ApolloHoax.net

Off Topic => General Discussion => Topic started by: smartcooky on January 31, 2018, 04:42:39 PM

Title: "Electron" Rocket makes New Zealand the 11th country to join the space club
Post by: smartcooky on January 31, 2018, 04:42:39 PM
I'm quite surprised that Kiwi hasn't already posted something about this.

On 21 January 2018, New Zealand became the 11th country to launch a satellite into orbit, and Rocket Lab became only the second private space company to do so, when they launched their Rutherford powered Electron Rocket from their Mahia Peninsula Launch Complex.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_oAGlhFezo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_oAGlhFezo)

https://www.rocketlabusa.com/news/updates/rocket-lab-successfully-reaches-orbit-and-deploys-payloads-january-21-2018/ (https://www.rocketlabusa.com/news/updates/rocket-lab-successfully-reaches-orbit-and-deploys-payloads-january-21-2018/)

“Reaching orbit on a second test flight is significant on its own, but successfully deploying customer payloads so early in a new rocket program is almost unprecedented. Rocket Lab was founded on the principal of opening access to space to better understand our planet and improve life on it. Today we took a significant step towards that,” he says.   

Rocket Lab has introduced some key innovations that make this quite an achievement.

3D printed engines
The Electron's Rutherford engine is the first orbital class LOX-RP1 engine to use 3D printing for all its primary components, including the thrust chamber, the fuel injector, the pumps and the main propellant valves. These are all printed from titanium alloys in 3-4 days using a technique called electron beam melting. Traditional parts manufacture usually takes months.

Electric Turbopumps
Usually, the propellant is injected into a rocket motor using turbopumps driven by a turbine powered by fuel, such as liquid oxygen or gaseous hydrogen. However, Rocket Lab have gone for a bit of Kiwi ingenuity, and used brushless DC electric motors powered by lithium-polymer batteries.

Fast Turnarounds with small payloads.
At full production, Rocket Lab eventually expects to launch more than 50 times a year, and is regulated to launch up to 120 times a year. In comparison, there were 22 launches last year from the United States (18 of them by SpaceX) and 82 internationally. No longer will customers wanting to put small packages such as cubesats in orbit have to wait to hitch a ride with one of the Big Boys (ULA, ESA, SpaceX etc). At a cost of US$5m per launch and a payload capacity of 225kg (a price/kg comparable to that of ULA's Atlas V), Rocket Lab can put several of these into orbit for less than a million dollars each... that's chump change in space terms. To that end, Rocket Lab has the next two years of launches fully booked and is looking to increase their rate to accommodate the customer's needs.

The Kick Stage
Rocket Lab kept secret two other satellites riding atop the launch vehicle; an additional kick stage engine separated and coasted through space for 40 minutes before igniting to place the two Spire Lemur-2 nanosatellites into a nearly circular 500 kilometre orbit.

Powered by Rocket Lab’s new Curie restartable engine, the kick stage burns a non-toxic “green” monopropellant. A company spokesperson said details about the make-up of the propellant are “commercially sensitive.”

This kick stage allows future launches to place multiple satellites into different orbits. Different customers flying different types of payloads on the same launch will be able to define their own orbits.

"Until now many small satellite operators have had to compromise on optimal orbits in order to reach space at an accessible cost,” said Peter Beck, Rocket Lab’s founder and CEO. “The kick stage releases small satellites from the constricting parameters of primary payload orbits and enables them to fully reach their potential, including faster deployment of small satellite constellations and better positioning for Earth imaging.”

NOTE: This kick stage is not the same thing as an apogee kick motor. It has its own suite of on-board avionics, power and communications systems. Its "Curie" engine can be re-ignited and has its own cold gas reaction control system for pointing to adjust orbital inclinations and altitude.

https://spaceflightnow.com/2018/01/29/rocket-labs-test-launch-carried-two-previously-unannounced-passengers/ (https://spaceflightnow.com/2018/01/29/rocket-labs-test-launch-carried-two-previously-unannounced-passengers/)



Title: Re: "Electron" Rocket makes New Zealand the 11th country to join the space club
Post by: Obviousman on February 01, 2018, 01:50:32 AM
I discussed this with a senior member of the ADF who has ties to an Australian astronaut. He said that he had spoken to the Australian astronaut and that the Australian astronaut had given up on an Australian space programme and no longer supported / appeared for it; it was just all talk and no actual support or commitment from the government. I can't say I disagree.
Title: Re: "Electron" Rocket makes New Zealand the 11th country to join the space club
Post by: Apollo 957 on February 14, 2018, 07:17:52 PM
11th; so, from 1 to 10, we have

USA
Russia
China
Japan
India ....

who have I missed?

Europe? Including UK, Italy, France, and ... ??
Title: Re: "Electron" Rocket makes New Zealand the 11th country to join the space club
Post by: raven on February 14, 2018, 09:29:34 PM
11th; so, from 1 to 10, we have

USA
Russia
China
Japan
India ....

who have I missed?

Europe? Including UK, Italy, France, and ... ??
I know the UK did one, precisely one (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Arrow), successful launch independently of the ESA with the Black Arrow.
Title: Re: "Electron" Rocket makes New Zealand the 11th country to join the space club
Post by: LunarOrbit on February 14, 2018, 10:29:46 PM
11th; so, from 1 to 10, we have

USA
Russia
China
Japan
India ....

who have I missed?

Europe? Including UK, Italy, France, and ... ??
I know the UK did one, precisely one (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Arrow), successful launch independently of the ESA with the Black Arrow.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_first_orbital_launches_by_country

Soviet Union
United States
France
Japan
China
United Kingdom
India
Israel
Iran
North Korea
New Zealand
Title: Re: "Electron" Rocket makes New Zealand the 11th country to join the space club
Post by: gwiz on February 15, 2018, 10:57:02 AM
If what counts is the country of launch rather than who manufactured the vehicle, then Australia should be the fourth, Algeria should replace France, French Guiana comes next and UK has never hosted a launch.  South Korea should be included, possibly Kazakhstan or Russia now they are separate countries, Marshall Islands and if you count places that aircraft have taken off from with Pegasus launchers there are even more.
Title: Re: "Electron" Rocket makes New Zealand the 11th country to join the space club
Post by: smartcooky on February 15, 2018, 03:28:56 PM
If what counts is the country of launch rather than who manufactured the vehicle, then Australia should be the fourth, Algeria should replace France, French Guiana comes next and UK has never hosted a launch.  South Korea should be included, possibly Kazakhstan or Russia now they are separate countries, Marshall Islands and if you count places that aircraft have taken off from with Pegasus launchers there are even more.

