Author Topic: Is the Scientific Process, Standards of Proof ignored by NASA Supporters?  (Read 228703 times)

Offline Humots

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Re: Is the Scientific Process, Standards of Proof ignored by NASA Supporters?
« Reply #345 on: February 03, 2015, 07:00:49 PM »
I have just finished reading this thread with great amusement, and I think it very likely that Romulus is Interdimensional Warrior.

Romulus displays IDW's style in every way, except for the lack of outright obscenities, which I expect would get him banned immediately.

I have noticed that IDW avoids obscenities on all sites except GLP, where such things are tolerated.

I suspect that the last thing he wants is to be banned for a rules violation that clearly has nothing to do with the subject under discussion.

I have also noticed that he is a very prolific poster, based on his output at GLP under numerous titles (Interdimensional Warrior, IDW, Anonymous Astrophysicist, AA to name a few). 

However, he doesn't seem to have posted on GLP for the last few hours, so he would have time to post here. 

For your amusement: his latest GLP thread is about his anti-gravity experiments.  Nothing new. 

I am an "Anonymous Coward" at GLP, so it is possible that he will make me with this post.  I expect to find out soon enough, when he touts this as proof that I am a NASA shill.

Gentlemen, you are doing splendidly.  Have at it!


"It's not the things we don't know that hurt us, It's the things we do know that aren't so.”  --Artemus Ward

“It never ceases to amaze me how utterly unintelligent a person can be and still believe they are somehow accomplishing something.”  --Interdimensional Warrior

Offline Abaddon

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Re: Is the Scientific Process, Standards of Proof ignored by NASA Supporters?
« Reply #346 on: February 03, 2015, 07:47:03 PM »
He is online right now, yet strangely silent.

Offline smartcooky

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Re: Is the Scientific Process, Standards of Proof ignored by NASA Supporters?
« Reply #347 on: February 03, 2015, 07:51:26 PM »
Mr Romulus has his priorities in the wrong order

1. THE CLAIM: Apollo went to the moon and landed men there. This is what NASA claimed

2. THE EVIDENCE: In support of their claim, NASA provided documentation and a plan (a priori), audio & video records and journals (both LIVE and a posteriori), photographic records (a posteriori) and personal testimony (a posterior) both from the men who went there and everyone who made it happen. There is also the evidence of independent witnesses who were not a part of NASA such as DSN staff in several countries and amateur radio operators and astronomers.

3: THE REFUTATION: Anyone who wishes to claim that this never took place must first challenge the evidence that supports the claim. It is not acceptable to ask the claimant to reprove their claim nor is it a reasonable course of action. If you do not accept the evidence you must prove that it is false. So far, no-one has ever got past this stage; not Sibrel, not Kaysing, not Jack White, not Jarrah and certainly, not you.

Mr Romulus. You claim to have solid evidence that NASA are lying about having put men on the moon between 1969 and 1972, and that you can refute all their evidence that they did so. Yet it seems you are unwilling to put that evidence up for discussion. This leads me to one of two conclusions;

a. That you are a liar - you have no evidence, or
b. That you are a coward  - you know that the evidence you claim to have will not stand up to the scrutiny it will face if presented here.

All I have seen from you here is the usual bluff and bluster that we have all seen before from the likes of Hunchbacked, Heiwa, IDW, Dr Socks, AWE130 and the Blunder from Down Under et al; long on self-congratulations, superciliousness and claims of victory, short on facts!

Until you present your case with facts and evidence, your credibility here will continue to be zero.
If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong.

Offline Abaddon

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Re: Is the Scientific Process, Standards of Proof ignored by NASA Supporters?
« Reply #348 on: February 03, 2015, 07:54:10 PM »
<respectful snip>
"Humots"...where have we met before? That handle rings a bell, but I can't quite place it. JREF? ISF? UM? Similar?

Offline Sus_pilot

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Re: Is the Scientific Process, Standards of Proof ignored by NASA Supporters?
« Reply #349 on: February 03, 2015, 07:59:22 PM »
Romulus:  I am seriously curious to see any shred of evidence you may have that Apollo was faked.  Because, if it was, there is a huge vacuum that wants to be filled, such as, but certainly not limited to:

What did all those people on the Atlantic Seaboard see launched?
What were all those naive contractor employees really working on?
How were all the transmissions of all types, ranging from voice to video to telemetry faked, to multiple, independent receivers?
How was the photography faked?
What was the motivation for this grand conspiracy?
What happened to the money?

You see, it's not enough to try to prove Jay and "his minions" wrong.*. Without the above and more, you've left an immense gap in the historical record that cannot be left open.  What would take it's place?

==========
*For the record, Jay and I have never met.  He (and the rest of you) have a standing offer to hoist a few if we should find ourselves at the same airshow/aviation event.

Offline nomuse

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Re: Is the Scientific Process, Standards of Proof ignored by NASA Supporters?
« Reply #350 on: February 03, 2015, 08:01:28 PM »
Interdimensional Warrior, I'm guessing.  He didn't even last the evening before descending into a bannable series of obsessive and insulting remarks.

