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Off Topic => Other Conspiracy Theories => Topic started by: Cat Not Included on February 01, 2016, 03:26:26 PM

Title: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Cat Not Included on February 01, 2016, 03:26:26 PM
Since this is completely off topic for the Apollo Hoax subforum, I thought I'd create a thread here for it. There have been many questions put to Tradosaurus regarding a flat earth. I'm just going to bring over mine for the moment, but anyone else is welcome to bring more.

So tradasaurus, care to go start a topic in "Other Conspiracies" covering:
A) Why in the world everyone who knew the Earth was flat would want to keep it secret.

B) A modern to-scale map of the flat-Earth world, accurately showing the relative sizes of all of the continents and the oceans.

C) What exactly satellites and the ISS are doing in a flat Earth model.

A) Simple:  control over you and your money.

To give that as your reason, you would need to show HOW keeping a flat Earth a secret grants any special control over me or my money, which (if you could come up with a reason) would obviously need to be a very different reason for each of the many different industries, companies and private individuals that would need to keep this secret. You would also need to show how that same logic would apply for the past several thousand years.

Knowledge about the shape of the Earth began well over a thousand years ago. At that time, there were no planes, satellites of spacecraft.

Numerous new technology developments would have led to the discovery of the correct shape of the Earth. Balloonists would have noticed. Aircraft pilots would have noticed. Even exploration ships would have noticed on reaching the "edge" of the Earth. Each of these people, separately and in numerous countries over a very long period of time would have had to be persuaded not to share their discovery. Why? How? By who?

Quote
B) Have you seen some of the supposed photos of the earth taken from space as given to us by NASA?  There aren't many at all which is strange given that there are supposedly 20,000 satellites in earth orbit. 
The continents depicted are not scales correctly (oopsy).  And here I thought water covered 75% of the earths surface.
http://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/images/618486main_earth_full.jpg
http://eoimages.gsfc.nasa.gov/images/imagerecords/57000/57723/globe_east_540.jpg
I have seen MANY of the photos taken from space by NASA, and by a number of other sources. I have no idea why you say "there aren't many". Check out Google Maps and turn on Satellite view, which uses enough satellite imagery to cover pretty much the entire planet.

None of which has anything to with my question - I would like to see a modern, to scale, flat Earth map. That seems an entirely reasonable request.

Quote
C) Also as a mental exercise please google "Satellite" and see if you find actual pictures of a satellite.  With 20,000+ satellites in orbit you would think we could get more than composite drawings.
Well, you can google "satellites being assembled" to find many, many photos of satellites on Earth.
You can google "satellites as seen from Earth" to find many photos of satellites taken from Earth. By and large, however, they look like streaks or points of light (depending on the exposure of the photo) moving across the sky. Which is exactly what small, fast-moving objects hundreds of kilometers away SHOULD look like.

Or, you can skip looking for images online and look up when you can actually go outside and see, with your own eyes, objects passing overhead. The ISS is the (for many places) the easiest to see. I have seen it. With my own eyes. In your world, what am I actually seeing going overhead at incredible speeds?
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Paul on February 01, 2016, 04:21:01 PM
None of which has anything to with my question - I would like to see a modern, to scale, flat Earth map. That seems an entirely reasonable request.

What I'd like to see is Flat Earth planetarium software so we could examine the planet/star projections in detail.  I did some searches a few weeks back but no such software appears to exist.  I did find a video on Eric D's channel which tried to explain away the Northern/Southern hemisphere star trail issue, but one of the Flat Earthers in the film actually used 'Stellarium' to try to back up their arguments.  Stellarium (http://www.stellarium.org/ (http://www.stellarium.org/)) is presumably (lol) modelled used 'globe Earth' physics (the software is open source if anyone wants to verify!).

Surely there is a Flat Earth believing programmer out there who could model the Flat Earth physics, it would make it a lot easier for them to explain some of their arguments :)
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Zakalwe on February 01, 2016, 04:28:45 PM
FWIW, this will be my only post in this thread as I cannot be bothered wasting my time and energy on meaningless conversation like this. What amazes me about intellectual cowards like Flat Earthers is that they are banging on about stuff that is so easily shown to be incorrect. Meanwhile, the Universe is full of strangeness and wonders and these fools are blathering on about concepts that were covered hundreds, if not thousands of years ago.

We know that reality is sufficiently weird* without having to tediously attempt to explain simple concepts to people that want to adopt a contrarian position. If you want weirdness, then go and look into the world of quantum mechanics, look down a microscope or point a telescope at the heavens.  Watching people like tradosaurus trashing around is like watching a child arguing in the carpark that his blue entrance ticket to the art gallery is green. Meanwhile, everyone else is inside, filled with wonder at the contents. Two hours later, tradosaurus is still in the carpark shouting at random strangers that his blue ticket is green.  Wandering into a forum such as this would be akin to the child wandering into an opticians and demanding that they agree with his silly claims.

So, in my opinion it is pointless. Normally I consider it worth debating with Moon hoax loonies as there may be people in the audience that are unaware of the evidence supporting the program. My aim is rarely to convince the hoax believer as, in the main, they are wilfully ignorant. In this case I consider it pointless as this forum is pretty much dedicated to discussing the Apollo program. It is unlikely to attract anyone wanting to talk about Flat Earth and even if it was I wouldn't debate it, as Flat Earth belief is about as niche as wacko beliefs go.


*My own suspicion is that the universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we *can* suppose. JBS Haldane
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Cat Not Included on February 01, 2016, 05:06:07 PM
FWIW, this will be my only post in this thread as I cannot be bothered wasting my time and energy on meaningless conversation like this. What amazes me about intellectual cowards like Flat Earthers is that they are banging on about stuff that is so easily shown to be incorrect. Meanwhile, the Universe is full of strangeness and wonders and these fools are blathering on about concepts that were covered hundreds, if not thousands of years ago.
This is, most likely, far and away the more sensible strategy.

I have an extremely difficult time believing that any claimed "flat-earther" is not, in fact, just deliberately trolling, as it seems absurd I can't really believe anyone would take it seriously.

I suppose my big mistake lies in giving a troll too much credit. To me, if I wanted to generate discussion on a ridiculous topic, I would want to make my position as believable as possible. I would want it to be persuasive and difficult to dismantle. I would want a logical narrative backed by as much realistic detail as I could manage. So I'm curious to find out what their invented narrative is. But I guess many of them are not like me, and simply haven't bothered to come up with one.

This may also explain why I'm so often annoyed with poorly explained/thought out plot elements in movies and TV shows. :p
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: frenat on February 01, 2016, 05:40:38 PM
Here's my request for anyone that might believe in a flat Earth.  Show me a map that does NOT have distortion and has accurate measurements for the flat Earth.  Flat Earth doesn't have one.  They like to point to the Azimuth equidistant projection that has the North pole in the center and Antarctica around the outside but the distances are NOT correct especially when South of the equator.  Unless they have an accurate map, there is no flat Earth.  On the other hand, we DO have accurate globes.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: DonQuixote on February 01, 2016, 09:11:45 PM
Howdy folks!

Been a good little while since my last post, but I recently ran afoul of a nest of these loons and they threw one at me that has sent me on a little trip down the rabbit hole. Ok, before I lay put the icing on this particular cake of insanity, let me give you some of the details. In their model, we have the following:


Now, as a gestalt, I can poke holes all through that, but there's this one thing I can't seem to lock down. I was hoping to debunk the crossing claim with either some time-lapse of a plane or an expedition crossing, and of all the possibilities I encountered, the real slam-dunk appeared to be the Steger/Etienne team of 1989-90 that went on a true cross-continent traverse, but when I started looking for articles, pics, and videos, all I could really find were 2nd-hand accounts and Stegel's interviews which were sadly devoid of what I was hoping to find.

Would anyone happen to know where I might track down any footage? According to my research thus far, ABC TV received periodic live feeds from the team(and won an Emmy for one of them), but I've yet to locate them on either YouTube, ABC's own archives, or the Library of Congress. I should just let this go, considering how deeply into solipsism they delve, but I would just really like to shut them down.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Gazpar on February 01, 2016, 09:18:56 PM
Howdy folks!

Been a good little while since my last post, but I recently ran afoul of a nest of these loons and they threw one at me that has sent me on a little trip down the rabbit hole. Ok, before I lay put the icing on this particular cake of insanity, let me give you some of the details. In their model, we have the following:

  • Their earth is flat.
  • It's a north-down polar projection.
  • Antarctica is an enclosing "wall" of ice along the map's outer edge.
  • All satellite photos are "obvious fakes."
  • No one has ever conclusively proven(to them) that they have crossed Antarctica.
  • And of course the government/Illuminati/Lizard Men are fiercely guarding access to the continent.

Now, as a gestalt, I can poke holes all through that, but there's this one thing I can't seem to lock down. I was hoping to debunk the crossing claim with either some time-lapse of a plane or an expedition crossing, and of all the possibilities I encountered, the real slam-dunk appeared to be the Steger/Etienne team of 1989-90 that went on a true cross-continent traverse, but when I started looking for articles, pics, and videos, all I could really find were 2nd-hand accounts and Stegel's interviews which were sadly devoid of what I was hoping to find.

Would anyone happen to know where I might track down any footage? According to my research thus far, ABC TV received periodic live feeds from the team(and won an Emmy for one of them), but I've yet to locate them on either YouTube, ABC's own archives, or the Library of Congress. I should just let this go, considering how deeply into solipsism they delve, but I would just really like to shut them down.
You should let it go in my opinion. The majority are just a bunch of trolls and the ones who really believe it already made up in their mind that every evidence of the spherical earth has been faked by "them" while they live in their fantasy land.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: DonQuixote on February 01, 2016, 11:21:52 PM
You should let it go in my opinion. The majority are just a bunch of trolls and the ones who really believe it already made up in their mind that every evidence of the spherical earth has been faked by "them" while they live in their fantasy land.

Thanks, I'm gonna try, but it won't ain't gonna be easy . . . I found some of the footage I was looking for.  :-*
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: gillianren on February 01, 2016, 11:40:37 PM
I'm a layperson, and I've seen with my own eyes satellites under construction.  JPL holds an open house once a year, and one of the places you can access is the observation decks over the clean rooms.  In addition, they sponsored my junior high school in the district's adopt-a-school program, and I went caroling there in seventh grade.  They judged our science fair.  If they were really the keepers of such a deep, dark secret, why would they risk letting so many people on the property so often?
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Peter B on February 02, 2016, 01:01:42 AM
Out of interest, does anyone know how to project the dark/light divide on this map (http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/sunearth.html) onto Tradasaurus's world map, please? I'm curious what shape it would produce...
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: raven on February 02, 2016, 02:01:01 AM
Well, it's a polar azimuthal equidistant projection, yes? So, cut the earth in half, one half light, one half dark, more or less.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Gazpar on February 02, 2016, 06:06:58 AM
Out of interest, does anyone know how to project the dark/light divide on this map (http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/sunearth.html) onto Tradasaurus's world map, please? I'm curious what shape it would produce...
I have seen few objections to this problem such as bendy light by the properties of the Aether or some kind of magic.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: bknight on February 02, 2016, 06:34:12 AM
Mathematically, given a 7,917 mile earth diameter and 25,000 miles in equatorial circumference, a curvature of 7.935 inches to the mile, varying inversely as the square of the distance, meaning in 3 miles there is a declination of nearly 6 feet, in 30 miles 600 feet, in 300 miles 60,000 feet and so on.  See image at http://flatearthwiki.com/images/f/fb/Bluemarb.jpg.
Basically you should not see a building across, say the chicago skyline from Grand mere state park, which is about 50 miles away. But you can see it.

Brian Mullins, profession civil engineer, has a good video talking about the mythical gravity and gravitational constant.


Earth is a globe and water adheres to a curves surface?  LOL. 

Basically we have been brainwashed by "scientists" to ignore our observations and BELIEVE in things we cannot see.
Riddle me this Batman, why when a ship approaches you the top of the ship is visible first, followed by more and more of the ship from the top down?  In a flat Earth the whole ship would be seen once it is inside the visual acuity of the observer.
Although it is not clear whether or not tradosaurus will use this thread I'll post my question again and add what is your answer tradosaurus?
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Miss Vocalcord on February 02, 2016, 06:37:02 AM
I have seen few objections to this problem such as bendy light by the properties of the Aether or some kind of magic.
Or an eclipse of the sun by the moon. This 'flat earth' is kind of the new Rick Rolling in my opinion; dumb and childish, not worth the attention.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: ka9q on February 02, 2016, 07:23:28 AM
So tradasaurus, care to go start a topic in "Other Conspiracies" covering:
A) Why in the world everyone who knew the Earth was flat would want to keep it secret.

ooo! ooo! ooo! I know! I know!

It's a conspiracy by the world's airlines. More specifically those in Australia, South Africa and other southern hemisphere countries. You see, by pretending that the world is a sphere, they can advertise much shorter timetables for their flights from, e.g., Pretoria to Perth and Sydney to Santiago and Buenos Aires, by claiming to take great circle routes to the south. If people knew how long it really took on the flat earth, they'd never buy tickets. And then the US airlines would get all the business. (Oh, wait, I forgot the US is the leader of the scam. Oh well, forget that part. I'll work on it later.) So they went back in time and paid the ancient Greeks to say they'd discovered the spherical shape of the earth. You see, Eratosthenes was actually an Australian agent. He even burnt down the Alexandria library to hide the evidence so today's historians wouldn't find out. Proof is left as an exercise for the reader.

To keep their wicked scam going, the airlines drug every passenger to mess up their sense of time. The flight crews go through and reset everybody's watches and computer clocks so nobody will suspect. Naturally, Big Pharma is also in on the scheme for obvious reasons.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: bknight on February 02, 2016, 07:28:20 AM
So tradasaurus, care to go start a topic in "Other Conspiracies" covering:
A) Why in the world everyone who knew the Earth was flat would want to keep it secret.

ooo! ooo! ooo! I know! I know!

It's a conspiracy by the world's airlines. More specifically those in Australia, South Africa and other southern hemisphere countries. You see, by pretending that the world is a sphere, they can advertise much shorter timetables for their flights from, e.g., Pretoria to Perth and Sydney to Santiago and Buenos Aires, by claiming to take great circle routes to the south. (If people knew how long it really took on the flat earth, they'd never buy tickets. And then the US airlines would get all the business. (Oh, wait, I forgot the US is the leader of the scam. Oh well, forget that part. I'll work on it later.) So they went back in time and paid the ancient Greeks to say they'd discovered the spherical shape of the earth. You see, Eratosthenes was actually an Australian agent. He even burnt down the Alexandria library to hide the evidence so today's historians wouldn't find out. Proof is left as an exercise for the reader.

To keep their wicked scam going, the airlines drug every passenger to mess up their sense of time. The flight crews go through and reset everybody's watches and computer clocks so nobody will suspect. Naturally, Big Pharma is also in on the scheme for obvious reasons.
LOL, Nice explanation.  It hit almost all the points :)
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Peter B on February 02, 2016, 09:06:36 AM
So tradasaurus, care to go start a topic in "Other Conspiracies" covering:
A) Why in the world everyone who knew the Earth was flat would want to keep it secret.

ooo! ooo! ooo! I know! I know!

It's a conspiracy by the world's airlines. More specifically those in Australia, South Africa and other southern hemisphere countries. You see, by pretending that the world is a sphere, they can advertise much shorter timetables for their flights from, e.g., Pretoria to Perth and Sydney to Santiago and Buenos Aires, by claiming to take great circle routes to the south. If people knew how long it really took on the flat earth, they'd never buy tickets. And then the US airlines would get all the business. (Oh, wait, I forgot the US is the leader of the scam. Oh well, forget that part. I'll work on it later.) So they went back in time and paid the ancient Greeks to say they'd discovered the spherical shape of the earth. You see, Eratosthenes was actually an Australian agent. He even burnt down the Alexandria library to hide the evidence so today's historians wouldn't find out. Proof is left as an exercise for the reader.

To keep their wicked scam going, the airlines drug every passenger to mess up their sense of time. The flight crews go through and reset everybody's watches and computer clocks so nobody will suspect. Naturally, Big Pharma is also in on the scheme for obvious reasons.

I give this explanation 8/10, especially for guessing that Eratosthenes was an Aussie (probably owns the local takeaway but these days spends most of his time at the local Greek club sipping ouzo).

But there's one problem. You talk of the airlines being behind the conspiracy. But what about road manufacturers? According to the map supplied by Tradosaurus the distance from Sydney to Perth is about the same as the distance from Moscow to Vladivostok. Why then do journeys between Sydney and Perth take much less time than journeys between Moscow and Vladivostok?
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: gillianren on February 02, 2016, 12:24:46 PM
And here's another point.  His claims notwithstanding, so far as I know the Catholic Church has never claimed a flat Earth.  Geocentrism, yes.  Flat Earth, no.  So even denying Vatican II does him no good; he's claiming their support for something that was never doctrine in the nearly two thousand years of the existence of Christianity.  Come to that, even though the apology to Galileo was from John Paul II, the Church had been accepting of heliocentrism for some time before that.  I'd have to go back and look it up, but probably within a hundred years of Galileo's death.  By which point it had become clear that continuing to deny it made them look foolish, though not anywhere near so foolish as claiming a flat Earth would.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: DonQuixote on February 02, 2016, 03:58:58 PM
Say, with the advent of "balloon cams" and such, does anyone happen to know a formula for approximating observed curvature as a function of height? I'm a little rusty on my applied optics and having one handy would help dispel some of the misconceptions around the images in the balloon/rocket videos.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: sts60 on February 02, 2016, 04:04:02 PM
And here's another point.  His claims notwithstanding, so far as I know the Catholic Church has never claimed a flat Earth.  Geocentrism, yes.  Flat Earth, no.  So even denying Vatican II does him no good; he's claiming their support for something that was never doctrine in the nearly two thousand years of the existence of Christianity.  Come to that, even though the apology to Galileo was from John Paul II, the Church had been accepting of heliocentrism for some time before that.  I'd have to go back and look it up, but probably within a hundred years of Galileo's death.  By which point it had become clear that continuing to deny it made them look foolish, though not anywhere near so foolish as claiming a flat Earth would.

Exactly the point I made in his hoax thread.  A flat Earth was never a fundamental tenet of the Catholic Church, although there were the usual proportion of FE believers in the hierarchy in the relatively early going. Even if you buy his Vatican II claim, he's still wrong about the "real" Church.  That's just a basic error of fact; no subscription to any RCC theology is required.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Gazpar on February 02, 2016, 04:05:02 PM
Say, with the advent of "balloon cams" and such, does anyone happen to know a formula for approximating observed curvature as a function of height? I'm a little rusty on my applied optics and having one handy would help dispel some of the misconceptions around the images in the balloon/rocket videos.
In my opinion, first you need to know the horizontal field of view of the camera lens to figure out how much horizon are you seeing to know what kind of curvature to expect. There is also other variables such as atmospheric refraction, cloudy horizon, etc.
Here is an article that explains it very well: http://thulescientific.com/Lynch%20Curvature%202008.pdf
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: raven on February 02, 2016, 07:21:07 PM
Am I the only one who finds it amusing the guest of 'honour' has not actually shown up in this thread?
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: bknight on February 02, 2016, 07:34:09 PM
Am I the only one who finds it amusing the guest of 'honour' has not actually shown up in this thread?
Maybe he can't read/understand that it was created for the FE discussion?
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: raven on February 02, 2016, 08:04:30 PM
Am I the only one who finds it amusing the guest of 'honour' has not actually shown up in this thread?
Maybe he can't read/understand that it was created for the FE discussion?
Given what else he doesn't understand, I'll put that down as a solid 'maybe'.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: bknight on February 02, 2016, 08:13:17 PM
Am I the only one who finds it amusing the guest of 'honour' has not actually shown up in this thread?
Maybe he can't read/understand that it was created for the FE discussion?
Given what else he doesn't understand, I'll put that down as a solid 'maybe'.
Perhaps, I didn't use a definite adverb. :)
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Dalhousie on February 02, 2016, 09:29:29 PM
Say, with the advent of "balloon cams" and such, does anyone happen to know a formula for approximating observed curvature as a function of height? I'm a little rusty on my applied optics and having one handy would help dispel some of the misconceptions around the images in the balloon/rocket videos.

Ther is an online calculator here http://www.ringbell.co.uk/info/hdist.htm
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Peter B on February 02, 2016, 09:44:28 PM
Am I the only one who finds it amusing the guest of 'honour' has not actually shown up in this thread?

There's a certain amusement factor... :-)

Given the religious proclivities of the GOH, it also reminds me of the parable of the Great Banquet (Luke 14:15-24). That is, there's a great feast of knowledge on offer, but with the GOH not in attendance, we can instead share it with the thread's lurkers.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Dalhousie on February 02, 2016, 09:46:25 PM
Howdy folks!

Been a good little while since my last post, but I recently ran afoul of a nest of these loons and they threw one at me that has sent me on a little trip down the rabbit hole. Ok, before I lay put the icing on this particular cake of insanity, let me give you some of the details. In their model, we have the following:

  • Their earth is flat.
  • It's a north-down polar projection.
  • Antarctica is an enclosing "wall" of ice along the map's outer edge.
  • All satellite photos are "obvious fakes."
  • No one has ever conclusively proven(to them) that they have crossed Antarctica.
  • And of course the government/Illuminati/Lizard Men are fiercely guarding access to the continent.

Now, as a gestalt, I can poke holes all through that, but there's this one thing I can't seem to lock down. I was hoping to debunk the crossing claim with either some time-lapse of a plane or an expedition crossing, and of all the possibilities I encountered, the real slam-dunk appeared to be the Steger/Etienne team of 1989-90 that went on a true cross-continent traverse, but when I started looking for articles, pics, and videos, all I could really find were 2nd-hand accounts and Stegel's interviews which were sadly devoid of what I was hoping to find.

Would anyone happen to know where I might track down any footage? According to my research thus far, ABC TV received periodic live feeds from the team(and won an Emmy for one of them), but I've yet to locate them on either YouTube, ABC's own archives, or the Library of Congress. I should just let this go, considering how deeply into solipsism they delve, but I would just really like to shut them down.

Don't know about footage, but there have been a number of first hand accounts of crossing Antarctica.  On my shelf I have Hilary and Fuchs, Stephenson (also on the Hillary-Fuchs expedition), Fiennes, and a book by the Transglobe expedition.  Bound to be others - there were other crossings in 1990, 2005, 2009, 2010, 2012,  and 2013.  Of course every trip to the South Pole or the interior stations has to cross The Barrier.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: bknight on February 02, 2016, 10:34:08 PM
And still the "engineer" tradosaurus hasn't visited this thread.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Dalhousie on February 02, 2016, 11:39:31 PM

Don't know about footage, but there have been a number of first hand accounts of crossing Antarctica.  On my shelf I have Hilary and Fuchs, Stephenson (also on the Hillary-Fuchs expedition), Fiennes, and a book by the Transglobe expedition.  Bound to be others - there were other crossings in 1990, 2005, 2009, 2010, 2012,  and 2013.  Of course every trip to the South Pole or the interior stations has to cross The Barrier.

Five part documentary of the CTAA starts here

Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Peter B on February 02, 2016, 11:48:55 PM
Howdy folks!

Been a good little while since my last post, but I recently ran afoul of a nest of these loons and they threw one at me that has sent me on a little trip down the rabbit hole. Ok, before I lay put the icing on this particular cake of insanity, let me give you some of the details. In their model, we have the following:

  • Their earth is flat.
  • It's a north-down polar projection.
  • Antarctica is an enclosing "wall" of ice along the map's outer edge.
  • All satellite photos are "obvious fakes."
  • No one has ever conclusively proven(to them) that they have crossed Antarctica.
  • And of course the government/Illuminati/Lizard Men are fiercely guarding access to the continent.

Now, as a gestalt, I can poke holes all through that, but there's this one thing I can't seem to lock down. I was hoping to debunk the crossing claim with either some time-lapse of a plane or an expedition crossing, and of all the possibilities I encountered, the real slam-dunk appeared to be the Steger/Etienne team of 1989-90 that went on a true cross-continent traverse, but when I started looking for articles, pics, and videos, all I could really find were 2nd-hand accounts and Stegel's interviews which were sadly devoid of what I was hoping to find.

Would anyone happen to know where I might track down any footage? According to my research thus far, ABC TV received periodic live feeds from the team(and won an Emmy for one of them), but I've yet to locate them on either YouTube, ABC's own archives, or the Library of Congress. I should just let this go, considering how deeply into solipsism they delve, but I would just really like to shut them down.

Don't know about footage, but there have been a number of first hand accounts of crossing Antarctica.  On my shelf I have Hilary and Fuchs, Stephenson (also on the Hillary-Fuchs expedition), Fiennes, and a book by the Transglobe expedition.  Bound to be others - there were other crossings in 1990, 2005, 2009, 2010, 2012,  and 2013.  Of course every trip to the South Pole or the interior stations has to cross The Barrier.

I was going to say, obviously those NASA stooges Shackleton, Scott and Amundsen were in on it. Mawson maybe not so, as his expeditions didn't travel so far away from the coast.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: DonQuixote on February 03, 2016, 12:40:13 AM
Aaawesome!!! Thank you much, guys! Great info and links.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: ka9q on February 03, 2016, 01:05:17 AM
Say, with the advent of "balloon cams" and such, does anyone happen to know a formula for approximating observed curvature as a function of height?
I help mentor a high school group that flies balloons, and we have plenty of high altitude video. For a sample, see It's in portrait mode, so you need to turn your screen 90 degrees. Let's see how quickly people can recognize the geography; I think it's one of the most distinctive areas in the United States.

I am always cautioning the students who see these videos to not think the camera is showing the curvature of the earth. It's simply an artifact of the very wide angle lenses on these small cameras. It would take some care to depict the true shape of the horizon.

In a video of Adam Savage of the Mythbusters flying at 70,000' in a U-2, he does claim he could visually discern the curvature of the earth.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Dalhousie on February 03, 2016, 01:39:51 AM

I was going to say, obviously those NASA stooges Shackleton, Scott and Amundsen were in on it. Mawson maybe not so, as his expeditions didn't travel so far away from the coast.

Proof that NASA has the secret of time travel.  Proof I tell you!!!!!
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: tradosaurus on February 03, 2016, 11:37:31 AM
Here is something for you globe-earthers to think about.