Err, that would make Algeria third! Yeah, right!

Its stretching credibility to claim that the "lipstick rocket" was an Australian launch... British scientists, British Engineers, British money, British payload and only British aeronautical companies involved (Saunders-Roe and Westland Aircraft).
Title: Re: "Electron" Rocket makes New Zealand the 11th country to join the space club
Post by: LunarOrbit on February 15, 2018, 06:49:05 PM
Clearly the most important thing is that Canada was the third country to have a satellite in orbit (even though NASA launched it for us). ;)

Sent from my SM-N920W8 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: "Electron" Rocket makes New Zealand the 11th country to join the space club
Post by: gwiz on February 16, 2018, 08:50:57 AM
Its stretching credibility to claim that the "lipstick rocket" was an Australian launch... British scientists, British Engineers, British money, British payload and only British aeronautical companies involved (Saunders-Roe and Westland Aircraft).
Australia's claim to fourth place rests with this one which does have Australian input: http://www.iafastro.org/wresat-australias-first-satellite/
Title: Re: "Electron" Rocket makes New Zealand the 11th country to join the space club
Post by: smartcooky on February 16, 2018, 02:56:09 PM
Its stretching credibility to claim that the "lipstick rocket" was an Australian launch... British scientists, British Engineers, British money, British payload and only British aeronautical companies involved (Saunders-Roe and Westland Aircraft).
Australia's claim to fourth place rests with this one which does have Australian input: http://www.iafastro.org/wresat-australias-first-satellite/

Launched on an American designed and built Redstone Rocket, using American technology. Sorry, it doesn't fly. Its like trying to claim Algeria put a rocket into space merely because the French rocket was launched from there. The country that has the valid claim to the launch is the one that did the work and the hard yards; innovation, development, and provided the expertise. Claiming a country is responsible for launching a rocket to space merely because it was launched from their land mass is rather like claiming a movie was made by the country of the filming location, e.g. The Lord of the Rings films are American films (not NZ films as some of my countrymen like to claim) even if it was filmed here, and even if the director was a Kiwi.

Have a look at a map and the topography of Britain and Western Europe sometime and ask yourself why orbital rockets would be very difficult if not impossible to actually launch from there, and why the British went to Australia and the French went to Algeria and then, with Europe, went to Kourou in French Guiana in 1968 where they have been ever since.

Title: Re: "Electron" Rocket makes New Zealand the 11th country to join the space club
Post by: raven on February 16, 2018, 03:36:00 PM
Yeah, I mean, I'm super proud Canada has had a few Canadian made satellites flown, not to mention the Canadarms for the Orbiter and the ISS, but I don't pretend we've launched anything but sounding rockets, albeit very good ones.
Title: Re: "Electron" Rocket makes New Zealand the 11th country to join the space club
Post by: gwiz on February 17, 2018, 05:39:30 AM
Claiming a country is responsible for launching a rocket to space merely because it was launched from their land mass is rather like claiming a movie was made by the country of the filming location, e.g. The Lord of the Rings films are American films (not NZ films as some of my countrymen like to claim) even if it was filmed here, and even if the director was a Kiwi.
This was the point I was trying to make in response to your initial post claiming New Zealand was the 11th country.
Title: Re: "Electron" Rocket makes New Zealand the 11th country to join the space club
Post by: smartcooky on February 17, 2018, 03:18:08 PM
Claiming a country is responsible for launching a rocket to space merely because it was launched from their land mass is rather like claiming a movie was made by the country of the filming location, e.g. The Lord of the Rings films are American films (not NZ films as some of my countrymen like to claim) even if it was filmed here, and even if the director was a Kiwi.
This was the point I was trying to make in response to your initial post claiming New Zealand was the 11th country.

Except that the launch wasn't just hosted in this country. The drive, the expertise, the aerospace engineering and the "rocket-science" are all local. The Rutherford Engines with their ground-breaking 3D printed parts, as well as the concept of using electric DC motors for turbo pumps was all the brainchild of New Zealander Peter Beck (Rocket Lab CEO) who founded the company in 2006 with seed finance from Mark Rocket (yes, that is is real name) and launched their first non-orbital flight into space in 2009.

https://www.nbr.co.nz/article/nz-rocket-blasts-and-so-will-profits-maker-says-114972

I don't see why you are trying to pour cold water on this achievement (unless, of course, you're an Australian, then it would perfectly understandable, there would be nothing new in that)
 
Title: Re: "Electron" Rocket makes New Zealand the 11th country to join the space club
Post by: gwiz on February 18, 2018, 09:24:19 AM
However, Rocket Lab is a US company.  Von Braun and many of his team were German, but no-one claims that Explorer 1 was anything other than a US launch.  By the time they designed the Redstone, the Germans were all working for a US organisation.
Title: Re: "Electron" Rocket makes New Zealand the 11th country to join the space club
Post by: smartcooky on February 18, 2018, 11:00:24 PM
However, Rocket Lab is a US company.  Von Braun and many of his team were German, but no-one claims that Explorer 1 was anything other than a US launch.  By the time they designed the Redstone, the Germans were all working for a US organisation.

The rest of the world acknowledges that this is a NZ launch, and that we are the 11th country to launch satellites into orbit.

