Author Topic: What's with this ISIS buisness?  (Read 7581 times)

Offline Peter B

  • Jupiter
  • ***
  • Posts: 680
Re: What's with this ISIS buisness?
« Reply #15 on: November 25, 2014, 12:02:18 AM »
The idea of people from one country going to another to serve in their military is, as others have pointed out, not new. The reasons people have done have also varied, from simply seeking money or fame, to ideology to religion.

The reasons states are willing to employ mercenaries also vary, but usually relate to a lack of willing/available native recruits given current military needs.

For example, the Byzantine Empire experienced a dramatic shortage of soldiers in the late 11th century following defeats in the Battles of Manzikert and Dyrrhachium in 1071 and 1081, and a civil war in the intervening years. The new Byzantine Emperor sent out a call to various West European monarchs and the Pope, seeking mercenaries to allow him to fight back against the Turks. And he got quite a few. But his call also led (by a somewhat complex process) to Pope Urban to call for an armed pilgrimage to Jerusalem, which we know better today as the First Crusade.

Others have mentioned the Spanish Civil War, and the International Brigades were a fairly extensive source of manpower for the Republican government, at least early in the war, although the proportion fell as more native Spanish were conscripted. In this case ideology was a strong factor, but it also had its drawbacks - the Communists hated both the anarchists and the anti-Stalinist Marxists (the POUM which Orwell joined) and red-on-red violence was a serious issue.

I've read only a little about the white mercenaries who fought in various conflicts in Africa (mostly) in the 1960s, but I get the impression a lot of the attraction was thrill-seeking by ex-professional soldiers. I also wonder if they had a bit of a sense of superiority over the poorly trained local soldiers they fought with and against, and perhaps felt their job wasn't particularly dangerous.

Australia also has a share of people who've left the country to fight in Syria. The first of these date to some time before ISIS became a news item. However in the last few months pretty much every report of people leaving Australia involves them going to join ISIS.

One thing which has struck me about the stories is that quite a few of the people involved seem to have had ties to organised crime and drug rings. I don't have the details but I get the impression that recruiters have been seeking out Muslim youths who've gone badly off the rails and offered them a path to redemption. In my opinion things aren't helped by a segment of the general community, egged on by irresponsible sections of the media and some ignorant comments from politicians, who have a negative attitude to all things Islamic, thus giving a free rein to new ISIS recruits to say they feel disaffected and not wanted in or part of mainstream Australia.

The other thing which probably hasn't helped is having police raids involving hundreds of officers which results in the arrest of a couple of people and virtually no charges being laid. It's easy to see that people wanting to inflame tensions can present these 'overkill' raids as the Muslim community being targeted by police and politicians.

Offline LionKing

  • Mars
  • ***
  • Posts: 289
Re: What's with this ISIS buisness?
« Reply #16 on: November 25, 2014, 03:25:06 AM »
I know people join waars in other countries. the issue that we thought that these were christians converted to islam, as people would join normally a cause they "belong" to. knowing now that these are of islamic origins made sense.

We have heard about a pop musician who is a mother joining ISIS
http://rt.com/uk/184212-british-mother-isis-christians/

She married a Muslim, but is she herself? just thought that leading a band life is too far from being ISIS member
"Concern should drive us into action and not into a depression. No man is free who cannot control himself"― Pythagoras

Offline gwiz

  • Mars
  • ***
  • Posts: 287
Re: What's with this ISIS buisness?
« Reply #17 on: November 25, 2014, 06:34:47 AM »
Weren't there USA pilots who fought with the RAF in the eary days of WW2, before US became allies?
There were indeed:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eagle_Squadrons
Multiple exclamation marks are a sure sign of a diseased mind - Terry Pratchett
...the ascent module ... took off like a rocket - Moon Man

Offline Tedward

  • Mars
  • ***
  • Posts: 337
Re: What's with this ISIS buisness?
« Reply #18 on: November 25, 2014, 07:53:07 AM »
Weren't there USA pilots who fought with the RAF in the eary days of WW2, before US became allies?
There were indeed:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eagle_Squadrons

And they served in Bomber Command. Many joining the RCAF I believe to get in early as opposed to getting across to join (RCAF=Royal Canadian Airforce).

Offline raven

  • Saturn
  • ****
  • Posts: 1228
Re: What's with this ISIS buisness?
« Reply #19 on: November 25, 2014, 09:08:54 AM »
Also, not a few Canadians fought in Vietnam and others have served in Iraq, so it goes both ways.
As for this ISIS business, one common trait of young people everywhere is a search for identity.
As the children of Immigrants who came looking for jobs, they probably don't feel especially strong ties to the countries their parents settled in (for all it's good points, Europe can still be a very racist place) yet they aren't really sure of their ties to their parent's home culture either, so, like young people everywhere, they are prone to drastic measures.

