted as reflection, emission, or transmission.  Similarly, every bit of light striking an object goes toward reflection, absorption, or transmission.  Yes, there is fluorescence, but I'm not going to go there in this post.  All the light energy arriving at or leaving an object has to be accounted for in those models.  Light seen coming from the Moon is reflected light only.

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...and that this light would have absolutely blinded any astronaut on the surface or Spaceship orbiting the MOON!!

No.

This is simply wrong.  You're considering the Moon as an emitter of light, when in fact it is only a reflector.

The only significant source of emitted light in the solar system is the Sun.  Everything we see in the solar system is visible only because we see the sunlight reflected from it.

Reckoned by planetary albedo, the Earth is almost three times a better reflector than the Moon.  The light seen coming from the Earth, in orbit or faraway in space, is sunlight reflected from Earth.  The astronauts in the space station or space shuttle aren't blinded by light.  Your eyes are only a couple of meters away from the Earth's surface and you aren't blinded -- well, not immediately.  (Recall the plight of desert dwellers.)  And that's sunlight at almost full strength (cf. atmospheric attenuation) hitting a reflector with a reflectivity index of about 30%.  The Moon generally can manage only about a third of that, so whether 2 meters or 2,000 meters above it, you're simply not going to be blinded by reflect sunlight from it.

I'm not sure how to make this any clearer.  You're continuing to labor under the false assumption that the Moon appears bright to you at night because it's blazing with its own light at an incredible intensity.  No, that's simply wrong.

Now why does the Moon appear brighter when full?  It's not just your imagination; the Moon is measured as four times brighter when full than at half phase, not twice as bright -- the way you'd think.

This is for two reasons.  First, it's a textured object.  As others have told you to check, the Moon at half phase is a patchwork of bright and dark, because objects are casting shadows.  Elements of the Moon's texture (hills, valleys, craters, mountains, etc.) cast shadows from the grandest mountain scale to the tinest dust particle.  This cumulative effect just makes the Moon seem overall brighter or dimmer depending on phase angle.  This is a property all textured objects share when used as reflectors.

Here are some photos I took.  http://www.clavius.org/shad15.html

In the top photos, the phase angle is large:  I'm looking down over the objects while the sun is low on the horizon.  The ground appears dark because a lot of it is shade and shadow.  In the bottom photos I've stepped away and my line of sight is more horizontal, more along the way the light is shining.  The ground appears lighter because those texture elements (i.e., the gravel) are now hiding their own shadows from me.

This is even more apparent in Figs. 5 and 6 on this page, also taken by me:  http://www.clavius.org/manmoon.html

From a distance you can't see the detail in the shade or shadow; it just appears overall darker or lighter.

There's another effect.  In addition to being a textured object and therefore naturally a better retroreflector, the Moon's surface is composed of a regolith (dust) that contains a high proportion of tiny glass spheres call spherules.  These are formed when impacts generate a huge amount of ejected material that's very hot.   As you know, glass is just heated-up and fused mineral, so these droplets of matter blasted into space by an impact cool and fall back down to the Moon's surface as perfect little transparent spheres.  These have the property of preferentially reflecting light back the way they came.  We use this property to make roadway paint and the paint for license plates on cars.  "Reflectors" made intentionally for high visibility exploit this property that occurs naturally on the lunar surface.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline gillianren

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Re: How many cubic feet were in the Apollo Command module
« Reply #36 on: May 10, 2012, 01:39:43 PM »
Yeah, as resident Word Person, let me chime in that you cannot simultaneously doubt the Apollo record and not be a conspiracy theorist.  I suspect you don't want to be lumped in with Those Guys, and I certainly don't blame you for that.  Those Guys are not desirable company to be in, even just intellectually.  (For my tastes, especially intellectually!)  But if I'm reading this right (I'm probably also resident Psychology Person, though I'm certainly not trained in the field and am merely a really experienced amateur), think about why it bothers you.  Is it just the label?  Well, the label has been applied because it's accurate, except that "theory" is not the word.  However, we've none of us been able to agree on a replacement, which is why I've started using the term "conspiracist" instead.

But the thing is, in order to deny the reality of something like Apollo, or even just to say "I don't think the record is an accurate depiction of what happened," you do need to accept and even assume a conspiracy of some sort.  It's just not possible for a fake Apollo record to have leaped into existence and been accepted by the people who would have been involved in creating the real one.  The most obvious example is the astronauts; even if you assume that most people working on Apollo didn't know how the whole record hung together--and I have to say I'm a bit in that camp myself, though I still acknowledge that literally thousands of people did--the astronauts definitely know the truth of what happened.  A lot of conspiracists shy away from calling them liars, because those men (at least those men whose names the general public remembers!) are rightly considered heroes.  However, if you do not believe the Apollo record was valid, you are calling them liars by definition, because they have treated the Apollo record as fact.

Can I ask you what, why, and how?  What was faked/what was real?  Why was it faked?  How was it faked?  And a bonus question--if it was faked, why do so many experts believe it was real?
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Offline Echnaton

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Re: How many cubic feet were in the Apollo Command module
« Reply #37 on: May 10, 2012, 02:25:15 PM »
Yeah, as resident Word Person, let me chime in that you cannot simultaneously doubt the Apollo record and not be a conspiracy theorist.