Frankly, I just think you're just trolling me. I expect this from youtubers and at places like Godlike Productions and Above Top Secret... but I didn't expect this crap here from a regular.
Title: Re: "Electron" Rocket makes New Zealand the 11th country to join the space club
Post by: gwiz on February 19, 2018, 06:27:33 AM
The rest of the world acknowledges that this is a NZ launch, and that we are the 11th country to launch satellites into orbit.
We'll have to see which country eventually registers it with the UN.  In the meantime, the Satellite Situation Report lists all objects from the launch, Electron stages included, as US apart from the Humanity Star payload.
Title: Re: "Electron" Rocket makes New Zealand the 11th country to join the space club
Post by: Geordie on February 19, 2018, 02:49:19 PM
However, Rocket Lab is a US company.  Von Braun and many of his team were German, but no-one claims that Explorer 1 was anything other than a US launch.  By the time they designed the Redstone, the Germans were all working for a US organisation.
But von Braun wasn't running a German subsidiary company, in postwar Germany, launching rockets from German soil.

No one is claiming an NZ launch and satellite deployment on the strength of some kiwis working in the US.
Title: Re: "Electron" Rocket makes New Zealand the 11th country to join the space club
Post by: gwiz on February 20, 2018, 12:19:23 PM
I'll refer you to the mission patch, the flag for the US, but no flag, only a fern for NZ.  First launch patch had similar symbols and the actual rocket also carried a US flag.
http://www.spaceflightinsider.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/MissionPatch.png
Title: Re: "Electron" Rocket makes New Zealand the 11th country to join the space club
Post by: smartcooky on February 20, 2018, 02:15:42 PM
I'll refer you to the mission patch, the flag for the US, but no flag, only a fern for NZ.  First launch patch had similar symbols and the actual rocket also carried a US flag.
http://www.spaceflightinsider.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/MissionPatch.png

If you knew anything at all about New Zealand (and you obviously do not) you would know that the Silver Fern IS the symbol of New Zealand, internationally recognised in all affairs except those of government. Trade, sport, retail and manufacturing all use the Silver Fern and only the Silver Fern. It is the officially registered trademark of NZ

http://www.fernmark.nzstory.govt.nz/silver-fern

You will not find the NZ flag on anything produced or made by private companies in New Zealand, except those involving the government, e.g. the military. I would have been astonished to see the New Zealand Flag on Electron as it is a private project, not a Government project (a NZ Flag would indicate it had something to do with the NZ Government)

And just to further rip the rug out from your mission patch argument I give you the SpaceX mission patch for Bulgariasat

(https://www.dropbox.com/s/joaf5senq36of1n/bulgx.jpg?raw=1)

The green, white and red of the Bulgarian Flag is prominent... must have been launched by Bulgaria, right?

Ooops... try again.


ETA: And just to address your "RocketLab is a USA company" meme

Intel, the great American Computer chip manufacturer, right? Bzzzt Wrong... based in The Republic Of Ireland.

Vauxhall, the Great British car manufacturer? No so fast... its a subsidiary of General Motors, an American Company, based in Detroit

Just because RocketLab is based in the USA does not mean that Electron is an American rocket or that the launch was American. The rocket was conceived, designed, manufactured, tested and launched in New Zealand, with New Zealand expertise, skill and engineering. It is a New Zealand Rocket by every measure that matters.
Title: Re: "Electron" Rocket makes New Zealand the 11th country to join the space club
Post by: smartcooky on February 20, 2018, 09:42:09 PM
While we are on the subject of mission patches, I note that you mention the original "Its a Test" patch from the first attempt to go to orbit. Interesting that you didn't link to it.

Well here it is

(https://www.dropbox.com/s/1ld9lufrrej89bd/RL1.png?raw=1)

The "American Flag" you mention is a strange one indeed... the stars are white and the stripes are red (there are only three of them... I thought there were supposed to be 13, but I digress) are on a black background. I wonder why that is?

Further, in the centre of the patch is Rocket Lab's Logo; the same logo that is on the side of the Electron rocket

(https://www.dropbox.com/s/m387aeyvhk0u4y4/ElectronRLNZ.jpg?raw=1)

(also, note the Silver Fern at the top!)

Rocket Lab's logo is a stylized atom, the Earth is shown as the nucleus, with three electrons "in orbit". Note the country that is centred on the globe... can you guess which country that is?

Title: Re: "Electron" Rocket makes New Zealand the 11th country to join the space club
Post by: DD Brock on February 21, 2018, 03:23:55 AM
That's a cool mission patch!
Title: Re: "Electron" Rocket makes New Zealand the 11th country to join the space club
Post by: gwiz on February 21, 2018, 09:01:53 AM
The "American Flag" you mention is a strange one indeed...
Nothing strange about the US flag on the tail of the rocket: https://www.rocketlabusa.com/assets/Uploads/Rocket-Lab-Still-Testing-launch-21-January-2018.jpg

Do NZ merchant ships use a fern or a national flag?

SpaceX may have put the Bulgarian flag on the patch, but the actual rocket carried a US flag and a Bulgariasat company logo.

And from someone who should know:
Rocket Lab, like Beck himself, did originate in New Zealand. Only after the Electron program began did it become a U.S. company with a New Zealand subsidiary.

“We had secured significant Silicon Valley capital, and it doesn’t make sense to build value like that in a New Zealand company,” Beck explained. “And the launch vehicle is a U.S. launch vehicle, so there’s a lot of legal reasons why we need to be a U.S. company as well.”
http://www.spaceflightinsider.com/missions/commercial/rocket-lab-electron-rutherford-peter-beck-started-first-place/
Title: Re: "Electron" Rocket makes New Zealand the 11th country to join the space club
Post by: Geordie on February 21, 2018, 02:21:29 PM
Further, in the centre of the patch is Rocket Lab's Logo; the same logo that is on the side of the Electron rocket.
You forgot to mention that the background is All Black.
Title: Re: "Electron" Rocket makes New Zealand the 11th country to join the space club
Post by: smartcooky on February 21, 2018, 02:44:54 PM
Nothing strange about the US flag on the tail of the rocket: https://www.rocketlabusa.com/assets/Uploads/Rocket-Lab-Still-Testing-launch-21-January-2018.jpg

So what? Its tiny and sits at the very bottom of the the rocket. It represents American involvement. There is a Silver Fern flag in the same place on the other side of the rocket.

