Author Topic: What's with this ISIS buisness?  (Read 7955 times)

Offline Jason Thompson

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Re: What's with this ISIS buisness?
« Reply #75 on: July 06, 2017, 07:48:26 AM »
You are not int heir place and if you were i bet you would want those who did those atrocities to your loved ones face the death penalty.

You would lose that bet with me. We abolished the death penalty some time ago and I am happy to keep it that way.
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Offline gillianren

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Re: What's with this ISIS buisness?
« Reply #76 on: July 06, 2017, 11:19:47 AM »
No nation should be wiped off the face of the Earth, and it is simply vile to say so.  Terrorists?  Okay, so you kill all the terrorists--then what?  How do their families feel?  Their friends?  Are they going to be on your side, or have you just convinced them to rise up against you?  "Wipe them off the face of the Earth" is simplistic thinking that got us in this situation in the first place, along with "the local people don't need to have a say in what country they belong to."

If you kill you get killed. Even in the states, the death penalty is there. No one cares about how the families of the killers of children think. Same goes here. 

Anyone with any sense does.  Not just because those families are human as well but because, well, you actually want to stop terrorism, right?  Or do you just want to revel in revenge?  Because the most sensible way to stop terrorism is caring what those people think.  It might stop the conditions that radicalize them in the first place and create terrorism, whereas "wiping them off the face of the Earth," ye Gods, is just breeding up a new generation.

As far as the death penalty is concerned?  Yes, that is one of the ways my country is uncivilized.  I have a list.  It's long.  And one of them is how many people on Death Row are innocent, surely something that ought to be of concern to even the most fervent death penalty supporter.  Our judicial system is too flawed for us to even consider killing people.  And that's even if the death penalty were something I approved of in a perfect system, which I don't.
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Offline Glom

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Re: What's with this ISIS buisness?
« Reply #77 on: July 16, 2017, 03:28:55 AM »
All these acid attacks in London are really distressing to hear about. It is particularly distressing because it is so easy to dismiss ISIS as barbarians, evolutionary throwbacks, with their brutality and their cruelty. But acid attacks are on that same level.  Unspeakably cruel and barbaric. Barbarians are our own.

Offline Zakalwe

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Re: What's with this ISIS buisness?
« Reply #78 on: July 17, 2017, 08:31:28 AM »

He was badly treated so he retaliated. This is different than getting children and smashing them in a bakery, cutting throats, drowning and burning people. The victims' families deserve some relief feeling that justice is done. You are not int heir place and if you were i bet you would want those who did those atrocities to your loved ones face the death penalty.

This is why we have a justice system and we don't rely on the families of the aggrieved to met out punishments. You cannot rely on a devastated family to have impartiality.

The usa are not civilized?
Compared to places like North Korea or Syria, the US is civilised. Compared to the rest of the modern developed world the US is positively barbaric. It has the highest number or homicides, has more people in prison (even more than Russia!) and executes more prisoners than anywhere else in the civilised world. Gun ownership is rife and mass shootings of innocents are a daily occurrence. In many, many ways the US is a horrific, barbaric place.

Whatever..this is not the topic anyways
Thanks, but I'll leave the moderation of topics to LunarOrbit.
It's very much on-topic as you are calling for Bronze-Age punishments such as an "eye-for-an-eye". That sort of stuff appeals to the religious fundamentalists that you get in countries like the Islamic States and in many parts of the US. Many of the US' problems can be traced directly back to bible-bashing politicians pandering to knuckle-dragging religionists.