Naw. The flavor is similar, but IDW would never get this far without starting to snarl about the juice, and begin general meltdown. And I refuse to believe in the spellcheck software that would make his usual output look like this.

From my prior experience with IDW, Romulus sounds like a dead ringer.  The m.o. and style are virtually identical.  For instance (1) false claims of higher education and expertise, (2) claims of intellectual superiority, (3) delight in the fantasy that he has bested other intellectuals, (4) belittlement of those who have true professional credentials, (5) claims to have information/evidence that he steadfastly refuses to reveal, and (6) he's an habitual liar.  Furthermore, the IDW that I remember didn't show any propensity to meltdown.

My most recent encounters have been at GLP. But I think he treats discussion there as more of a social occasion and doesn't feel quite so constrained to pretend politeness.

I have to admit, the number of "tells" is already large, and growing. The "I have proved..." phrasing and the "No-one here is intelligent enough to understand my argument" meme both showed up strongly within the next group of posts after I replied.

Offline nomuse

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Re: Is the Scientific Process, Standards of Proof ignored by NASA Supporters?
« Reply #351 on: February 03, 2015, 08:09:09 PM »
WHen I was a kid growing up, we had a word for what you are doing. We called it a "ni**erpile


...and our little troll is also a racist...how cute.

And that makes two more. Darn it. I was so sure on the lack of creative spelling and punctuation. Maybe he got a copy editor?

Offline Abaddon

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Re: Is the Scientific Process, Standards of Proof ignored by NASA Supporters?
« Reply #352 on: February 03, 2015, 08:17:56 PM »
Romulus:  I am seriously curious to see any shred of evidence you may have that Apollo was faked.
You will not get it because Romulus has none to offer

Because, if it was, there is a huge vacuum that wants to be filled, such as, but certainly not limited to:

What did all those people on the Atlantic Seaboard see launched?
What were all those naive contractor employees really working on?
How were all the transmissions of all types, ranging from voice to video to telemetry faked, to multiple, independent receivers?
How was the photography faked?
What was the motivation for this grand conspiracy?
What happened to the money?
Romulus thinks everyone is in on the scam except for him.

You see, it's not enough to try to prove Jay and "his minions" wrong.*. Without the above and more, you've left an immense gap in the historical record that cannot be left open.  What would take it's place?
Romulus thinks that nothing exists outside the US. Romulus has no concept of how small a proportion of humanity comprises the sub 5% that the US is. Romulus thinks nothing exists outside the US.

==========
*For the record, Jay and I have never met.  He (and the rest of you) have a standing offer to hoist a few if we should find ourselves at the same airshow/aviation event.
As far as romulus is concerned, we are all jay, nothing exists beyond jay. You are a jay sock. I am a jay sock. Everyone is a jay sock. Nonetheless, I will stand my round and then some. I could do a role call, but I suspect I would run out of keyboard. You know who you are. Rommy does not.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2015, 08:19:27 PM by Abaddon »

Offline DD Brock

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Re: Is the Scientific Process, Standards of Proof ignored by NASA Supporters?
« Reply #353 on: February 03, 2015, 08:22:59 PM »
If we are all Jay socks, can I be argyle?

Offline Humots

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Re: Is the Scientific Process, Standards of Proof ignored by NASA Supporters?
« Reply #354 on: February 03, 2015, 08:35:12 PM »
<respectful snip>
"Humots"...where have we met before? That handle rings a bell, but I can't quite place it. JREF? ISF? UM? Similar?

I post occasionally on JREF and Cosmoquest. 
"It's not the things we don't know that hurt us, It's the things we do know that aren't so.”  --Artemus Ward

“It never ceases to amaze me how utterly unintelligent a person can be and still believe they are somehow accomplishing something.”  --Interdimensional Warrior

Offline dwight

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Re: Is the Scientific Process, Standards of Proof ignored by NASA Supporters?
« Reply #355 on: February 03, 2015, 08:56:05 PM »
I think Romulus has scarped to another misinformation thread...
"Honeysuckle TV on line!"

Offline LunarOrbit

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Re: Is the Scientific Process, Standards of Proof ignored by NASA Supporters?
« Reply #356 on: February 03, 2015, 09:25:11 PM »
WHen I was a kid growing up, we had a word for what you are doing. We called it a "ni**erpile

You claim to be superior to us and yet here you are proving yourself to be one of the lowest forms of life in existence... a racist.

I think this goes to the core of your personality disorder, Mr.Windley. To you , fair is whatever allows you to prevail.

I recommend not making any further comments like that, if you wish to continue posting here freely.
It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth.
I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth.
I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
- Neil Armstrong (1930-2012)

Offline Kiwi

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Re: Is the Scientific Process, Standards of Proof ignored by NASA Supporters?
« Reply #357 on: February 03, 2015, 10:25:55 PM »
Site a reference to Armstrong pontificating about the moonlandings

See the thread in the Reality of Apollo section:
Neil Armstrong Talking About the Moon
http://www.apollohoax.net/forum/index.php?topic=765.msg25739#msg25739

Just three quick questions:

In New Zealand we use the word "cite" in the context you used "site". Is it not the same where you live?