Do NZ merchant ships use a fern or a national flag?

Yes they do... They also fly the "red duster" (the NZ Red Ensign). That is a requirement of International Marine Law. A flag is meant to be identified easily at sea. The problem with the use of black on a flag is it gets really difficult to discern in a dimly lit area where a flag begins and ends. The dark blue of the NZ flag also present that problem which is why the red and white ensigns are used. However, NZ Merchant ships DO fly silver fern flags as well

SpaceX may have put the Bulgarian flag on the patch, but the actual rocket carried a US flag and a Bulgariasat company logo.

You insisted that the flag on the mission patch denotes the country that launched itt.. Now you insist that it doesn't. Its the old switcheroo, a technique right out of the CT playbook. Please make up your mind.

Quote
And from someone who should know:
Rocket Lab, like Beck himself, did originate in New Zealand. Only after the Electron program began did it become a U.S. company with a New Zealand subsidiary.

And that subsidiary means that its partly a NZ Company, in exactly the same way that Vauxhall is a British car maker, a subsidiary of General Motors, an American car maker; in exactly the same way that Holden is an Australian car maker, a subsidiary of General Motors, an American car maker; in the same way that Intel, an American manufacturer of computer IC's is actually based in the Republic of Ireland.

This launch least partly a NZ launch, and that is sufficient to make NZ the 11th country to launch an orbital class rocket, like it or lump it.

Quote
“We had secured significant Silicon Valley capital, and it doesn’t make sense to build value like that in a New Zealand company,” Beck explained. “And the launch vehicle is a U.S. launch vehicle, so there’s a lot of legal reasons why we need to be a U.S. company as well.”
http://www.spaceflightinsider.com/missions/commercial/rocket-lab-electron-rutherford-peter-beck-started-first-place/

All very interesting, and all meaningless. Vauxhall had HUGE financial input from Detroit, as did Holden. It doesn't make the Vauxhall Corsa, Astra, Mokka, Insignia, Zafira or Crossland, or the Holden Commodore, Calais or Monaro American cars.

General Electric and Motorola... two iconic American Brands, right... BZZZT Wrong. They are wholly owned by Chinese investors, yet no-one claims that the over 33,000 GE Engines in Civilian and Military aircraft such as the Boeing 787, 777,  are Chinese. No-one claims that the range of domestic and commercial products that these companies sell are Chinese.

International investment is the commercial reality that all companies face, especially ones in countries as small as this one. None of what you have argued makes any difference to the fact the world recognises this as a New Zealand launch.

Finally, I really don't understand why you need to be such a contrarian. For some reason, the very idea that a small country like mine has achieved this seems to really chap your arse. Perhaps its because the British government pulled the plug on your efforts. Who knows?

On this forum, we are ALL space enthusiasts (at least, I hope we are, otherwise, why are we even here?). Another country getting into space should be an achievement that is celebrated by all of us. We should have been celebrating innovations  such as 3D printed engines, and battery powered electric turbopumps; both firsts in an orbital class rocket. Instead, the thread has been derailed by a killjoy into a pointless argument about who launched the rocket. If I had known that I would need to defend our achievement against a contrarian who seems to have a burr up his backside about something, I would not have bothered even mentioning the launch in the first place.

I shall have to be very, very careful in future what I post here... and that saddens me.
Title: Re: "Electron" Rocket makes New Zealand the 11th country to join the space club
Post by: smartcooky on February 21, 2018, 02:52:14 PM
Further, in the centre of the patch is Rocket Lab's Logo; the same logo that is on the side of the Electron rocket.
You forgot to mention that the background is All Black.

And the Rocket, well the first one was, the second one was black and white
Title: Re: "Electron" Rocket makes New Zealand the 11th country to join the space club
Post by: gwiz on February 22, 2018, 12:58:52 PM
You insisted that the flag on the mission patch denotes the country that launched itt.. Now you insist that it doesn't. Its the old switcheroo, a technique right out of the CT playbook. Please make up your mind.
I first mentioned the flags on the patch and the actual rocket in the same post above.  I didn't switch from patch to rocket after you gave a counter-example.  However, I would think that what's on the actual rocket is what counts the most.

I'm sorry you feel as you do, I'm not trying to be difficult nor do I discount the technical achievements of Rocket Lab.  It just seems to me that there is evidence - the flag on the rocket, the Satellite Situation Report and Beck's own statement - that not everyone considers the nationality as clearly defined as you do.

As I said above we'll have to see which country eventually registers this launch with the UN to have a definitive answer.  Can we agree to wait?
Title: Re: "Electron" Rocket makes New Zealand the 11th country to join the space club
Post by: smartcooky on February 22, 2018, 02:27:20 PM
As I said above we'll have to see which country eventually registers this launch with the UN to have a definitive answer

That's not definitive. UNOOSA registers the satellites that make orbit, not the launch vehicle. Thats why you have countries like

Norway (NorSat-2 launched from Baikonur Cosmodrome)
Pakistan (BADR-1 launched from Jiuquan Satellite Launch Center)
Canada (Nimiq-5 launched  from Baikonur Cosmodrome)
Mongolia (NUMSat-1 launched from Baikonur Cosmodrome)

listed in their registry

Title: Re: "Electron" Rocket makes New Zealand the 11th country to join the space club
Post by: gwiz on February 23, 2018, 12:29:28 PM
The USA includes its rocket stages in its registrations.
Title: Re: "Electron" Rocket makes New Zealand the 11th country to join the space club
Post by: smartcooky on February 23, 2018, 06:52:08 PM
The USA includes its rocket stages in its registrations.