All these acid attacks in London are really distressing to hear about. It is particularly distressing because it is so easy to dismiss ISIS as barbarians, evolutionary throwbacks, with their brutality and their cruelty. But acid attacks are on that same level.  Unspeakably cruel and barbaric. Barbarians are our own.
I think that the acid attacks were worse in some respects. ISIS and their ilk are fighting for twisted beliefs, whereas the acid attacks were carried out by teenagers intent on robbing someone of a poxy scooter worth a few hundred pounds. To have that little regard for another person and to be prepared to inflict lifelong injuries for something of so little value shows just how low some people are.
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Offline Halcyon Dayz, FCD

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Re: What's with this ISIS buisness?
« Reply #79 on: July 17, 2017, 09:05:42 AM »
This is why we have a justice system and we don't rely on the families of the aggrieved to met out punishments. You cannot rely on a devastated family to have impartiality.
I think the original reason for having a justice system was because feuds are disruptive and destructive.
They make it so much harder to have a society at all.

Having someone to strong to fight against, the (proto-)state, cutting the knot and breaking the cycle of revenge benefited everybody.
Imparting impartial justice (whatever that is) was secondary.
Hatred is a cancer upon the world.
It rots the mind and blackens the heart.

Offline sandopan

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Re: What's with this ISIS buisness?
« Reply #80 on: July 17, 2017, 09:35:53 AM »
Our judicial system is too flawed for us to even consider killing people.

Something like 1,400 people who have passed through the flawed judicial system in your country have been executed since reinstatement of the death penalty in 1976.

Want to guess how many foreign civilians have been killed by your government this year alone, with the benefit of no judicial system at all?
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Offline gillianren

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Re: What's with this ISIS buisness?
« Reply #81 on: July 17, 2017, 11:19:05 AM »
Too many.
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Offline smartcooky

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Re: What's with this ISIS buisness?
« Reply #82 on: July 17, 2017, 06:57:12 PM »
Our judicial system is too flawed for us to even consider killing people.

Something like 1,400 people who have passed through the flawed judicial system in your country have been executed since reinstatement of the death penalty in 1976.

Want to guess how many foreign civilians have been killed by your government this year alone, with the benefit of no judicial system at all?


I'd guess it would be in the high multiple tens of thousands, perhaps even higher.
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Offline Geordie

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Re: What's with this ISIS buisness?
« Reply #83 on: July 21, 2017, 04:51:07 AM »
If you kill you get killed. Even in the states, the death penalty is there. No one cares about how the families of the killers of children think. Same goes here.

It's not as simple as you think. For example Omar Khadr, a Canadian citizen who pleaded guilty to killing an American soldier in Afghanistan, far from being killed for killing, is, it emerged over the weekend, being paid 10.5 million dollars by the Canadian government for the way he was treated after being captured on the battlefield.

More of that sort of thing would be the result of attempting to wipe all members of an identifiable group off the map, in my opinion.

He was badly treated so he retaliated. This is different than getting children and smashing them in a bakery, cutting throats, drowning and burning people. The victims' families deserve some relief feeling that justice is done. You are not int heir place and if you were i bet you would want those who did those atrocities to your loved ones face the death penalty. They even get out of prisons and never repent. What would deter them from doing all this? Ok i agree there should be compulsory education and ways to decrease poverty, and rehabilitation programs. If this doesn't work, like with osama bin laden who was very rich and still a terrorist..what to do? Put them innprison for life? Ok be it..just don't let them live among normal people. They will spoil the youth

Any captured, repatriated, and convicted Canadian terrorists would likely not serve a full life sentence (although not repenting would affect their ability to be paroled), and upon release would likely live among normal people.

 Ottawa may have no choice but to repatriate, prosecute captured Canadian ISIL members

Quote
Some experts say Ottawa has no choice but to try to repatriate and prosecute in Canada any detained ISIL members, ensuring they aren’t tortured or otherwise mistreated by local forces. As for those ISIL children, if they have one Canadian parent, they would be citizens and, lawyers say, deserve help.

Others note there would be little public sympathy — especially after the controversial payment made to Omar Khadr — for bringing back foreign fighters, even if they were to face justice in Canada.

The issue is not just an academic one. Unconfirmed reports suggest 20 female foreign participants in ISIL were caught by Iraqi forces in Mosul last weekend. Local media outlets suggested two were Canadians, though Iraqi sources have told the National Post the group included only Russian, French and German women.