My copy of Websters defines "pontificate" as: "To act or speak pompously or dogmatically." Do you really think Neil Armstrong talked like that, or were you just insulting him?

Could you please hurry up and present your evidence for a moonlanding hoax?

Romulus: Did you notice the above post?  Have you looked at the many instances provided of Armstrong talking about the moon?

Please answer the questions.
Don't criticize what you can't understand. — Bob Dylan, “The Times They Are A-Changin'” (1963)
Some people think they are thinking when they are really rearranging their prejudices and superstitions. — Edward R. Murrow (1908–65)

Offline gillianren

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Re: Is the Scientific Process, Standards of Proof ignored by NASA Supporters?
« Reply #358 on: February 03, 2015, 11:03:11 PM »
If you lie about anything, you will lie about everything.

Oh, baloney.  You don't even really believe that yourself.  Everything?  From the contents of my shopping list to the name of my child?  Everything?  No.  You just want to believe that I'm lying about the historical record, because that's more convenient to you than simply presenting your alleged evidence.
"This sounds like a job for Bipolar Bear . . . but I just can't seem to get out of bed!"

"Conspiracy theories are an irresistible labour-saving device in the face of complexity."  --Henry Louis Gates

Offline sts60

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Romulus original premise ("scientific method")
« Reply #359 on: February 03, 2015, 11:58:56 PM »
Hello, Romulus.  Welcome, belatedly, to the board.  I have skimmed this thread, and finally have a moment to chip in, so I wanted to briefly address your original claim.

If I understand you correctly, you say that the Apollo manned lunar missions are, collectively, a scientifically unproven claim, because the "scientific method" requires that they be reproduced.  In support of this assertion, you claimed you were a scientist (which you qualified by saying you were a student of science for a long time). 

Although my undergraduate degree was in space physics, I will stipulate that I am no scientist.  My graduate degrees and work experience are in engineering.  However, I think your "scientific method" premise suffers from two major flaws:

First, while people have been saying Apollo is an engineering subject, or a historical subject, rather than a scientific one, the whole truth is that Apollo is an engineering subject and a historical subject and a scientific one.  So Apollo can be validated in a variety of different ways, and it is very thoroughly documented in each of those ways.  The consensus of the relevant communities of practice in each field is that Apollo happened.  More importantly, this consensus can be explored in almost any level of detail you can specify; Apollo is arguably the most heavily-documented large technical project in history.  So the expert consensus is available for anyone to confirm.  You've also stated that it's riddled with examples that prove your contention, and I see you've started a thread about photographic examples, but I have yet to see any such example hold up to informed scrutiny.  We'll see if you come up with something different.

Second, even if we artificially restrict ourselves to only the "repeatability" argument, that argument in itself fails.  A couple of posters have already pointed this out - forgive me, it's late, I have a ratty Internet connection, and I don't want to spend the time right now looking for their posts again - that in many ways Apollo has been reproduced.  To revisit what's already been pointed out. consider the Apollo aspects that have been repeated:
- First lunar landing?  Repeated by Apollo 12, 14, 15, 16, 17.  But let's look at non-Apollo examples.
- Earth-orbit manned flights and EVAs: repeated by Soviets/Russians and Chinese.
- Earth-escape, cislunar, translunar, and lunar orbit operations: repeated by Soviets/Russians, European coalition, Chinese, Indians, Japanese (did I forget anyone?).
- Lunar soft landing: Soviets/Russians, Chinese.
- Lunar sample return: Soviets.
- Man-rated vehicles and living organisms sent around Moon: Soviets.

Also repeated were many of the technologies - rocket engines, manufacturing methods, guidance techniques, etc. - developed for Apollo.  The gigantic and complicated prelaunch processing, checkout, and launch facilities used for Apollo have been in constant use for decades, getting modified for each successive launch and space system to use them.  I work with a guy who was on the team that used an Apollo Guidance Computer to control the first digital fly-by-wire aircraft.  I've used one of the same thermal vacuum chambers that was used to test the Apollo lunar module.  Examples abound of the heritage of Apollo being confirmed by reuse and adaptation.

So, the only things that haven't been repeated since the last Apollo flight are humans actually being in a spacecraft to the Moon.  You've said that NASA "admitted it can't be done for decades" (or words to that effect - I stipulate that's not a direct quote), but the reality is that there's no technical reason it can't be done.  It's just hugely expensive, and without a clear political mandate no one has been willing to lay out the enormous amount of money to do it soon.

In short, there is more than one way to validate Apollo, and it's been done; and even in the most restrictive sense, Apollo capabilities have been very well reproduced.  So I have to say that your starting premise is fundamentally broken. 

That's all I have time for now, but I will try to address some of your other points when I have time.