Can you personally prove the following, that is by measurable or observation experiments?
1) The earth is round
2) The earth is spinning
3) The earth orbits the sun.
4) The moon orbits the earth.
5) Water adheres to a curves surface rotating at 1,000 mph
6) Gravity exists
7) A person doesn't feel the change in rotational speed as he moves from the equator to the north pole where the rotation velocity goes from 1,000 mph to 0 mph.

Good luck.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: gillianren on February 03, 2016, 11:59:01 AM
If gravity doesn't exist, why do things fall when you drop them?
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Apollo 957 on February 03, 2016, 12:11:45 PM
Trad said "So the earth spinning at 1,000 mph (faster than the speed of sound) is not the same as spinning a basketball at 1,000 mph?  The speeds are the same. Also how does the fact if one moved north or south of the equator on the fictitious rotating globe his speed would decrease until it reached zero at the north  or south pole?  Why doesn't that person feel the change in speed?  Hint; he doesn't because we experience a flat and unmoving earth."

You do realise that the speed can only apply to a POINT on the Earth, don't you? 

You can work out the circumference of a circle from first principles, I assume? And you accept that circles drawn at the equator will have different circumferences than circles drawn partway up a globe?

If you slice a tennis ball at its widest point, and another a quarter of the way down, you'll get different-sized circles at the cut point, won't you?

Honestly, there's enough clues here. You've got to take the rotational speed in revolutions per minute, hour, day, whatever, and apply that to the distance travelled by a point on the surface. 
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Apollo 957 on February 03, 2016, 12:14:52 PM
Trad said "B) Have you seen some of the supposed photos of the earth taken from space as given to us by NASA?  There aren't many at all which is strange given that there are supposedly 20,000 satellites in earth orbit.  "

Why would you expect most or all of them to carry cameras? Companies pay for communications satellites, weather satellites etc to be launched and maintained, and nothing else. They're not up there to populate a global photo album to please Team Hoax.

However, here's a question - Do you think Sputnik was a hoax?
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Apollo 957 on February 03, 2016, 12:20:01 PM
Can you personally prove the following, that is by measurable or observation experiments?
1) The earth is round
2) The earth is spinning
3) The earth orbits the sun.
4) The moon orbits the earth.
5) Water adheres to a curves surface rotating at 1,000 mph
6) Gravity exists
7) A person doesn't feel the change in rotational speed as he moves from the equator to the north pole where the rotation velocity goes from 1,000 mph to 0 mph.

Do you insist that anyone responding has carried out the experiments themselves?

If so, my counter-proposal is that you first tell us what experiments you have done personally.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: frenat on February 03, 2016, 12:26:40 PM
Can you personally prove the following, that is by measurable or observation experiments?
1) The earth is round
2) The earth is spinning
3) The earth orbits the sun.
4) The moon orbits the earth.
5) Water adheres to a curves surface rotating at 1,000 mph
6) Gravity exists
7) A person doesn't feel the change in rotational speed as he moves from the equator to the north pole where the rotation velocity goes from 1,000 mph to 0 mph.

Do you insist that anyone responding has carried out the experiments themselves?

If so, my counter-proposal is that you first tell us what experiments you have done personally.
Well obviously he's looked out his window and said it looks flat.  Then he went online and checked out youtube and got taken in by the ignorance.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Gazpar on February 03, 2016, 12:35:30 PM
Here is something for you globe-earthers to think about.

Can you personally prove the following, that is by measurable or observation experiments?
1) The earth is round
2) The earth is spinning
3) The earth orbits the sun.
4) The moon orbits the earth.
5) Water adheres to a curves surface rotating at 1,000 mph
6) Gravity exists
7) A person doesn't feel the change in rotational speed as he moves from the equator to the north pole where the rotation velocity goes from 1,000 mph to 0 mph.

Good luck.
Quote
Have you personally prove there is an edge?
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: bknight on February 03, 2016, 12:43:36 PM
Here is something for you globe-earthers to think about.

Can you personally prove the following, that is by measurable or observation experiments?
1) The earth is round
I have posted this to you twice and you have ignored the evidence.  No science just observable evidence.
When a ship approaches the very first part of the ship that is visible is the top, then as the ship continues closing the distance more and more of the ship is visible from the top down.  This would not be the case in a flat Earth.  Now disprove that!
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Cat Not Included on February 03, 2016, 01:15:57 PM
So tradasaurus, care to go start a topic in "Other Conspiracies" covering:
A) Why in the world everyone who knew the Earth was flat would want to keep it secret.

ooo! ooo! ooo! I know! I know!

It's a conspiracy by the world's airlines. More specifically those in Australia, South Africa and other southern hemisphere countries. You see, by pretending that the world is a sphere, they can advertise much shorter timetables for their flights from, e.g., Pretoria to Perth and Sydney to Santiago and Buenos Aires, by claiming to take great circle routes to the south. If people knew how long it really took on the flat earth, they'd never buy tickets. And then the US airlines would get all the business. (Oh, wait, I forgot the US is the leader of the scam. Oh well, forget that part. I'll work on it later.) So they went back in time and paid the ancient Greeks to say they'd discovered the spherical shape of the earth. You see, Eratosthenes was actually an Australian agent. He even burnt down the Alexandria library to hide the evidence so today's historians wouldn't find out. Proof is left as an exercise for the reader.

To keep their wicked scam going, the airlines drug every passenger to mess up their sense of time. The flight crews go through and reset everybody's watches and computer clocks so nobody will suspect. Naturally, Big Pharma is also in on the scheme for obvious reasons.

The truly sad thing is that you have just proposed a more coherent narrative than I have ever seen a hoax-believer suggest.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Cat Not Included on February 03, 2016, 01:18:04 PM
If gravity doesn't exist, why do things fall when you drop them?
Dangit, you beat me to asking this question.  ;D
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Sus_pilot on February 03, 2016, 01:23:29 PM

If gravity doesn't exist, why do things fall when you drop them?
Dangit, you beat me to asking this question.  ;D

What I hate is when I pour myself a cup of coffee in the morning and it floats up to soak into the ceiling tile.  It's so irritating.  Don't you hate it when it happens to you? 
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: bknight on February 03, 2016, 01:24:52 PM
If gravity doesn't exist, why do things fall when you drop them?
Dangit, you beat me to asking this question.  ;D
For a degreed Engineer, he makes some really dumb observations.  Like Neil Baker, I'm ashamed to call him a fellow Engineer.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: bknight on February 03, 2016, 01:26:10 PM

If gravity doesn't exist, why do things fall when you drop them?
Dangit, you beat me to asking this question.  ;D

What I hate is when I pour myself a cup of coffee in the morning and it floats up to soak into the ceiling tile.  It's so irritating.  Don't you hate it when it happens to you?
Coffee spew moment! :)
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: raven on February 03, 2016, 03:10:27 PM

If gravity doesn't exist, why do things fall when you drop them?
Dangit, you beat me to asking this question.  ;D

What I hate is when I pour myself a cup of coffee in the morning and it floats up to soak into the ceiling tile.  It's so irritating.  Don't you hate it when it happens to you?
Coffee spew moment! :)
Did it float to your ceiling?
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: bknight on February 03, 2016, 03:18:01 PM
Dangit, you beat me to asking this question.  ;D
If gravity doesn't exist, why do things fall when you drop them?


What I hate is when I pour myself a cup of coffee in the morning and it floats up to soak into the ceiling tile.  It's so irritating.  Don't you hate it when it happens to you?
Coffee spew moment! :)
Did it float to your ceiling?
The ejection velocity was great enough to make it to the lap screen before any upward motion. ::)
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: raven on February 03, 2016, 03:24:02 PM
Ah. OK, joking aside, from what I understand, Flat Earther's think the Flat Earth is accelerating upward at the rate of gravitational acceleration. Which makes sense, at least compared to other Flat Earther  claims, except . . . correct me if I am wrong, but does not the force of gravity vary by region (slightly, but significantly in the statistical sense). If it was caused by the Earth accelerating upward, would it not be the exact same anywhere on the the planet?
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Trebor on February 03, 2016, 03:29:48 PM
Ah. OK, joking aside, from what I understand, Flat Earther's think the Flat Earth is accelerating upward at the rate of gravitational acceleration. Which makes sense, at least compared to other Flat Earther  claims, except . . . correct me if I am wrong, but does not the force of gravity vary by region (slightly, but significantly in the statistical sense). If it was caused by the Earth accelerating upward, would it not be the exact same anywhere on the the planet?
The measurable acceleration due to gravity does change, from about 9.78 m/s2 at the Equator to about 9.83 m/s2 at the poles. This is due to centrifugal force due to the rotation of the Earth offsetting gravity to a small amount. The earth also bulges at the equator, which makes a difference. Also due to the rotation of the planet.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: raven on February 03, 2016, 03:32:03 PM
Ah. OK, joking aside, from what I understand, Flat Earther's think the Flat Earth is accelerating upward at the rate of gravitational acceleration. Which makes sense, at least compared to other Flat Earther  claims, except . . . correct me if I am wrong, but does not the force of gravity vary by region (slightly, but significantly in the statistical sense). If it was caused by the Earth accelerating upward, would it not be the exact same anywhere on the the planet?
The measurable acceleration due to gravity does change, from about 9.78 m/s2 at the Equator to about 9.83 m/s2 at the poles. This is due to centrifugal force due to the rotation of the Earth offsetting gravity to a small amount.
I know. I'm just asking if the world was a pancake accelerating upward (like the floor of a rocket capsule accelerating upward) would it not be the same in all places?
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: bknight on February 03, 2016, 03:32:15 PM
I know that the distance from the center of the Earth results in a different gravitational constant, I 've not read of any other variance.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: DonQuixote on February 03, 2016, 03:51:51 PM

I am always cautioning the students who see these videos to not think the camera is showing the curvature of the earth. It's simply an artifact of the very wide angle lenses on these small cameras. It would take some care to depict the true shape of the horizon.

In a video of Adam Savage of the Mythbusters flying at 70,000' in a U-2, he does claim he could visually discern the curvature of the earth.

Good stuff!

I've been using this one I ran across of Derek Deville's rocket launch



versus this record-breaking launches from GoFast back in 2004 and 2014





to illustrate that the curvature, even at the altitudes they reach, is subtle and very much subject to fisheye distortion. Deville's use of an old Fliphd in a side-mounted view seems to suffer from the least distortion, but I'm far from what anyone would consider an expert in this(or sadly, any) field.

As a layman with some grasp of the relevant fields, I've been endeavouring to explain to some of the more scientifically/mathematically-challenged that even at the height of 73 miles that GoFast attained, they've only risen to an elevation of 0.59% above the maximum observable circumference(half of a sphere, in other words, in this case 12,450.8 miles).

Now let's say you have a bowling ball 27 inches in circumference, it's observable circumference being 13.5 inches, the relative elevation above its surface would be

13.5 * .0059 = .079 inches

After a bit of searching, I found something of roughly this same thickness - 12-gauge copper wire.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_wire_gauge

So by way of analogy, these rockets would enjoy relatively the same view as an ant atop a 12-gauge wire atop a bowling ball.

Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Trebor on February 03, 2016, 03:59:36 PM
Ah. OK, joking aside, from what I understand, Flat Earther's think the Flat Earth is accelerating upward at the rate of gravitational acceleration. Which makes sense, at least compared to other Flat Earther  claims, except . . . correct me if I am wrong, but does not the force of gravity vary by region (slightly, but significantly in the statistical sense). If it was caused by the Earth accelerating upward, would it not be the exact same anywhere on the the planet?
...
I know. I'm just asking if the world was a pancake accelerating upward (like the floor of a rocket capsule accelerating upward) would it not be the same in all places?
I guess if it was wobbling at the same time there would be some variation....
Imagine if the Earth flipped over!
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: DonQuixote on February 03, 2016, 04:00:54 PM
I know. I'm just asking if the world was a pancake accelerating upward (like the floor of a rocket capsule accelerating upward) would it not be the same in all places?

Your reasoning is sound. If "flatworld" were accelerating upward as they claim, there would be no change in measured drop rate(avoiding the "g-word" here to keep things as "flat" as possible). No matter where you stood, it would always be the same.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Allan F on February 03, 2016, 06:03:08 PM
But how fast would it go? Depends on when it was "created"? If it was 6000 years ago, it would be quite a lot faster than light. 6200 times faster.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Peter B on February 03, 2016, 07:28:00 PM
Here is something for you globe-earthers to think about.

Can you personally prove the following, that is by measurable or observation experiments?
1) The earth is round

Triangulation and distances. According to the map of the Earth you adhere to, a drive from Sydney to Adelaide (east to west) would be about four times longer than a drive from Sydney to Brisbane (south to north). In reality the drive to Adelaide is about 1.5 times longer. People drive around Australia all the time and so the distances between major cities are well verified. They match a spherical Earth, not a flat Earth.

Quote
2) The earth is spinning

Foucault's Pendulum. Or the Coriolis Effect, which affects even artillery shells.

Or do you think that soldiers would willingly degrade the effectiveness of their weapons in order to maintain the conspiracy?

Quote
3) The earth orbits the sun.

Stellar parallax. The fact that Venus shows phases, which are directly related to its angular size. That's impossible according to your illustration.

Quote
4) The moon orbits the earth.

Everyone on the half of the Earth with the Moon above the horizon sees the Moon showing the same phase and the same size at the same time, and against the same background stars. That's impossible in the scenario provided by your map.

Quote
5) Water adheres to a curves surface rotating at 1,000 mph

Gravity. The same gravity which makes things fall to the ground, and which makes the Earth and Moon orbit each other, and which make the Earth-Moon system orbit the Sun, and which control the motions of the spacecraft we send into orbit around the Earth or off to distant planets. That is, a single concept governs a range of related situations.

Quote
6) Gravity exists

See above.

What causes everything to stay on the Earth in your Flat Earth view? Intelligent Falling? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligent_falling)

Quote
7) A person doesn't feel the change in rotational speed as he moves from the equator to the north pole where the rotation velocity goes from 1,000 mph to 0 mph.

Because a person is moving with the surface of the Earth. Exactly the same way, as JayUtah pointed out, your cup of coffee doesn't fly off the back of the table when you let go of it while travelling on a train.

ETA: In the meantime you might like to explain why I can watch the stars in the southern sky move around a point which doesn't contain the Pole Star.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: LunarOrbit on February 03, 2016, 08:27:06 PM
Ah. OK, joking aside, from what I understand, Flat Earther's think the Flat Earth is accelerating upward at the rate of gravitational acceleration.

It just makes me wonder... what is causing the acceleration? Giant rocket engines on the underside of the flat Earth? What is fuelling the rockets?
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: bknight on February 03, 2016, 08:30:33 PM
Ah. OK, joking aside, from what I understand, Flat Earther's think the Flat Earth is accelerating upward at the rate of gravitational acceleration.

It just makes me wonder... what is causing the acceleration? Giant rocket engines on the underside of the flat Earth? What is fuelling the rockets?
The FE Gas Bags :)
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: LunarOrbit on February 03, 2016, 08:33:30 PM
Ah. OK, joking aside, from what I understand, Flat Earther's think the Flat Earth is accelerating upward at the rate of gravitational acceleration.

It just makes me wonder... what is causing the acceleration? Giant rocket engines on the underside of the flat Earth? What is fuelling the rockets?
The FE Gas Bags :)

So there is an infinite supply then? Good to know! If the FE engines ran out of fuel the acceleration would stop and we'd all fly off into space! ;)
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: LunarOrbit on February 03, 2016, 09:06:50 PM
Can you personally prove the following, that is by measurable or observation experiments?
1) The earth is round

I can observe other planets and moons through a telescope. They're all shaped like globes, so it seems reasonable to suspect that Earth is also.

Quote
2) The earth is spinning

I can take long-exposure photographs of the stars which will show them smearing into circles.

Quote
3) The earth orbits the sun.

I have personally witnessed the planet Venus transit across the front of the Sun at a precisely predicted time. Therefore it is reasonable for me to believe planets orbit stars, not the other way around.
 
Quote
4) The moon orbits the earth.

I have seen the moon rise and set. If the Earth was flat, and the moon wasn't orbiting the Earth, wouldn't it always be visible in the sky?

I have observed the moons of Jupiter through my telescope. They orbit the planet, so why would our moon be different?

Explain to me the mechanics behind your flat Earth's moon. How does it maintain it's position over the Earth which is accelerating "upwards" to create the effect of gravity (see #6)? Why doesn't the Earth plow right through the Moon like a car hitting a mosquito?

Quote
5) Water adheres to a curves surface rotating at 1,000 mph

For the same reason my butt is adhering to my chair... gravity.

Quote
6) Gravity exists

How else do you explain the downward force that holds things down and causes apples to fall from trees?

I'm assuming you believe the "flat Earth" is accelerating upwards and that creates the effect of gravity. But like I mentioned in another post, that only makes me wonder what is causing the Earth to accelerate?

Quote
7) A person doesn't feel the change in rotational speed as he moves from the equator to the north pole where the rotation velocity goes from 1,000 mph to 0 mph.

I may be wrong, but I believe it's because the change from one location to the other is gradual (unless you are able to teleport between the two). Your personal speed is always relative to the surface of the Earth at your location. It's like a train... if you are on the train and it slowly accelerates from 0mph to 65mph you don't notice the change in speed as much as you would if you tried to jump onto a fast moving train.

Now it's your turn to prove to me that you aren't just a troll. Prove the Earth is flat, and answer the questions that the other members have asked you. I'll give you until the end of the day on Friday, and then I will decide whether to ban you or not.

Good luck.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Dalhousie on February 03, 2016, 11:11:41 PM
I wonder how flat earthers deal with time zones and two celestial poles?
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Al Johnston on February 04, 2016, 05:46:49 AM
Ah. OK, joking aside, from what I understand, Flat Earther's think the Flat Earth is accelerating upward at the rate of gravitational acceleration. Which makes sense, at least compared to other Flat Earther  claims, except . . . correct me if I am wrong, but does not the force of gravity vary by region (slightly, but significantly in the statistical sense). If it was caused by the Earth accelerating upward, would it not be the exact same anywhere on the the planet?
...
I know. I'm just asking if the world was a pancake accelerating upward (like the floor of a rocket capsule accelerating upward) would it not be the same in all places?
I guess if it was wobbling at the same time there would be some variation....
Imagine if the Earth flipped over!

I'm somewhat surprised this hasn't happened yet: every meteoroid will hit at a faster relative speed than the one before, and kinetic energy increases by the square of velocity...
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: tradosaurus on February 04, 2016, 08:23:09 AM
Can you personally prove the following, that is by measurable or observation experiments?
1) The earth is round
I can observe other planets and moons through a telescope. They're all shaped like globes, so it seems reasonable to suspect that Earth is also.
Quote
2) The earth is spinning
I can take long-exposure photographs of the stars which will show them smearing into circles.
Quote
3) The earth orbits the sun.
I have personally witnessed the planet Venus transit across the front of the Sun at a precisely predicted time. Therefore it is reasonable for me to believe planets orbit stars, not the other way around.
Quote
4) The moon orbits the earth.
I have seen the moon rise and set. If the Earth was flat, and the moon wasn't orbiting the Earth, wouldn't it always be visible in the sky?
I have observed the moons of Jupiter through my telescope. They orbit the planet, so why would our moon be different?
Explain to me the mechanics behind your flat Earth's moon. How does it maintain it's position over the Earth which is accelerating "upwards" to create the effect of gravity (see #6)? Why doesn't the Earth plow right through the Moon like a car hitting a mosquito?
Quote
5) Water adheres to a curves surface rotating at 1,000 mph
For the same reason my butt is adhering to my chair... gravity.
Quote
6) Gravity exists
How else do you explain the downward force that holds things down and causes apples to fall from trees?
I'm assuming you believe the "flat Earth" is accelerating upwards and that creates the effect of gravity. But like I mentioned in another post, that only makes me wonder what is causing the Earth to accelerate?

Quote
7) A person doesn't feel the change in rotational speed as he moves from the equator to the north pole where the rotation velocity goes from 1,000 mph to 0 mph.
I may be wrong, but I believe it's because the change from one location to the other is gradual (unless you are able to teleport between the two). Your personal speed is always relative to the surface of the Earth at your location. It's like a train... if you are on the train and it slowly accelerates from 0mph to 65mph you don't notice the change in speed as much as you would if you tried to jump onto a fast moving train.
Now it's your turn to prove to me that you aren't just a troll. Prove the Earth is flat, and answer the questions that the other members have asked you. I'll give you until the end of the day on Friday, and then I will decide whether to ban you or not.
Good luck.

Oooooo, the threat of being banned.   ;)

The reasons you gave for a globe earth universe is by faith not by facts.  That was the point I was trying to make.

1. Other planets being round could easily mean you are looking at a dinner plate instead of a sphere.  However even if other planets were spheres that doesn't dictate the earth is one.  There is no way to test your theory.
2.  So you see stars rotate around a center point (which actually proves an earth centered universe) and you conclude the earth is spinning?  That takes a lot of faith. 
3. Venus transiting in front of the sun?  I hope you weren't blinded.   ;)  Again you are witnessing movement and concluding that the earth is orbiting the sun when it is just as viable to conclude that everything else is orbiting the earth.
4. The flat earth map shows how the moon and sun would appear to "set" beyond the horizon because what is called the vanishing point.  Remember that the sun and moon are only about 4,000 miles in diameter.
(http://tealtribe.s3.amazonaws.com/15930c5d3c284530e6271c0abce58feb7460e8d4dbe31.png)
5. So how does your gravity know to apply just the right amount of force to keep amounts of water spinning at varying speeds (from 1,000 mph at the equator to 0 at the poles) in place?  Sounds like science fiction to me.  Also no where in nature do you observe water adhering to a spinning curved surface.  Water is always flung off the surface.
6.  The affects of objects falling to earth can be explained by the affect of buoyancy.  What causes an object to float in water?  Gravity?  Can air be considered a medium like water?
7.  Well you are postulating on this with no evidence.  I'm saying the globe earth universe is ludicrous because of the crazy velocities and distances between stars (that can't be measured).
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: bknight on February 04, 2016, 08:37:32 AM
Traosaurus, you still have not addressed my question concerning ships approaching, quit stalling and address the question.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: tradosaurus on February 04, 2016, 09:12:58 AM
Here is something for you globe-earthers to think about.

Can you personally prove the following, that is by measurable or observation experiments?
1) The earth is round

Triangulation and distances. According to the map of the Earth you adhere to, a drive from Sydney to Adelaide (east to west) would be about four times longer than a drive from Sydney to Brisbane (south to north). In reality the drive to Adelaide is about 1.5 times longer. People drive around Australia all the time and so the distances between major cities are well verified. They match a spherical Earth, not a flat Earth.

Quote
2) The earth is spinning

Foucault's Pendulum. Or the Coriolis Effect, which affects even artillery shells.

Or do you think that soldiers would willingly degrade the effectiveness of their weapons in order to maintain the conspiracy?

Quote
3) The earth orbits the sun.

Stellar parallax. The fact that Venus shows phases, which are directly related to its angular size. That's impossible according to your illustration.

Quote
4) The moon orbits the earth.

Everyone on the half of the Earth with the Moon above the horizon sees the Moon showing the same phase and the same size at the same time, and against the same background stars. That's impossible in the scenario provided by your map.

Quote
5) Water adheres to a curves surface rotating at 1,000 mph

Gravity. The same gravity which makes things fall to the ground, and which makes the Earth and Moon orbit each other, and which make the Earth-Moon system orbit the Sun, and which control the motions of the spacecraft we send into orbit around the Earth or off to distant planets. That is, a single concept governs a range of related situations.

Quote
6) Gravity exists

See above.

What causes everything to stay on the Earth in your Flat Earth view? Intelligent Falling? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligent_falling)

Quote
7) A person doesn't feel the change in rotational speed as he moves from the equator to the north pole where the rotation velocity goes from 1,000 mph to 0 mph.

Because a person is moving with the surface of the Earth. Exactly the same way, as JayUtah pointed out, your cup of coffee doesn't fly off the back of the table when you let go of it while travelling on a train.

ETA: In the meantime you might like to explain why I can watch the stars in the southern sky move around a point which doesn't contain the Pole Star.
1. Flight patterns disagree with you.
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-X55RuPop_94/Vb-KlkMrcoI/AAAAAAAAP-c/yMZD2Sd3UME/s1600/sydney-santiago.jpg)
2. Foucault’s pendulums do not uniformly swing in any one direction. Sometimes they rotate clockwise and sometimes counter-clockwise, sometimes they fail to rotate and sometimes they rotate far too much. The behavior of the pendulum actually depends on 1) the initial force beginning its swing and, 2) the ball-and-socket joint used which most-readily facilitates circular motion over any other. The supposed rotation of the Earth is completely inconsequential and irrelevant to the pendulum’s swing.
3. Tycho Brahe famously argued against the heliocentric theory in his time, positing that if the Earth revolved around the Sun, the change in relative position of the stars after 6 months orbital motion could not fail to be seen. He argued that the stars should seem to separate as we approach and come together as we recede. In actual fact, however, after 190,000,000 miles of supposed orbit around the Sun, not a single inch of parallax can be detected in the stars, proving we have not moved at all.
4. Time-lapse photography shows the Moon itself turns clockwise like a wheel as it circles over and around the Earth. You can find pictures of the Moon at 360 degrees of various inclination from all over the Earth simply depending on where and when the picture was taken.
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-x346bGVDcB0/Vb-dTil4cgI/AAAAAAAAQG0/ooVXHQrWOTo/s1600/ZPY5fvh.jpg)
 Did you also know that the moon and the sun are the same size in the sky but we are TOLD that the sun is really far enough away that it just so happens it appears to be the same size as the moon?  lol
5.  The natural physics of water is to find and maintain its level. If Earth were a giant sphere tilted, wobbling and hurdling through infinite space then truly flat, consistently level surfaces would not exist here. But since Earth is in fact an extended flat plane, this fundamental physical property of fluids finding and remaining level is consistent with experience and common sense.
 (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-BzGVw13HCD8/Vb-BpzCCjXI/AAAAAAAAP7E/hN8mSGTv19k/s1600/water-level-flat-earth.jpg)
6.   If “gravity” is credited with being a force strong enough to curve the massive expanse of oceans around a globular Earth, it would be impossible for fish and other creatures to swim through such forcefully held water.  How does gravity affect an objects ability to sink or float in water?
7. A spinning object will create a force called centrifugal force.  You feel this force if you have been on a merry go round.  The faster it spun the harder it was to hang on.  How does this magical gravity hold everything on a sphere (globe earth) where the speed is not constant depending upon your location?  In fact I should weigh the least at the equator as that is the max velocity I would experience on a rotating globe earth. 