This sentiment has been posted several times and I believe it is untrue. 

So far DAKDAK has committed the logical fallacy of disbelief based on incredulity.  His main point is not the assertion that the record is fraudulent but that he just can't believe the record of the moon landing is correct.  Part of that incredulity derives from an incorrect understanding of physics.  As the above statement and others have pointed out, there are few other logical options if one doubts the veracity of the Apollo record and it is reasonable to say that a conspiracy is implied by logic.  Nevertheless one who doubts based on a fallacy can maintain that state without the requirement of holding any opinion regarding a conspiracy or any other option. 
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Offline sts60

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Re: How many cubic feet were in the Apollo Command module
« Reply #38 on: May 10, 2012, 02:58:09 PM »
Yeah, as resident Word Person, let me chime in that you cannot simultaneously doubt the Apollo record and not be a conspiracy theorist.

This sentiment has been posted several times and I believe it is untrue. 

So far DAKDAK has committed the logical fallacy of disbelief based on incredulity.  His main point is not the assertion that the record is fraudulent but that he just can't believe the record of the moon landing is correct.  Part of that incredulity derives from an incorrect understanding of physics.  As the above statement and others have pointed out, there are few other logical options if one doubts the veracity of the Apollo record and it is reasonable to say that a conspiracy is implied by logic.  Nevertheless one who doubts based on a fallacy can maintain that state without the requirement of holding any opinion regarding a conspiracy or any other option.
Sorry, but DAKDAK said (bolding mine):
Quote from: DAKDAK
I don't really consider myself a Conspiracy Theorist but I do think that the record of the Apollo Program and at least 75 percent of everything I learned in school about space is completely FALSE.
That requires the record to be falsified, especially (as gillianren pointed out) the direct observations of the astronauts, which is the most obvious part of the record.  There's no way around this. 

Of course, there's much more that would have to be part of a conspiracy in order for his observation to be true, but even the most superficial view of Apollo-as-fake means one believes in a conspiracy involving at a theoretical minimum a couple of dozen guys.  He may or may not want to think of it that way, but he is absolutely claiming a conspiracy and calling them liars.

[ Edit: fixed formatting. ]
« Last Edit: May 10, 2012, 02:59:49 PM by sts60 »

Offline sts60

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Re: How many cubic feet were in the Apollo Command module
« Reply #39 on: May 10, 2012, 03:01:21 PM »
Sadly, it's entirely possible that 3/4 of what he was told about space in school was wrong, with no conspiracy needed - just a poor science curriculum.

Offline gillianren

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Re: How many cubic feet were in the Apollo Command module
« Reply #40 on: May 10, 2012, 03:03:28 PM »
Yes, but he does specifically say the Apollo record is also false, not just most of what he learned in school.  What he learned in school can be chalked up to having had lousy science teachers.  The Apollo record cannot.  The Apollo record stands on its own merits regardless of the quality of anyone's science teachers.
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Offline gillianren

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Re: How many cubic feet were in the Apollo Command module
« Reply #41 on: May 10, 2012, 03:06:39 PM »
I suppose, on further thought, that at least part of the reason I think the word "conspiracist" is better than the phrase "conspiracy theorist" is that Dakdak, or anyone else, does not have to know with what they'd replace the Apollo record in order to believe that there was a conspiracy.  "I just think there was one" is not, by any reasonable definition, conspiracy theorizing.  It requires having a theory as to exactly what happened in order to really be a conspiracy theorist.  Dakdak may just have a belief that there is a conspiracy, which to my mind qualifies him as a conspiracist, but if he doesn't have a replacement for the record, he cannot really be a conspiracy theorist.  This may be more word geekery than is necessary, but I don't have a lot to do with my time, so I think a lot about words.
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Offline Bob B.

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Re: How many cubic feet were in the Apollo Command module
« Reply #42 on: May 10, 2012, 07:42:09 PM »
For the record, I've revised my calculation of the CM's total volume to 580 cubic feet.  This is based on the CM's actual geometry and dimensions as best as I could determine.  There were a few gaps that I had to fill in with guesstimates, so I could still be off a little bit.  Nonetheless, this should be pretty close to the correct number.

Offline Mr Gorsky

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Re: How many cubic feet were in the Apollo Command module
« Reply #43 on: May 11, 2012, 06:31:29 AM »
The command module is a container within a container, as most spacecraft and aircraft are.

And not just spacecraft and aircraft. The issue isn't exactly analogous, but my car is the same. If I dunked my car in the pool, the water displaced would be equivalent to the total volume of the external shell. If I fill up the passenger compartment, significantly less water would be required because it doesn't for the engine compartment (which is full of engine) and the boot which (in my case) is full of musical instruments and PA equipment. Which is the correct volume of the car? Actually, both are.
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Offline gillianren

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Re: How many cubic feet were in the Apollo Command module
« Reply #44 on: May 11, 2012, 01:28:23 PM »
Though of course your car is a lot more likely to leak than a spacecraft or aircraft.
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