Only those that go into orbit, or will remain in orbit for some period of time. De-orbited stages are not registered. SpaceX  de-orbits second stages (once the payload is deployed) so as not to add to the problem of space junk. Rocket Lab also did this in "Still Testing", and they destroyed the whole rocket on "Its a Test" so as not to have it go into orbit.
Title: Re: "Electron" Rocket makes New Zealand the 11th country to join the space club
Post by: gwiz on February 24, 2018, 06:19:24 AM
Only those that go into orbit, or will remain in orbit for some period of time. De-orbited stages are not registered. SpaceX  de-orbits second stages (once the payload is deployed) so as not to add to the problem of space junk. Rocket Lab also did this in "Still Testing", and they destroyed the whole rocket on "Its a Test" so as not to have it go into orbit.
Both the second and third stages from "Still Testing" are still in orbit.  They destroyed "It's a Test" because they lost telemetry and couldn't confirm it was still on track, it was planned to go into orbit with a Humanity Star satellite.
Title: Re: "Electron" Rocket makes New Zealand the 11th country to join the space club
Post by: smartcooky on February 24, 2018, 09:22:16 PM
Only those that go into orbit, or will remain in orbit for some period of time. De-orbited stages are not registered. SpaceX  de-orbits second stages (once the payload is deployed) so as not to add to the problem of space junk. Rocket Lab also did this in "Still Testing", and they destroyed the whole rocket on "Its a Test" so as not to have it go into orbit.
Both the second and third stages from "Still Testing" are still in orbit.  They destroyed "It's a Test" because they lost telemetry and couldn't confirm it was still on track, it was planned to go into orbit with a Humanity Star satellite.

I don't know where you get your information from, but Electron is only a two-stage rocket.

Title: Re: "Electron" Rocket makes New Zealand the 11th country to join the space club
Post by: gwiz on February 25, 2018, 05:43:18 AM
I don't know where you get your information from, but Electron is only a two-stage rocket.
Rocket Lab didn't announce it until a few days after the launch, but "Still Testing" carried a third stage (called "kick stage" in the link) which was used to raise the orbit of two of the three Cubesat payloads.
https://www.rocketlabusa.com/news/updates/rocket-lab-successfully-circularizes-orbit-with-new-electron-kick-stage/
Title: Re: "Electron" Rocket makes New Zealand the 11th country to join the space club
Post by: smartcooky on February 25, 2018, 03:47:03 PM
I don't know where you get your information from, but Electron is only a two-stage rocket.
Rocket Lab didn't announce it until a few days after the launch, but "Still Testing" carried a third stage (called "kick stage" in the link) which was used to raise the orbit of two of the three Cubesat payloads.
https://www.rocketlabusa.com/news/updates/rocket-lab-successfully-circularizes-orbit-with-new-electron-kick-stage/

The "kick stage" is not a stage at all. i.e. its not required to get into earth orbit, its part of the payload adaptor . Calling it a "stage" is like calling an apogee kick motor a stage, or calling the  SM the 4th stage of a Saturn V

However, I'm glad brought it up, it because its another piece of Kiwi ingenuity (Peter Beck's idea actually)  that allows each satellite on a launch to be inserted exactly into its own orbit, something that cannot be usually done with a small satellites that hitch a ride on a launch with a large primary satellite.

Anyway, I've had enough of this "you say, I say" crap, so I decided to end this by getting the information from the horse's mouth, i.e. going directly to the source. On the weekend, I wrote to Rocket Lab's communications manager, Morgan Bailey. This is what I wrote;

Quote
Hello
I see that the "Still Testing" launch is being claimed as making New Zealand the 11th country to launch rocket into space and deliver a satellite/payload into orbit. However, I am also hearing claims that this is not a NZ rocket at all, but an American rocket.

Can you confirm whether or not Peter Beck and/or Rocket Lab considers this a New Zealand launch?



And this was his reply...
Quote
Hi Ian,

Rocket Lab is a US company with a New Zealand subsidiary. The Electron launch vehicle is launched from New Zealand, making New Zealand the 11th country to reach orbit.

Thanks

Morgan Bailey
Communications Manager
ROCKET LAB

I am prepared to forward the email to you so that you can see this is not BS and this I what I actually received from the Rocket Lab.

AFAIC that is the end of the matter. This was a New Zealand launch from a New Zealand launch site by a New Zealand subsidiary company that originated in New Zealand, and therefore, by all the measures that matter, makes this country the eleventh country in the world launch a satellite into orbit.

End of story
Title: Re: "Electron" Rocket makes New Zealand the 11th country to join the space club
Post by: gwiz on February 26, 2018, 10:59:57 AM
The "kick stage" is not a stage at all. i.e. its not required to get into earth orbit, its part of the payload adaptor .
Precisely like the HAPS stage on a Pegasus.  Plenty of other stages take their payload on from an initial Earth orbit.  If it's not a stage it seems strange that they should call it one.  Both stages have the same description "Electron r/b" in the Satellite Situation Report.

I applaud your efforts to get a straight answer out of Rocket Lab, but "launched from New Zealand, making New Zealand the 11th country to reach orbit" just takes us back to my first post in this thread: "If what counts is the country of launch rather than who manufactured the vehicle..."
Title: Re: "Electron" Rocket makes New Zealand the 11th country to join the space club
Post by: gwiz on February 26, 2018, 11:09:29 AM
Just googled up this document, the agreement between the NZ Government and Rocket Lab.  Note the references to "U.S. Launch Vehicles" throughout:
http://www.mbie.govt.nz/info-services/sectors-industries/space/new-zealand-space-agency/document-image-library/folder-pdf-library/agreement-nz-government-rocket-lab-nz-usa.pdf
Title: Re: "Electron" Rocket makes New Zealand the 11th country to join the space club
Post by: smartcooky on February 26, 2018, 02:27:10 PM
Precisely like the HAPS stage on a Pegasus.  Plenty of other stages take their payload on from an initial Earth orbit.

Really? I wasn't aware that HAPS could change the orbit and inclination of multiple satellites on one payload adaptor, or that it has its own precision gas thruster control system, avionics systems, power source, and communications equipment. Nothing I have read about HAPS makes me believe it is "precisely like" the Electron kick stage.

Quote
If it's not a stage it seems strange that they should call it one.  Both stages have the same description "Electron r/b" in the Satellite Situation Report.

Meaningless. Lots of things that are different have the same name or are called the same thing. wheels, gears, motors etc.