The above explanations are why I keep stating that the globe earth is a religion based on faith and not observational facts.  We see one thing but are TOLD to believe another.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Apollo 957 on February 04, 2016, 09:35:59 AM
Trad, are you familiar with Sputnik? The first Russian satellite, in fact the first man-made satellite ever?

Do you disbelieve it? Think that was some form of hoax?

"Flight patterns disagree with you. "

They're lines drawn on a map. Are you going to give us a clue as to what you think they prove?
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: frenat on February 04, 2016, 09:41:28 AM
1. Your graphic for flight patterns is deceptive.  It chooses airlines and flights that connect in the US for hub or aircraft reasons (an aircraft with less range and/or two engines will not make a direct Australia to South America flight) when there ARE direct connecting flights.

2. Prove it.

3. Wrong.  Parallax IS seen with closer stars.  The claim that it is not is a lie.

4. The apparent rotation you describe is called field rotation.  It is predictable based on the observers location and time of viewing using data from a ROUND earth.  It is caused because the observer is on a round surface that is rotating changing their point of view.  Yet more proof of a round Earth.

5. Water is level AND curved.  Level on a sphere denotes being at the same altitude or the same distance from the center.  Common sense would indicate that on a flat plane objects at distance would just decrease in size until not visible anymore.  What is seen in reality is they disappear over the horizon from the bottom up.

6. Gravity is based on mass.  Objects with less mass feel a lesser force known as weight.  One would think a self-described engineer would know that.

7. You do weigh the least on the equator.  Centrifugal force amounts to an opposing force of about 0.23 percent of gravity.

If the Earth was flat then it should be simple to come up with an accurate flat map with no distortion. Why then do flatties prefer to use the azimuth equidistant PROJECTION from a globe which has enormous distortion in the Southern hemisphere?  or do you really think Australia is bigger than the US and nobody noticed?   ::)
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: nomuse on February 04, 2016, 09:54:01 AM

The reasons you gave for a globe earth universe is by faith not by facts.  That was the point I was trying to make.

No, that's the claim you are making. You haven't come close to showing it. Everyone here on this forum has personal experiences and has witnessed experiments that favor a round world.

1. Other planets being round could easily mean you are looking at a dinner plate instead of a sphere.  However even if other planets were spheres that doesn't dictate the earth is one.  There is no way to test your theory.


Liberal Arts major here.

The planets shadow like a sphere. I realize you don't have the experience in illustrating rounded objects, whether in charcoal or paint or whatever, but the way the self-shadow falls (as well as the way the light shades) is specific to a sphere and unmistakeable.

I've got a little 2" telescope that is a replica (using better glass) of what Galileo was using. I've looked at Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, and can (one would hope!) see the "Galilean Satellites"; the four biggest/brightest moons of Jupiter. Except for the latter four (which are too darn small to be anything more than specks of light for me) not a single one is a dinner plate. They range from crescent to near-circle, AND THEY CHANGE over the months.

2.  So you see stars rotate around a center point (which actually proves an earth centered universe) and you conclude the earth is spinning?  That takes a lot of faith.

What? If I sit in a swivel chair and put my feet up, I can make it look like the whole world is spinning around me. I'm pretty sure, though, that it is just me.


3. Venus transiting in front of the sun?  I hope you weren't blinded.   ;)  Again you are witnessing movement and concluding that the earth is orbiting the sun when it is just as viable to conclude that everything else is orbiting the earth.

True, but the order becomes important. If Venus can pass in front of the Sun, then Venus needs to be closer to Earth than the Sun in your model as well. The Aristotalians did figure that out, though; the usual geocentric model has the Sun appearing in the middle, with "inner planets" (Mercury, Venus, and they counted the Moon as well) on one side and Outer Plantets (Jupiter et al...although the list was shorter then) on the other side.


4. The flat earth map shows how the moon and sun would appear to "set" beyond the horizon because what is called the vanishing point.  Remember that the sun and moon are only about 4,000 miles in diameter.

Do I have to keep harping on the Liberal Arts thing? Not just drew a web comic for a while (poorly, but what do you want) but also have physically built scenery for the stage that incorporates false perspective.

You are enlisting an effect that is your own worst enemy here. The railroad tracks you show SHRINK IN SIZE until they are an infinitesimal point (which is not necessarily at the horizon, mind you; there's nothing magical about the horizon line. If you extend the railroad tracks into the air then their vanishing point is there).

And I've never seen the Sun change size (or the Moon, even, and that's a LOT closer in any model than the Sun is).


5. So how does your gravity know to apply just the right amount of force to keep amounts of water spinning at varying speeds (from 1,000 mph at the equator to 0 at the poles) in place?  Sounds like science fiction to me.  Also no where in nature do you observe water adhering to a spinning curved surface.  Water is always flung off the surface.

What?

This is like saying how does a sidewalk know how to provide enough support for a small dog and for a fully loaded shopping cart. It doesn't. It pulls hard enough so the difference doesn't matter.

And velocity doesn't matter. Not one bit, not to anyone. If I'm on a transoceanic flight, I don't have to work any harder to walk back to my seat as it was to walk rearwards to the bathrooms. I can sip coffee or even pour creamer without trying to compensate for the hundreds of KPH the airplane is moving.

Acceleration matters.



6.  The affects of objects falling to earth can be explained by the affect of buoyancy.  What causes an object to float in water?  Gravity?  Can air be considered a medium like water?
7.  Well you are postulating on this with no evidence.  I'm saying the globe earth universe is ludicrous because of the crazy velocities and distances between stars (that can't be measured).

Buoyancy. I'm going to have to think about this one! It's so nonsensical on the face of it that it might actually come around and start making sense from the other side.

Incidentally, you CAN measure the distance to stars. Takes a sharp eye but was done...1800's I think it was, not going to look it up...with really primitive equipment. In fact, I think I visited a place where it was done (Greenwich).

And how it is done? Again, ask an artist. Parallax is akin to perspective.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Peter B on February 04, 2016, 10:27:10 AM
1. Flight patterns disagree with you.
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-X55RuPop_94/Vb-KlkMrcoI/AAAAAAAAP-c/yMZD2Sd3UME/s1600/sydney-santiago.jpg)

No, those maps disagree with me. And what those maps have to do with anything I don't know.

All I need to do is Google "Sydney to Santiago" to find a flight duration of 12 hours 30 minutes. When I Google "Sydney to Los Angeles" I get a flight duration of 13 hours 55 minutes. Yet according to that map of yours a flight from Sydney to Santiago passes through Los Angeles. How can a flight of twice the distance according your map take less time?

And please address the issue of travel times in Australia. The map on the right shows an Australia which simply doesn't accord with travel distances. You might be able to get away with distortions like that with fellow Americans, but not with people who travel around Australia.

Quote
2. Foucault’s pendulums do not uniformly swing in any one direction. Sometimes they rotate clockwise and sometimes counter-clockwise, sometimes they fail to rotate and sometimes they rotate far too much. The behavior of the pendulum actually depends on 1) the initial force beginning its swing and, 2) the ball-and-socket joint used which most-readily facilitates circular motion over any other. The supposed rotation of the Earth is completely inconsequential and irrelevant to the pendulum’s swing.

I'm sorry, I think you're fibbing about the precession of the pendulums, and I think you're quibbling about the set-ups. Pendulums in the one hemisphere all precess in the same direction. Pendulums on the Equator don't precess. And a pendulum set up at the South Pole precessed 360 degrees in one day, exactly as predicted.

And please address the issue of the Coriolis Force.

Quote
3. Tycho Brahe famously argued against the heliocentric theory in his time, positing that if the Earth revolved around the Sun, the change in relative position of the stars after 6 months orbital motion could not fail to be seen. He argued that the stars should seem to separate as we approach and come together as we recede. In actual fact, however, after 190,000,000 miles of supposed orbit around the Sun, not a single inch of parallax can be detected in the stars, proving we have not moved at all.

Stellar parallax was observed in the 19th century by astronomers with Earth-based instruments considerably more sensitive than those available to Mr Brahe, and it's been measured with higher levels of accuracy by the Hipparcos satellite since 1989. The issue is simply that stars are a very long way away, even compared with the 300-odd million kilometre diameter of the Earth's orbit.

And please address the issue of the phases of Venus.

Quote
4. Time-lapse photography shows the Moon itself turns clockwise like a wheel as it circles over and around the Earth. You can find pictures of the Moon at 360 degrees of various inclination from all over the Earth simply depending on where and when the picture was taken.
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-x346bGVDcB0/Vb-dTil4cgI/AAAAAAAAQG0/ooVXHQrWOTo/s1600/ZPY5fvh.jpg)

Please provide a link to this alleged time-lapse photography of the Moon turning like a wheel.

And please address the issue that everyone on the half of the Earth with the Moon above the horizon sees the Moon showing the same phase and the same size at the same time, and against the same background stars.

Quote
Did you also know that the moon and the sun are the same size in the sky but we are TOLD that the sun is really far enough away that it just so happens it appears to be the same size as the moon?  lol

Yes, I did know that. I've observed both the Moon and the Sun. As for the fact that they have the same angular size, yes, it's an amazing coincidence. And that's all.

Quote
5.  The natural physics of water is to find and maintain its level. If Earth were a giant sphere tilted, wobbling and hurdling through infinite space then truly flat, consistently level surfaces would not exist here. But since Earth is in fact an extended flat plane, this fundamental physical property of fluids finding and remaining level is consistent with experience and common sense.
 (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-BzGVw13HCD8/Vb-BpzCCjXI/AAAAAAAAP7E/hN8mSGTv19k/s1600/water-level-flat-earth.jpg)

Lovely pictures. But yes, the surface of the Earth is curved, which is why the hulls of sailing ships disappeared before their masts did. When you have a globe of nearly 13,000 kilometres in diameter, even in those pictures you can't easily see the curvature of the apparently flat surface. But all points of the surface of the ocean are equidistant from the Earth's centre of gravity.

Quote
6.   If “gravity” is credited with being a force strong enough to curve the massive expanse of oceans around a globular Earth, it would be impossible for fish and other creatures to swim through such forcefully held water.

Why?

Quote
How does gravity affect an objects ability to sink or float in water?

It doesn't. Objects float or sink due to buoyancy, which is the relative density of the water and the object placed in the water. If the object's density is greater than water, then gravity determines which direction the object goes (that is, down).

And please explain what keeps us on the ground according to Flat-Earthism? Is it Intelligent Falling?

Quote
7. A spinning object will create a force called centrifugal force.  You feel this force if you have been on a merry go round.  The faster it spun the harder it was to hang on.  How does this magical gravity hold everything on a sphere (globe earth) where the speed is not constant depending upon your location?

Because the force of gravity is much stronger than the centrifugal force generated by an object spinning at the rate of 1 revolution per day.

Quote
In fact I should weigh the least at the equator as that is the max velocity I would experience on a rotating globe earth. 

And you do! It's just that the weight reduction is about 0.5% - measurable but not enough to see you thrown off the Earth at the Equator.

And please address why your cup of coffee on the train doesn't slide off the table when you let go of it.

Quote
The above explanations are why I keep stating that the globe earth is a religion based on faith and not observational facts.  We see one thing but are TOLD to believe another.

Yeah, well until you address the points I made here and the ones you avoided addressing in the post of mine you were responding to, I'll work on the basis that you're the one with a religious obsession.

So here's a brief summary:
- flight durations;
- shape of Australia;
- Coriolis Force;
- Observed stellar parallax;
- Phases of Venus;
- Time-lapse photography of rotating Moon;
- Observations of Moon;
- Disappearing ships;
- Fish swimming in the ocean;
- What keeps things stuck to Flat Earth; and
- Non-moving cups of coffee.

And, for bonus points, please explain the physics of the Sun according to FE physics.

Thank you.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Chew on February 04, 2016, 10:44:55 AM
1. Flight patterns disagree with you.

Baloney. Sydney and Perth are 1800 nmi apart. According to the flat earth model they are 4500 nmi apart. Scheduled flights between the two cities would have to fly at Mach 2.2 to arrive on time.

https://www.google.com/flights/#search;f=SYD;t=PER;d=2016-02-20;r=2016-02-24;tt=o;s=0


Quote
2. Foucault’s pendulums ... The supposed rotation of the Earth is completely inconsequential and irrelevant to the pendulum’s swing.

This is a nonsensical assertion without evidence. The direction of rotation always depends on the hemisphere and the rate of rotation depends on the latitude. Without exception.

Quote
3. Tycho Brahe famously argued against the heliocentric theory in his time

In Tycho's time he was lucky to be able to measure stellar positions within a minute of arc, let alone the fractions of a second of arc required to measure parallax. His instruments would have to be able to measure 100 times more finely to detect the parallax.


Quote
In actual fact, however, after 190,000,000 miles of supposed orbit around the Sun, not a single inch of parallax can be detected in the stars,

That's because parallax isn't measured in inches. The symbol for the inch (") is also the symbol for seconds of arc. All of your astronomy knowledge obviously comes from the flat earth scriptures.


Quote
4. Time-lapse photography shows the Moon itself turns clockwise like a wheel as it circles over and around the Earth. You can find pictures of the Moon at 360 degrees of various inclination from all over the Earth simply depending on where and when the picture was taken.

And yet everybody everywhere always sees the same face of the Moon. And the same phase. If it's circling over your flat earth then people on opposite sides of the Moon should see opposite sides of the Moon and the phase should be different for each observer.


Quote
Did you also know that the moon and the sun are the same size in the sky but we are TOLD that the sun is really far enough away that it just so happens it appears to be the same size as the moon?  lol

No, they're not the same size. Here's a pic of an annular eclipse:

(http://www.beingintheshadow.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/fig-8-annular-eclipse.jpg)


Quote
5.  The natural physics of water is to find and maintain its level. If Earth were a giant sphere tilted, wobbling and hurdling through infinite space then truly flat, consistently level surfaces would not exist here.

Once again you demonstrate your complete of understanding of inertia and the vectors and magnitudes of the forces involved. The tilt of the earth does not affect anything except the amount of sunshine different locations will receive. The wobble takes 26,000 years to complete one revolution. "Hurdling" through a vacuum imparts no forces on the Earth whatsoever.


Quote
6.   If “gravity” is credited with being a force strong enough to curve the massive expanse of oceans around a globular Earth,

Gravity doesn't "curve" anything. Gravity pulls down. Pull water down and of course it will be level.


Quote
it would be impossible for fish and other creatures to swim through such forcefully held water.

"forcefully held water"??? Bwahaha! I'd love to see your math for that!

Quote
  How does gravity affect an objects ability to sink or float in water?

An object will neither sink nor float if there isn't a downward force applied to the object and to the medium.


Quote
7. A spinning object will create a force called centrifugal force.  You feel this force if you have been on a merry go round.  The faster it spun the harder it was to hang on.

A merry-go-round is a great example of the minuscule centrifugal force of the rotating earth. I asked you earlier to tell us how much centrifugal acceleration we experience after you claimed water should be flung off of the earth because it spins at 1000 mph but you ignored it. So now's your chance to dazzle us by comparing the centrifugal force of the rotating earth to a merry-go-round.

But of course you can't show us your math because the only math you know is "curvature = 8 inches · mile²".

The answer is the centrifugal acceleration at the equator is equal to the centrifugal acceleration felt at the edge of a 2 meter diameter merry-go-round that completes one revolution every 34 seconds. That is equal to accelerating your car from 0 to 30 mph in the time span of 6 minutes 36 seconds. And you think you should be able to feel that? And that it is enough acceleration to fling water out into space?
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: DonQuixote on February 04, 2016, 11:21:56 AM
Quote from: Peter B
And, for bonus points, please explain the physics of the Sun according to FE physics.

Ultimately, this is where Flat Earth theory fails the hardest. They can't even agree on any self-consistent model. If they want to approach reality this solipsistically, that's no skin off my back. They're free to introduce as many pseudoforces into their model as they need to make it fit their frame of reference, but they should at least make sure it actually fits their observations, has internal consistency, and acknowledge that frames of reference can change.

And above all, they should stop insisting that any evidence that contradicts their "model" is of necessity faked. Science changes its models to match observations. If FEs want to be taken even remotely seriously, they should do the same.

I've watched people in this thread calmly and rationally answer every challenge presented against the earth being round, sometimes repeatedly, just to have Trad hand-wave them away; so if he wants to cling to his belief that the world is flat, he's free to do so as far as I'm concerned, but observations show that, at best, that could only be considered to be "locally," personally true – just not objectively.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: bknight on February 04, 2016, 11:38:55 AM
Quote from: Peter B
And, for bonus points, please explain the physics of the Sun according to FE physics.

Ultimately, this is where Flat Earth theory fails the hardest. They can't even agree on any self-consistent model. If they want to approach reality this solipsistically, that's no skin off my back. They're free to introduce as many pseudoforces into their model as they need to make it fit their frame of reference, but they should at least make sure it actually fits their observations, has internal consistency, and acknowledge that frames of reference can change.

And above all, they should stop insisting that any evidence that contradicts their "model" is of necessity faked. Science changes its models to match observations. If FEs want to be taken even remotely seriously, they should do the same.

I've watched people in this thread calmly and rationally answer every challenge presented against the earth being round, sometimes repeatedly, just to have Trad hand-wave them away; so if he wants to cling to his belief that the world is flat, he's free to do so as far as I'm concerned, but observations show that, at best, that could only be considered to be "locally," personally true – just not objectively.
Edited to clarify who the adjective was directed.
tradosaurus is a Troll!
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: DonQuixote on February 04, 2016, 11:50:25 AM
I'm in no way trolling here, bknight, merely stating that if FEs want to believe in a flat earth, that has zero impact on me personally(well, other than me questioning their mental faculties), but they should have the courage to label it as such. I can believe that a vast, cosmic raccoon created the cosmos, but it doesn't make it true.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: bknight on February 04, 2016, 11:54:09 AM
I'm in no way trolling here, bknight, merely stating that if FEs want to believe in a flat earth, that has zero impact on me personally(well, other than me questioning their mental faculties), but they should have the courage to label it as such. I can believe that a vast, cosmic raccoon created the cosmos, but it doesn't make it true.
No sir, that was directed at tradosaurus, my appologies
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: DonQuixote on February 04, 2016, 11:58:09 AM
Quote from: bknight
No sir, that was directed at tradosaurus, my appologies

Ahh understood. No problem at all.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Cat Not Included on February 04, 2016, 12:32:54 PM
If tradasaurus is genuine, I would have to feel deep sympathy for him. Can you imagine how terrifying it must be to not believe gravity exists? I picture him crawling around with velco to keep from crashing into the ceiling, afraid to go outside for fear that at any moment he might be unexpectedly catapulted into the sky to freeze somewhere far above (or perhaps, in his world, to burn up as he gets too close to the sun).

And then all the frustrations. Even assuming he can go outside, what an enormous pain it must to be to get anywhere. He can't trust a GPS - they are supposed to use satellites, so they are clearly all lying. Flight times are based on a round Earth, so they must be wrong. He can never know how long it will take to get anywhere. He dare not travel too far, or he might risk blundering into the edge of the Earth and being "censured" by the illuminati (or whatever organization controls the world).
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: gillianren on February 04, 2016, 01:04:49 PM
How do constellations work on a flat Earth?  Orion is high in my local sky these nights, but in a few months, he'll go away again.  Where does he go?
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: DonQuixote on February 04, 2016, 01:11:26 PM
I've been trying to come up with my own analogy for FEs and certain other CTs that ignore contradictory evidence. I'm calling it the Orange Housecat Fallacy.

In it, the first housecat the fallacy's perpetrator ever sees is orange, and he thus asserts that all cats of another color must be a separate species. Whenever people show him pictures of cats of various colors, he cites examples of convergent adaptation to disprove them. When shown litters of kittens of various colors with an orange mother, he asserts that, unique among all animals, housecats can produce litters of varying species. When shown DNA evidence supporting the fact that they're all the same species, he says DNA doesn't exist, because he's never found any.
Title: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Sus_pilot on February 04, 2016, 01:12:11 PM
By the by, Trad, I'm still waiting for you to explain why I have to tell my flight students that the wind generally shifts 30 degrees to the right as they climb. 

Added bonus questions - why, when we use paper sectional charts (aeronautical maps), do we tell our students the most accurate true courses are found near the center?  Why, if I take the US set and piece them together, do they not match perfectly at the edges?

Just for fun, using a very popular software used by pilots ranging from Sport Pilots to Airline Transport Pilots, here are two shots of a flight from Honolulu International to John F. Kennedy in New York (the numbers are for Cessna 182, BTW).  The blue dot is where I'm sitting in Omaha, NE.  This is the shortest path for the flight, ignoring obstacles and airspace.  Note that the first image is a nice straight line.  The second is of the flight patch with the software centered roughly on the equator in the middle of the flight path, showing a pretty good arc - this is what happens when you plot a straight line on a sphere and try to show it in two dimensions - change the center of projection and it HAS to curve.  BTW, yes I know most of the world is grayed out on this, but I'm not paying for the international data just to prove a self-evident point.

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160204/db99a624b56b546d17c6743a60363a40.jpg)

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160204/bcfdcc65f45a59365157e2eb727f5680.jpg)

ETA:  Looking at the images, no I'm not 2,600 feet above sea level - more like 1,000.  Note the GPS accuracy - I'm sitting in my company's HQ building at lunch, and it's essentially a giant Faraday cage (cell phone reception drove us nuts the first couple of years in here), so I'm amazed an iPad without an external antenna is getting any GPS information at all.

ETA - ETA:  Whoops - the altitude is fairly accurate, after all.  I saw the 2,600 and wanted to pre-empt Tad - that's actually the minimum safe altitude (VFR) above the tallest object in the area.  Those are the broadcast towers at 72nd Street in Omaha, which are roughly 1,500 feet tall to send FM TV and radio signals as far as possible - tall because the Earth is a sphere.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: bknight on February 04, 2016, 01:25:35 PM
The great circle routes are also contradictory to a FE proposal.  My classmates and I plotted a course from NE US to Europe both on a flat projection and on a globe.  Looking at the routes taken by commercial aircraft followed the course plotted on the globe.
But you all, except for our guest, knew this.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Cat Not Included on February 04, 2016, 02:16:44 PM
By the by, Trad, I'm still waiting for you to explain why I have to tell my flight students that the wind generally shifts 30 degrees to the right as they climb.
Well, obviously, as a pilot, you are in on the conspiracy.

All the pilots have to be in on it. Every pilot in the world, in all the different countries.
Every space agency of every country.
Every shipping company.
Every freighter captain (or boat captain who is going to sail farther than directly along the coast)
Every GPS and map company.
Every professional astronomer, and a good chunk of the amateur ones.
Probably a decent chunk of geologists and oceanologists.
Of course, we'll need a big infrastructure of technicians and engineers to handle all the secret wiring and relay towers that covers up the imaginary satellites that we don't really have. They all have to be in on it.
Most people who have taken international flights.
Most of the google maps staff (this is no surprise; we all know they are out to control the world)
Many people who live near the ocean. Or spend much time near the ocean. Or visit the ocean a little and are reasonably observant.

I'm kind of curious, actually, which exactly is the small fraction of the populace that is supposed to be deceived by this conspiracy.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Sus_pilot on February 04, 2016, 02:21:22 PM

By the by, Trad, I'm still waiting for you to explain why I have to tell my flight students that the wind generally shifts 30 degrees to the right as they climb.
Well, obviously, as a pilot, you are in on the conspiracy.

All the pilots have to be in on it. Every pilot in the world, in all the different countries.
Every space agency of every country.
Every shipping company.
Every freighter captain (or boat captain who is going to sail farther than directly along the coast)
Every GPS and map company.
Every professional astronomer, and a good chunk of the amateur ones.
Probably a decent chunk of geologists and oceanologists.
Of course, we'll need a big infrastructure of technicians and engineers to handle all the secret wiring and relay towers that covers up the imaginary satellites that we don't really have. They all have to be in on it.
Most people who have taken international flights.
Most of the google maps staff (this is no surprise; we all know they are out to control the world)
Many people who live near the ocean. Or spend much time near the ocean. Or visit the ocean a little and are reasonably observant.

I'm kind of curious, actually, which exactly is the small fraction of the populace that is supposed to be deceived by this conspiracy.

Shhhh... I'm not just a pilot, but a flight instructor.  Don't tell Trad, but I get some pretty good residuals out of this...
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: twik on February 04, 2016, 04:13:57 PM
I've been trying to come up with my own analogy for FEs and certain other CTs that ignore contradictory evidence. I'm calling it the Orange Housecat Fallacy.

In it, the first housecat the fallacy's perpetrator ever sees is orange, and he thus asserts that all cats of another color must be a separate species. Whenever people show him pictures of cats of various colors, he cites examples of convergent adaptation to disprove them. When shown litters of kittens of various colors with an orange mother, he asserts that, unique among all animals, housecats can produce litters of varying species. When shown DNA evidence supporting the fact that they're all the same species, he says DNA doesn't exist, because he's never found any.

It reminds me of a medical story I heard once, about a doctor dealing with a patient suffering from the delusion he was dead (this is a real condition). The patient appeared generally lucid, except that he was convinced he was no longer living.

Upon learning that the patient had some education in biology, the doctor decided to give him incontrovertible proof the patient was, indeed, living.

"Do dead people bleed?" he asked the patient.

"No," the patient answered, and explained that when the circulation stops, so does bleeding.

"Well, see here," the doctor said, as he took the patient's hand and made a small nick on his finger with a scalpel. Blood immediately welled out. "Doesn't this prove you are alive?"

"No," the patient replied sadly. "But it does prove that dead people do bleed."
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Jason Thompson on February 04, 2016, 04:35:56 PM
1. Flight patterns disagree with you.

When did a few lines badly drawn on a google map count as a fight pattern? ALso, the question about the apparent massive difference in the size of Australia (among other southern countries) was raised. Do you have an answer? Or is everyone in Australia in on it too somehow?

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2. Foucault’s pendulums do not uniformly swing in any one direction.

No, they uniformly swing and rotate in a manner determined by their position on the rotating Earth.

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Sometimes they rotate clockwise and sometimes counter-clockwise

Yes, and the direction is connected to their location for a good reason.

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sometimes they fail to rotate

Any set up along the equator will not rotate. This is as expected.