Regardless, federal officials have told Dawson they are discussing the prospect of Canadian ISIL activists surfacing overseas, and seem to have come to some firm conclusions about what to do.

“They always stress … ‘We cannot in any way afford to allow our actions to result in a Canadian citizen receiving basically torture, or abuse. That will never happen again’.”

Turning a blind eye to maltreatment by Iraqis or others could lead to a human-rights claim like Khadr’s, Dawson said. Though accused of killing an American soldier while a teenage member of al-Qaida, Khadr received a $10.5-million settlement recently over Canada’s role in his torture and other rights violations while in U.S. military custody.

Estimates from the government and outside researchers suggest as many as 100 Canadians have travelled to Iraq or Syria to join ISIL, including 15 to 20 women, most of whom have reportedly had children there.
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             She's on fire\  With the heat of the beat right beneath her feet\
              She's on fire\  And the name of the game is to fuel her flame\
               She's on fire, fire, fire, fire, fire!

Offline LionKing

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Re: What's with this ISIS buisness?
« Reply #84 on: August 19, 2017, 01:07:43 PM »
Now the time of Lebanon to get rid of terrorists of ISIS. "now we have the weapons from USA and the British" as the army spokesman said..the question is: why until now?

anyways, with all the victories the army did today, still I feel sorry about the rumors we are hearing that there is a cave with corpses that could be for the soldiers kidnapped since some years.. :( their poor parents have been demonstrating and following up since years.
"Concern should drive us into action and not into a depression. No man is free who cannot control himself"― Pythagoras

Offline Geordie

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Re: What's with this ISIS buisness?
« Reply #85 on: August 19, 2017, 01:57:04 PM »
Now the time of Lebanon to get rid of terrorists of ISIS. "now we have the weapons from USA and the British" as the army spokesman said..the question is: why until now?

anyways, with all the victories the army did today, still I feel sorry about the rumors we are hearing that there is a cave with corpses that could be for the soldiers kidnapped since some years.. :( their poor parents have been demonstrating and following up since years.

Hi, LionKing - I hope things are at least somewhat okay in your neck of the woods.  :D

Could you post a link or two to what you are talking about here, or simply elaborate on it?

That would make dialogue so much easier.

Thanks!
.           She's on fire\  And she burns through the night at the speed of light\
             She's on fire\  With the heat of the beat right beneath her feet\
              She's on fire\  And the name of the game is to fuel her flame\
               She's on fire, fire, fire, fire, fire!

Offline LionKing

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Re: What's with this ISIS buisness?
« Reply #86 on: August 20, 2017, 04:16:14 AM »
Now the time of Lebanon to get rid of terrorists of ISIS. "now we have the weapons from USA and the British" as the army spokesman said..the question is: why until now?

anyways, with all the victories the army did today, still I feel sorry about the rumors we are hearing that there is a cave with corpses that could be for the soldiers kidnapped since some years.. :( their poor parents have been demonstrating and following up since years.

Hi, LionKing - I hope things are at least somewhat okay in your neck of the woods.  :D

Could you post a link or two to what you are talking about here, or simply elaborate on it?

That would make dialogue so much easier.

Thanks!

Thanks Geordie. I am far away in Beirut the capital. Those are in outskirts of the Bekaa. Some youth from my village however are enrolled in the army and are at the fronts now.

What I was saying that I heard the army spokesman (could not find yet a link) saying that we have weapons from the British and the US and there is now political cover, so I was wondering why until now that all this political cover happened. There have always been this weaponry help, but there was no determination or political cover to uproot ISIS, although they kidnapped soldiers.  Here, there have been skirmishes here and there with al nusra but not like this time..the army is determined and it is "official war". That took a long time to happen, however. it happened because ISIS is weakened now with all the strikes it has been receiving in nearby countries so we can finish them off. But, those nearby countries have been suffering since 2011 (the syrian revolution) from such terrorists. Why until now that everywhere they are being finishes off.. and not before
« Last Edit: August 20, 2017, 04:24:21 AM by LionKing »
"Concern should drive us into action and not into a depression. No man is free who cannot control himself"― Pythagoras

