Author Topic: New Claim About the A16 Photo Smear. This One Has Me Stumped.  (Read 26835 times)

Offline bknight

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Re: New Claim About the A16 Photo Smear. This One Has Me Stumped.
« Reply #60 on: August 24, 2016, 08:55:27 AM »

What sort of time reference? – It helps to be specific.
1. The time in my source which you've mentioned above?
2. The time in another video?
3. The ground elapsed time?
4. Some other time?

I fail to understand why you ask such a question because in order to find the exact video, all the links and answers I needed are right here in this thread. Some are in my first post, including certain times of interest, and the remaining ones have kindly been posted by other members.

Perhaps not, though, to we laid-back characters down here in the southwest Pacific with summer slowly arriving, but some people in other parts of the world crumple in the face of such things, y'know.  :)


You seem irritated by my posting and I apologize for that.  The questions come from holes in the timeline that I have seen nothing more or less.


Marked frames
AS16-114-18444 to 18470 GET 149:18:29 to 149:24:21, after the close-out of EVA-2
AS16-116-18563 to 18724 GET 165:55:34 to 170:47:16, loading the rover for EVA-3 through to close-out of EVA-3, and VIP site


From the ALSJ:
Quote
Journal Text: 149:14:13   3 minutes 7 seconds ( RealVideo Clip:  0.8 Mb or MPG Video Clip:  28 Mb ). Both clips by Ken Glover

Journal Text: 149:17:13   1 minutes 58 seconds ( RealVideo Clip:  0.5 Mb or MPG Video Clip:  18 Mb ). Both clips by Ken Glover

Journal Text: 149:19:06   2 minutes 27 seconds ( RealVideo Clip:  0.6 Mb or MPG Video Clip:  22 Mb ). Both clips by Ken Glover
None of these video clips contains images of John changing magazines.
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
Eugene Cernan

Offline Kiwi

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Re: New Claim About the A16 Photo Smear. This One Has Me Stumped.
« Reply #61 on: August 25, 2016, 06:22:06 AM »
None of these video clips contains images of John changing magazines.

From a quick glance at the ALSJ, that's what I'd expect.

I couldn't see any indication that he changed a magazine in those times and the only thing that's relevant to this thread is that he merely took photos AS16-11-18445 to 18470 between GET 149:18:39 and 149:25:36.

You're looking at the wrong GET to see him change a magazine.

I haven't yet found my notes or read the thread again or watched the video, but if you're wanting help, please open up and tell us precisely what these "holes" are that you see.  I can see gaps, but I don't at all have a problem with them. They've been explained in this thread. In fact I think one of those gaps might have a lovely little clue in it, but I haven't yet checked.

By the way, it would have been much more helpful if you had answered my last question with a single digit, 3. Or even politely added little more detail. That's why I took the time to give you those four options. Then we would have immediately known that the time reference you're interested in is GET, and none of 1, 2, and 4 apply. Alas, you didn't so we had to read the rest of your post to guess, yet again, which time reference you were interested in.

Back in the 1980s I knew how stupid and wrong assumptions can be and I haven't changed my mind.  So I prefer to not make assumptions and instead to be given clear, full and unambiguous answers to questions. Precision and speed very useful around here and also in life and business.

You made a wrong assumption back in post 41 and Willoughby showed that that was wrong. Like the rest of us who are interested, you could have checked your assumption from the same source but didn't. The link was supplied more than once.

*#*#*#*

For anyone who wants see what was happening during the GETs mentioned above, the files to click on at the Apollo 16 ALSJ are:
Geology Station 10 near the ALSEP Site
and
EVA-2 Closeout

GET 149:18:39 to 149:25:36

« Last Edit: August 25, 2016, 07:29:11 AM by Kiwi »
Don't criticize what you can't understand. — Bob Dylan, “The Times They Are A-Changin'” (1963)
Some people think they are thinking when they are really rearranging their prejudices and superstitions. — Edward R. Murrow (1908–65)

Offline bknight

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Re: New Claim About the A16 Photo Smear. This One Has Me Stumped.
« Reply #62 on: August 25, 2016, 07:15:26 AM »
I didn't answer the reference time as it was irrelevant, as any time reference would have been sufficient.

Quote
You're looking at the wrong GET to see him change a magazine.

Quote
AS16-114-18444 to 18470 GET 149:18:29 to 149:24:21, after the close-out of EVA-2

The change over needed to occur before 149:18:29
Now the first video I linked was
Quote
Journal Text: 149:14:13   3 minutes 7 seconds ( RealVideo Clip:  0.8 Mb or MPG Video Clip:  28 Mb ). Both clips by Ken Glover
  I always assumed those times were the beginning of the video, but that may be incorrect. So then tell me what time the magazine was changed, from your notes if you prefer.  I'm not trying to ask you to do a lot of extra work.
I did watch
Quote
Journal Text: 148:14:04   3 minutes 7 seconds ( RealVideo Clip: 0.8 Mb or MPG Video Clip:  27 Mb ). Both clips by Ken Glover.
 