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The behavior of the pendulum actually depends on 1) the initial force beginning its swing

The pendulum is set swinging by deflecting it and then releasing it. The initial force is the acceleration of gravity. Or are you suggesting that every pendulum is actually started from rest by hitting it to knock it off vertical?

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2) the ball-and-socket joint used which most-readily facilitates circular motion over any other.

Who says it has to be a ball and socket joint? A piece of thread secured at one end will also allow rotation, no ball and socket joint needed. But since the attachment only facilitates the rotation, what actually causes it in the first place in your view?

Quote
3. Tycho Brahe famously argued against the heliocentric theory in his time, positing that if the Earth revolved around the Sun, the change in relative position of the stars after 6 months orbital motion could not fail to be seen. He argued that the stars should seem to separate as we approach and come together as we recede. In actual fact, however, after 190,000,000 miles of supposed orbit around the Sun, not a single inch of parallax can be detected in the stars, proving we have not moved at all.

Or that the stars are much further away than he believed. If you believe a failure to detect something means it does not exist then you have no understanding of either science or logical reasoning, which makes you claim to be a 'degreed engineer' even more dubious than it already is. Since when did absence of evidence equate to evidence of absence?

Oh, and parallax is not measured in inches.

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4. Time-lapse photography shows the Moon itself turns clockwise like a wheel as it circles over and around the Earth. You can find pictures of the Moon at 360 degrees of various inclination from all over the Earth simply depending on where and when the picture was taken.

And you really can't see that a global Earth would produce this same observation?

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Did you also know that the moon and the sun are the same size in the sky but we are TOLD that the sun is really far enough away that it just so happens it appears to be the same size as the moon?

And you find this laughable why, exactly?

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5.  The natural physics of water is to find and maintain its level. If Earth were a giant sphere tilted, wobbling and hurdling through infinite space then truly flat, consistently level surfaces would not exist here.

Over what scale are you determining 'level-ness'? If you go down to the molecular level there truly are no flat surfaces.

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6.   If “gravity” is credited with being a force strong enough to curve the massive expanse of oceans around a globular Earth, it would be impossible for fish and other creatures to swim through such forcefully held water.

Why? Explain that in terms of the behaviour of water molecules under pressure, or do you not believe in water molecules either?

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How does gravity affect an objects ability to sink or float in water?

You never learned that in school? Really? Density, bouyancy, etc. are all alien concepts to you and you can't see how gravity would have any influence?

Quote
7. A spinning object will create a force called centrifugal force.

No it won't. There is no such thing as centrifugal force. What is perceived as an outward force is inertia against the constant acceleration of being pulled in a circular motion against an object's natural tendency to keep going in a straight line.

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How does this magical gravity hold everything on a sphere (globe earth) where the speed is not constant depending upon your location?

If one force is much greater than the other this will not be a problem. Guess what? Gravity on a mass the size of Earth is easily enough to overcome the inertia of an object on the surface being 'spun' at one revolution every 24 hours.

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In fact I should weigh the least at the equator as that is the max velocity I would experience on a rotating globe earth.

You do, but since the difference is less than the average variation of your bodyweight over the course of time, you won't notice it. Other, less variable, masses have been weighed at different locations on the Earth and do indeed weigh less at the equator than near the poles.
 
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The above explanations are why I keep stating that the globe earth is a religion based on faith and not observational facts.  We see one thing but are TOLD to believe another.

Wrong. I have seen plenty of things that lead me to conclude a spherical Earth. I do not accept it on blind faith.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Jason Thompson on February 04, 2016, 04:53:37 PM
1. Other planets being round could easily mean you are looking at a dinner plate instead of a sphere.

You've never looked through a telescope at the plents, have you? Venus and Mercury show distinct pahses that run all the way from thin crescent to full circle, just as the Moon does, and Mars shows a gibbous phase at certain points. So no, we could not be looking at a 'dinner plate' instead of a sphere.

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2.  So you see stars rotate around a center point (which actually proves an earth centered universe) and you conclude the earth is spinning?  That takes a lot of faith.

Why does that take any more faith than concluding that the whole universe is spinning? What makes your 'conclusion' any more valid?

But actually we see the stars rotating around two centre points: the north and south celestial poles. How could that happen in a flat Earth?
 
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3. Venus transiting in front of the sun?  I hope you weren't blinded.   ;)  Again you are witnessing movement and concluding that the earth is orbiting the sun when it is just as viable to conclude that everything else is orbiting the earth.

The ancient greeks thought that as well, and the mathematical hoops they had to jump through to get a model that fit the observations were staggering. Look up epicyles, equants, deferents, etc. And yet, even with all that over centuries, they still couldn't actually figure out how the planets moved in the sky. Once the Earth was taken out of the centre and the orbits were rendered elliptical instead of arrangements of circles suddenly it all made sense.
 
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4. The flat earth map shows how the moon and sun would appear to "set" beyond the horizon because what is called the vanishing point.

No, the vainshing point argument, as shown in your illustration, requires them to get smaller as they set. Things 'vanish' because the further they are the smaller they appear until they pass below your ability to resolve them. This is clearly not the case with the Sun or the Moon. They set slowly below the horizon, they do not shrink until they can no longer be seen. The vanishing point argument does not allow for sunset observations with half the sun above the horizon.

Please also explain how it is that the light from the Sun stops illuminating the sky if your vanishing point argument is correct. Even if I can't see a light source, I can see its light.
 
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5. So how does your gravity know to apply just the right amount of force to keep amounts of water spinning at varying speeds

It doesn't. It overcomes that variation by simply being much greater than it. How does your dining table know how to support a cup of tea or a Sunday roast, what with the huge differences between those items?

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Also no where in nature do you observe water adhering to a spinning curved surface.  Water is always flung off the surface.

This is utter garbage. I have seen water not flung off a rotating object many times. Your failure to grasp the difference between linear and angular speed is the issue. The important point is how many revolutions per time period are being made, not the linear speed at the surface.

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6.  The affects of objects falling to earth can be explained by the affect of buoyancy.  What causes an object to float in water?  Gravity?  Can air be considered a medium like water?

You claim a degree but you ask questions like this? Says a lot, really.

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7.  Well you are postulating on this with no evidence.  I'm saying the globe earth universe is ludicrous because of the crazy velocities and distances between stars (that can't be measured).

Argument from incredulity, and also wrong. Distances between stars can be meaured and have been.

[/quote]
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: bknight on February 04, 2016, 05:24:55 PM
I'm curious if anyone has been to one of the FE sites/forums to see if the same arguments, that tradosaurus uses are used by others and he is copying them?  I haven't visited nor do I plan to visit to   test this question, just asking if anyone has seen any of them.  The closest I came was watching about 2 min. of a YT video that I linked in the thread I started a coupled of months ago.  Total BS, and I stopped watching,



Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Zakalwe on February 04, 2016, 05:42:55 PM
I'm curious if anyone has been to one of the FE sites/forums to see if the same arguments, that tradosaurus uses are used by others and he is copying them?  I haven't visited nor do I plan to visit to   test this question, just asking if anyone has seen any of them.  The closest I came was watching about 2 min. of a YT video that I linked in the thread I started a coupled of months ago.  Total BS, and I stopped watching,


Its the same old bunkum, repeated ad naseum.

One thing I can't work out is why they seem to adore Tesla, but think that any other smart person is a liar and a fake?
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: DonQuixote on February 04, 2016, 06:02:47 PM
I'm curious if anyone has been to one of the FE sites/forums to see if the same arguments, that tradosaurus uses are used by others and he is copying them?

I have. They are basically regurgitating from a list compiled in a book by Eric Dubay.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Flat-Earth-Conspiracy-Eric-Dubay/dp/1312627166

I read through about 150 pages of a thread on the subject on one of their websites, and watched a video posted there by one of their users standing by the bayside somewhere along the Gulf of Mexico, I believe, recording a freighter sailing over the horizon. There was a bit of reflective mirage that started to kick in as the boat sailed over the horizon, and they claimed this was due to a combination of vanishing point and some claptrap about "lines of convergence," which were, according to her, "lines where elements meet," As it sank farther and farther beyond the horizon, she continued to repeat that phrase, "just a line of convergence," from time to time like some sort of incantation.

It was, frankly, a little creepy.

You can't argue with them. You flat-out can't. They alternately just ignore you or respond with frothing, nigh-incoherent anger.

Quote from: Zakalwe
One thing I can't work out is why they seem to adore Tesla, but think that any other smart person is a liar and a fake?

I think that's because they attempt to shoehorn electricity, charge, and electromagnetism in general in as their answer to gravitational attraction.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Chew on February 04, 2016, 06:25:47 PM
Tesla invented free energy, doncha know, and the same PTB that are suppressing free energy are also suppressing the flat earth because they hate GOD.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: nomuse on February 04, 2016, 07:05:57 PM
I'm in no way trolling here, bknight, merely stating that if FEs want to believe in a flat earth, that has zero impact on me personally(well, other than me questioning their mental faculties), but they should have the courage to label it as such. I can believe that a vast, cosmic raccoon created the cosmos, but it doesn't make it true.

I am interested in your religion and would like to read a pamphlet.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: bknight on February 04, 2016, 07:10:45 PM
Tesla invented free energy, doncha know, and the same PTB that are suppressing free energy are also suppressing the flat earth because they hate GOD.
Something like the Oil/auto companies have suppressed carburetors that get 250 MPG?
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: raven on February 04, 2016, 07:12:22 PM
Quote from: Zakalwe
One thing I can't work out is why they seem to adore Tesla, but think that any other smart person is a liar and a fake?

I think that's because they attempt to shoehorn electricity, charge, and electromagnetism in general in as their answer to gravitational attraction.
Also, he's perceived as being a suppressed, persecuted genius. They might use Galileo, but I think the irony of that might be too much even for them.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: bknight on February 04, 2016, 07:17:38 PM

Its the same old bunkum, repeated ad naseum.

One thing I can't work out is why they seem to adore Tesla, but think that any other smart person is a liar and a fake?
I'm too much into stocks because I thought of the car company, not the individual, and didn't understand the post initially. :-[
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Sus_pilot on February 04, 2016, 07:43:38 PM


Its the same old bunkum, repeated ad naseum.

One thing I can't work out is why they seem to adore Tesla, but think that any other smart person is a liar and a fake?
I'm too much into stocks because I thought of the car company, not the individual, and didn't understand the post initially. :-[

Well Tesla can provide free energy with the cars.  Just build them all at the top of a mountain, and then use regenerative braking to get them to the buyers at the bottom.  All we have to do is get the parts up --

Oh.  Wait...
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: DonQuixote on February 04, 2016, 07:57:03 PM
I am interested in your religion and would like to read a pamphlet.

From the Book of Raccoon, Chapter 1, verse 1
In the beginning, the Raccoon made it* happen. It* was pretty good

*"It" is generally taken to mean the sequence of events that lead to you being here right now reading this.

From the Book of Raccoon, Chapter 10, verses 35-37
[35]Before thou eatest the food, thou shalt first wash thy paws; then shalt thou wash the food.
[36]Having now purified the food, thou shalt wash thy hands anew before thou partakest of the food.
[37]Let whosoever doeth this not be cast aside as the empty mussel shell.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: tradosaurus on February 04, 2016, 10:00:56 PM
By the by, Trad, I'm still waiting for you to explain why I have to tell my flight students that the wind generally shifts 30 degrees to the right as they climb. 

Added bonus questions - why, when we use paper sectional charts (aeronautical maps), do we tell our students the most accurate true courses are found near the center?  Why, if I take the US set and piece them together, do they not match perfectly at the edges?

Just for fun, using a very popular software used by pilots ranging from Sport Pilots to Airline Transport Pilots, here are two shots of a flight from Honolulu International to John F. Kennedy in New York (the numbers are for Cessna 182, BTW).  The blue dot is where I'm sitting in Omaha, NE.  This is the shortest path for the flight, ignoring obstacles and airspace.  Note that the first image is a nice straight line.  The second is of the flight patch with the software centered roughly on the equator in the middle of the flight path, showing a pretty good arc - this is what happens when you plot a straight line on a sphere and try to show it in two dimensions - change the center of projection and it HAS to curve.  BTW, yes I know most of the world is grayed out on this, but I'm not paying for the international data just to prove a self-evident point.

ETA:  Looking at the images, no I'm not 2,600 feet above sea level - more like 1,000.  Note the GPS accuracy - I'm sitting in my company's HQ building at lunch, and it's essentially a giant Faraday cage (cell phone reception drove us nuts the first couple of years in here), so I'm amazed an iPad without an external antenna is getting any GPS information at all.

ETA - ETA:  Whoops - the altitude is fairly accurate, after all.  I saw the 2,600 and wanted to pre-empt Tad - that's actually the minimum safe altitude (VFR) above the tallest object in the area.  Those are the broadcast towers at 72nd Street in Omaha, which are roughly 1,500 feet tall to send FM TV and radio signals as far as possible - tall because the Earth is a sphere.

No. the Antennas are used to broadcast over a flat earth as the British did in the early 20th century before the fiction of satellites were dreamed.

You should also check flight patterns over the world and wonder why the flight paths look unusually long but laid out on a flat earth map are direct routes?  For instance on a ball-Earth, Johannesburg, South Africa to Perth, Australia should be a straight shot over the Indian Ocean with convenient re-fueling possibilities on Mauritus or Madagascar. In actual practice, however, most Johannesburg to Perth flights curiously stop over either in Dubai, Hong Kong or Malaysia all of which make no sense
on the ball, but are completely understandable when mapped on a flat Earth.

Maybe you should instruct your flight student pilots to push the nose of the plane down so that they can follow the curve of the earth because how else could the plane stay level on a globe earth?  Oh yes, the magic of gravity that sees all and knows all.  lol
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: frenat on February 04, 2016, 10:23:34 PM
By the by, Trad, I'm still waiting for you to explain why I have to tell my flight students that the wind generally shifts 30 degrees to the right as they climb. 

Added bonus questions - why, when we use paper sectional charts (aeronautical maps), do we tell our students the most accurate true courses are found near the center?  Why, if I take the US set and piece them together, do they not match perfectly at the edges?

Just for fun, using a very popular software used by pilots ranging from Sport Pilots to Airline Transport Pilots, here are two shots of a flight from Honolulu International to John F. Kennedy in New York (the numbers are for Cessna 182, BTW).  The blue dot is where I'm sitting in Omaha, NE.  This is the shortest path for the flight, ignoring obstacles and airspace.  Note that the first image is a nice straight line.  The second is of the flight patch with the software centered roughly on the equator in the middle of the flight path, showing a pretty good arc - this is what happens when you plot a straight line on a sphere and try to show it in two dimensions - change the center of projection and it HAS to curve.  BTW, yes I know most of the world is grayed out on this, but I'm not paying for the international data just to prove a self-evident point.

ETA:  Looking at the images, no I'm not 2,600 feet above sea level - more like 1,000.  Note the GPS accuracy - I'm sitting in my company's HQ building at lunch, and it's essentially a giant Faraday cage (cell phone reception drove us nuts the first couple of years in here), so I'm amazed an iPad without an external antenna is getting any GPS information at all.

ETA - ETA:  Whoops - the altitude is fairly accurate, after all.  I saw the 2,600 and wanted to pre-empt Tad - that's actually the minimum safe altitude (VFR) above the tallest object in the area.  Those are the broadcast towers at 72nd Street in Omaha, which are roughly 1,500 feet tall to send FM TV and radio signals as far as possible - tall because the Earth is a sphere.

No. the Antennas are used to broadcast over a flat earth as the British did in the early 20th century before the fiction of satellites were dreamed.
That only works for long wavelengths like HF communications that bounce off the ionosphere.  Can't work for UHF.

You should also check flight patterns over the world and wonder why the flight paths look unusually long but laid out on a flat earth map are direct routes?  For instance on a ball-Earth, Johannesburg, South Africa to Perth, Australia should be a straight shot over the Indian Ocean with convenient re-fueling possibilities on Mauritus or Madagascar. In actual practice, however, most Johannesburg to Perth flights curiously stop over either in Dubai, Hong Kong or Malaysia all of which make no sense
on the ball, but are completely understandable when mapped on a flat Earth.
Why are you deliberately choosing flights that don't have direct routes?  Quite deceptive of you.  They choose those routes because of hub locations and because flights over a certain length over oceans require planes with 3 engines or more.  The majority of planes have 2 engines.

By the way, there are nonstop flights from Johannesburg to Australia but not to Perth, they go to Sydney and the flight is less than 12 hours.  Seems the Perth airport is not a hub.

Maybe you should instruct your flight student pilots to push the nose of the plane down so that they can follow the curve of the earth because how else could the plane stay level on a globe earth?  Oh yes, the magic of gravity that sees all and knows all.  lol
Why would they have to push the nose of the plane down when gravity works opposite of lift?  If the gravity vector changes then the plane self adjusts.  You've never flown a plane before, have you?
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Sus_pilot on February 04, 2016, 10:50:34 PM

By the by, Trad, I'm still waiting for you to explain why I have to tell my flight students that the wind generally shifts 30 degrees to the right as they climb. 

Added bonus questions - why, when we use paper sectional charts (aeronautical maps), do we tell our students the most accurate true courses are found near the center?  Why, if I take the US set and piece them together, do they not match perfectly at the edges?

Just for fun, using a very popular software used by pilots ranging from Sport Pilots to Airline Transport Pilots, here are two shots of a flight from Honolulu International to John F. Kennedy in New York (the numbers are for Cessna 182, BTW).  The blue dot is where I'm sitting in Omaha, NE.  This is the shortest path for the flight, ignoring obstacles and airspace.  Note that the first image is a nice straight line.  The second is of the flight patch with the software centered roughly on the equator in the middle of the flight path, showing a pretty good arc - this is what happens when you plot a straight line on a sphere and try to show it in two dimensions - change the center of projection and it HAS to curve.  BTW, yes I know most of the world is grayed out on this, but I'm not paying for the international data just to prove a self-evident point.

ETA:  Looking at the images, no I'm not 2,600 feet above sea level - more like 1,000.  Note the GPS accuracy - I'm sitting in my company's HQ building at lunch, and it's essentially a giant Faraday cage (cell phone reception drove us nuts the first couple of years in here), so I'm amazed an iPad without an external antenna is getting any GPS information at all.

ETA - ETA:  Whoops - the altitude is fairly accurate, after all.  I saw the 2,600 and wanted to pre-empt Tad - that's actually the minimum safe altitude (VFR) above the tallest object in the area.  Those are the broadcast towers at 72nd Street in Omaha, which are roughly 1,500 feet tall to send FM TV and radio signals as far as possible - tall because the Earth is a sphere.

No. the Antennas are used to broadcast over a flat earth as the British did in the early 20th century before the fiction of satellites were dreamed.

You should also check flight patterns over the world and wonder why the flight paths look unusually long but laid out on a flat earth map are direct routes?  For instance on a ball-Earth, Johannesburg, South Africa to Perth, Australia should be a straight shot over the Indian Ocean with convenient re-fueling possibilities on Mauritus or Madagascar. In actual practice, however, most Johannesburg to Perth flights curiously stop over either in Dubai, Hong Kong or Malaysia all of which make no sense
on the ball, but are completely understandable when mapped on a flat Earth.

Maybe you should instruct your flight student pilots to push the nose of the plane down so that they can follow the curve of the earth because how else could the plane stay level on a globe earth?  Oh yes, the magic of gravity that sees all and knows all.  lol

Frenat answered your response, but I'll keep going with it.  Not only are there very stringent requirements for ETOPS, airplanes, particularly large cabin class transports, are enormously expensive.  The name of the game is seat mile density.  You do what you can to keep every seat full for as many miles possible to reduce expenses on a seat mile basis, also known as making as much money as possible.  The route with the legs chosen was after a carrier did a lot of work to figure out where the markets are to keep the airplane full.

As for the height of the antennas - no, if the Earth were flat, an antenna wouldn't have to be very tall at all - it would just need enough wattage to overcome the inverse-square law for a reasonably economic receiver.

And, no, pushing the nose down would just cause the plane to descend and build up speed.  And yes, gravity does work here, because the aircraft, regardless of attitude, has its component of lift at right angles to the tangent of the curve of the Earth, whether in level flight, climbing, or descending.

Finally, why does the wind generally shift about 30 degrees to the right above 1,000 feet above ground level in the Northern Hemisphere?  You still haven't (can't) answer.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: LunarOrbit on February 04, 2016, 10:53:13 PM
Oooooo, the threat of being banned.   ;)

Absolutely. If you're just here to troll and anger people then I have no interest in enabling that. You've got to prove to me that you seriously believe the garbage you've been spewing.

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The reasons you gave for a globe earth universe is by faith not by facts.

I gave you examples of my personal observations of planets through my own telescope. How is that a matter of faith?

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1. Other planets being round could easily mean you are looking at a dinner plate instead of a sphere.  However even if other planets were spheres that doesn't dictate the earth is one.  There is no way to test your theory.

The other planets are very clearly spherical. Not a single one is a flat disc. That trend ought to tell you something.

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2.  So you see stars rotate around a center point (which actually proves an earth centered universe) and you conclude the earth is spinning?  That takes a lot of faith.

What is the alternative? That the whole entire universe rotates around us? And you think that is more plausible?

Quote
3. Venus transiting in front of the sun?  I hope you weren't blinded.   ;)  Again you are witnessing movement and concluding that the earth is orbiting the sun when it is just as viable to conclude that everything else is orbiting the earth.

Again, it's the fact that every other planet we have ever observed orbits a star, not the other way around. Show me one example of a star orbiting a flat disc-like planet and I'll give you a point.

By the way, here are some pictures I took while observing the transit of Venus:

(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o162/lunarorbit/20120605_161210_Android.jpg)
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o162/lunarorbit/20120605_154912_Android.jpg)

I also observed it directly through another telescope that had a protective solar filter.

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4. The flat earth map shows how the moon and sun would appear to "set" beyond the horizon because what is called the vanishing point.  Remember that the sun and moon are only about 4,000 miles in diameter.

What is the diameter of the "flat Earth"? How big is the Moon, and how far away is it? How does the Moon maintain it's position over the Earth?

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5. So how does your gravity know to apply just the right amount of force to keep amounts of water spinning at varying speeds (from 1,000 mph at the equator to 0 at the poles) in place?  Sounds like science fiction to me.  Also no where in nature do you observe water adhering to a spinning curved surface.  Water is always flung off the surface.

How does your flat Earth "know" how to apply just the right amount of constant acceleration so that objects don't get crushed or float away? You never explained how the Earth maintains this acceleration. Is it using rocket engines with infinite fuel, or magic?

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6.  The affects of objects falling to earth can be explained by the affect of buoyancy. What causes an object to float in water?

I hope you aren't a naval engineer.

Quote
7.  Well you are postulating on this with no evidence.  I'm saying the globe earth universe is ludicrous because of the crazy velocities and distances between stars (that can't be measured).

So you believe in a flat Earth that creates the effect of gravity from it's constant acceleration via magic, but you complain about "crazy velocities"? How fast must the Earth be traveling after all these years of acceleration?

By the way... can you explain the processes that formed the flat Earth? Is it natural, or artificially constructed? How do the seasons work? What clockworks control the movements of the Sun, Moon, planets, and stars in our sky? These are all questions that need to be answered if you want me to throw out all of my beliefs in a "round Earth".
Title: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Sus_pilot on February 04, 2016, 11:09:29 PM
LO - your post reminded me about how Stanley Kubrick and Douglas Trumbull had to render a flat painting of Jupiter to make it convincing - they used an 8x10 view camera on a 180 degree track and took an eight hour  [iirc] time exposure of the painting as the camera swung around it.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: sts60 on February 04, 2016, 11:30:41 PM
If gravity doesn't exist, why do things fall when you drop them?
Dangit, you beat me to asking this question.  ;D
For a degreed Engineer, he makes some really dumb observations.  Like Neil Baker, I'm ashamed to call him a fellow Engineer.
Why in the world would you call him a fellow engineer?
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Peter B on February 04, 2016, 11:56:15 PM
You should also check flight patterns over the world and wonder why the flight paths look unusually long but laid out on a flat earth map are direct routes?  For instance on a ball-Earth, Johannesburg, South Africa to Perth, Australia should be a straight shot over the Indian Ocean with convenient re-fueling possibilities on Mauritus or Madagascar. In actual practice, however, most Johannesburg to Perth flights curiously stop over either in Dubai, Hong Kong or Malaysia all of which make no sense on the ball, but are completely understandable when mapped on a flat Earth.

Do you bother to verify the statements in that "200 Proofs" book before you copy and paste them?

It took only a couple of minutes to find out that Qantas, Virgin Australia and South African Airways all fly direct from Johannesburg to either Perth or Sydney.

Plus, I note the statement you copied said "most Johannesburg to Perth flights stop over..." Most, not all. What do you think the other flights do?

Quote
Maybe you should instruct your flight student pilots to push the nose of the plane down so that they can follow the curve of the earth because how else could the plane stay level on a globe earth?  Oh yes, the magic of gravity that sees all and knows all.  lol

Seeing as you're so obsessed with gravity, please explain how it is that the Sun and Moon (and the planet things) stay suspended above the Earth while people and water stayed cemented to it.

Oh, and an explanation of the physics of the Sun would be good too.

I realise these may be tricky questions, seeing as neither is discussed in the "200 Proofs" document, so you're going to have to do some original research. But please have a go - you never know what you might find.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Peter B on February 05, 2016, 12:02:02 AM
One other thing:

Here is "Proof" 198 in its entirety:
Quote
198) Some say the idea of an inter-generational world-wide conspiracy to delude the masses sounds implausible or unrealistic, but these people need only familiarize themselves with the works and writings of Freemasons themselves, for example John Robison who exposed this in his 1798 book, “Proofs of a Conspiracy Against All the Religions and Governments of Europe Carried Out in the Secret Meetings of the Freemasons, Illuminati and Reading Societies.” Supreme Commander of the 33rd degree Albert Pike was quite forth-coming in several letters regarding the Masons ultimate goal of world domination, and in the Zionist “Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion” the exact plan by which this would be and has been carried out is completely disclosed.

Please note the bolded text.

Do you consider the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion to be a real document or a fake?
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Bryanpoprobson on February 05, 2016, 01:59:20 AM
When large swathes of Europe believed, because of religious dogma, that we lived in an Earth centred universe. One aspect of this, scientists of those ages had a real problem explaining and never did. Why is it that when observing Planets (not stars) do they show retrograde motion? This major FLAW in Earth centred theory was immediately ironed out, with the universal acceptance of a sun centred solar system.
So why do planets display retrograde motion?
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Chief on February 05, 2016, 02:09:35 AM
FYI.