Offline Geordie

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Re: What's with this ISIS buisness?
« Reply #87 on: August 20, 2017, 03:55:05 PM »
Now the time of Lebanon to get rid of terrorists of ISIS. "now we have the weapons from USA and the British" as the army spokesman said..the question is: why until now?

anyways, with all the victories the army did today, still I feel sorry about the rumors we are hearing that there is a cave with corpses that could be for the soldiers kidnapped since some years.. :( their poor parents have been demonstrating and following up since years.

Hi, LionKing - I hope things are at least somewhat okay in your neck of the woods.  :D

Could you post a link or two to what you are talking about here, or simply elaborate on it?

That would make dialogue so much easier.

Thanks!

Thanks Geordie. I am far away in Beirut the capital. Those are in outskirts of the Bekaa. Some youth from my village however are enrolled in the army and are at the fronts now.

What I was saying that I heard the army spokesman (could not find yet a link) saying that we have weapons from the British and the US and there is now political cover, so I was wondering why until now that all this political cover happened. There have always been this weaponry help, but there was no determination or political cover to uproot ISIS, although they kidnapped soldiers.  Here, there have been skirmishes here and there with al nusra but not like this time..the army is determined and it is "official war". That took a long time to happen, however. it happened because ISIS is weakened now with all the strikes it has been receiving in nearby countries so we can finish them off. But, those nearby countries have been suffering since 2011 (the syrian revolution) from such terrorists. Why until now that everywhere they are being finishes off.. and not before

Thanks for your reply, LionKing.

My cynical, two-bit analysis of your situation is this: risk aversion. Democracy's best friend. There's political cover now because there is no longer much, if any, risk of losing. Of losing both the war and the next election. It's easy to jump on the bandwagon when the other side has been attritioned down by someone else's citizens. What's the test to determine whether or not to send in the troops? It's this: do the people who need protection have the vote in your country? If they do, then risk it. If they don't, eff 'em. Did I mention that I'm cynical?

I'm old enough to remember the seventies and eighties when Beirut was in the news daily, for all the wrong reasons. I can't imagine what it is like to live that close to the action. We suffer from politically motivated decisions (and lack thereof) here, too, except our problems are a joke when compared to yours. (Not entirely, many of our communities don't have safe water to drink; are plagued with through-the-roof suicide rates; have hundreds of fentanyl overdose deaths per year. The list goes on and on. Any money spent on those problems would have had to come out of the funds that were used to host two world's fairs, three Olympic games, and possibly the 2026 FIFA World Cup. You have to get your priorities straight, after all. Our government doesn't promote that information, for some reason....)

Us non-American-northern-north-americans like to think that the events in far-off Lebanon and Syria, etc., have no direct impact on our lives. But there are a growing number of people who (A), have never set foot in Canada, (B), have lived their entire lives in ISIS encampments, etc., and (C), enjoy full Canadian citizenship; who could conceivably show up here at anytime and waltz right in. I can imagine all sorts of messed-up scenarios arising over the next two or three decades.

  You've only had to run so far
  So good
  But you will come to a place
  Where the only thing you feel
  Are loaded guns in your face
  And you'll have to deal with
  Pressure


  -Billy Joel, Pressure

On the other hand, Canadian-born Omar Khadr was taken to Afghanistan when he was very young, fought for the Taliban, and wound up in Guantanamo Bay; but yada yada yada he's now a productive member of society in Edmonton, Alberta.

Hollow to say though it is, I hope you, your country, and your region enjoy peace, sooner rather than later.

.           She's on fire\  And she burns through the night at the speed of light\
             She's on fire\  With the heat of the beat right beneath her feet\
              She's on fire\  And the name of the game is to fuel her flame\
               She's on fire, fire, fire, fire, fire!