Offline gillianren

  • Saturn
  • ****
  • Posts: 1473
    • My Letterboxd journal
Re: What's with this ISIS buisness?
« Reply #20 on: November 25, 2014, 01:03:40 PM »
People also convert to other religions all the time, which is how Christianity and Islam exist.
"This sounds like a job for Bipolar Bear . . . but I just can't seem to get out of bed!"

"Conspiracy theories are an irresistible labour-saving device in the face of complexity."  --Henry Louis Gates

Offline Echnaton

  • Saturn
  • ****
  • Posts: 1431
Re: What's with this ISIS buisness?
« Reply #21 on: November 25, 2014, 03:02:20 PM »
the issue that we thought that these were christians converted to islam

The idea of a Christian may be very different here than in your country.  Many people here have a Christian family heritage but do not think of themselves as Christian.  Or if they do it is only as a family vestige rather than a personal commitment.  Many of these"Christians" would not see becoming Islamic as converting from one religion to another so much as assuming a religious identity for the first time.
The sun shone, having no alternative, on the nothing new. —Samuel Beckett

Offline LionKing

  • Mars
  • ***
  • Posts: 289
Re: What's with this ISIS buisness?
« Reply #22 on: November 26, 2014, 06:18:58 AM »
the issue that we thought that these were christians converted to islam

The idea of a Christian may be very different here than in your country.  Many people here have a Christian family heritage but do not think of themselves as Christian.  Or if they do it is only as a family vestige rather than a personal commitment.  Many of these"Christians" would not see becoming Islamic as converting from one religion to another so much as assuming a religious identity for the first time.


Ah I see..thnx
"Concern should drive us into action and not into a depression. No man is free who cannot control himself"― Pythagoras

Offline LionKing

  • Mars
  • ***
  • Posts: 289
Re: What's with this ISIS buisness?
« Reply #23 on: December 02, 2014, 02:24:26 PM »
good news!we captured Baghdadi's son and wife here..i hope we can get back our soldiers..each day they threaten to slaughter them..their poor families deserve a joyful christmass after these long months of immense stress
"Concern should drive us into action and not into a depression. No man is free who cannot control himself"― Pythagoras

Offline LionKing

  • Mars
  • ***
  • Posts: 289
Re: What's with this ISIS buisness?
« Reply #24 on: February 24, 2015, 05:18:43 AM »
Isis Burns Down Mosul Library, Destroys 8,000 Rare Books and Manuscripts
http://www.ibtimes.co.in/isis-burns-down-mosul-library-destroys-8000-rare-books-manuscripts-624375

I weep for Iraq..Iraq of the ancient civilizations, Iraq of the Babylonians, Sassanids and Samanids.. all this to be burnt because some dogs think that their backwardness should prevail and everything else should be burnt..
is Israel taking part in collaborating with the rebels? http://www.ibtimes.co.in/un-report-israel-regular-contact-syrian-rebels-including-isis-616404

I wouldn't be surprized..

whoever it is who is supporting these rats, they should be  stopped before they wipe out history and culture.. what if they took over Ba'albeck at some point and decided to bring the tower down? they already burnt a historical church in Iraq.. they have developed weapons, they are backwards but capable..they are frightening..
"Concern should drive us into action and not into a depression. No man is free who cannot control himself"― Pythagoras

Offline ka9q

  • Neptune
  • ****
  • Posts: 2833
Re: What's with this ISIS buisness?
« Reply #25 on: February 24, 2015, 06:17:52 AM »
They're doing it specifically to get us upset and drive more people to their side.

I'm old enough to remember the Vietnam War very well, though fortunately just young enough to avoid being drafted into it. At the time, the hawks presented it as an existential threat to US survival. The Viet Cong were ruthless terrorist savages, we had to stop them there so we wouldn't have to fight them here, anybody who opposed the war was an America-hating pinko hippie, yada yada yada. A succession of US presidents felt compelled to throw even more good money (and lives) after bad. You know, the way a gambler who's lost a bundle is driven to keep playing to win it all back.

Until we gave up and went home, that is. And it all just ended, just like that. Life went on. No Communist invasions of the "homeland". Not even a single domino fell. And less than 20 years later, the USSR collapsed under its own weight.