My daughter and her boyfriend flew to Jo'burg direct from Perth with SAA in December.

Nothing else is worth discussing in this thread.

Tradosaurus just saddens me, indicative of the anti-science movement and dumbing down of the masses with pseudo...well, pseudo anything.

This is only going to get worse.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: ka9q on February 05, 2016, 02:50:00 AM
Well Tesla can provide free energy with the cars.
They do: a network of superchargers that provide up to 120 kW or so, depending on your battery's state of charge.

I still charge at home a lot, mainly because it's more convenient.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: ka9q on February 05, 2016, 02:53:15 AM
No. the Antennas are used to broadcast over a flat earth as the British did in the early 20th century before the fiction of satellites were dreamed.
Only the British had broadcast radio? Then there must be something very special about the Atlantic that changes those British accents into American ones before they're received here.

This gets better all the time.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: DonQuixote on February 05, 2016, 02:54:55 AM
Quote from: Chief
indicative of the anti-science movement . . .
I'm a bit of a Johnny-come-lately to the world of CTs, but something's been occurring to me as I've looked into their literature. I'm beginning to think there really is a conspiracy afoot, but it's not coming from the defenders of globe earth or the moon landing. Having given this no small amount of consideration over the past year or so, I keep coming back around to a couple of questions:


Well, I can honestly see no benefit whatsoever for the scientific community being the culprit. If observations had borne out in support of a flat earth and a domed sky, wouldn't our scientists be courting grant money for flip-side expedition attempts, dome research, and near-sun solar arrays? In short, why would science care?

However, there are groups in the world that have a vested interest in science being wrong, and those groups are fundamentalists of all creeds. Now don't misunderstand me - I have absolutely zero problem with people believing in whatever they want to believe(I myself was brought up Southern Baptist), but there are just some people who can't separate their faith from objective truth and will go to heroic, perhaps even nefarious, lengths to preserve their world views. Could that be the source of the dumbing down - groups who seek to poison the well of knowledge, so to speak?
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: ka9q on February 05, 2016, 03:17:23 AM
The other planets are very clearly spherical. Not a single one is a flat disc.
Roughly spherical. Jupiter spins so quickly (< 10 hr) that it is visibly flattened in a telescope. Just like the earth, only more so, demonstrating that the earth is just another planet following the same physical laws. It doesn't matter whether the object is solid, liquid, gas or plasma, if it's massive enough to have significant gravity, it will approximately attain the shape (an oblate spheroid) with a constant surface gravitational potential energy. (Note, not constant surface gravitational acceleration; that's the derivative of the potential function with respect to radius, i.e., how quickly the potential energy increases with altitude.) The exact shape of the earth's equipotential surface is called the geoid. It is approximately equal to sea level.

The earth is still well approximated by an oblate spheroid; its equatorial radius is about 22 km greater than its polar radius (Mt. Everest is only 8.8 km above sea level). The geoid deviates only about +/- 100 meters from this, mainly due to a non-homogeneous interior. But those deviations are still very important to those living on coastlines.

Bodies that turn more slowly are much closer to being perfectly spherical, e.g., Sol (our sun), Mercury, Venus and Luna (our moon).

 
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: bknight on February 05, 2016, 06:53:33 AM
If gravity doesn't exist, why do things fall when you drop them?
Dangit, you beat me to asking this question.  ;D
For a degreed Engineer, he makes some really dumb observations.  Like Neil Baker, I'm ashamed to call him a fellow Engineer.
Why in the world would you call him a fellow engineer?
I'll give him the benefit of doubt, although he makes some really novice observations and statements that likely proves he doesn't have a job as an engineer and what he attended classes for went up in smoke :)
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: sts60 on February 05, 2016, 08:04:32 AM
Sorry, no, not buying it.  I can't believe anyone with a Mech E degree from UT would be so utterly clueless.  I think tradosaurus is merely a troll.

Although your point about not practicing is valid.  Even having a degree doesn't make you a practitioner.  I have an undergrad degree in (space) physics and I'm no "Degreed Physicist".
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: bknight on February 05, 2016, 08:09:59 AM
Sorry, no, not buying it.  I can't believe anyone with a Mech E degree from UT would be so utterly clueless.  I think tradosaurus is merely a troll.

Although your point about not practicing is valid.  Even having a degree doesn't make you a practitioner.  I have an undergrad degree in (space) physics and I'm no "Degreed Physicist".
I respect your opinion concerning a degree, and I really support the thought about him being a troll, as I have stated in both of the threads.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Sus_pilot on February 05, 2016, 08:18:30 AM

Well Tesla can provide free energy with the cars.
They do: a network of superchargers that provide up to 120 kW or so, depending on your battery's state of charge.

I still charge at home a lot, mainly because it's more convenient.

I think you missed my feeble attempt at a joke...
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: nomuse on February 05, 2016, 09:30:57 AM
The other planets are very clearly spherical. Not a single one is a flat disc.
Roughly spherical. Jupiter spins so quickly (< 10 hr) that it is visibly flattened in a telescope. Just like the earth, only more so, demonstrating that the earth is just another planet following the same physical laws. It doesn't matter whether the object is solid, liquid, gas or plasma, if it's massive enough to have significant gravity, it will approximately attain the shape (an oblate spheroid) with a constant surface gravitational potential energy. (Note, not constant surface gravitational acceleration; that's the derivative of the potential function with respect to radius, i.e., how quickly the potential energy increases with altitude.) The exact shape of the earth's equipotential surface is called the geoid. It is approximately equal to sea level.

The earth is still well approximated by an oblate spheroid; its equatorial radius is about 22 km greater than its polar radius (Mt. Everest is only 8.8 km above sea level). The geoid deviates only about +/- 100 meters from this, mainly due to a non-homogeneous interior. But those deviations are still very important to those living on coastlines.

Bodies that turn more slowly are much closer to being perfectly spherical, e.g., Sol (our sun), Mercury, Venus and Luna (our moon).

Yah, worth mentioning. Even on my wee 2" Galileo-scope Jupiter is slightly oblate, AND has surface features. Which change from observation to observation. Almost as if the planet had more surface than it shows me at any specific moment!
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: LunarOrbit on February 05, 2016, 09:34:01 AM
I meant "spherical" in a general "I'm explaining it to a moron" kind of way. I didn't want to confuse the poor guy since these are clearly difficult concepts for him.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Zakalwe on February 05, 2016, 09:51:47 AM
The other planets are very clearly spherical. Not a single one is a flat disc.
Roughly spherical. Jupiter spins so quickly (< 10 hr) that it is visibly flattened in a telescope. Just like the earth, only more so, demonstrating that the earth is just another planet following the same physical laws. It doesn't matter whether the object is solid, liquid, gas or plasma, if it's massive enough to have significant gravity, it will approximately attain the shape (an oblate spheroid) with a constant surface gravitational potential energy. (Note, not constant surface gravitational acceleration; that's the derivative of the potential function with respect to radius, i.e., how quickly the potential energy increases with altitude.) The exact shape of the earth's equipotential surface is called the geoid. It is approximately equal to sea level.

The earth is still well approximated by an oblate spheroid; its equatorial radius is about 22 km greater than its polar radius (Mt. Everest is only 8.8 km above sea level). The geoid deviates only about +/- 100 meters from this, mainly due to a non-homogeneous interior. But those deviations are still very important to those living on coastlines.

Bodies that turn more slowly are much closer to being perfectly spherical, e.g., Sol (our sun), Mercury, Venus and Luna (our moon).

Yah, worth mentioning. Even on my wee 2" Galileo-scope Jupiter is slightly oblate, AND has surface features. Which change from observation to observation. Almost as if the planet had more surface than it shows me at any specific moment!

Heres an animation from world famous amateur astro-photgrapher Damian Peach:


Notice the slight darkening of the edge on the right hand side and the fore-shortening of the great Red Spot due to limb-foreshortening as the planet revolves. There is no known way to explain this is it was a disc.

And one of his Mars projects from 2014, showing a full rotation and a phase of the planet. Again, no way to explain this if it was a disc.


Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: tradosaurus on February 05, 2016, 11:01:33 AM
I'm glad I was able to entertain the NASA fan boys on here.  As I originally stated my goal was to prove that the globe earth is a religious cult that when questioned becomes extremely defensive and resorts to ridicule.

I never gave the flat earth a thought and was quite disgusted with the idea until about a year ago when I talked to a fellow engineer (fairly young at 26) who calmly walked me through his awakening to reality (the flat earth).

The first observation (true science) was realizing that the horizon is flat no matter how high you go and after taking a flight from Texas to Oregon I could plainly see that the horizon was flatter than a pancake.  Once I could observe that mathematically the globe earth was fiction it was easy to start grasping the other facts and logic of the flat earth.

Since much work has already been completed by others proving the flat earth I would point those of good will to download (for free) the book "200 reasons why the earth is not a spinning ball".  http://www.atlanteanconspiracy.com/2015/08/200-proofs-earth-is-not-spinning-ball.html (http://www.atlanteanconspiracy.com/2015/08/200-proofs-earth-is-not-spinning-ball.html)

Of course once a person realizes that the Flat Earth is a reality then the logical conclusion is that NASA is a pack of thieves and liars.

Enjoy!
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: bknight on February 05, 2016, 11:04:41 AM
I'm glad I was able to entertain the NASA fan boys on here.  As I originally stated my goal was to prove that the globe earth is a religious cult that when questioned becomes extremely defensive and resorts to ridicule.

I never gave the flat earth a thought and was quite disgusted with the idea until about a year ago when I talked to a fellow engineer (fairly young at 26) who calmly walked me through his awakening to reality (the flat earth).

The first observation (true science) was realizing that the horizon is flat no matter how high you go and after taking a flight from Texas to Oregon I could plainly see that the horizon was flatter than a pancake.  Once I could observe that mathematically the globe earth was fiction it was easy to start grasping the other facts and logic of the flat earth.

Since much work has already been completed by others proving the flat earth I would point those of good will to download (for free) the book "200 reasons why the earth is not a spinning ball".  http://www.atlanteanconspiracy.com/2015/08/200-proofs-earth-is-not-spinning-ball.html (http://www.atlanteanconspiracy.com/2015/08/200-proofs-earth-is-not-spinning-ball.html)

Of course once a person realizes that the Flat Earth is a reality then the logical conclusion is that NASA is a pack of thieves and liars.

Enjoy!
The blind leading the blind err make that ignorant
ETA
The height of a commercial flight ~35000' is not nearly high enough to see the curvature, you need to be at ~30-40 miles. Take a look at this launch  curvature seen around 3:30, reported height at 4:19 42 miles.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Zakalwe on February 05, 2016, 11:13:46 AM
I'm glad I was able to entertain the NASA fan boys on here.  As I originally stated my goal was to prove that the globe earth is a religious cult that when questioned becomes extremely defensive and resorts to ridicule.

I never gave the flat earth a thought and was quite disgusted with the idea until about a year ago when I talked to a fellow engineer (fairly young at 26) who calmly walked me through his awakening to reality (the flat earth).

The first observation (true science) was realizing that the horizon is flat no matter how high you go and after taking a flight from Texas to Oregon I could plainly see that the horizon was flatter than a pancake.  Once I could observe that mathematically the globe earth was fiction it was easy to start grasping the other facts and logic of the flat earth.

Since much work has already been completed by others proving the flat earth I would point those of good will to download (for free) the book "200 reasons why the earth is not a spinning ball".  http://www.atlanteanconspiracy.com/2015/08/200-proofs-earth-is-not-spinning-ball.html (http://www.atlanteanconspiracy.com/2015/08/200-proofs-earth-is-not-spinning-ball.html)

Of course once a person realizes that the Flat Earth is a reality then the logical conclusion is that NASA is a pack of thieves and liars.

Enjoy!

(http://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/29960847.jpg)

Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: tradosaurus on February 05, 2016, 11:22:09 AM
No. the Antennas are used to broadcast over a flat earth as the British did in the early 20th century before the fiction of satellites were dreamed.
Only the British had broadcast radio? Then there must be something very special about the Atlantic that changes those British accents into American ones before they're received here.

This gets better all the time.

Let me clarify.  It was actually Guglielmo Marconi, an Italian inventor and Electrical Engineer, who transmitted the first radio signal over the Atlantic Ocean (2200 miles) in 1901. 

The BBC actually was the first to begin national broadcasting of a radio program in 1922. 

So the point is that satellites are not needed to broadcast a signal long distances and on a flat earth this is how it is done.  Otherwise why are there still large antennas all over the world if there are supposedly 20,000+ satellites in orbit. 

Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Zakalwe on February 05, 2016, 11:25:03 AM
So the point is that satellites are not needed to broadcast a signal long distances and on a flat earth this is how it is done.  Otherwise why are there still large antennas all over the world if there are supposedly 20,000+ satellites in orbit.

A bit like asking why there still are bicycles in the world when there now are cars.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Cat Not Included on February 05, 2016, 11:32:40 AM
So tell us Tradasaurus, who all is in on this conspiracy to promote a flat earth? You don't need individual names, but how about a list of organizations?
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Chew on February 05, 2016, 11:40:02 AM
Once I could observe that mathematically the globe earth was fiction

Lol. You, do math? Hahaha. Yeah, I asked several times for your math and you had to ignore my requests because you didn't have to the faintest clue where to even start working the math. So don't feed us crap about your mathematical skills.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: bknight on February 05, 2016, 11:49:37 AM
Once I could observe that mathematically the globe earth was fiction

Lol. You, do math? Hahaha. Yeah, I asked several times for your math and you had to ignore my requests because you didn't have to the faintest clue where to even start working the math. So don't feed us crap about your mathematical skills.
Yes, and tradosaurus, I have asked twice this will make the third time, how does your FE work when viewing an oncoming ship.  The first part that becomes visible it is the very top and as the ship gets closer more and more of the ship becomes visible from the top down.  This would not be the case in a FE.  This observation was probably first described at least 800 years ago, way before NASA.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: gillianren on February 05, 2016, 11:53:28 AM
But the math doesn't make sense.  It kind of almost vaguely worked when people didn't know about the Southern Hemisphere and the scope of the planet, but the more you know about the actual way the Earth works, the less sense it makes.  Which I guess is why it's so appealing to people who aren't very educated?

Anyway, a lot of my basic questions remain unanswered, which is okay, because so do everyone else's.  The simple fact is, FE is a rabbithole of a belief.  Every question "answered" only leads to three more, and none of the answers make any sense.  Two of my favourite media figures, Michael Palin and Werner Herzog, have been to Antarctica and broadcast their journeys.  I don't think Werner made it to the Pole (I don't remember for sure and could be wrong), but Michael Palin sure did.  If the South Pole is fake, why would they let him do that?  And anyone who thinks Werner Herzog could be forced to lie doesn't know Werner Herzog very well.  He'll invent things for his own creative methodology (read: he's kind of nuts), but he's no one's puppet.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Apollo 957 on February 05, 2016, 12:20:58 PM
A bit like asking why there still are bicycles in the world when there now are cars.

Or why we're still breeding shire horses when we have tractors...
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Zakalwe on February 05, 2016, 12:21:53 PM
I'd love to see tradosaurus telling people like Alan Chambers that the world is flat. I've been lucky enough to meet this gentleman (Chambers) and the level of grit that has is something else.

http://www.militaryspeakers.co.uk/speakers/alan-chambers-mbe-frgs/

Chapman lead the first unsupported walk to the North Pole going against the flow of ice. He's been to the North geographic pole over 10 times, as well as trekking to the South Pole.
Of course, he's probably part of the great global conspiracy and the £4 million that he's raised for charity by risking his life in polar exploration was all just made up.




So, tradosaurus, is Alan Chapman a liar and a deceiver? Was his MBE an award for keeping schtum?
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Apollo 957 on February 05, 2016, 01:29:12 PM
So the point is that satellites are not needed to broadcast a signal long distances and on a flat earth this is how it is done.  Otherwise why are there still large antennas all over the world if there are supposedly 20,000+ satellites in orbit.

... and more all the time. Here's a list of forthcoming launches. Do you think the owners of this website are just making this stuff up?

https://spaceflightnow.com/launch-schedule/

This company provides a tracking service for fleet operaters, and they claim to do this via satellite. That admits two or three possibilities - they're actually doing what they say, they're doing something else to fake what they say they're doing, and fooling their clients, or their clients are 'in on it' too.

Any thoughts?

http://www.orbcomm.com/en/networks/satellite/orbcomm-og2
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Jason Thompson on February 05, 2016, 01:47:57 PM
As I originally stated my goal was to prove that the globe earth is a religious cult that when questioned becomes extremely defensive and resorts to ridicule.

In other words your goal was to provoke people. So you are a troll. OK, expect a ban any time now then.

Quote
I never gave the flat earth a thought and was quite disgusted with the idea until about a year ago

Bull. I thought for a while something seemed familiar about all this.

http://apollohoax.proboards.com/thread/1665/why-earth-center-universe
 (http://apollohoax.proboards.com/thread/1665/why-earth-center-universe)

Or do you really expect us to believe you thought it was a globe at the centre in 2007 and only recently converted to it being flat at the centre? You are a troll and a liar. Did you get bored in the intervening nine years or are you simply cycling through discussion boards for a laugh?
 
Quote
Since much work has already been completed by others proving the flat earth I would point those of good will to download (for free) the book "200 reasons why the earth is not a spinning ball".  http://www.atlanteanconspiracy.com/2015/08/200-proofs-earth-is-not-spinning-ball.html (http://www.atlanteanconspiracy.com/2015/08/200-proofs-earth-is-not-spinning-ball.html)

Ah, so business has been slow. Trying to drum up a bit more, are you?
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: DonQuixote on February 05, 2016, 01:50:01 PM
I'm glad I was able to entertain the NASA fan boys on here.  As I originally stated my goal was to prove that the globe earth is a religious cult that when questioned becomes extremely defensive and resorts to ridicule.

To be fair, those who invite ridicule are likely to be obliged, regardless of where on the wide, wide web they go.

As an intellectual exercise, I'd invite you to try role-playing on a Flat Earth forum sometime, and see how accommodating they are. Just show up and pose some of the same questions there that have been posed to you here. See how quickly they abandon civility and compare that to the reception you've received here. Remember - don't cave in! Don't budge one iota from your established position precisely as you've done here, and see how long it takes them to resort to name-calling and vulgarity.

Please feel free to share your experience.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: bknight on February 05, 2016, 01:51:54 PM
As I originally stated my goal was to prove that the globe earth is a religious cult that when questioned becomes extremely defensive and resorts to ridicule.

In other words your goal was to provoke people. So you are a troll. OK, expect a ban any time now then.

Quote
I never gave the flat earth a thought and was quite disgusted with the idea until about a year ago

Bull. I thought for a while something seemed familiar about all this.

http://apollohoax.proboards.com/thread/1665/why-earth-center-universe
 (http://apollohoax.proboards.com/thread/1665/why-earth-center-universe)

Or do you really expect us to believe you thought it was a globe at the centre in 2007 and only recently converted to it being flat at the centre? You are a troll and a liar. Did you get bored in the intervening nine years or are you simply cycling through discussion boards for a laugh?
 
Quote
Since much work has already been completed by others proving the flat earth I would point those of good will to download (for free) the book "200 reasons why the earth is not a spinning ball".  http://www.atlanteanconspiracy.com/2015/08/200-proofs-earth-is-not-spinning-ball.html (http://www.atlanteanconspiracy.com/2015/08/200-proofs-earth-is-not-spinning-ball.html)

Ah, so business has been slow. Trying to drum up a bit more, are you?
Nice Research, he is indeed a troll
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: smartcooky on February 05, 2016, 02:22:39 PM
Let me clarify.  It was actually Guglielmo Marconi, an Italian inventor and Electrical Engineer, who transmitted the first radio signal over the Atlantic Ocean (2200 miles) in 1901. 

The BBC actually was the first to begin national broadcasting of a radio program in 1922. 

So the point is that satellites are not needed to broadcast a signal long distances and on a flat earth this is how it is done.  Otherwise why are there still large antennas all over the world if there are supposedly 20,000+ satellites in orbit. 

This one statement shows just how ignorant you are of radio. Marconi used very low frequencies for his transatlantic broadcasts, way down in the ELF range, about 45 kHz. They were little more than spark transmitters, for which the broadcast frequency is determined by the resonant mean frequency of the antenna system. His early experiments were conducted in the vhf/uhf range, (60 to 600 Mhz). This has a wavelength (and therefore a full wave antenna length) of a half to one metre. He found that the range of his broadcasts were only line of sight because at that frequency, the signal cannot travel around the curvature of the earth.

By the time he established communications across the Channel in 1899 he would have been using lower frequencies (and therefore longer antenna systems, but in order to try transatlantic communications, the required aerial length  had to be increased dramatically. His initial station at Table Head, Glace Bay, Nova Scotia was a massive structure comprising 400 wires suspended from four 61 metre wooden towers, with down leads brought together in an inverted cone at the point of entry into the building. The frequency was 182 kHz. By 1904 his English antenna had become a pyramidal monopole with umbrella wires, and the frequency was 70 kHz. In 1905 his Canadian antenna, moved to Marconi Towers, Glace Bay was a capacitive top-loaded structure, with 200 horizontal radial wires each 305 metres long, at a height of 55 metres, and the frequency was 82 kHz.   By late in 1907 he was using a frequency of 45 kHz - that translated to a full wavelength of over 6½ kilometres!!!

The whole point if this is to make you realise that VHF communications such as terrestrial TV and FM Radio does not work over long distances. If you tune into your FM Radio and identify the location of every station you can hear, they will all be within just a few kilometres of where you are located. There are over 44,000 FM stations world wide, but only around 100 channels in the FM band, so on average each channel is shared by around 440 stations If the earth were flat, your FM radio would pick up every radio station in the world - the band would be a cacophony of unintelligible noise on every channel where there wasn't a station really close to you - the only way that FM band sharing works is because the curvature of the earth separates their signals.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: DonQuixote on February 05, 2016, 02:43:01 PM
The whole point if this is to make you realise that VHF communications such as terrestrial TV and FM Radio does not work over long distances. If you tune into your FM Radio and identify the location of every station you can hear, they will all be within just a few kilometres of where you are located. There are over 44,000 FM stations world wide, but only around 100 channels in the FM band, so on average each channel is shared by around 440 stations If the earth were flat, your FM radio would pick up every radio station in the world - the band would be a cacophony of unintelligible noise on every channel where there wasn't a station really close to you - the only way that FM band sharing works is because the curvature of the earth separates their signals.

Excellent information, and an insightful illustration of yet another way that a Flat Earth doesn't(pardon the pun) hold water.

In the same vein, I've seen them trying to say that since flights "vanish" over large bodies of water(most specifically in the southern hemisphere) that this is evidence that the pilots are "turning off the GPS" to hide their actual flight paths. I've tried to explain that the flight tracker sites from which they're getting their information rely on ground-based radar tracking stations to provide planes' current positions, and that it's the very curvature of the globe that they're denying that prevents real-time radar tracking, but it's all in vain.

At least until the real GPS tracking comes online. I can't wait to see what mental gymnastics FEs will use to explain that.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: frenat on February 05, 2016, 02:46:13 PM
The whole point if this is to make you realise that VHF communications such as terrestrial TV and FM Radio does not work over long distances. If you tune into your FM Radio and identify the location of every station you can hear, they will all be within just a few kilometres of where you are located. There are over 44,000 FM stations world wide, but only around 100 channels in the FM band, so on average each channel is shared by around 440 stations If the earth were flat, your FM radio would pick up every radio station in the world - the band would be a cacophony of unintelligible noise on every channel where there wasn't a station really close to you - the only way that FM band sharing works is because the curvature of the earth separates their signals.

Excellent information, and an insightful illustration of yet another way that a Flat Earth doesn't(pardon the pun) hold water.

In the same vein, I've seen them trying to say that since flights "vanish" over large bodies of water(most specifically in the southern hemisphere) that this is evidence that the pilots are "turning off the GPS" to hide their actual flight paths. I've tried to explain that the flight tracker sites from which they're getting their information rely on ground-based radar tracking stations to provide planes' current positions, and that it's the very curvature of the globe that they're denying that prevents real-time radar tracking, but it's all in vain.

At least until the real GPS tracking comes online. I can't wait to see what mental gymnastics FEs will use to explain that.

Yeah, a common misconception, especially among that crowd, about GPS is that it is two way.  They don't realize that a GPS no matter it is is handheld, in your car or in a plane is one way.  It receives only.  For somebody else to have your location they have to be receiving information either via radar, radio, or some other satellite link.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: DonQuixote on February 05, 2016, 03:01:44 PM
Yeah, a common misconception, especially among that crowd, about GPS is that it is two way.  They don't realize that a GPS no matter it is is handheld, in your car or in a plane is one way.  It receives only.  For somebody else to have your location they have to be receiving information either via radar, radio, or some other satellite link.

Is that why it's a ground-side fix to track flights via GPS? I was curious about that and was wondering if perhaps it was set up specifically as it was to preserve the privacy of those making use of GPS.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: tradosaurus on February 05, 2016, 03:23:29 PM
So tell us Tradasaurus, who all is in on this conspiracy to promote a flat earth? You don't need individual names, but how about a list of organizations?

The question should be Who is on this conspiracy to keep the flat earth universe from being taught? And why?

If you can control people by what they learn then you can control what they believe.  Which is why events such as 9/11 were so readily accepted as being done by terrorists.

If you want to learn real science read or watch, Dr. Judy D. Wood, who is a former professor of mechanical engineering with research interests in experimental stress analysis, structural mechanics, optical methods, deformation analysis, and the materials characterization of biomaterials and composite materials.

She talks about energy technology that was used to bring down the twin towers.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Allan F on February 05, 2016, 03:25:40 PM
So tell us Tradasaurus, who all is in on this conspiracy to promote a flat earth? You don't need individual names, but how about a list of organizations?

The question should be Who is on this conspiracy to keep the flat earth universe from being taught? And why?

If you can control people by what they learn then you can control what they believe.  Which is why events such as 9/11 were so readily accepted as being done by terrorists.

If you want to learn real science read or watch, Dr. Judy D. Wood, who is a former professor of mechanical engineering with research interests in experimental stress analysis, structural mechanics, optical methods, deformation analysis, and the materials characterization of biomaterials and composite materials.

