Author Topic: What's with this ISIS buisness?  (Read 7734 times)

Offline LionKing

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What's with this ISIS buisness?
« on: November 23, 2014, 12:43:01 PM »
Dear members,
I want to ask about the phenomenon of westerners coming to join ISIS (Islamic State of Iraq and Syria ) forces? I didn't use to hear about people from the west, in hundreds, to be fond of such terrorist organizations to the extent of putting their lives in danger to support them. can you tell me more about this phenomenon and how do you read it?
thanks

edit: http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/sweden-says-up-to-150-people-left-country-to-join-isis-1.2065155
« Last Edit: November 23, 2014, 12:44:36 PM by LionKing »
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Offline gillianren

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Re: What's with this ISIS buisness?
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2014, 01:34:56 PM »
I think the key is simply that you didn't used to hear about it.  I have; I've studied history.
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Offline LionKing

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Re: What's with this ISIS buisness?
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2014, 01:55:05 PM »
I think the key is simply that you didn't used to hear about it.  I have; I've studied history.

can u expand on that? i want cases eere westerners joined islamic jihadists in the extent that is being reported  and what were the causes
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Offline Allan F

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Re: What's with this ISIS buisness?
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2014, 05:25:06 PM »
Several from my country (Denmark) has traveled to Syria and joined the IS-forces. They have danish citizenship and danish passports, but they are really immigrants from the MiddleEast or 1. or 2. generation descendants of immigrants. They have no real connection to the danish society, most live on welfare, and this is an "exciting" way for them to confirm their identity as muslims and not-danish. There has been reports in danish newsmedia that some of these people have been killed - some from their "own" side when they found out war is a scary and dangerous business, and they wanted to leave.
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Offline gillianren

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Re: What's with this ISIS buisness?
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2014, 10:12:02 PM »
can u expand on that? i want cases eere westerners joined islamic jihadists in the extent that is being reported  and what were the causes

There have always been people willing to travel to foreign lands and join causes they either don't know much about or support despite not really having a connection to it.  And if Allan is right, there have certainly always been those willing to do something to feel a connection to their own past.  It goes beyond one ideological issue.  Look at the Spanish Civil War, for example, or Americans who joined Canadian or British armies to fight in World War I.
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Offline Allan F

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Re: What's with this ISIS buisness?
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2014, 12:23:20 AM »
Here's an article in a danish newspaper referring information that 100 persons with danish passport has joined the IS: http://ekstrabladet.dk/nyheder/lederen/article5217230.ece
Well, it is like this: The truth doesn't need insults. Insults are the refuge of a darkened mind, a mind that refuses to open and see. Foul language can't outcompete knowledge. And knowledge is the result of education. Education is the result of the wish to know more, not less.

Offline smartcooky

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Re: What's with this ISIS buisness?
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2014, 02:46:46 AM »
We are currently bringing in Laws to stop them going. I don't agree with those Law changes. I don't want any people with a mindset to want to join ISIL to be living in my country.

If we have the surveillance ability to know enough about these people to stop them going, then I would rather let them go, and then revoke their passports and citizenship after they leave so that they cannot come back.
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Offline Tedward

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Re: What's with this ISIS buisness?
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2014, 02:49:09 AM »
can u expand on that? i want cases eere westerners joined islamic jihadists in the extent that is being reported  and what were the causes

There have always been people willing to travel to foreign lands and join causes they either don't know much about or support despite not really having a connection to it.  And if Allan is right, there have certainly always been those willing to do something to feel a connection to their own past.  It goes beyond one ideological issue.  Look at the Spanish Civil War, for example, or Americans who joined Canadian or British armies to fight in World War I.

And WWII had a few Americans as well before they officially joined. The Spanish Civil war as gillianren points out had few of UK people go over to fight, go back further and Swiss pikemen were prime troops for hire for many Kings and Queens in Europe. Crécy had mercenaries, even battles in the UK, they used foreign fighters to further their cause. Wars of the Roses for example.

What they are going for is the story I think, not the going.

Offline LionKing

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Re: What's with this ISIS buisness?
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2014, 03:22:10 AM »
Thanks guys
I am aware of people joining different lands for figths but I was just speakign about the Islami jihadist such as Al Qaeda and now ISIS as I haven't seen back then (Iraq after invasion) in the media this extensive spotlight on westerners joining forces with Qaeda that much.
now with the clarification about them being immigrants I understand more..