Quote
I applaud your efforts to get a straight answer out of Rocket Lab, but "launched from New Zealand, making New Zealand the 11th country to reach orbit" just takes us back to my first post in this thread: "If what counts is the country of launch rather than who manufactured the vehicle..."

As I considered your opinion from your first post in the thread to be entirely without merit, it makes no difference to my position. Try as I might, I cannot find a single website saying what you are saying. I can find plenty that are calling this a New Zealand launch (every one I go to except this thread in this forum). I keep searching for websites saying its not a New Zealand launch, and I keep getting results that say it is.

Incidentally, try not to  be patronising... its rude.

Just googled up this document, the agreement between the NZ Government and Rocket Lab.  Note the references to "U.S. Launch Vehicles" throughout:
http://www.mbie.govt.nz/info-services/sectors-industries/space/new-zealand-space-agency/document-image-library/folder-pdf-library/agreement-nz-government-rocket-lab-nz-usa.pdf

And... ?
Title: Re: "Electron" Rocket makes New Zealand the 11th country to join the space club
Post by: gwiz on February 27, 2018, 06:52:37 AM
Really?
Yes, it exactly matches your description that I quoted: "its not required to get into earth orbit, its part of the payload adaptor."  The remaining differences between the HAPS and the Electron kick stage don't make the latter any less a stage, rather the reverse.
Quote
Meaningless.
The Satellite Situation Report tries to get its object identification and nationality information from the owners of the objects, so it's likely the identification of both objects as stages (r/b in SSR terms) comes from Rocket Lab.
Quote
And... ?
And the document adds the NZ Government to the organisations that identify it as a US launch vehicle.
Title: Re: "Electron" Rocket makes New Zealand the 11th country to join the space club
Post by: smartcooky on February 27, 2018, 01:59:57 PM
Yes, it exactly matches your description that I quoted: "its not required to get into earth orbit, its part of the payload adaptor."  The remaining differences between the HAPS and the Electron kick stage don't make the latter any less a stage, rather the reverse.
This does not meet your claim of "precisely like"

"precisely like" means exactly the same in every respect

The Satellite Situation Report tries to get its object identification and nationality information from the owners of the objects, so it's likely the identification of both objects as stages (r/b in SSR terms) comes from Rocket Lab.
All very interesting and all highly illuminating, but ultimately irrelevant because none of this overturns the internationally accepted fact that this was a NZ launch, making this country the 11th country to put a satellite into orbit. This is the hurdle you have to get over. I have the established and accepted facts in my corner; you own the burden of proof to prove your claim.

And the document adds the NZ Government to the organisations that identify it as a US launch vehicle.
Yes, a US owned launch vehicle...

Conceived in New Zealand by the New Zealander who started Rocket Lab in New Zealand
Designed in New Zealand by New Zealand aerospace engineers
Built in New Zealand by New Zealand engineers
Supported by the New Zealand government
Launched from New Zealand at a site owned by a New Zealand/American Aerospace company.
Claimed by Rocket Lab (you know, the actual company that launched it) to be a New Zealand launch.

Until you come up with some verifiable statements, attributable to official aerospace organisations, that New Zealand is NOT the 11th country in the world to launch a satellite into orbit, your claims will not stand up, and I will not be convinced.

NOTE: No registry entries or inferred claims. Only an actual challenge to Rocket Lab's claim are acceptable.  Currently, you are the only person on the planet actively challenging this claim.

ETA:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-lockheed-rocketlab/lockheed-invests-in-rocket-labs-u-s-unit-to-keep-pace-with-innovation-idUSKBN0LY21Y20150302

Quote
"Lockheed invests in Rocket Lab's U.S. unit to keep pace with innovation"
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Lockheed Martin Corp said on Monday it had made a strategic investment in the U.S. unit of New Zealand’s Rocket Lab, which is building a carbon-composite rocket, the Electron, to launch small satellites into orbit for less than $5 million.

Ned Allen, Lockheed’s chief scientist, said Lockheed’s investment in the New Zealand startup was aimed at helping Lockheed keep pace with innovation across the industry.

I have quite  a number of similar pages. Would you like me to link them?
Title: Re: "Electron" Rocket makes New Zealand the 11th country to join the space club
Post by: gwiz on February 28, 2018, 10:09:44 AM
Yes, a US owned launch vehicle...
That is the point I've been making all along.  I'm not disputing the New Zealand input, just arguing who owns it and gets to put their flag on it.
Title: Re: "Electron" Rocket makes New Zealand the 11th country to join the space club
Post by: smartcooky on February 28, 2018, 10:26:24 PM
Yes, a US owned launch vehicle...
That is the point I've been making all along.  I'm not disputing the New Zealand input, just arguing who owns it and gets to put their flag on it.

Well guess what... both flags are on the rocket, so by your criteria, that counts as a launch by both countries.. and that still makes NZ the 11th country to launch a rocket with a payload to orbit.

The established and accepted facts are still in my corner... the burden of proof is yours.
Title: Re: "Electron" Rocket makes New Zealand the 11th country to join the space club
Post by: gwiz on March 03, 2018, 08:19:54 AM
Well guess what... both flags are on the rocket...
Interesting, where's the NZ one?
Title: Re: "Electron" Rocket makes New Zealand the 11th country to join the space club
Post by: smartcooky on March 04, 2018, 04:51:56 AM
Well guess what... both flags are on the rocket...
Interesting, where's the NZ one?


(https://www.dropbox.com/s/a9d9pc9rcra94q4/RLNZ01.jpg?raw=1)

(https://www.dropbox.com/s/06a41lz0ypwywvq/RLNZ03.jpg?raw=1)

(https://www.dropbox.com/s/1rbszc3e6xs21ay/RLNZ-02.jpg?raw=1)
Note: this one also has Rocket Lab's website www.rocketlab.co.nz  (.co.nz is a NZ domain). Try going to www.rocketlab.com and see where you end up (yes, the USA partner is at rocketlabusa.com)

Now here is an interesting one

(https://www.dropbox.com/s/3wyrvtoygmsrzxz/RLNZ04.jpg?raw=1)
These are early testing rockets, and, oh no, they have New Zealand National Flags on them... oops. I asked them why they don't use the New Zealand National Flag, and the answer was that could if they wanted to, but they consider the Silver Fern Emblem to be a better recognised symbol of New Zealand globally.