She talks about energy technology that was used to bring down the twin towers.

Have you ever encountered a conspiracy you didn't believe?

How about you answer the question?
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: DD Brock on February 05, 2016, 03:29:17 PM
The whole point if this is to make you realise that VHF communications such as terrestrial TV and FM Radio does not work over long distances. If you tune into your FM Radio and identify the location of every station you can hear, they will all be within just a few kilometres of where you are located. There are over 44,000 FM stations world wide, but only around 100 channels in the FM band, so on average each channel is shared by around 440 stations If the earth were flat, your FM radio would pick up every radio station in the world - the band would be a cacophony of unintelligible noise on every channel where there wasn't a station really close to you - the only way that FM band sharing works is because the curvature of the earth separates their signals.

Excellent information, and an insightful illustration of yet another way that a Flat Earth doesn't(pardon the pun) hold water.

In the same vein, I've seen them trying to say that since flights "vanish" over large bodies of water(most specifically in the southern hemisphere) that this is evidence that the pilots are "turning off the GPS" to hide their actual flight paths. I've tried to explain that the flight tracker sites from which they're getting their information rely on ground-based radar tracking stations to provide planes' current positions, and that it's the very curvature of the globe that they're denying that prevents real-time radar tracking, but it's all in vain.

At least until the real GPS tracking comes online. I can't wait to see what mental gymnastics FEs will use to explain that.

Yeah, a common misconception, especially among that crowd, about GPS is that it is two way.  They don't realize that a GPS no matter it is is handheld, in your car or in a plane is one way.  It receives only.  For somebody else to have your location they have to be receiving information either via radar, radio, or some other satellite link.

I honestly did not know that, though it never occurred to me to worry about it either way. Makes sense, though, why would a GPS need to transmit, right?
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: bknight on February 05, 2016, 03:33:12 PM
Hey troll why are you evading why a ship approaching only has the top visible and as it gets closer more of the ship is visible from the top down?
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: DD Brock on February 05, 2016, 03:43:44 PM
Hey troll why are you evading why a ship approaching only has the top visible and as it gets closer more of the ship is visible from the top down?

I second the challenge. Answer the question.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Jason Thompson on February 05, 2016, 03:59:22 PM
The twin towers are irrelevant, trad. You have been asked questions and refused to answer them. I have another: what causes a lunar eclispe in your flat earth model?

You have also been shown to be a liar by me. Will you address that or not?

Really we're just maring time until Lunar Orbit has time to come on and ban you since you admitted you are trolling anyway, but what the hell, it's a quiet night.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Peter B on February 05, 2016, 06:08:24 PM
I'm glad I was able to entertain the NASA fan boys on here.  As I originally stated my goal was to prove that the globe earth is a religious cult that when questioned becomes extremely defensive and resorts to ridicule.

I never gave the flat earth a thought and was quite disgusted with the idea until about a year ago when I talked to a fellow engineer (fairly young at 26) who calmly walked me through his awakening to reality (the flat earth).

You were disgusted? How could an idea like that disgust you? Amused contempt? Annoyed dismissal? Patient rebuttal? Any of those make sense. But disgust is too personal an emotion to make sense, at least to me.

Oh well. Perhaps that's why you took to it.

Quote
The first observation (true science) was realizing that the horizon is flat no matter how high you go and after taking a flight from Texas to Oregon I could plainly see that the horizon was flatter than a pancake.  Once I could observe that mathematically the globe earth was fiction it was easy to start grasping the other facts and logic of the flat earth.

Since much work has already been completed by others proving the flat earth I would point those of good will to download (for free) the book "200 reasons why the earth is not a spinning ball".  http://www.atlanteanconspiracy.com/2015/08/200-proofs-earth-is-not-spinning-ball.html (http://www.atlanteanconspiracy.com/2015/08/200-proofs-earth-is-not-spinning-ball.html)

Then please apply your maths to these two main issues:

1. Flight paths between Australia and Chile and between Australia and South Africa. You claim (via the "200 Proofs" book) that these flights travel via locations in the northern hemisphere, yet I and others have pointed out that there are direct flights between these countries which remain in the southern hemisphere. I've also pointed out that the direct flight from Sydney to Santiago takes less time than a direct flight from Sydney to Los Angeles which is, according to your map, barely half way on the journey from Sydney to Santiago. Please explain this contradiction.

2. Travel distances within Australia. According to your Flat Earth map, Australia is about four times wide (east-west) as it is tall (north-south). Globe-based maps show Australia as being about 50% wider than it is tall. When comparing travel distances EW and NS in Australia (for example, Sydney-Perth and Sydney-Brisbane), they match globe-based maps, not the FE map. Please explain this discrepancy.

ETA: I note, in passing, that both of these problems (and a couple of others) are set in the southern hemisphere, where FE map distortions are at their greatest. These sorts of things might not be noticed by people living in temperate northern latitudes who don't think much about their southern hemispherian cousins, but they're particularly noticeable to us.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: frenat on February 05, 2016, 06:10:32 PM
The whole point if this is to make you realise that VHF communications such as terrestrial TV and FM Radio does not work over long distances. If you tune into your FM Radio and identify the location of every station you can hear, they will all be within just a few kilometres of where you are located. There are over 44,000 FM stations world wide, but only around 100 channels in the FM band, so on average each channel is shared by around 440 stations If the earth were flat, your FM radio would pick up every radio station in the world - the band would be a cacophony of unintelligible noise on every channel where there wasn't a station really close to you - the only way that FM band sharing works is because the curvature of the earth separates their signals.

Excellent information, and an insightful illustration of yet another way that a Flat Earth doesn't(pardon the pun) hold water.

In the same vein, I've seen them trying to say that since flights "vanish" over large bodies of water(most specifically in the southern hemisphere) that this is evidence that the pilots are "turning off the GPS" to hide their actual flight paths. I've tried to explain that the flight tracker sites from which they're getting their information rely on ground-based radar tracking stations to provide planes' current positions, and that it's the very curvature of the globe that they're denying that prevents real-time radar tracking, but it's all in vain.

At least until the real GPS tracking comes online. I can't wait to see what mental gymnastics FEs will use to explain that.

Yeah, a common misconception, especially among that crowd, about GPS is that it is two way.  They don't realize that a GPS no matter it is is handheld, in your car or in a plane is one way.  It receives only.  For somebody else to have your location they have to be receiving information either via radar, radio, or some other satellite link.

I honestly did not know that, though it never occurred to me to worry about it either way. Makes sense, though, why would a GPS need to transmit, right?
Exactly.  That's why GPS receivers can be so small that they can be put into watches.  They ONLY receive.  And the satellites only have to transmit.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: frenat on February 05, 2016, 06:12:13 PM
So tell us Tradasaurus, who all is in on this conspiracy to promote a flat earth? You don't need individual names, but how about a list of organizations?

The question should be Who is on this conspiracy to keep the flat earth universe from being taught? And why?

If you can control people by what they learn then you can control what they believe.  Which is why events such as 9/11 were so readily accepted as being done by terrorists.

If you want to learn real science read or watch, Dr. Judy D. Wood, who is a former professor of mechanical engineering with research interests in experimental stress analysis, structural mechanics, optical methods, deformation analysis, and the materials characterization of biomaterials and composite materials.

She talks about energy technology that was used to bring down the twin towers.
Thank you for proving crank magnetism is a valid theory.  Judy Wood only proved she had no clue about the energy required or any of the relevant science.  She was almost as clueless as you.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Peter B on February 05, 2016, 06:16:29 PM
So tell us Tradasaurus, who all is in on this conspiracy to promote a flat earth? You don't need individual names, but how about a list of organizations?

The question should be Who is on this conspiracy to keep the flat earth universe from being taught? And why?

Let me guess. Based on the illustrations above "Proofs" 197 and 198, is it The Jews?

Quote
If you can control people by what they learn then you can control what they believe.  Which is why events such as 9/11 were so readily accepted as being done by terrorists.

If you want to learn real science read or watch, Dr. Judy D. Wood, who is a former professor of mechanical engineering with research interests in experimental stress analysis, structural mechanics, optical methods, deformation analysis, and the materials characterization of biomaterials and composite materials.

She talks about energy technology that was used to bring down the twin towers.

You mean the Judy Wood who is debunked here: https://mylespower.co.uk/2014/10/04/a-review-of-dr-judy-woods-book-where-did-the-towers-go/#prettyPhoto
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Cat Not Included on February 05, 2016, 06:20:05 PM
So tell us Tradasaurus, who all is in on this conspiracy to promote a flat earth? You don't need individual names, but how about a list of organizations?

The question should be Who is on this conspiracy to keep the flat earth universe from being taught? And why?

So, yeah...no answer from you then?

Quote
She talks about energy technology that was used to bring down the twin towers.
I'm vaguely familiar with the energy technology used to bring down the towers. It involves burning hydrocarbons to accelerate a large metal object weighing upward of 350 tons to several hundred miles per hour.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: nomuse on February 05, 2016, 07:25:26 PM

Heres an animation from world famous amateur astro-photgrapher Damian Peach:


Notice the slight darkening of the edge on the right hand side and the fore-shortening of the great Red Spot due to limb-foreshortening as the planet revolves. There is no known way to explain this is it was a disc.

And one of his Mars projects from 2014, showing a full rotation and a phase of the planet. Again, no way to explain this if it was a disc.



I was never able to see enough detail (I live in a massive conurbation with poor air quality to boot) to make out more than the GRS and a vaguely "mottled" look to Mars. I mean, I could see the ice cap, but not so I could actually watch it grow and retreat.

On the other hand, unless someone was really, really trying to fool people. the Moon is damn sure round. Especially as the lighting angle changes across all those craters. Maybe not quite as blindingly obvious to the naked eye (lunar anisotropy and all) but focus even a tiny 'scope on the terminator of a crescent moon.....
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Sus_pilot on February 05, 2016, 07:43:09 PM

So tell us Tradasaurus, who all is in on this conspiracy to promote a flat earth? You don't need individual names, but how about a list of organizations?

The question should be Who is on this conspiracy to keep the flat earth universe from being taught? And why?

If you can control people by what they learn then you can control what they believe.  Which is why events such as 9/11 were so readily accepted as being done by terrorists.

If you want to learn real science read or watch, Dr. Judy D. Wood, who is a former professor of mechanical engineering with research interests in experimental stress analysis, structural mechanics, optical methods, deformation analysis, and the materials characterization of biomaterials and composite materials.

She talks about energy technology that was used to bring down the twin towers.
Dr. Wood?  The Dr. Wood that was thoroughly trounced over at JREF for her complete lack of scientific method involving cigarette butts?  That Dr. Wood?

OK If that's your level of acceptance of science and engineering, no wonder you buy flat earth claptrap.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Sus_pilot on February 05, 2016, 07:46:40 PM

Hey troll why are you evading why a ship approaching only has the top visible and as it gets closer more of the ship is visible from the top down?

I second the challenge. Answer the question.

While you're at it, why does the wind shift to the right as you climb in the Northern Hemisphere?  I'm still waiting to read your explanation.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: gillianren on February 05, 2016, 07:53:09 PM
ETA: I note, in passing, that both of these problems (and a couple of others) are set in the southern hemisphere, where FE map distortions are at their greatest. These sorts of things might not be noticed by people living in temperate northern latitudes who don't think much about their southern hemispherian cousins, but they're particularly noticeable to us.

I noticed that myself.  I really do believe that there's no possible way flat Earth belief could have survived the Age of Exploration even leaving aside the whole "circumnavigation" thing.  The more time spent in the Southern Hemisphere, the less sense it makes.  And, I suppose, vice versa, if you're starting in the Southern Hemisphere.

Let me guess. Based on the illustrations above "Proofs" 197 and 198, is it The Jews?

[sidetrack] Snazzy effect!  [/sidetrack]
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Dalhousie on February 05, 2016, 08:03:04 PM

1. Flight paths between Australia and Chile and between Australia and South Africa. You claim (via the "200 Proofs" book) that these flights travel via locations in the northern hemisphere, yet I and others have pointed out that there are direct flights between these countries which remain in the southern hemisphere. I've also pointed out that the direct flight from Sydney to Santiago takes less time than a direct flight from Sydney to Los Angeles which is, according to your map, barely half way on the journey from Sydney to Santiago. Please explain this contradiction.

2. Travel distances within Australia. According to your Flat Earth map, Australia is about four times wide (east-west) as it is tall (north-south). Globe-based maps show Australia as being about 50% wider than it is tall. When comparing travel distances EW and NS in Australia (for example, Sydney-Perth and Sydney-Brisbane), they match globe-based maps, not the FE map. Please explain this discrepancy.

I have flown all those routes, or ones very similar..... (Sydney-LA, Santiago-Melbourne, Townsville-Perth, Sydney-Darwin).  No space-time dilation observed......
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: bknight on February 05, 2016, 08:04:31 PM
ETA: I note, in passing, that both of these problems (and a couple of others) are set in the southern hemisphere, where FE map distortions are at their greatest. These sorts of things might not be noticed by people living in temperate northern latitudes who don't think much about their southern hemispherian cousins, but they're particularly noticeable to us.

I noticed that myself.  I really do believe that there's no possible way flat Earth belief could have survived the Age of Exploration even leaving aside the whole "circumnavigation" thing.  The more time spent in the Southern Hemisphere, the less sense it makes.  And, I suppose, vice versa, if you're starting in the Southern Hemisphere.

Let me guess. Based on the illustrations above "Proofs" 197 and 198, is it The Jews?

[sidetrack] Snazzy effect!  [/sidetrack]
Other than our "friend" as his Looney Toons friends on YT and a few forums.  They always have to stand out as individuals as "real" critical thinkers.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Dalhousie on February 05, 2016, 08:11:35 PM

the Antennas are used to broadcast over a flat earth as the British did in the early 20th century before the fiction of satellites were dreamed.

LOL indeed.  The first artificial satellites were thought of in 1687 by Newton. The next description was by Rev Hale in 1869.  Quite a while before the 20th century!
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Count Zero on February 05, 2016, 09:54:59 PM
Let me guess. Based on the illustrations above "Proofs" 197 and 198, is it The Jews?
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: gillianren on February 05, 2016, 10:28:22 PM
Other than our "friend" as his Looney Toons friends on YT and a few forums.  They always have to stand out as individuals as "real" critical thinkers.

Yeah, I probably should have clarified.  It wouldn't survive among people objectively considering evidence.

Oh, and to avoid the distraction on the other thread, my version of the Godhead, too, is exemplified by the observable universe.  It is a divinity of great wonder, shaping what we see by rules we can process by paying attention.  Flat Earthers aren't paying attention.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: carpediem on February 05, 2016, 10:31:23 PM
If you want to learn real science read or watch, Dr. Judy D. Wood, who is a former professor of mechanical engineering with research interests in experimental stress analysis, structural mechanics, optical methods, deformation analysis, and the materials characterization of biomaterials and composite materials.
Is she a flat earther too?
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: HeadLikeARock on February 05, 2016, 10:48:21 PM
If you want to learn real science read or watch, Dr. Judy D. Wood, who is a former professor of mechanical engineering with research interests in experimental stress analysis, structural mechanics, optical methods, deformation analysis, and the materials characterization of biomaterials and composite materials.

She talks about energy technology that was used to bring down the twin towers.

Ah, Judy Wood. Dear Judy has an air of being perpetually bamboozled by simple solutions, and seems blind to the elephants in her living room.

Steel beams turning to dust in mid air? No, Judy. Concrete and drywall breaking up and creating dust. We've also got falling beam and struts suffering from mpeg motion artefaction. 

Spires turning to dust? No, Judy. Spires falling down, and some of the debris already on the spire being left behind. Not a space beam that has just melted all the steel in the building apart from this one column, until the guy in the satellite peers through his sniper-scope to survey the aftermath of his work and says "Shoot! Missed a column. Hang on... Pew pew! Yup, that got it".

Toasted cars showing odd patterns of burning? Just Google "burnt out cars" Judy for examples.

I've got more time for flat Earthers than Judy Wood supporters. At least flat Earthers know they're wrong and are just treating it as an intellectual debating exercise. Anyone falling for Judy Wood's garbage is firmly in the "so open-minded their brains have fallen out" brigade.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: DonQuixote on February 05, 2016, 10:48:43 PM
Oh, and to avoid the distraction on the other thread, my version of the Godhead, too, is exemplified by the observable universe.  It is a divinity of great wonder, shaping what we see by rules we can process by paying attention.  Flat Earthers aren't paying attention.

For me, the universe is basically a thought in the mind of the Godhead, perhaps even just one of an infinite series of them - all just "what if?"s in the mind of the Creator.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: smartcooky on February 05, 2016, 11:11:15 PM

the Antennas are used to broadcast over a flat earth as the British did in the early 20th century before the fiction of satellites were dreamed.

LOL indeed.  The first artificial satellites were thought of in 1687 by Newton. The next description was by Rev Hale in 1869.  Quite a while before the 20th century!

Not to mention Arthur C. Clarke's October 1945 article on communications satellites.....

http://lakdiva.org/clarke/1945ww/1945ww_305.jpg

... 12 years before Sputnik!
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: tradosaurus on February 06, 2016, 10:22:50 AM
If you want to learn real science read or watch, Dr. Judy D. Wood, who is a former professor of mechanical engineering with research interests in experimental stress analysis, structural mechanics, optical methods, deformation analysis, and the materials characterization of biomaterials and composite materials.

She talks about energy technology that was used to bring down the twin towers.

Ah, Judy Wood. Dear Judy has an air of being perpetually bamboozled by simple solutions, and seems blind to the elephants in her living room.

Steel beams turning to dust in mid air? No, Judy. Concrete and drywall breaking up and creating dust. We've also got falling beam and struts suffering from mpeg motion artefaction. 

Spires turning to dust? No, Judy. Spires falling down, and some of the debris already on the spire being left behind. Not a space beam that has just melted all the steel in the building apart from this one column, until the guy in the satellite peers through his sniper-scope to survey the aftermath of his work and says "Shoot! Missed a column. Hang on... Pew pew! Yup, that got it".

Toasted cars showing odd patterns of burning? Just Google "burnt out cars" Judy for examples.

I've got more time for flat Earthers than Judy Wood supporters. At least flat Earthers know they're wrong and are just treating it as an intellectual debating exercise. Anyone falling for Judy Wood's garbage is firmly in the "so open-minded their brains have fallen out" brigade.

You mean you are not impressed with Dr. Judy's credentials like you are impressed with the credentials of nasa scientists and stephen hawkings? 

Your blind defense of the globe earth and refusal to see reality is more proof that the globe earth is a religion with gravity as its god.   If the powers that be can brainwash people into thinking the globe earth is real they can brainwash people to believe 9/11 was committed by a bunch of ignorant goat herders. 
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: bknight on February 06, 2016, 10:34:26 AM
Trad, you still haven't answered my question,

http://www.apollohoax.net/forum/index.php?topic=1067.msg36967#msg36967

Edit: Spelling
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: raven on February 06, 2016, 10:39:57 AM
Your blind defense of the globe earth and refusal to see reality is more proof that the globe earth is a religion with gravity as its god.   If the powers that be can brainwash people into thinking the globe earth is real they can brainwash people to believe 9/11 was committed by a bunch of ignorant goat herders.
Which you have yet to give any motive for beyond vague hand waving about 'power and money' with no explanation how creating a globe Earth delusion does that.
The Apollo hoax conspiracy theory has a better motive, show up the Soviets, though it is still discredited by the fact that, if the US cared enough to hoax, the USSR would care enough to reveal the hoax, and that going would fulfil the same goals with far less risk of political suicide.
It doesn't take a lot of  knowledge to learn to fly a plane well enough to crash it into something (just ask the late Imperial Japanese air force) and killing people with knives in close quarters is not exactly rocket science.
You are just being a racist little shit stain, which, given your other intellectual crimes, is hardly surprising.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Allan F on February 06, 2016, 10:53:49 AM

Your blind defense of the globe earth and refusal to see reality is more proof that the globe earth is a religion with gravity as its god.   If the powers that be can brainwash people into thinking the globe earth is real they can brainwash people to believe 9/11 was committed by a bunch of ignorant goat herders.

A bunch of ignorant goat herders with pilots licences and (for some) advanced degrees.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: DD Brock on February 06, 2016, 10:57:57 AM

Your blind defense of the globe earth and refusal to see reality is more proof that the globe earth is a religion with gravity as its god.   If the powers that be can brainwash people into thinking the globe earth is real they can brainwash people to believe 9/11 was committed by a bunch of ignorant goat herders.

A bunch of ignorant goat herders with pilots licences and (for some) advanced degrees.

A bunch of ignorant goat herders with pilots licences and (for some) advanced degrees and a willingness to kill and die for their fanatical beliefs.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: tradosaurus on February 06, 2016, 11:05:01 AM

Your blind defense of the globe earth and refusal to see reality is more proof that the globe earth is a religion with gravity as its god.   If the powers that be can brainwash people into thinking the globe earth is real they can brainwash people to believe 9/11 was committed by a bunch of ignorant goat herders.

A bunch of ignorant goat herders with pilots licences and (for some) advanced degrees.

A bunch of ignorant goat herders with pilots licences and (for some) advanced degrees and a willingness to kill and die for their fanatical beliefs.
I don't want to get to far off the flat earth thread but in this case you should do a search on experienced pilots who used a flight simulator to try to replicate flying into the twin towers.  Only one was able to do it and it took him a few tries.   The goat herders training records from several U.S. flight schools indicate that they were marginal pilots, at best, even in single-engine airplanes.    9/11 is just one of the many manipulations the gov't has been creating to control peoples belief system.  nasa is just another extension.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: frenat on February 06, 2016, 11:07:37 AM
So now you're trying to claim that experienced pilots couldn't line up with something wider than a runway?  And you believe that?  Really?   LOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Allan F on February 06, 2016, 11:15:42 AM

Your blind defense of the globe earth and refusal to see reality is more proof that the globe earth is a religion with gravity as its god.   If the powers that be can brainwash people into thinking the globe earth is real they can brainwash people to believe 9/11 was committed by a bunch of ignorant goat herders.

A bunch of ignorant goat herders with pilots licences and (for some) advanced degrees.

A bunch of ignorant goat herders with pilots licences and (for some) advanced degrees and a willingness to kill and die for their fanatical beliefs.
I don't want to get to far off the flat earth thread but in this case you should do a search on experienced pilots who used a flight simulator to try to replicate flying into the twin towers.  Only one was able to do it and it took him a few tries.   The goat herders training records from several U.S. flight schools indicate that they were marginal pilots, at best, even in single-engine airplanes.    9/11 is just one of the many manipulations the gov't has been creating to control peoples belief system.  NASA is just another extension.

Yes, early in their training, some of the 911-pilots weren't very good. But they kept at it, motivated by their RELIGION, and eventually succeeded. And most of the piloting was done by the autopilot anyway.

Yes, some truther-pilots deny the flight characteristics of the aircrafts used - while other aren't so "sceptical".
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: DD Brock on February 06, 2016, 11:21:47 AM

Your blind defense of the globe earth and refusal to see reality is more proof that the globe earth is a religion with gravity as its god.   If the powers that be can brainwash people into thinking the globe earth is real they can brainwash people to believe 9/11 was committed by a bunch of ignorant goat herders.

A bunch of ignorant goat herders with pilots licences and (for some) advanced degrees.

A bunch of ignorant goat herders with pilots licences and (for some) advanced degrees and a willingness to kill and die for their fanatical beliefs.
I don't want to get to far off the flat earth thread but in this case you should do a search on experienced pilots who used a flight simulator to try to replicate flying into the twin towers.  Only one was able to do it and it took him a few tries.   The goat herders training records from several U.S. flight schools indicate that they were marginal pilots, at best, even in single-engine airplanes.    9/11 is just one of the many manipulations the gov't has been creating to control peoples belief system.  NASA is just another extension.

This doesn't even merit a response, not even the one you are getting with this post.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: ka9q on February 06, 2016, 11:53:52 AM
Let me clarify.  It was actually Guglielmo Marconi, an Italian inventor and Electrical Engineer, who transmitted the first radio signal over the Atlantic Ocean (2200 miles) in 1901. 
As a radio ham, I'm well aware of Marconi's accomplishments.
Quote
The BBC actually was the first to begin national broadcasting of a radio program in 1922. 
Maybe so, I'll take your word for this.
Quote
So the point is that satellites are not needed to broadcast a signal long distances and on a flat earth this is how it is done.  Otherwise why are there still large antennas all over the world if there are supposedly 20,000+ satellites in orbit.
Wrong. Any radio ham (such as myself) knows (and can easily demonstrate) that worldwide radio communications unassisted by satellites are only possible on frequencies below about 30 MHz that reflect off the ionosphere. Marconi's experiments, for example, were in the vicinity of 0.86 MHz (in the modern-day AM broadcast band.) Higher frequencies punch right through it into space. That includes the frequencies used by GPS (1575.24 MHz), Sirius/XM satellite radio (2350 MHz), and direct satellite TV broadcast (12,200-12,700 MHz).

Furthermore, ionospheric communications are unreliable, being affected by solar activity, and very limited in capacity because of their low frequencies. Real-time TV is impossible. Satellite transmissions are as reliable and solid as the satellites themselves.

Some radio hams also bounce signals off the moon, though it takes a lot of power and very large antennas by amateur standards. The round trip delay is very noticeable at about 3 seconds -- just what it was when NASA communicated with the Apollo astronauts on the moon. A few radio hams even received the Apollo transmissions directly from the moon. Imagine that, individuals verifying NASA's claims for themselves, with their own equipment. So much for having to take them on faith, eh?


Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: ka9q on February 06, 2016, 12:08:38 PM
Yeah, a common misconception, especially among that crowd, about GPS is that it is two way.  They don't realize that a GPS no matter it is is handheld, in your car or in a plane is one way.  It receives only.  For somebody else to have your location they have to be receiving information either via radar, radio, or some other satellite link.
Right. Remember that GPS was originally designed for the military, and they are still its primary user. Military users don't want to risk giving away their positions. Also, any positioning system that requires that the users transmit (e.g., aviation DME) is inherently limited in capacity. GPS has billions of users; there's no way to get that kind of capacity without a one-way system.

GPS satellites do nothing more than continuously broadcast the time and their own positions -- very accurately (time within a few nanoseconds and positions within 1-2 meters). The details are more complicated, but they're secondary to understanding the basic idea. A receiver records the time from four or more satellites, and knowing their positions and the speed of light, works out the position that causes all those times to coincide. You also get the time of day, very accurately (whether you need it or not).