Offline LionKing

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Re: What's with this ISIS buisness?
« Reply #88 on: August 21, 2017, 08:30:19 AM »
Now the time of Lebanon to get rid of terrorists of ISIS. "now we have the weapons from USA and the British" as the army spokesman said..the question is: why until now?

anyways, with all the victories the army did today, still I feel sorry about the rumors we are hearing that there is a cave with corpses that could be for the soldiers kidnapped since some years.. :( their poor parents have been demonstrating and following up since years.

Hi, LionKing - I hope things are at least somewhat okay in your neck of the woods.  :D

Could you post a link or two to what you are talking about here, or simply elaborate on it?

That would make dialogue so much easier.

Thanks!

Thanks Geordie. I am far away in Beirut the capital. Those are in outskirts of the Bekaa. Some youth from my village however are enrolled in the army and are at the fronts now.

What I was saying that I heard the army spokesman (could not find yet a link) saying that we have weapons from the British and the US and there is now political cover, so I was wondering why until now that all this political cover happened. There have always been this weaponry help, but there was no determination or political cover to uproot ISIS, although they kidnapped soldiers.  Here, there have been skirmishes here and there with al nusra but not like this time..the army is determined and it is "official war". That took a long time to happen, however. it happened because ISIS is weakened now with all the strikes it has been receiving in nearby countries so we can finish them off. But, those nearby countries have been suffering since 2011 (the syrian revolution) from such terrorists. Why until now that everywhere they are being finishes off.. and not before

Thanks for your reply, LionKing.

My cynical, two-bit analysis of your situation is this: risk aversion. Democracy's best friend. There's political cover now because there is no longer much, if any, risk of losing. Of losing both the war and the next election. It's easy to jump on the bandwagon when the other side has been attritioned down by someone else's citizens. What's the test to determine whether or not to send in the troops? It's this: do the people who need protection have the vote in your country? If they do, then risk it. If they don't, eff 'em. Did I mention that I'm cynical?

I'm old enough to remember the seventies and eighties when Beirut was in the news daily, for all the wrong reasons. I can't imagine what it is like to live that close to the action. We suffer from politically motivated decisions (and lack thereof) here, too, except our problems are a joke when compared to yours. (Not entirely, many of our communities don't have safe water to drink; are plagued with through-the-roof suicide rates; have hundreds of fentanyl overdose deaths per year. The list goes on and on. Any money spent on those problems would have had to come out of the funds that were used to host two world's fairs, three Olympic games, and possibly the 2026 FIFA World Cup. You have to get your priorities straight, after all. Our government doesn't promote that information, for some reason....)

Us non-American-northern-north-americans like to think that the events in far-off Lebanon and Syria, etc., have no direct impact on our lives. But there are a growing number of people who (A), have never set foot in Canada, (B), have lived their entire lives in ISIS encampments, etc., and (C), enjoy full Canadian citizenship; who could conceivably show up here at anytime and waltz right in. I can imagine all sorts of messed-up scenarios arising over the next two or three decades.

  You've only had to run so far
  So good
  But you will come to a place
  Where the only thing you feel
  Are loaded guns in your face
  And you'll have to deal with
  Pressure


  -Billy Joel, Pressure

On the other hand, Canadian-born Omar Khadr was taken to Afghanistan when he was very young, fought for the Taliban, and wound up in Guantanamo Bay; but yada yada yada he's now a productive member of society in Edmonton, Alberta.

Hollow to say though it is, I hope you, your country, and your region enjoy peace, sooner rather than later.

Thank you Georgie for your good wishes and the good analysis... Yes, *sigh* the political parties and their hidden agendas .. although fighting ISIS admittedly would have cost us more lives when it was stronger.. this is why I stopped supporting any of them..I was younger and affected bythe assassinations happening..not knowing it is  all a thieves' fight ..

anyways, hope a ISIS-free region would still be a better region, and a better world for all, including the people in the west who are receiving refugees and their politicians paying the money for wars rather than helping them out.

Stay good
"Concern should drive us into action and not into a depression. No man is free who cannot control himself"― Pythagoras