Now this pretty much cuts the legs out from under your argument, because they could use the New Zealand flag if they wanted to, but they choose not to.

As a Kiwi, I find it very easy to both understand and agree with that decision. You show that Silver Fern Flag anywhere in the world and most people will associate it with New Zealand. Show them a New Zealand Flag, and they think its Australian.
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/ia0j0i6vt67lpvb/Australian-vs-New-Zealand-flag-1024x1024.jpg?raw=1)

We've even had Kiwis win medals at international sports events where the organisers hoisted the Aussie flag instead. Not hard to see why kiwis prefer the Silver Fern. In any case, I'm happy to see any flag representing this country that doesn't have that effing Union Jack in the corner.
Title: Re: "Electron" Rocket makes New Zealand the 11th country to join the space club
Post by: smartcooky on March 04, 2018, 05:06:12 AM
Now here is an interesting aside. Technically, they should not be putting the US flag on Electron (or any other rocket for that matter) because it violates the USC (The Code of Laws of the United States of America). Why?  Well, I'll let the USC speak for itself.

Quote
USC176 (i)  The flag should never be used for advertising purposes in any manner whatsoever. It should not be embroidered on such articles as cushions or handkerchiefs and the like, printed or otherwise impressed on paper napkins or boxes or anything that is designed for temporary use and discard. Advertising signs should not be fastened to a staff or halyard from which the flag is flown.

Aren't rocket stages "designed for temporary use and discard"?
Title: Re: "Electron" Rocket makes New Zealand the 11th country to join the space club
Post by: gwiz on March 04, 2018, 11:41:07 AM
Aren't rocket stages "designed for temporary use and discard"?
Not SpaceX's.

NASA have been putting the US national flag on launch vehicles since the 1960s, so I guess the government doesn't have any problems with it.

I see the NZ flag on the early test rockets, but not on the Electron.  I take that as an indication of when the company became a US one.  I appreciate that your national flag isn't instantly recognizable and you'd like to change it to the silver fern, but as far as I can see, this has yet to happen.
Title: Re: "Electron" Rocket makes New Zealand the 11th country to join the space club
Post by: smartcooky on March 04, 2018, 01:45:53 PM
I see the NZ flag on the early test rockets, but not on the Electron.  I take that as an indication of when the company became a US one.

Then you take it wrong. I'll quote the bit you intentionally ignored form my previous post

Quote
"I asked them why they don't use the New Zealand National Flag, and the answer was that could if they wanted to, but they consider the Silver Fern Emblem to be a better recognised symbol of New Zealand globally."

I appreciate that your national flag isn't instantly recognizable and you'd like to change it to the silver fern, but as far as I can see, this has yet to happen.

Again, you have completely ignored the facts I have posted earlier in this thread. If you knew anything at all about New Zealand you would know that the Silver Fern IS the symbol of New Zealand, internationally recognised in all affairs except those of government. Trade, sport, retail and manufacturing all use the Silver Fern and only the Silver Fern. It is the officially registered trademark of NZ

http://www.fernmark.nzstory.govt.nz/silver-fern
(NOTE: this is a NZ government website)

New Zealand Companies use the Silver Fern in exactly the same way that American companies use the Stars & Stripes. While private companies can use the NZ flag, most choose to use the fern instead.  What you are arguing is that if they were to choose to use the NZ Flag, you would be happy to acknowledge that you are wrong, but because they choose to use the internationally recognised Silver Fern instead, you won't. This sounds awfully like Conspiracy Theory 101 to me... if something does fit your personal criteria, you hand-wave it away.

Once again, the established and accepted facts are still in my corner... the burden of proof is still  yours.
Title: Re: "Electron" Rocket makes New Zealand the 11th country to join the space club
Post by: Obviousman on March 04, 2018, 03:13:54 PM
Why do they use .govt instead of .gov?

And as a proud Australian, I fully understand why you prefer the fern.
Title: Re: "Electron" Rocket makes New Zealand the 11th country to join the space club
Post by: smartcooky on March 05, 2018, 05:23:18 AM
Why do they use .govt instead of .gov?

The .gov domain is exclusively the US government. I don't know why they use .govt.nz and not .gov.nz

I could ask same about Australia. Why do you use com.au and not .co.au?

And as a proud Australian, I fully understand why you prefer the fern.

Cheers, but it's not just my preference. its actually official. The fern is a registered trademark. No-one else can use it without infringing on that trademark.

More importantly, as I have pointed out several times to gwiz (and he wilfully refuses to understand) we use the Silver Fern in exactly the same way that American private companies use the Stars and Stripes, while our our Government uses the NZ flag in the same way the US Government uses the US flag.

The thing that gwiz doesn't seem to get, is that the US Government uses the same flag that private American companies use as an emblem, while in NZ the government uses the NZ Flag and private companies use the Silver Fern. The context in which RocketLab puts the Stars and Stripes on the Electron rocket is exactly the same as the context in which they put the Silver Fern on the rocket.

This is really not confusing (several countries do something similar - Switzerland uses a stylized Crossbow, Canada uses just the red Maple Leaf, South Africa uses Protea, which is slowly replacing the Springbok due to the latter's racial connotations) but this is too hard for Brits to understand... apparently. 
Title: Re: "Electron" Rocket makes New Zealand the 11th country to join the space club
Post by: gwiz on March 05, 2018, 07:06:57 AM
... the burden of proof is still  yours.
You've already admitted my main point:
Yes, a US owned launch vehicle...
Title: Re: "Electron" Rocket makes New Zealand the 11th country to join the space club
Post by: smartcooky on March 05, 2018, 02:07:23 PM
... the burden of proof is still  yours.
You've already admitted my main point:
Yes, a US owned launch vehicle...

So, you've moved the goalposts from mission patch (when you were shown to be wrong) to flag, then moved them again (when you were shown to be wrong) to this; cherry picking a quote entirely out of context. For the record the whole quote was...