No change occurred during that one either.
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
Eugene Cernan

Offline Kiwi

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Re: New Claim About the A16 Photo Smear. This One Has Me Stumped.
« Reply #63 on: August 25, 2016, 08:36:21 AM »
I didn't answer the reference time as it was irrelevant, as any time reference would have been sufficient.

I'm sorry to have to say this, but that is goobledegook.

Is there some way that we could possibly get on the same page which I've been trying to do all along?  I suspect that other readers will know that I have, but you don't seem to know or don't want to do it.

You are putting me to a lot of work!

And if you don't stop it then I might have no option but to stop it for some time because I am a long-term invalid and have limited physical and intellectual energy that I must apply to more essential tasks than fruitlessly trying to screw a very simple answer out of somebody who won't provide one.

Some of your answers are utterly weird to me. They don't make sense. They are contradictory. Like the quote above. "the reference time... was irrelevant, as any time reference would have been sufficient."

What sort of reference time or time reference would suffice? Choice 4 again if none of the others.

I would guess that the latter part of your sentence means that a GET (you say time reference) would be sufficient, but you seem to be implying that you don't want a GET and some other time instead, yet you posted GETs in your second quote.

If you answered the question that you didn't answer, I might actually know what you want and so will others and we can all stop facepalming, sighing and mopping our brows.

So puh-lease, type just two words and the one digit of the four that applies in the list I gave you. Such as "Your list: 3" if you do indeed want ground elapsed time.

Alternatively, if you want the time on the Spacecraft Films DVD that John Young starts struggling to swap film magazines, type 1. That time will, of course, have nothing to do with ground elapsed time -- it will be the time the particular piece of video appears on the DVD or in the appropriate file or menu item on the DVD. By studying the ALSJ I could probably relate that time to a GET if indeed that is what you want.

And if don't want either of 1 or 3, then tell us what you do want because we can't possibly know until you tell us.

Are really saying that it is ground elapsed times that you don't want? If so, silly me for guessing that you did when you didn't answer the question. I'm asking yet again, because a straight answer would be very useful.

Two requests to other readers:-

1. Do you know what bknight wants for his "any time reference"?  I believe he wants GETs because he immediately followed his statement with GETs in his second quote. But he seems to be confused about it or unwilling to say.

2. If earlier posters in this thread are still with us, in future posts could you please change the original GETs (DD:HH:MM:SS) to the modern ones (HHH:MM:SS)?

I'm glad the new ones exist because they are much easier to follow and any figures you then give will match with the ALSJ and AFJ.

It's easy enough: 06:05:18:39 is 149:18:39 (6 x 24 + 5) plus the same MM:SS.

Sure, many of us can do that for ourselves, but it's far easier to follow if it's done in the post. Or if you want to be really pedantic, like me, show both!

« Last Edit: August 25, 2016, 09:30:34 AM by Kiwi »
Don't criticize what you can't understand. — Bob Dylan, “The Times They Are A-Changin'” (1963)
Some people think they are thinking when they are really rearranging their prejudices and superstitions. — Edward R. Murrow (1908–65)

Offline bknight

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Re: New Claim About the A16 Photo Smear. This One Has Me Stumped.
« Reply #64 on: August 25, 2016, 08:54:03 AM »

You are putting me to a lot of work!

...

Some of your answers are utterly weird to me. They don't make sense. They are contradictory. Like the quote above. "the reference time... was irrelevant, as any time reference would have been sufficient."

If it is too much work then don't do anything.

Why is any time reference would be sufficient, a contradictory answer?
Quote

So puh-lease, type just two words and the one digit of the four that applies in the list I gave you. Such as "Your list: 3" if you do indeed want ground elapsed time.

If it makes more sense to you then option 1, if those times are the times in ALSJ (GET) as those are the only ones that I have access.
Quote

It's easy enough: 06:05:18:39 is 149:18:39 (6 x 24 + 5) plus the same MM:SS.
This is precisely why I indicated any time reference will work. I am able to make the correction.
Quote

Sure, many of us can do that, but its far easier to follow if it's done in the post.
Fair enough.
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
Eugene Cernan

Offline Kiwi

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Re: New Claim About the A16 Photo Smear. This One Has Me Stumped.
« Reply #65 on: August 25, 2016, 10:21:51 AM »
Why is any time reference would be sufficient, a contradictory answer?

Because you wrote that reference time was irrelevant in the same sentence. So the same thing was irrelevant but sufficient.

Quote
Quote
So puh-lease, type just two words and the one digit of the four that applies in the list I gave you. Such as "Your list: 3" if you do indeed want ground elapsed time.

If it makes more sense to you then option 1, if those times are the times in ALSJ (GET) as those are the only ones that I have access.