Offline LionKing

  • Mars
  • ***
  • Posts: 289
Re: What's with this ISIS buisness?
« Reply #26 on: February 24, 2015, 06:28:32 AM »
They're doing it specifically to get us upset and drive more people to their side.

who? can you further explain please? I feel I didn't get what you mean

ISIS is indeed a big threat and they caused a minority called the Yezidis to leave after massive killings..not speakign of the beheadings and their spread in Iraq and Syria
"Concern should drive us into action and not into a depression. No man is free who cannot control himself"― Pythagoras

Offline ka9q

  • Neptune
  • ****
  • Posts: 2833
Re: What's with this ISIS buisness?
« Reply #27 on: February 24, 2015, 06:49:26 AM »
They're doing it specifically to get us upset and drive more people to their side.

who? can you further explain please? I feel I didn't get what you mean
Sorry, I thought it was fairly clear. Just as with their beheadings of westerners, they're trying to provoke a further violent reaction from us. We'll respond by stepping up our bombings and our drone strikes, killing more civilians and destroying more infrastructure in the process. We'll shrug, say "we don't target civilians" and cluck our tongues and express our regrets at the "unfortunate" collateral damage -- and then go right back to more bombing. And still more people will flock to their cause, including some from Western countries. We're playing right into their hands.

Haven't you noticed that virtually every one of them talks about avenging the killings of innocent Muslim civilians as their main reason for going? You don't have to like or agree with what they're doing to understand why they're doing it. That's a basic mistake we make again and again -- failing to understand our enemy. We'd rather paint them as something we'd feel better about killing.
Quote
ISIS is indeed a big threat and they caused a minority called the Yezidis to leave after massive killings..not speakign of the beheadings and their spread in Iraq and Syria
And not so long ago, we were at war with Eastasia, er, um, al Qaeda. Now we're at war with Eurasia, I mean ISIS, and have always been at war with Eurasia, I mean ISIS.

Unfortunately, the world is full of despots and militants who kill innocent people by the millions. But most never get much attention from the US government beyond some speeches from the State Department. The Pol Pot regime of the mid 1970s, for example. The massacres in Darfur, Sudan. Or the Rwandan genocide. Unless, that is, they happen to be fighting in countries that sit on a sea of oil. Then it becomes imperative that we go in and support democracy out of the goodness of our hearts.

Offline ka9q

  • Neptune
  • ****
  • Posts: 2833
Re: What's with this ISIS buisness?
« Reply #28 on: February 24, 2015, 06:57:56 AM »
And now for the obligatory Hermann Goering quote:
Quote
Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger.
Goering may have been a murderous, cynical psychopath, but I think he had a better understanding of this aspect of human nature than almost anyone. He certainly knew how to apply it.
 
« Last Edit: February 24, 2015, 07:01:57 AM by ka9q »

Offline LionKing

  • Mars
  • ***
  • Posts: 289
Re: What's with this ISIS buisness?
« Reply #29 on: February 24, 2015, 07:05:40 AM »
They're doing it specifically to get us upset and drive more people to their side.

who? can you further explain please? I feel I didn't get what you mean
Sorry, I thought it was fairly clear. Just as with their beheadings of westerners, they're trying to provoke a further violent reaction from us. We'll respond by stepping up our bombings and our drone strikes, killing more civilians and destroying more infrastructure in the process. We'll shrug, say "we don't target civilians" and cluck our tongues and express our regrets at the "unfortunate" collateral damage -- and then go right back to more bombing. And still more people will flock to their cause, including some from Western countries. We're playing right into their hands.

Haven't you noticed that virtually every one of them talks about avenging the killings of innocent Muslim civilians as their main reason for going? You don't have to like or agree with what they're doing to understand why they're doing it. That's a basic mistake we make again and again -- failing to understand our enemy. We'd rather paint them as something we'd feel better about killing.
Quote
ISIS is indeed a big threat and they caused a minority called the Yezidis to leave after massive killings..not speakign of the beheadings and their spread in Iraq and Syria
And not so long ago, we were at war with Eastasia, er, um, al Qaeda. Now we're at war with Eurasia, I mean ISIS, and have always been at war with Eurasia, I mean ISIS.

Unfortunately, the world is full of despots and militants who kill innocent people by the millions. But most never get much attention from the US government beyond some speeches from the State Department. The Pol Pot regime of the mid 1970s, for example. The massacres in Darfur, Sudan. Or the Rwandan genocide. Unless, that is, they happen to be fighting in countries that sit on a sea of oil. Then it becomes imperative that we go in and support democracy out of the goodness of our hearts.

Thanks for the explanation.  The problem is that doing nothing towards them doesn't help but them. At least there should be some financing and training for the countries they are in , for the governments of these countries to be able to attack them properly.
"Concern should drive us into action and not into a depression. No man is free who cannot control himself"― Pythagoras