If you know your altitude, e.g., if you're on the ocean, then you only need three satellites. Most receivers now use every satellite they can see to average out the errors and to spot any satellites that are transmitting bogus information (now pretty rare).

It really is that simple. If you accept the reality of satellites, of course. Otherwise you have a real problem explaining why it is so accurate and why it works everywhere on the globe (the "G" means "global").
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: raven on February 06, 2016, 12:23:17 PM
Not only does it use satellites, but they also must compensate for time dilation, or the timing signals would get hopelessly out of synch.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: ka9q on February 06, 2016, 12:25:29 PM
do a search on experienced pilots who used a flight simulator to try to replicate flying into the twin towers.  Only one was able to do it and it took him a few tries.
That's ridiculous.

Way back in the mid 1980s (long before 9/11) I happened to sit next to an off-duty People Express (remember them?) airline pilot who talked about his time on the training simulators. Because PE was based in Newark NJ, many of their training sessions simulated the New York City area. One day they had some extra time to kill after his formal tests, so for fun he flew his simulated 737 north, underneath the Verranzano Narrows Bridge, toward lower Manhattan. As he approached the WTC, he snap-rolled 90 degrees and successfully flew between the towers.

So yeah, I know at least one commercial pilot who didn't hit the towers in the simulator. But he was trying to avoid them because that was a lot harder, not to mention much more fun.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: ka9q on February 06, 2016, 12:30:55 PM
Not only does it use satellites, but they also must compensate for time dilation, or the timing signals would get hopelessly out of synch.
I don't think they'd actually get out of synch because GPS is a closed-loop system. It actually measures your positions relative to a set of very well surveyed ground monitor stations around the world. The observations of those stations are used to generate the ephemerides broadcast by each satellite that gives the satellite's precise position (again with respect to those stations) and the corrections to apply to its time transmissions. So if GPS didn't account for relativity, those time corrections would be noticeably biased but you'd still get the right answers. I think.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: raven on February 06, 2016, 12:36:09 PM
Not only does it use satellites, but they also must compensate for time dilation, or the timing signals would get hopelessly out of synch.
I don't think they'd actually get out of synch because GPS is a closed-loop system. It actually measures your positions relative to a set of very well surveyed ground monitor stations around the world. The observations of those stations are used to generate the ephemerides broadcast by each satellite that gives the satellite's precise position (again with respect to those stations) and the corrections to apply to its time transmissions. So if GPS didn't account for relativity, those time corrections would be noticeably biased but you'd still get the right answers. I think.
This (http://www.astronomy.ohio-state.edu/~pogge/Ast162/Unit5/gps.html) is what I've read, anyway. If it's 'lies to children'* taken too far, let me know.
*A model to aid learning and understanding that isn't actually accurate as such. Think of the 'solar system' esque model of the atom. Great when you're just learning about electrons, protons, and neutrons and their basic properties in grade school. Not at all what atoms are like.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: ka9q on February 06, 2016, 12:39:14 PM
I had an email conversation with a professor on this topic a few years ago. I can't remember the exact conclusion, but I seem to remember thinking that the system would still work.

The navigation messages are sent at only 50 bits per second, so obviously you want to use those bits as efficiently as possible. You therefore model everything you can so you can reserve those bits for the things you can't model, e.g., random atomic clock and satellite position variations.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: LunarOrbit on February 06, 2016, 12:50:57 PM
If the powers that be can brainwash people into thinking the globe earth is real they can brainwash people to believe 9/11 was committed by a bunch of ignorant goat herders. 

So you're a conspiracy theorist AND a racist. Why doesn't that surprise me.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: frenat on February 06, 2016, 01:02:42 PM
If the powers that be can brainwash people into thinking the globe earth is real they can brainwash people to believe 9/11 was committed by a bunch of ignorant goat herders. 

So you're a conspiracy theorist AND a racist. Why doesn't that surprise me.
Crank magnetism at its finest.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Northern Lurker on February 06, 2016, 01:09:02 PM

Your blind defense of the globe earth and refusal to see reality is more proof that the globe earth is a religion with gravity as its god.   If the powers that be can brainwash people into thinking the globe earth is real they can brainwash people to believe 9/11 was committed by a bunch of ignorant goat herders.

A bunch of ignorant goat herders with pilots licences and (for some) advanced degrees.

A bunch of ignorant goat herders with pilots licences and (for some) advanced degrees and a willingness to kill and die for their fanatical beliefs.

Before the 9/11 hijackings almost always ended landing on an airport and beginning of negotiations. During negotiations women and children would be released as sign of good will and the rest are exchanged in small groups for food and drink. So doing what hijackers told was safest bet.

During 9/11 passangers of UA 93 found out about flying into WTC and Pentagon and attacked hijackers. Plane crashed on a field without additional victims.

Post 9/11 passangers know obeying hijackers mean death. There has been several cases where drunk/mentally ill/panicked passangers have tried to open plane door and been jumped by other passangers. At least one case led to death by suffocation. Only successfull hijackings since then have been done by cockpit crew (ET 702, Germanwings 9525, possibly MH307).
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: ka9q on February 06, 2016, 01:09:26 PM
Crank magnetism at its finest.
It really is remarkable just how often that phenomenon holds, isn't it?
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: frenat on February 06, 2016, 01:13:48 PM
Crank magnetism at its finest.
It really is remarkable just how often that phenomenon holds, isn't it?

Yep.  It seems to point toward a certain type of personality.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: bknight on February 06, 2016, 01:18:17 PM

Before the 9/11 hijackings almost always ended landing on an airport and beginning of negotiations. During negotiations women and children would be released as sign of good will and the rest are exchanged in small groups for food and drink. So doing what hijackers told was safest bet.

During 9/11 passangers of UA 93 found out about flying into WTC and Pentagon and attacked hijackers. Plane crashed on a field without additional victims.

Post 9/11 passangers know obeying hijackers mean death. There has been several cases where drunk/mentally ill/panicked passangers have tried to open plane door and been jumped by other passangers. At least one case led to death by suffocation. Only successfull hijackings since then have been done by cockpit crew (ET 702, Germanwings 9525, possibly MH307).
This will be my only hijack of this thread, but I believe the passengers of UA 93 that fought back, knowing that they may surely die in the attack on those that had taken control of the flight are real heroes.  Sadly they died, but prevented further deaths in their sacrifice.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: DD Brock on February 06, 2016, 02:02:56 PM
Agreed on both counts. 9/11 changed so many things, it's a little startling to remember the world before.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: raven on February 06, 2016, 03:34:08 PM
Agreed on both counts. 9/11 changed so many things, it's a little startling to remember the world before.
It was the 21st century's Archduke Ferdinand.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: smartcooky on February 06, 2016, 04:21:02 PM
I don't want to get to far off the flat earth thread but in this case you should do a search on experienced pilots who used a flight simulator to try to replicate flying into the twin towers.  Only one was able to do it and it took him a few tries.

If a pilot can land a C-130 Hercules on a carrier (begins at 1:58)......




....where he has to put his aircraft on a precise (and moving) point just a few feet across, then it doesn't take much of a pilot to hit a stationary object 208ft wide and 1368 feet tall!! FFS, an airport runway is usually only 150 ft wide, and they are MUCH harder to hit than a skyscraper.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: HeadLikeARock on February 06, 2016, 05:14:24 PM
You mean you are not impressed with Dr. Judy's credentials like you are impressed with the credentials of NASA scientists and stephen hawkings?

She has impressive credentials. It's just her thought processes when it comes to analysing photos and videos that are clearly defunct. I gave three examples of where she fails in her analysis. No amount of letters after her name can undo evidencee.

Quote
Your blind defense of the globe earth and refusal to see reality is more proof that the globe earth is a religion with gravity as its god.   If the powers that be can brainwash people into thinking the globe earth is real they can brainwash people to believe 9/11 was committed by a bunch of ignorant goat herders.

It's not a blind defence, it's a defence based on evidence. The evidence supports the Earth being the same as other, observable heavenly bodies - spherical. There is a paucity of evidence for a flat earth, indeed it simply does not comport with the vast majority of the available evidence. Hence, it is a faithed-based position.

The flat-earth theory is actually quite interesting from a psychological perspective: from any other scientific angle, it stinks. I can provide better evidence that England never won the world cup in 1966.

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=113718

Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: DD Brock on February 06, 2016, 05:18:21 PM
I don't want to get to far off the flat earth thread but in this case you should do a search on experienced pilots who used a flight simulator to try to replicate flying into the twin towers.  Only one was able to do it and it took him a few tries.

If a pilot can land a C-130 Hercules on a carrier (begins at 1:58)......




....where he has to put his aircraft on a precise (and moving) point just a few feet across, then it doesn't take much of a pilot to hit a stationary object 208ft wide and 1368 feet tall!! FFS, an airport runway is usually only 150 ft wide, and they are MUCH harder to hit than a skyscraper.
.I was just watching that video yesterday. Amazing aircraft.




Agreed on both counts. 9/11 changed so many things, it's a little startling to remember the world before.
It was the 21st century's Archduke Ferdinand.

Excellent analogy.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: smartcooky on February 06, 2016, 07:13:40 PM
I was just watching that video yesterday. Amazing aircraft.

The Herky Bird is a great love of mine, I spent 15 years of my life involved with them in some form or another, from being a flight line erk, through a black box changer and second line maintenance engineer, to an NCO i/c Depot Level maintenance.

The C-130 is the DC-3 of my generation. They are probably the most versatile transport aircraft ever made... They were first flown in 1954 (that makes them a year older than me) and are still in production and still in service with many military and civilian organisations around the world. Its a huge testament to the designers that the the C-130 is still doing the jobs it was designed to do....how many other aircraft do you know of that have been in continuous production for over 60 years?

NOTE: Our Air Force have operated the C-130 since 1965, and in 2018, they will be replaced. The two frontrunners for replacing them are the A400M Airbus and C-130J Super Hercules!
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: bknight on February 06, 2016, 07:18:40 PM
I was just watching that video yesterday. Amazing aircraft.

The Herky Bird is a great love of mine, I spent 15 years of my life involved with them in some form or another, from being a flight line erk, through a black box changer and second line maintenance engineer, to an NCO i/c Depot Level maintenance.

The C-130 is the DC-3 of my generation. They are probably the most versatile transport aircraft ever made... They were first flown in 1954 (that makes them a year older than me) and are still in production and still in service with many military and civilian organisations around the world. Its a huge testament to the designers that the the C-130 is still doing the jobs it was designed to do....how many other aircraft do you know of that have been in continuous production for over 60 years?

NOTE: Our Air Force have operated the C-130 since 1965, and in 2018, they will be replaced. The two frontrunners for replacing them are the A400M Airbus and C-130J Super Hercules!
The B-52' s have been in service since 1955, a year later
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: smartcooky on February 06, 2016, 07:37:07 PM
I was just watching that video yesterday. Amazing aircraft.

The Herky Bird is a great love of mine, I spent 15 years of my life involved with them in some form or another, from being a flight line erk, through a black box changer and second line maintenance engineer, to an NCO i/c Depot Level maintenance.

The C-130 is the DC-3 of my generation. They are probably the most versatile transport aircraft ever made... They were first flown in 1954 (that makes them a year older than me) and are still in production and still in service with many military and civilian organisations around the world. Its a huge testament to the designers that the the C-130 is still doing the jobs it was designed to do....how many other aircraft do you know of that have been in continuous production for over 60 years?

NOTE: Our Air Force have operated the C-130 since 1965, and in 2018, they will be replaced. The two frontrunners for replacing them are the A400M Airbus and C-130J Super Hercules!
The B-52' s have been in service since 1955, a year later

Not still in production though...The last one was built in 1962
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: DD Brock on February 06, 2016, 08:10:45 PM
The C-130 is just one of those special machines that were designed with the stars perfectly aligned. Nothing else in the air has been able to do what they can do.

It may be our generation's DC-3, but I think it may have surpassed it in terms of pure functionality.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Peter B on February 06, 2016, 09:00:18 PM
The B-52' s have been in service since 1955, a year later
Not still in production though...The last one was built in 1962

So every B-52 airframe is more than 50 years old?

Which raises the question, how much of an aircraft gets changed out and replaced over the years?
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: bknight on February 06, 2016, 09:06:46 PM
The B-52' s have been in service since 1955, a year later
Not still in production though...The last one was built in 1962

So every B-52 airframe is more than 50 years old?

Which raises the question, how much of an aircraft gets changed out and replaced over the years?
Many were retired and the last variants were upgraded to prolong their flight life.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_B-52_Stratofortress
I knew a few pilots in the Viet Nam era who were not much older than their aircraft.  It still worked well even through Iraq operations.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: sts60 on February 06, 2016, 09:41:26 PM
Last I read, the Buff was planned to operate to around 2040.  A bomber that could theoretically be flown by a pilot and his son and his grandson and his great-granddaughter operationally.  The mind boggles.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: bknight on February 06, 2016, 10:06:51 PM
Last I read, the Buff was planned to operate to around 2040.  A bomber that could theoretically be flown by a pilot and his son and his grandson and his great-granddaughter operationally.  The mind boggles.
Yes until 2045, by th3 article I linked.
EDIT:  Changed comment.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: DD Brock on February 06, 2016, 11:55:36 PM
I read an article somewhere about a B-52 pilot who flew the same aircraft his father had flown when HE was a Buff pilot. I wish I could remember where I saw it, it might have been in an Air Force Association magazine.

On one hand it's amazing to consider those planes are still relevant, but it's also strange to think of how quickly aircraft design evolved to GET to the B-52 versus how long it now takes to get a new design in the air.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Cat Not Included on February 08, 2016, 12:10:28 PM
Yeah, a common misconception, especially among that crowd, about GPS is that it is two way.  They don't realize that a GPS no matter it is is handheld, in your car or in a plane is one way.  It receives only.  For somebody else to have your location they have to be receiving information either via radar, radio, or some other satellite link.
So does this mean that all those time in detective shows when they track someone by the GPS in their cell phone are full of it? Or is that something else?
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: frenat on February 08, 2016, 12:16:10 PM
Yeah, a common misconception, especially among that crowd, about GPS is that it is two way.  They don't realize that a GPS no matter it is is handheld, in your car or in a plane is one way.  It receives only.  For somebody else to have your location they have to be receiving information either via radar, radio, or some other satellite link.
So does this mean that all those time in detective shows when they track someone by the GPS in their cell phone are full of it? Or is that something else?
if the phone is on then they can send a signal to the phone and find out what towers it is interacting with and get a general location from that.  They may even be able to get the phone to reply back with a gps location if gps is on but they are still contacting the phone through the cell network.  If the phone is off they get nothing.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Zakalwe on February 08, 2016, 01:15:39 PM
Yeah, a common misconception, especially among that crowd, about GPS is that it is two way.  They don't realize that a GPS no matter it is is handheld, in your car or in a plane is one way.  It receives only.  For somebody else to have your location they have to be receiving information either via radar, radio, or some other satellite link.
So does this mean that all those time in detective shows when they track someone by the GPS in their cell phone are full of it? Or is that something else?

The cell will record which phones it serves. By triangulation the info from  different cells you can get a rough fix on a SIM card location.  I can't remember the accuracy....something like to about 300 metres comes to kind. It obviously depends on cell density and if the SIM card is moving or not (if it's moving then it will be handed off to different cells).
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: smartcooky on February 08, 2016, 01:26:54 PM
Yeah, a common misconception, especially among that crowd, about GPS is that it is two way.  They don't realize that a GPS no matter it is is handheld, in your car or in a plane is one way.  It receives only.  For somebody else to have your location they have to be receiving information either via radar, radio, or some other satellite link.
So does this mean that all those time in detective shows when they track someone by the GPS in their cell phone are full of it? Or is that something else?

In the USA at least, since 2001, federal legislation has required cellphone service providers to accurately identify and place phones on their network to within 100m (328 feet). This is mostly done using GPS. The phone identifies its location to within a few feet, then uses a background software app to report its location back to the cellphone service provider. As a result, the police can track a GPS phone precisely to its location, not by directly accessing the phone's GPS transmissions, but via the cell network and service provider.

I am pretty sure that this legislation, or something similar, is also in place in NZ, Australia and Canada.

NOTE: The background cellphone app mentioned above is not visible to the cellphone user, and in most modern phones, it cannot be turned off or disabled without turning the cellphone off. I have heard in some cases that it is possible to turn on the phone remotely, so the only way to truly prevent a phone broadcasting its GPS location is to turn it off and pull the battery out.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: bknight on February 08, 2016, 01:27:27 PM
Yeah, a common misconception, especially among that crowd, about GPS is that it is two way.  They don't realize that a GPS no matter it is is handheld, in your car or in a plane is one way.  It receives only.  For somebody else to have your location they have to be receiving information either via radar, radio, or some other satellite link.
So does this mean that all those time in detective shows when they track someone by the GPS in their cell phone are full of it? Or is that something else?

The cell will record which phones it serves. By triangulation the info from  different cells you can get a rough fix on a SIM card location.  I can't remember the accuracy....something like to about 300 metres comes to kind. It obviously depends on cell density and if the SIM card is moving or not (if it's moving then it will be handed off to different cells).
Yes, I was going to say something similar, but you beat me to it.
Title: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Sus_pilot on February 08, 2016, 07:19:04 PM
To me, it's amazing how accurate it can get.  I fly in the back of 737's a lot and, if I sit in the window seat and orient my iPad so the camera end is facing the window (I'm pretty sure that's where the antenna lives), an aviation app called ForeFlight often gets enough satellite coverage to display 5 meter accuracy and GPS altitude.

On the other hand, there was one time the geometry precluded my iPad from "seeing" the constellation while riding in a brand new 737-800 where the WiFi hadn't been initialized yet.  It was still broadcasting (that is, it connected, but they hadn't done whatever configuration needed to connect to SWA's severs), so my iPad thought it was parked on the ramp at Renton, WA, even though we were between Omaha and St. Louis at FL 310...
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: smartcooky on February 09, 2016, 03:59:01 AM
To me, it's amazing how accurate it can get.  I fly in the back of 737's a lot and, if I sit in the window seat and orient my iPad so the camera end is facing the window (I'm pretty sure that's where the antenna lives), an aviation app called ForeFlight often gets enough satellite coverage to display 5 meter accuracy and GPS altitude.

On the other hand, there was one time the geometry precluded my iPad from "seeing" the constellation while riding in a brand new 737-800 where the WiFi hadn't been initialized yet.  It was still broadcasting (that is, it connected, but they hadn't done whatever configuration needed to connect to SWA's severs), so my iPad thought it was parked on the ramp at Renton, WA, even though we were between Omaha and St. Louis at FL 310...

One of the things I use my cellphone for is measuring equestrian eventing cross-country courses. Typically, a course will be between 1.5 and 3km in length and consisting of 15 to 30 obstacles.

We used to do this with a measuring wheel, and the first time we tried wakling a track with a GPS phone, we took two wheels and two phones. Over an approximately 2.5km track, the measurement spread was only 6m... less than 0.25% variance. I was impressed.

However, what I found even more impressive was that the app I was using could record where I had walked, and then create a ".kml" file which, when transferred to a Windows computer with Google Earth installed would plot the track against Google Earth satellite view.

Here's a bit of fun for anyone who wants to try. This the .kml file from a cross country track our club ran in 2014....

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/98915197/ApolloHoax/Track-140914-132903.kml

If you have Google Earth installed, just click on it to download, then double click on the downloaded file. It should open Google Earth, and zoom you right in to Marchwood Park in Motueka (next to Motueka Airport) and show the track the kids rode.   
Title: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Sus_pilot on February 09, 2016, 07:19:42 AM
Just to add, when I fly myself, I use a Stratus in conjunction with my iPad.  It's a WiFi enabled external antenna that also picks up ADS-B, getting traffic and en route weather.  It advertises 1 meter accuracy, but I'm willing to bet it's better than that.

ETA:  Here's a link to a debrief tool I use with my students.  I removed the student's name and aircraft tail number for privacy.

http://www.cloudahoy.com/debrief/?key=dnk1FbHqRhipodY4
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: jfb on April 19, 2017, 01:37:39 PM
Apologies for the necro, but it's not worth starting a whole new thread for this.

Getting back to the geometry involved with a flat Earth, I have a question.  Assuming the typical FE model, with all the continents on one side of the disc centered on the North Pole and Antarctica making a ring around the edge, how is it that people in Australia see a completely different night sky than people in North America? 

I can see Polaris from NA, but I cannot see the Southern Cross.  Someone in AUS can see the Southern Cross, but cannot see Polaris.  There are a number of stars and contellations that are visible to one location but not the other. 

Geometrically, that simply isn't possible if all land masses are on the same side of the disc.  Depending on how far away you want to say the stars are, they'd appear at different heights above the horizon, but they would both have to be visible at the same time for all observers on the Earth's surface. 

But they aren't.  You cannot observe the Southern Cross from NA, Europe, or Asia.  You cannot observe Polaris from Australia, Antarctica, most of South America, and a good chunk of Africa.

Now, that's not proof that the Earth is (roughly) spherical, but it's an observation that the typical FE model cannot explain, whereas a spherical model can.  The FE model would have to be modified such that some land masses are on one side of the disc and other land masses are on the other side. 

Which doesn't work either, but for a different set of reasons. 
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: bknight on April 19, 2017, 02:11:58 PM
It is hard to debunk stupid.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: smartcooky on April 19, 2017, 04:01:57 PM
Apologies for the necro, but it's not worth starting a whole new thread for this.

Getting back to the geometry involved with a flat Earth, I have a question.  Assuming the typical FE model, with all the continents on one side of the disc centered on the North Pole and Antarctica making a ring around the edge, how is it that people in Australia see a completely different night sky than people in North America?

Flat Earthers would tell you that you can't see these stars because they are "out of range"...or somethong, whatever that means. Apparently, they they believe that the stars are not far away, they are close and not very bright, and if you are too far away from them, they aren't visible to you... go figure.

You cannot observe the Southern Cross from NA, Europe, or Asia.  You cannot observe Polaris from Australia, Antarctica, most of South America, and a good chunk of Africa.

Not true. You can see the Southern Cross in Hawaii, South Florida and Southern Texas and the Southern tip of the Baja Peninsula.

I have seen it standing upright like a cross above the horizon while standing outside the Keck observatory dome at Mauna Kea.

(http://twanight.org/newTWAN/photos/3001828.jpg)
Crux from Kīlauea volcano

You can also see it in Japan, both Koreas, Singapore, and most of Asia including Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Thailand, Sri Lanka and most of India.

Basically, you can see the whole Cross anywhere up to about 25° north latitude, just north of the Tropic of Cancer.....
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: jfb on April 19, 2017, 05:36:43 PM
You cannot observe the Southern Cross from NA, Europe, or Asia.  You cannot observe Polaris from Australia, Antarctica, most of South America, and a good chunk of Africa.

Not true. You can see the Southern Cross in Hawaii, South Florida and Southern Texas and the Southern tip of the Baja Peninsula.

I sit corrected.  Thanks.  For some reason I thought it was a lot closer to the south celestial pole.  Learn something new every day.

As for the FE "explanation" - oooo-kay.  Absolutely nothing to do with the fact that as you move further South, Polaris gets closer and closer to the horizon until it eventually falls below it. 
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: smartcooky on April 19, 2017, 11:08:31 PM
As for the FE "explanation" - oooo-kay.  Absolutely nothing to do with the fact that as you move further South, Polaris gets closer and closer to the horizon until it eventually falls below it.

Yep, I didn't say I agree with it.

It is almost understandable that a small number of people might believe in the JFK conspiracy (second gunman behind the stockade fence on The Grassy Knoll yada yada yada; even I was a believer at one time). Its also understandable that some people don't believe we went to the moon or that 9/11 was an inside job etc. These people were mostly born after the events, and never experienced them first hand. They do not have the technical nouse to understand that there aren't just mountains of documentary evidence to the contrary, their are whole ranges of mountains of evidence.

However, it takes very special kind of stupid to believe that the earth is flat in the face of evidence that is plain for anyone to see and so easy to check out. Anyone can test the Flat Earth theory for themselves with easy to do experiments

http://www.popsci.com.au/science/10-easy-ways-you-can-tell-for-yourself-that-the-earth-is-round,414182
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Geordie on April 19, 2017, 11:19:28 PM
However, it takes very special kind of stupid to believe that the earth is flat in the face of evidence that is plain for anyone to see and so easy to check out. Anyone can test the Flat Earth theory for themselves with easy to do experiments

http://www.popsci.com.au/science/10-easy-ways-you-can-tell-for-yourself-that-the-earth-is-round,414182

The X-Files sums it up the best: "I Want To Believe".
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: bknight on April 19, 2017, 11:28:23 PM
smartcookie, did you  drop an apple to see if it moved sideways? ::)  Being NZ is close to Aus.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Peter B on April 20, 2017, 12:07:24 PM
As an Australian, the thing that's first to nix the Flat Earth idea is the shape of Australia in Flat Earth maps - it's massively stretched east-west. The result is that journey times required by that map don't come close to matching what happens in reality.

Of course, most Flat Earth proponents live in the northern hemisphere, where continent shapes are far less distorted than poor old Australia is. So the problem of Australia's distortion on these maps doesn't really enter their heads.

Second is the business of flight times across the southern oceans of the world (which I addressed earlier in this thread) which again is an issue outside the span of attention of most Flat Earthers.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: bknight on April 20, 2017, 12:32:02 PM
While flying to Australia in Feb. The plane flew through sunset, a period of darkness, followed by sunrise.  With FE, this would not occur.
But I have stated you can't argue with stupid, worse than Apollo Hoaxers, IMO.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Abaddon on April 20, 2017, 05:27:20 PM
It is hard to debunk stupid.
True, but the FE crowd have a proposed explanation.

See, the light bends in unexpected ways giving rise to the illusion of curvature. I read a bit of it some time ago. I regretted that lost time which will never be recovered and I have no ambition to revisit that loon tank.

For me, it's the basic questions that are best. So Antarctica is a circle around all of this disc? Why can we not climb up this wall and peer over the edge?

Answer given: The US mans the ice wall to prevent anyone from doing so with a shoot on sight policy.

What the actual <bleep>?

Next question: Do you have evidence of this wild claim?

Answer given: Yes, but I can't show it to you.

What the actual <bleep>? again?