Oh, my! Again you have contradicted yourself.  Re-read the list of four options and re-read what I said above: Such as "Your list: 3" if you do indeed want ground elapsed time.

Get it? 3 if you want GETs.

If I understand you correctly this time, you don't want option 1, you want option 3 - GETs.

And if I'm correct (Yahoo! We are talking the same language now) your two terms "time reference" and "reference time" both mean the same thing: GET.

So please drop completely at ApolloHoax those two useless and time-wasting terms and stick to the one that most of us know, Ground Elapsed Time, because that is what you actually meant all along but didn't say so. They are your own terms, so keep them to yourself.

Thank God. I was very close to drawing LunarOrbit's attention to your continued and thoroughly frustrating insistence on not giving a straight answer to a straight question - like many of the worst hoax-believers. And now he doesn't have to waste his valuable time putting on his moderator's hat and waving his stick.

You have dealt with HBs. Don't you abhor it when they will not answer questions, specially after continued repeating of the questions? I do. And I abhor even more ABs (Apollo Believers) doing the same, because they should know better.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2016, 10:36:28 AM by Kiwi »
Don't criticize what you can't understand. — Bob Dylan, “The Times They Are A-Changin'” (1963)
Some people think they are thinking when they are really rearranging their prejudices and superstitions. — Edward R. Murrow (1908–65)

Offline bknight

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Re: New Claim About the A16 Photo Smear. This One Has Me Stumped.
« Reply #66 on: August 25, 2016, 10:29:48 AM »
Quote

If I understand correctly you this time, you don't want option 1, you want option 3 - GETs.

That would be sufficient.
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
Eugene Cernan

Offline Allan F

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Re: New Claim About the A16 Photo Smear. This One Has Me Stumped.
« Reply #67 on: August 26, 2016, 07:12:07 PM »
I just watched an Amy Shira Teitel video

Is she a member here? I wrote her, and encouraged her to join.
Well, it is like this: The truth doesn't need insults. Insults are the refuge of a darkened mind, a mind that refuses to open and see. Foul language can't outcompete knowledge. And knowledge is the result of education. Education is the result of the wish to know more, not less.

Offline BertieSlack

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Re: New Claim About the A16 Photo Smear. This One Has Me Stumped.
« Reply #68 on: August 27, 2016, 12:57:06 PM »
None of these video clips contains images of John changing magazines.

Apologies if this is a re-post but this is the clip containing John's magazine change:

https://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a16/a16v.1482521.mpg

The clip starts at mission elapsed time 148:25:21
It's in the section of Apollo 16 ALSJ called the 'The Great Sneak':

Video Clip ( 2 min 32 sec 0.6 Mb RealVideo  or 22 Mb MPEG )
148:25:21 Young: Which one, Charlie?

148:25:25 Duke: Delta for me and Bravo for you. (Pause)

[John hands magazine Delta across the seats to Charlie.]
148:25:33 Duke: Thank you.
148:25:36 Young: (Looking for the other magazine) Bravo.

148:25:38 Duke: Right in the corner, there. (Pause) ... (Pause) (Garbled) (Pause) Okay! Magazine Delta is working, and I'm starting with frame count number, oh, about 1.

148:26:09 England: Okay, Delta 1. (Pause)

[Charlie got two useful frames as he advanced the film. AS16-115- 18471 is a lightstruck picture of the handcontroller. John is on the other side of the Rover changing his film magazine. In 18472, we see John putting a film magazine in his camera. Note the other film magazines in the cloth-enclosed storage area under John's seat. The magazines are quite large because they each hold 170 frames of 70mm film. Under John's camera, we can see his sample bag dispenser and, also, the Red Apple he would pull to activate his purge valve in an emergency.]
[In the TV record, we see John putting magazine Bravo in his camera.]

[In Houston, Flight tells the Surgeon, "We're looking at an EVA capability, here, of 7 plus 35 (7 hours 35 minutes) on the PLSS. What do you think of that?" The Surgeon responds, "Well, I think they're pretty tired. They're showing a lot of fatigue. I just wonder if it's advisable to push 'em that long." Flight responds, "Well, okay, it's not a matter of adding anything here; it's just giving them a little more time to finish up what we've got scheduled. I'm not going to add other tasks. I just don't want them to think they've got to rush through what we've got left." The Surgeon's response is lost under Charlie, but Flight tells him to think about it during the drive to Station 10. The EVA will actually end at 7 hours 24 minutes.]

 [John turns to his left so he can advance the film and get some pictures of Stone Mountain in the process. As he turns, the sample-bag dispenser falls off his camera]
148:26:18 Duke: Dropped your bags again, John.
148:26:20 Young: Yeah. (The) tape came off, Charlie.

148:26:22 Duke: Aw, that thing did come off, didn't it?

148:26:25 Young: Yeah.

148:26:28 Duke: Okay. Let me come around and help you put it on. (Pause)