Quote
Yes, a US owned launch vehicle...
Conceived in New Zealand by the New Zealander who started Rocket Lab in New Zealand
Designed in New Zealand by New Zealand aerospace engineers
Built in New Zealand by New Zealand engineers
Supported by the New Zealand government
Launched from New Zealand at a site owned by a New Zealand/American Aerospace company.
Claimed by Rocket Lab (you know, the actual company that launched it) to be a New Zealand launch.

And of top of that, you still wilfully refuse to understand facts. That's another three actions from the CT playbook.

I repeat. The internationally accepted facts, confirmed by the actual company that launched the the vehicle, is that this was a New Zealand launch. The facts are in my corner, the burden of proof is yours. Are you sure to still want to carry on being handed your arse?

Title: Re: "Electron" Rocket makes New Zealand the 11th country to join the space club
Post by: gwiz on March 06, 2018, 12:09:27 PM
So, you've moved the goalposts from mission patch (when you were shown to be wrong) to flag, then moved them again (when you were shown to be wrong) to this...
Go back to the first page of this thread and see where I started.  What determines the country of launch?  Location of launch site or ownership of the vehicle?  We've been around a lot of side-issues since then, but my goalposts remain in place.
Title: Re: "Electron" Rocket makes New Zealand the 11th country to join the space club
Post by: smartcooky on March 06, 2018, 02:34:06 PM
go back to the first page of this thread and see where I started.  What determines the country of launch?  Location of launch site or ownership of the vehicle?  We've been around a lot of side-issues since then, but my goalposts remain in place.

In Government space (e.g. NASA) the government of the country owns the vehicle. In private space, the private company owns the launch vehicle

RockletLab is a combined New Zealand and USA owned company, registered both in New Zealand and the USA. Most importantly, it is in the NZ Companies Register as a New Zealand company, NOT as a an ASIC or non-ASIC company.

There are two types of overseas companies that are allowed to register in New Zealand:
ASIC (Australian Securities and Investments Commission) – which is the term used for Australian companies
NON-ASIC – which captures Companies from the rest of the world.

Companies such as Lockheed, General Electric etc are ASIC registered (note the entity type)

http://app.companiesoffice.govt.nz/co/1121666

http://app.companiesoffice.govt.nz/co/382905

RocketLab is registered as a New Zealand company, ergo, it is a New Zealand company

http://app.companiesoffice.govt.nz/co/1835428
 
Therefore the launch is both a New Zealand launch and an American launch. Any way you slice it, that makes New Zealand the eleventh country in the world to put a satellite into orbit.

While I agreed with you that Electron is a US launch vehicle, I made it clear that I did not accept that it is exclusively a US launch vehicle (you tried to make it appear I did by cherry picking my post). I went on to argue that it is also a New Zealand launch vehicle. Every time you moved the goalposts, I countered your move with facts and evidence; my assertions are all supported with facts and evidence, some of those facts were determined by asking the actual people involved. Your assertions are totally unsupported. IMO you have simply moved the goalpost back to where they were. You may think that your goalposts are still in place, but they are missing the uprights!
Title: Re: "Electron" Rocket makes New Zealand the 11th country to join the space club
Post by: Obviousman on March 06, 2018, 07:21:12 PM
The .govt seems to be in the minority. .gov is used by Australia:

e.g. http://www.defence.gov.au

By the UK:

e.g. http://www.gateway.gov.uk

By Singapore:

e.g. http://www.mindef.gov.sg

It's like the co / com thing. I don't know which is the "standard" one and which is the "alternative" one... if there are even such beasts.

*sigh* I'm sooo confused!

Title: Re: "Electron" Rocket makes New Zealand the 11th country to join the space club
Post by: gwiz on March 07, 2018, 07:21:03 AM
While I agreed with you that Electron is a US launch vehicle, I made it clear that I did not accept that it is exclusively a US launch vehicle (you tried to make it appear I did by cherry picking my post).
The first time I used your quote (Feb 28th) I acknowledged the NZ input to the project.

We are clearly not going to agree on this, but if you allow for multiple countries being involved, you might be dropping New Zealand down from 11th on the list.  Multiple country involvement gives plenty of scope for argument about the inclusion of Australia, Italy, Ukraine and South Korea, not to mention all the participants in multi-national efforts like ESA and Sea Launch.
Title: Re: "Electron" Rocket makes New Zealand the 11th country to join the space club
Post by: smartcooky on March 07, 2018, 02:02:27 PM
While I agreed with you that Electron is a US launch vehicle, I made it clear that I did not accept that it is exclusively a US launch vehicle (you tried to make it appear I did by cherry picking my post).
The first time I used your quote (Feb 28th) I acknowledged the NZ input to the project.

We are clearly not going to agree on this, but if you allow for multiple countries being involved, you might be dropping New Zealand down from 11th on the list.  Multiple country involvement gives plenty of scope for argument about the inclusion of Australia, Italy, Ukraine and South Korea, not to mention all the participants in multi-national efforts like ESA and Sea Launch.

I don't much care whether we agree or not. I know I'm right; the reality is that NZ is the 11th country to launch to orbit is an accepted fact. Even Rocket Lab (a company you claim is American) is saying so. That claim is not being challenged by anyone except you, and you have singularly failed to prove your claim. 
Title: Re: "Electron" Rocket makes New Zealand the 11th country to join the space club
Post by: Geordie on March 09, 2018, 06:46:42 AM
The .govt seems to be in the minority. .gov is used by Australia:

e.g. http://www.defence.gov.au

By the UK:

e.g. http://www.gateway.gov.uk

By Singapore:

e.g. http://www.mindef.gov.sg

It's like the co / com thing. I don't know which is the "standard" one and which is the "alternative" one... if there are even such beasts.

*sigh* I'm sooo confused!
We are in the process of switching from gc.ca (Gouvernement du Canada etc.) to canada.ca.  E.g. https://www.canada.ca/en/fisheries-oceans.html was http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/index-eng.htm .

As far as co / com goes I would say they're both alternatives, with one having appeared earlier.