As far as I am concerned, FE loons fall into two groups...

There are those who hold it true for the sheer joy of the cut and thrust of a hot debate. For those, I wish them good luck. I don't care what you do in your spare time. Maybe that bakes their noodle, so be it.

The second group appear to be the genuine swivel eyed loon brigade. NASA has controlled everything. This group is outright bonkers.

Now, I would dismiss this out of hand as not worth the time of day, group one being engaged in a largely pointless intellectual exercise and group two being swivelled eyed loons. They can feed of each other until the cows come home to roost for all I care.

However, there exists a third group... the fence sitters. The one's who claim to be unsure and wont commit either way. They will chuck arguments in either direction, but they will not commit to either direction. The whole thing is a game.

To me, at this point it is simply amusing. Sure, I occasionally dip into the cesspit and throw a comment or three, but it is just cheap entertainment.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: smartcooky on April 20, 2017, 08:01:13 PM
Second is the business of flight times across the southern oceans of the world (which I addressed earlier in this thread) which again is an issue outside the span of attention of most Flat Earthers.

Not just flight times, but directions too.

The direct flight flight from Sydney to Johannesburg, South Africa (a flight I have made several times) passes very close to Antarctica....

(https://www.dropbox.com/s/nnsqykq7o5gbnxt/GlobeEarth-SYD-JHB.jpg?raw=1)

...however, in Flat Earth Loonyland, the flight would pass over China, Mongolia, Pakistan and the Saudi Arabian Peninsula (the red flight path)... 

(https://www.dropbox.com/s/icjysu05rizq6wr/FlatEarth-SYD-JHB.jpg?raw=1)

The fact that the aircraft turns south west after departing Kingsford Smith International Airport TMA and flies over Tasmania is a very big clue. If the airlines were all in a conspiracy to make flights look like they are on Globe Earth, which is one explanation I have heard (to use Abaddon's expression, "What the actual <bleep>?"), then the flight would have to follow the green flight path, adding about 40% to the flight time, so instead of the usual 14½ hours, the flight time would be about 20 hours... well beyond the longest flight duration of any commercial airliner.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Halcyon Dayz, FCD on April 21, 2017, 11:58:18 AM
For me, it's the basic questions that are best. So Antarctica is a circle around all of this disc? Why can we not climb up this wall and peer over the edge?

Answer given: The US mans the ice wall to prevent anyone from doing so with a shoot on sight policy.

What the actual <bleep>?
That ice wall would have to be 60,000+ km long.
So where would they get the manpower?
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: bknight on April 21, 2017, 12:44:04 PM
...
That ice wall would have to be 60,000+ km long.
So where would they get the manpower?
You are resorting to logic, that won't compute in the FE model.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Glom on April 21, 2017, 01:42:50 PM
This is a timely thread as a read The Ringworld Engineers and their galivanting around the maps of Known Space worlds.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: smartcooky on April 21, 2017, 04:27:30 PM
For me, it's the basic questions that are best. So Antarctica is a circle around all of this disc? Why can we not climb up this wall and peer over the edge?

Answer given: The US mans the ice wall to prevent anyone from doing so with a shoot on sight policy.

What the actual <bleep>?
That ice wall would have to be 60,000+ km long.
So where would they get the manpower?

A conservative estimate would be a minimum of four armed guards (two on two off) every 100m or so, in three, eight hour shifts. They cannot just be standing outside for eight hours, so they will need a decent sized guard house to live in for their tour of duty.

To cover 60,000 km, that is 600,000 guard houses and 7.2 million armed guards with 1.2 million of them on duty at any one time. And that doesn't even take into account the support staff and equipment to keep these men supplied, fed and watered, plus waste disposal, electrical power, guards going on leave and a raft of other considerations. If typical operational v support staff ratios (about 5:1) were applied, that is a huge army of about 40 million soldiers, several hundred thousand Antarctic-capable vehicles and several thousand helicopters. I haven't even begun to calculate the total cost of such an operation, but even just the wages and benefits using the only figures I could find ("As of 2010, a Congressional Budget Office report estimated that the average active duty soldier receives an average $99,000 per year in compensation that includes pay and benefits, with 60 percent of the total being non-cash compensation.") works out to a wages and benefits bill of 3.96 TRILLION US$ p.a. over six times the current US Military budget, and almost a quarter of the USA GDP!!!
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Peter B on April 21, 2017, 09:27:58 PM
Personally, if I was to guard such an establishment, I think I could cut down on the number of soldiers by using some sort of early warning system, and a means to transport soldiers from a smaller number of central barracks locations to wherever they were needed. That should be able to reduce the number of soldiers needed by ~90%, although it would in turn require a sophisticated (and weather-proof) transportation system (plus the radar system).

But it does bring to mind a slightly more obscure issue relating to the Age of Exploration: expeditions like those of Captain Cook's in the late 18th century sailed around the world at varying latitudes. If the world were flat, and each parallel of latitude was larger as you headed south, then those sailing ships must have been travelling at quite fantastic speeds as they circled the world in the southern latitudes.

I don't have the means to do it, but someone with access to Cook's journals should be able to plot the Endeavour's location every 24 hours and work out how far it must have travelled in each 24 hour period. I suspect that as the ship headed south after leaving Tahiti the distances required by FE geography would be beyond modern racing yachts, let alone a tub like the Endeavour.

In fact, this exercise might be even more interesting for his second voyage, given its proximity to Antarctica.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Glom on April 22, 2017, 03:41:03 AM
For me, it's the basic questions that are best. So Antarctica is a circle around all of this disc? Why can we not climb up this wall and peer over the edge?

Answer given: The US mans the ice wall to prevent anyone from doing so with a shoot on sight policy.

What the actual <bleep>?
That ice wall would have to be 60,000+ km long.
So where would they get the manpower?

A conservative estimate would be a minimum of four armed guards (two on two off) every 100m or so, in three, eight hour shifts. They cannot just be standing outside for eight hours, so they will need a decent sized guard house to live in for their tour of duty.

To cover 60,000 km, that is 600,000 guard houses and 7.2 million armed guards with 1.2 million of them on duty at any one time. And that doesn't even take into account the support staff and equipment to keep these men supplied, fed and watered, plus waste disposal, electrical power, guards going on leave and a raft of other considerations. If typical operational v support staff ratios (about 5:1) were applied, that is a huge army of about 40 million soldiers, several hundred thousand Antarctic-capable vehicles and several thousand helicopters. I haven't even begun to calculate the total cost of such an operation, but even just the wages and benefits using the only figures I could find ("As of 2010, a Congressional Budget Office report estimated that the average active duty soldier receives an average $99,000 per year in compensation that includes pay and benefits, with 60 percent of the total being non-cash compensation.") works out to a wages and benefits bill of 3.96 TRILLION US$ p.a. over six times the current US Military budget, and almost a quarter of the USA GDP!!!
That may ne true, but it's worth it to protect the secret because... er... it's important that people don't know for some reason.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Peter B on April 22, 2017, 06:05:58 AM
For me, it's the basic questions that are best. So Antarctica is a circle around all of this disc? Why can we not climb up this wall and peer over the edge?

Answer given: The US mans the ice wall to prevent anyone from doing so with a shoot on sight policy.

What the actual <bleep>?
That ice wall would have to be 60,000+ km long.
So where would they get the manpower?

A conservative estimate would be a minimum of four armed guards (two on two off) every 100m or so, in three, eight hour shifts. They cannot just be standing outside for eight hours, so they will need a decent sized guard house to live in for their tour of duty.

To cover 60,000 km, that is 600,000 guard houses and 7.2 million armed guards with 1.2 million of them on duty at any one time. And that doesn't even take into account the support staff and equipment to keep these men supplied, fed and watered, plus waste disposal, electrical power, guards going on leave and a raft of other considerations. If typical operational v support staff ratios (about 5:1) were applied, that is a huge army of about 40 million soldiers, several hundred thousand Antarctic-capable vehicles and several thousand helicopters. I haven't even begun to calculate the total cost of such an operation, but even just the wages and benefits using the only figures I could find ("As of 2010, a Congressional Budget Office report estimated that the average active duty soldier receives an average $99,000 per year in compensation that includes pay and benefits, with 60 percent of the total being non-cash compensation.") works out to a wages and benefits bill of 3.96 TRILLION US$ p.a. over six times the current US Military budget, and almost a quarter of the USA GDP!!!
That may ne true, but it's worth it to protect the secret because... er... it's important that people don't know for some reason.

Yep, and that's the illogic at the heart of the FE conspiracy: it's one of the most pointless conspiracies I can think of.

I mean, even though Tradosaurus endorsed the views of someone who was an anti-Semite, I still don't see the point - why exactly would The Jews want people to think a flat Earth was actually round?
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: smartcooky on April 22, 2017, 05:19:42 PM
Personally, if I was to guard such an establishment, I think I could cut down on the number of soldiers by using some sort of early warning system, and a means to transport soldiers from a smaller number of central barracks locations to wherever they were needed. That should be able to reduce the number of soldiers needed by ~90%, although it would in turn require a sophisticated (and weather-proof) transportation system (plus the radar system)

The original FE loony argument I read was that you cannot climb the ice wall because it is "patrolled by armed guards". No mention of early warning systems and radar.

Its this loonacy that I was addressing.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Peter B on April 22, 2017, 07:27:13 PM
Personally, if I was to guard such an establishment, I think I could cut down on the number of soldiers by using some sort of early warning system, and a means to transport soldiers from a smaller number of central barracks locations to wherever they were needed. That should be able to reduce the number of soldiers needed by ~90%, although it would in turn require a sophisticated (and weather-proof) transportation system (plus the radar system)

The original FE loony argument I read was that you cannot climb the ice wall because it is "patrolled by armed guards". No mention of early warning systems and radar.

Its this loonacy that I was addressing.

Ah. Good point.

I wonder, then, when this guard system was introduced? Seeing as explorers have been visiting Antarctica since the late 18th century, is this where superannuated members of the Continental Army were sent? Or de-mobbed Confederates?
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: smartcooky on April 23, 2017, 01:33:21 AM
Personally, if I was to guard such an establishment, I think I could cut down on the number of soldiers by using some sort of early warning system, and a means to transport soldiers from a smaller number of central barracks locations to wherever they were needed. That should be able to reduce the number of soldiers needed by ~90%, although it would in turn require a sophisticated (and weather-proof) transportation system (plus the radar system)

The original FE loony argument I read was that you cannot climb the ice wall because it is "patrolled by armed guards". No mention of early warning systems and radar.

Its this loonacy that I was addressing.

Ah. Good point.

I wonder, then, when this guard system was introduced? Seeing as explorers have been visiting Antarctica since the late 18th century, is this where superannuated members of the Continental Army were sent? Or de-mobbed Confederates?

You should try Googling "Ice Wall Guards"

(https://www.dropbox.com/s/9wtrg9q37nsy09x/Warning%20Stupid.jpg?dl=1)

Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Glom on April 24, 2017, 07:25:28 AM
For me, it's the basic questions that are best. So Antarctica is a circle around all of this disc? Why can we not climb up this wall and peer over the edge?

Answer given: The US mans the ice wall to prevent anyone from doing so with a shoot on sight policy.

What the actual <bleep>?
That ice wall would have to be 60,000+ km long.
So where would they get the manpower?

A conservative estimate would be a minimum of four armed guards (two on two off) every 100m or so, in three, eight hour shifts. They cannot just be standing outside for eight hours, so they will need a decent sized guard house to live in for their tour of duty.

To cover 60,000 km, that is 600,000 guard houses and 7.2 million armed guards with 1.2 million of them on duty at any one time. And that doesn't even take into account the support staff and equipment to keep these men supplied, fed and watered, plus waste disposal, electrical power, guards going on leave and a raft of other considerations. If typical operational v support staff ratios (about 5:1) were applied, that is a huge army of about 40 million soldiers, several hundred thousand Antarctic-capable vehicles and several thousand helicopters. I haven't even begun to calculate the total cost of such an operation, but even just the wages and benefits using the only figures I could find ("As of 2010, a Congressional Budget Office report estimated that the average active duty soldier receives an average $99,000 per year in compensation that includes pay and benefits, with 60 percent of the total being non-cash compensation.") works out to a wages and benefits bill of 3.96 TRILLION US$ p.a. over six times the current US Military budget, and almost a quarter of the USA GDP!!!
That may ne true, but it's worth it to protect the secret because... er... it's important that people don't know for some reason.

Yep, and that's the illogic at the heart of the FE conspiracy: it's one of the most pointless conspiracies I can think of.

I mean, even though Tradosaurus endorsed the views of someone who was an anti-Semite, I still don't see the point - why exactly would The Jews want people to think a flat Earth was actually round?
Isn't it obvious? The Jews are winning at dradle because the dradles are loaded. But if everyone thinks the Earth is round they can blame the strange behaviour of the dradle on the Coriolis effect.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: molesworth on April 28, 2017, 05:26:39 PM
Personally, if I was to guard such an establishment, I think I could cut down on the number of soldiers by using some sort of early warning system, and a means to transport soldiers from a smaller number of central barracks locations to wherever they were needed. That should be able to reduce the number of soldiers needed by ~90%, although it would in turn require a sophisticated (and weather-proof) transportation system (plus the radar system)

The original FE loony argument I read was that you cannot climb the ice wall because it is "patrolled by armed guards". No mention of early warning systems and radar.

Its this loonacy that I was addressing.

Ah. Good point.

I wonder, then, when this guard system was introduced? Seeing as explorers have been visiting Antarctica since the late 18th century, is this where superannuated members of the Continental Army were sent? Or de-mobbed Confederates?
Then there's Antarctic tourism.  A relatively modern development admittedly, but there are now thousands of ordinary people visiting every year, and none of them have reported any sightings of guard towers, armed personnel or the like.

I've been twice (and plan to go again) and even in Summer it's not the sort of terrain you could easily guard.  Of course most, if not all, the people who believe this sort of nonsense have no idea what it's like, apart from what they've seen on a few wildlife programmes on TV.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Geordie on April 28, 2017, 06:30:23 PM
C'mon. Occam's Razor dictates that the Hypnotoad is working double-time down - I mean, around there.

 (https://s19.postimg.org/a626cs5ub/0003971684_10.jpg)

Seriously though, I'm envious that you've been there at all, though I have been to Inuvik, NWT, which is 200 miles north of the arctic circle (the farthest north one can drive, in the summer that is,) at the solstice, and have seen the sun go around and around in circles. You can't tell what time it is, even if you're wearing a watch - there're no clues as to what time it might be (three a.m.? three p.m.? I can't tell...)
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Count Zero on April 28, 2017, 10:01:50 PM
It is hard to debunk stupid.
True, but the FE crowd have a proposed explanation.

See, the light bends in unexpected ways giving rise to the illusion of curvature...

Unexpected, but in a way that's totally consistent with what you'd see if you were standing on a sphere.  o.O
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: molesworth on April 30, 2017, 10:33:15 AM
Seriously though, I'm envious that you've been there at all, though I have been to Inuvik, NWT, which is 200 miles north of the arctic circle (the farthest north one can drive, in the summer that is,) at the solstice, and have seen the sun go around and around in circles. You can't tell what time it is, even if you're wearing a watch - there're no clues as to what time it might be (three a.m.? three p.m.? I can't tell...)
Another trip took me to Svalbard, and in the town of Longyearbyen there's a beautiful sundial, with a polar bear holding the gnomon, which has a 24 hour time scale :-)  (not my image below...)

(https://oliveole.files.wordpress.com/2015/08/1-002_fotosafari_020904.jpg)
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Everett on May 01, 2017, 09:33:06 AM
The flat earthers are idiots, are the earth is round, but one of their arguments did leave me with an honest question. How to artificial horizons in aircraft correct for gyro drift? (They do, obviously, but I'm wondering how.) I've flown (in flight simulator, admittedly) a lot of planes with very old (1930's -1950's) autopilots, and while gyro drift for the directional gyro is corrected using the knob next to it and cross checking it against the magnetic compass every 10 minutes or so, the artificial horizon is a 3 axis gyro, so I would guess that said know wouldn't work for the other two dimensions? Just something I'm wondering about.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: ka9q on May 01, 2017, 04:05:07 PM
That's actually a very good question. The artificial horizon is not a completely isolated gyro; it responds very slowly to gravity, which eventually restores it to a center position (wings level). In electrical engineering terms, the system is a high pass filter with a response zero at zero frequency that removes a constant (DC) term. This works because airplanes spend most of their time flying straight with wings level, turning for only short periods of time. This also works to adapt to the very slowly changing idea of "down" as you fly around the globe.

A true inertial navigation system, on the other hand, does keep an inertial reference in space as the earth rotates around it, so it does need to compensate for the earth's rotation and your movement around it. It takes a very stable platform to do this.

I've wanted to demonstrate the earth's rotation with a commonly available MEMS IMU (the kind now found in practically every smart phone, tablet computer and hobby drone) but the effect is right at the rated threshold of sensitivity of the gyro element.

These gyros produce a rate signal for each axis that you integrate to find actual orientation as a function of time. Static offsets and noise in the gyro causes the integrator output to drift without limit over time, so these devices also provide a magnetometer and an accelerometer to provide a long-term external reference for "north" and "down". The accelerometer is affected by actual accelerations as well as gravity, so its output has to be smoothed over time to take out short term movements to provide an accurate estimate of "down". All these sensor signals are combined in either a complementary filter or a Kalman filter to provide a best estimate of attitude and heading, and you can do even better by adding a GPS.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Everett on May 01, 2017, 09:57:57 PM
That's actually a very good question. The artificial horizon is not a completely isolated gyro; it responds very slowly to gravity, which eventually restores it to a center position (wings level). In electrical engineering terms, the system is a high pass filter with a response zero at zero frequency that removes a constant (DC) term. This works because airplanes spend most of their time flying straight with wings level, turning for only short periods of time. This also works to adapt to the very slowly changing idea of "down" as you fly around the globe.

Ah, so that's how it works. OK then. Most people don't seem to realize that autopilots predate computers that don't fill a room (or heck - computers AT ALL: Autopilots were invented in the 1930's, and as far as I'm aware, were in widespread commercial service by the time WWII started; All DC-3's (1935? give or take a year) came with them as standard equipment. (At least I "think" they did.) In 1949 Boeing was shipping aircraft from the factory with a 3 axis autopilot capable of making coordinated turns.

Quote
A true inertial navigation system, on the other hand, does keep an inertial reference in space as the earth rotates around it, so it does need to compensate for the earth's rotation and your movement around it. It takes a very stable platform to do this.

I've wanted to demonstrate the earth's rotation with a commonly available MEMS IMU (the kind now found in practically every smart phone, tablet computer and hobby drone) but the effect is right at the rated threshold of sensitivity of the gyro element.

These gyros produce a rate signal for each axis that you integrate to find actual orientation as a function of time. Static offsets and noise in the gyro causes the integrator output to drift without limit over time, so these devices also provide a magnetometer and an accelerometer to provide a long-term external reference for "north" and "down". The accelerometer is affected by actual accelerations as well as gravity, so its output has to be smoothed over time to take out short term movements to provide an accurate estimate of "down". All these sensor signals are combined in either a complementary filter or a Kalman filter to provide a best estimate of attitude and heading, and you can do even better by adding a GPS.

I'm pretty sure INS systems were widespread in airliner service by the 70's. Question - does an INS system require a digital computer, however primitive (such as the one Apollo used, with its core rope memory and all)? What a second, upon father thought - considering the dates - were INS systems developed for spaceflight in the first place? Then again, probably not, more likely missile guidance - I "think" the V2 rocket had what must of have the first one ever mass produced. So maybe, in a way. (Also not a very good one either, but they were inventing it for the first time, so I cut them some slack.)
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Everett on May 01, 2017, 10:04:38 PM
Since I missed the actual thread with tradosaurus...
--First off, I could have sworn that Apollo suits used, my IIRC, it was either 4.2, 4.3 or 4.6 PSI, it was one of those. I guess I must have been thinking of the shuttle program. (In fact, I think that's where I read it. Or it could have been somewhere talking about spacesuit design in general.)--

My mistake, the above was actually from another different thread. Still had the same reaction though.


Side note, I'm pretty sure he's deleting posts, since I see responses to ones that are missing when I read the page.
Yes, I delete part of posts that I am replying, to condense the entire reply.  Can you not just go back to the original post to read the entire part?   Does it change the fact that NASA is a bunch of liars and thieves and the universe is much smaller than we were brainwashed to believe?

Actually, I'll have to defend tradosaurus here on this one. I regularly quote only the relevant portions of posts I'm quoting, on many different forums. Normally not a problem, although I see how it could be here. Also, I regularly break up long posts I'm quoting into multiple relevant chunks, with my reply in in between. (See post above) (Other than the striked out part of course.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Everett on May 01, 2017, 10:11:49 PM
2. If I am wrong on the tunnel dimension please show me the true dimensions of the tunnel entrance to the command module.  My shoulders are 24 inches from end to end and with a "space" suit on it would be much larger so hopefully your dimensions will be at least 42" or bigger.
3. Here is a picture of the Command module. Pay attention to the dimensions and then imagine the 3 parachutes with a lot of cord and all the other equipment plus 3 men fitting in this small space for 6 days of travel.  According to NASA, 3 crew members spent 3 days to the moon and 3 days back to earth IN THE CM.   One of the videos where Neil Armstrong manipulated the camera to show a "ball earth" it shows the astronauts with plenty of room.  They should have been in the CM.  Now look at the picture.  Can you imagine being strapped to the chair with 2 guys with no room to stand up?  Also the parachutes were stored in the top of the CM so how was it stored so that the astronauts still had room to make it thru the access tunnel?  I think NASA's Hollywood department should have done a better job. 
(http://www.aulis.com/images_cm/CM-3.jpg)

One, if you have 24" shoulders, you must be a football (American, not rest of world) linebacker. Second, and this is pretty darned ironic, he asks "can you imagine all that fitting in there?, with a picture."

Reading his post and looking at the picture, and going by nothing else, I'd actually have to answer that "yes, I can in fact imagine it all fitting in there, looking at the picture you posted. Looks like it fits well. They also rather smartly put the non-habitable stuff in the corners of the CM where it would be nearly useless as habitable volume anyway, due to the resulting shape. Pretty good space utilization, actually. Judging by the size of the astronauts in the picture, looks liked in zero-G it would be mildly cramped, but perfectly adequate. "
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Everett on May 01, 2017, 11:07:54 PM
For another joke, his the post where his dismisses the picture of the satellite as 'CGI,' then provides a Hollywood picture of his own - I can almost guarantee that the object in the first photo exists. I'm not quite sure why, but the material surface properties - CGI just can't pull it off yet. (To be fair, it could easily be a studio prop (almost certainly full scale, a small model would look off) placed in front of a green screen, with CGI to remove the supports - that method could actually could to be used to make that picture with a true-to-life appearance.) The picture he posted as a rebuttal from some movie somewhere - I can almost guarantee it is CGI. Again, not sure quite what, but the surface properties - they're off in the way CGI is off. The quality CGI is capable of is often rather over estimated, it seems.

Also, his picture has the usual "stars in the background" mistake, they wouldn't be there on a real picture.
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: Geordie on May 01, 2017, 11:57:37 PM
That's actually a very good question. The artificial horizon is not a completely isolated gyro; it responds very slowly to gravity, which eventually restores it to a center position (wings level). In electrical engineering terms, the system is a high pass filter with a response zero at zero frequency that removes a constant (DC) term. This works because airplanes spend most of their time flying straight with wings level, turning for only short periods of time. This also works to adapt to the very slowly changing idea of "down" as you fly around the globe.

Ah, so that's how it works. OK then. Most people don't seem to realize that autopilots predate computers that don't fill a room (or heck - computers AT ALL: Autopilots were invented in the 1930's, and as far as I'm aware, were in widespread commercial service by the time WWII started; All DC-3's (1935? give or take a year) came with them as standard equipment. (At least I "think" they did.) In 1949 Boeing was shipping aircraft from the factory with a 3 axis autopilot capable of making coordinated turns.

Quote
A true inertial navigation system, on the other hand, does keep an inertial reference in space as the earth rotates around it, so it does need to compensate for the earth's rotation and your movement around it. It takes a very stable platform to do this.

I've wanted to demonstrate the earth's rotation with a commonly available MEMS IMU (the kind now found in practically every smart phone, tablet computer and hobby drone) but the effect is right at the rated threshold of sensitivity of the gyro element.

These gyros produce a rate signal for each axis that you integrate to find actual orientation as a function of time. Static offsets and noise in the gyro causes the integrator output to drift without limit over time, so these devices also provide a magnetometer and an accelerometer to provide a long-term external reference for "north" and "down". The accelerometer is affected by actual accelerations as well as gravity, so its output has to be smoothed over time to take out short term movements to provide an accurate estimate of "down". All these sensor signals are combined in either a complementary filter or a Kalman filter to provide a best estimate of attitude and heading, and you can do even better by adding a GPS.

I'm pretty sure INS systems were widespread in airliner service by the 70's. Question - does an INS system require a digital computer, however primitive (such as the one Apollo used, with its core rope memory and all)? What a second, upon father thought - considering the dates - were INS systems developed for spaceflight in the first place? Then again, probably not, more likely missile guidance - I "think" the V2 rocket had what must of have the first one ever mass produced. So maybe, in a way. (Also not a very good one either, but they were inventing it for the first time, so I cut them some slack.)

  Back in the seventies, this awesome and eccentric grade six teacher that I had told us about this guided missile system that used pigeons trained to peck at a bullseye which would move off-center when the missile started going off course. Detecting the off-center pecks, the guidance system would bring the missile back on course.
  Some years later I recounted this tale to a different adult who scoffed, sneered, and looked at me like I was some kind of conspiracy theorist.
  Well, it turns out that the internet has my back on that one:

  http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smithsonian-institution/bf-skinners-pigeon-guided-rocket-53443995/

  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Pigeon

  Thanks, Mr. Miskelly, wherever you are. :)
Title: Re: A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus
Post by: gillianren on May 02, 2017, 05:40:38 PM
Actually, I'll have to defend tradosaurus here on this one. I regularly quote only the relevant portions of posts I'm quoting, on many different forums. Normally not a problem, although I see how it could be here. Also, I regularly break up long posts I'm quoting into multiple relevant chunks, with my reply in in between. (See post above) (Other than the striked out part of course.

But that's the opposite of what I was seeing.  I'd see people quote posts in response, but I wouldn't see the post itself when I read the page.