I don't want any of them either in my country..unfortunately they are (ISI) very rich adn they are takign big areas in Iraq and Syria and controlling resources. All states should gather and bombard them as they are a threat to humanity.
best
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Offline gillianren

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Re: What's with this ISIS buisness?
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2014, 01:05:50 PM »
I just don't see anything terribly different about this as distinct from thousands of years of history of people joining conflicts far from home.
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Offline Dr.Acula

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Re: What's with this ISIS buisness?
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2014, 01:37:25 PM »
Dear members,
I want to ask about the phenomenon of westerners coming to join ISIS (Islamic State of Iraq and Syria ) forces? I didn't use to hear about people from the west, in hundreds, to be fond of such terrorist organizations to the extent of putting their lives in danger to support them. can you tell me more about this phenomenon and how do you read it?
thanks

edit: http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/sweden-says-up-to-150-people-left-country-to-join-isis-1.2065155

Here in Germany, we have some serious problems with salafists and German convertites. Especially in Northrhine-Westphalia there is a growing group. We have some well known hateful preachers (Pierre Vogel, Sven Lau). The public gets more and more worried, there are some cases, that German convertites went to the combat zone (i.e. Kobane) and fought there (and died in some cases). And there are messenges about another group of right-winged persons (rocker, hooligans etc.) going to Syria to fight against ISIS. And now we have some gib demonstrations against ISIS, but organized by right-winged organizations.
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Offline Echnaton

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Re: What's with this ISIS buisness?
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2014, 03:28:21 PM »
The decedents of immigrants often want to return to an ancestral homeland to find out something about themselves.  Combine that with the attractiveness to young adults of the romance of a cause and the the righteousness of religion, and a jihad is the perfect storm of transformation for some people.   

We are currently bringing in Laws to stop them going. I don't agree with those Law changes. I don't want any people with a mindset to want to join ISIL to be living in my country.

If we have the surveillance ability to know enough about these people to stop them going, then I would rather let them go, and then revoke their passports and citizenship after they leave so that they cannot come back.

Pretty much my thinking too.  If you keep them in, then they just ferment trouble at home.  Good riddance to them.  Besides, how do you stop citizens from leaving the country based on ideological beliefs with out starting to look a lot like Soviet block totalitarians. 
« Last Edit: November 24, 2014, 03:30:53 PM by Echnaton »
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Offline johnbutcher

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Re: What's with this ISIS buisness?
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2014, 04:34:40 PM »
can u expand on that? i want cases eere westerners joined islamic jihadists in the extent that is being reported  and what were the causes

There have always been people willing to travel to foreign lands and join causes they either don't know much about or support despite not really having a connection to it.  And if Allan is right, there have certainly always been those willing to do something to feel a connection to their own past.  It goes beyond one ideological issue.  Look at the Spanish Civil War, for example, or Americans who joined Canadian or British armies to fight in World War I.

Weren't there USA pilots who fought with the RAF in the eary days of WW2, before US became allies?
And what about the French Foreign Legion?

Offline johnbutcher

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Re: What's with this ISIS buisness?
« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2014, 04:40:34 PM »
can u expand on that? i want cases eere westerners joined islamic jihadists in the extent that is being reported  and what were the causes

There have always been people willing to travel to foreign lands and join causes they either don't know much about or support despite not really having a connection to it.  And if Allan is right, there have certainly always been those willing to do something to feel a connection to their own past.  It goes beyond one ideological issue.  Look at the Spanish Civil War, for example, or Americans who joined Canadian or British armies to fight in World War I.

And WWII had a few Americans as well before they officially joined. The Spanish Civil war as gillianren points out had few of UK people go over to fight, go back further and Swiss pikemen were prime troops for hire for many Kings and Queens in Europe. Crécy had mercenaries, even battles in the UK, they used foreign fighters to further their cause. Wars of the Roses for example.

What they are going for is the story I think, not the going.

toseeked by Tedward and then he trumped me.

Offline darren r

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Re: What's with this ISIS buisness?
« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2014, 05:08:22 PM »
We are currently bringing in Laws to stop them going. I don't agree with those Law changes. I don't want any people with a mindset to want to join ISIL to be living in my country.

If we have the surveillance ability to know enough about these people to stop them going, then I would rather let them go, and then revoke their passports and citizenship after they leave so that they cannot come back.

Successive British governments have always been fairly consistent about discouraging British citizens from fighting in foreign wars, from the Spanish Civil War to today (pretty ironic when you consider that London was pretty much the epicentre for mercenary recruitment in the '60's and '70's).
I agree with you though. They should just let them go if they want to go. I feel desperately sad for their families, however, as most of these people have zero military training or experience and are simply being used as cannon fodder - there's a family in Cardiff whose three sons all went to Syria. Two of them are now dead.
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